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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => General Sunni-Shia => Topic started by: Sheriff.shatterz on July 10, 2016, 09:56:20 AM

Title: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: Sheriff.shatterz on July 10, 2016, 09:56:20 AM
*Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*

The Shia place a piece of  clay, known as *“Turbah,”* on the ground so that their forehead touches the clay when they prostrate themselves in prayer. The Turbahs are made out of the clay from the shrines of Imams or saints. Often times, the Turbah is made from the clay of Imam Hussain’s shrine. The Shia Ulema have declared that no Turbah has a higher sacredness than a Turbah made from Imam Hussain’s shrine, not even the stone from the Holy Ka’abah.

By praying to clay made from the shrines of their Imams and saints, the Shia are practising a *polythiestic and paganistic* act of *grave-worshipping;* they are quite literally making Sajood (prostration) to the Imams or saints. Indeed, praying to the Turbah of these Imams and saints is *Bidah* (evil innovation) and *Shirk;* it is not much different than *idol worshipping.* What is the difference between the idol that Hindus do Sujood to and the Turbah that the Shia do Sujood to? Both are considered Waseelah to bring them closer to God, and both of them are prostrated to.

*Shi’ism is rooted in Shirk; the Shia have allowed their so-called love for the Imams translate into polythiestic adoration*
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: Husayn on July 10, 2016, 11:19:23 AM
You'll often find that these turbahs have the names of their 12 Imams written on them as well.

(http://mecollectibles.com/8621-thickbox_default/iraq-islam-shia-namaz-karbala-mohr-turbah-with-imam-husain-as-holy-shrine-12-imams-holy-names-earth-soil-clay-tablet.jpg)
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: Husayn on July 10, 2016, 12:16:03 PM
Infact the whole issue of prostration on a turbah is a great example of the deviancy of the Twelver sect.

They are adamant that this is proven by Sunni ahadith.

They have raised this issue to the level of 'adeedah. To that we simply say:

If you could prove this in Sunni ahadith, then you are free to adopt this practice as a matter of fiqh and sunnah. Come, establish another madhhab and adopt this as a ruling.

It is that simple for us.

Now, we reject their evidences simply because they are based on deviant interpretations.

They cite this hadith as proof:

Quote
Narrated Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri:

I saw Allah's Messenger (saws) prostrating in mud and water and saw the mark of mud on his forehead.

Sahih al-Bukhari Vol. 1, Book 12, Hadith 798

Ahlul Sunnah understanding:


Twelver interpretation:


See how deviant this interpretation is - compared with the straight forward understanding of Ahlul Sunnah?

Now, they are not content with leaving it at this. They insist on excelling in deviancy.

Their ahadith state:

Quote
من لا يحضره الفقيه

باب ما يسجد عليه وما لا يسجد عليه

السجود على طين قبر الحسين عليه السلام ينور إلى الارض السابعة(2) "
 
Man la yahrudhul faqih

Door of what may be prostrated on and what may not be prostrated on

Hadith 829

"Sadiq (as): Prostration on the clay from the grave of al-Husayn (as) radiates light to the seventh earth."

http://www.mezan.net/books/manlayahdraho/fakeeh1/maktaba/kotob/hadith/fakeeh1/html/ara/books/faqih/faqih-1/a42.html

Not even the grave of the Prophet (saws), but the grave of al-Husayn (ra)!

This is simply clear cut bid'a (innovation). When did the Prophet (saws) ever mention this? When did he ever even perform this action?

And what's more - as above, they imprint these tablets with the names of their Imams.

They have gone from simple bid'a and are now approaching pure shirk.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: learning boy on July 11, 2016, 01:04:06 AM
Salam friends,

Why do we call Shii'tes mushrikeen for praying on a piece of stone, but no one bats an eye when we all pray to a big cube rock with a black cloth on it? They both signify the same thing.

The turba is a stone, it is only a stone, and it will always be a stone. What shi'ites tend to do however is they choose the best type of soil (turab) , that being the plains and ground of which the prophet and the ahlebayt used to walk on. Although that does not seem horrible, what is deemed inappropriete is writing names and ascribing names to them. This is why you will see in many shi'ite mosques and households that they scratch out all types of words and symbols on a Turbat. It is only a stone, nothing else to it.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: muslim720 on July 11, 2016, 06:11:34 PM
Forget the sajdah to Imams [ra] bit, when they quote our narrations in favor of prostrating on soil, I ask them if they know the points of sajdah.  There are 7.  One of those 7 points is the face (nose plus forehead).  Unless the turbah is by the size of a small plate, the Shias end up touching the turbah with their forehead only.  So out of the 7 points of sajdah, they only fulfill 1 (actually half...coz only their foreheads come in contact with the turbah, not nose)!

The remaining six points - palms, kneecaps and toes - come in contact with the prayer rug which, for the most part, is made of cotton.  Just like paper is derived from trees, and Shias consider it permissible to prostrate on paper, cotton is grown on trees.  So where is the issue?

After I explain it like that, I bring Shias back to the main point: they do not want to admit it but they really want to prostrate on the soil of Karbala because it is holier to them than any other soil.  Considering that there is no such declaration in Islam, this becomes bid'a!
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: learning boy on July 11, 2016, 11:24:47 PM
Hello muslim720,

as per reference from asktheshiekh.com, we have this question and exerpt :
_________________________________________________________________________________
1. TheEarth is a Place of Prostration

There is a narration narrated in Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari, as well as the Shia books, where the Prophet (pbuh) says:

“The earth is made for me as place of prostration and purification.”

(Bukhari1:209, Muslim 1:371, Wasa’elu-Shi’a 3:423)

From this narration, we understand that when we prostrate, it should be on ‘earth’ or something directly from the earth. This includes soil, sand, pebbles and minerals (except gold and silver). It also includes paper and leaves from trees because they grow from the earth. (Tissue is probably the last option if nothing else is available).

The other condition is that the thing we pray on must not be wearable or edible. Therefore, we cannot pray on leaves from plants which are edible or from which clothes can be made (e.g. cotton).

Imam al-Sadiq (as) says:

“Prostration is only allowed on earth or things that are from the earth, except those things which can be worn or consumed”. (Wasailul Shia, 3:591)

2. Why we do not pray on Carpet?

We do not pray on carpet because it is not earth and is not made from earth. The above narration says that we should pray on the earth, and therefore carpet is no something we can pray on. This is confirmed by other narrations. Abu Said al-Khudri narrates about the Prophet:

“We were in the mosque and the roof of the mosque was made of date palm branches so that we could not see up into the sky. One day it rained heavily. The Prophet (pbuh) led the prayer with us, so much so that I saw the marks of the mud on the forehead of the Prophet (pbuh…” (Bukhari, 2:386)

A’isha narrates:

“The Prophet (pbuh) never placed anything between his forehead and the earth…”

(Mosnad Imam Ahmad, 6:58)

At the time of the Prophet, carpets did exist and if the Prophet (pbuh) wished, he could have prayed on a carpet or laid the mosque’s floor with carpet. However, this never happened.


3. Narrations about the Straw Mat

We also have many narrations from Sunni sources that the Prophet (pbuh) would have a small straw square that he would prostrate on. It seems that when it was too hot to place one’s forehead on the soil, the Prophet would use a straw mat to prostrate on. As this is made from trees, it is considered a product of the earth.

Um Salama: ‘The Prophet would pray on a small strawmat’.

Anas: ‘The Prophet would pray on a straw mat’.

(Bukhari, 1:231)

Therefore, it is at least a precaution to avoid praying on carpet as the Prophet (pbuh) did not ever do this. Imam al-Sadiq (as) says:

“I prefer that he prostrates on the earth. The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) used to like to place his forehead on the earth. I like for you what the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) used to like.”

(WasailulShia)

______________________________________________________________________________

This should be able to give you sufficient reason for allowing the prayer on a Turbah and why Shi'ite belief negates the allowing of praying on things like prayer mats, rugs, etc.

As for my own side note, you say

Forget the sajdah to Imams [ra] bit, when they quote our narrations in favor of prostrating on soil, I ask them if they know the points of sajdah.  There are 7.  One of those 7 points is the face (nose plus forehead).  Unless the turbah is by the size of a small plate, the Shias end up touching the turbah with their forehead only.  So out of the 7 points of sajdah, they only fulfill 1 (actually half...coz only their foreheads come in contact with the turbah, not nose)!

The remaining six points - palms, kneecaps and toes - come in contact with the prayer rug which, for the most part, is made of cotton.  Just like paper is derived from trees, and Shias consider it permissible to prostrate on paper, cotton is grown on trees.  So where is the issue?


I am sure you do not seriously consider the nose and the forehead the same point? What is the reasoning behind this? This is the first time I heard a sunni actually say that the touching of the nose is actually PART of the prayer. If we say this, then we would actually have 18 places of contact, rather then only 7; this is if you count the fingers on the hand part of contact? If you do not count the fingers on your hand as separate parts, why do we consider the forehead and nose the same part ?

Narrated Ibn `Abbas: The Prophet(saw) said, “I have been ordered to prostrate on seven bones i.e. on the forehead along with the tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose, both hands, both knees and the toes of both feet and not to gather the clothes or the hair.”(Sahih al-Bukhari #812)

The nose does not have a bone at it's tip? It is cartilage, a part of flesh that can be contorted. It has no contact with bone. Not even that, the lower and middle part of the nose is cartilage as well! See this brother http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/broken-nose/multimedia/locations-of-the-nasal-bone-and-cartilage/img-20007155

I can only assume the part ' tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose' in the bukhari narration is inconsistent, as two very prominent sunni madthabs disagree with it as well:

( Ash-Shawkānī said: ‘‘Ulamah differed regarding the obligation of prostrating oneself on the seven bones: Al-’Itratu and Ash-Shāfi‘ī in one of his opinions held that it is an obligation that one prostrates oneself on the seven bones. Abū Hanifah and Ash-Shāfi‘ī later on and other Fuqahā’ held that the obligation is to prostrate oneself on one’s forehead only.)

 But the only problem is that the only bone in your nose is too high up to touch in prostration. The only possibility with that is if you squished your entire face to the ground, which is very uncomfortable( I tried lol )  and we do not see that happening, even with sunni brothers.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: muslim720 on July 12, 2016, 01:49:51 PM

Narrated Ibn `Abbas: The Prophet(saw) said, “I have been ordered to prostrate on seven bones i.e. on the forehead along with the tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose, both hands, both knees and the toes of both feet and not to gather the clothes or the hair.”(Sahih al-Bukhari #812)

The nose does not have a bone at it's tip? It is cartilage, a part of flesh that can be contorted. It has no contact with bone. Not even that, the lower and middle part of the nose is cartilage as well! See this brother http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/broken-nose/multimedia/locations-of-the-nasal-bone-and-cartilage/img-20007155

I can only assume the part ' tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose' in the bukhari narration is inconsistent, as two very prominent sunni madthabs disagree with it as well:

( Ash-Shawkānī said: ‘‘Ulamah differed regarding the obligation of prostrating oneself on the seven bones: Al-’Itratu and Ash-Shāfi‘ī in one of his opinions held that it is an obligation that one prostrates oneself on the seven bones. Abū Hanifah and Ash-Shāfi‘ī later on and other Fuqahā’ held that the obligation is to prostrate oneself on one’s forehead only.)

Your entire post is a direct reflection of ShiaPen's article so to save myself time and hassle, I will share with you the response to that article.

https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/12/10/sunni-answers-to-shiapen-prostrating-on-turbah/

I, however, would like to add that you are right in pointing out that nose is cartilage which is why the Prophet [saw] said, "....on the forehead along with the tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose...."  He [saw] mentioned the bone (forehead) and added the nose to the equation.  Notice how he [saw] said seven bones; if you count nose as a "bone", you have eight.  Therefore, he [saw] was not referring to nose as "bone" and hence, it is clear that there are "seven bones" that partake in sajdah.  The tip of the nose is added to the seven bones to complete our sajdah.

Any scholar can put it whichever way they want but there is not a man worth the name whose words we hold in higher regards than the words and practices of the Prophet [saw].....something not many of our Shia brothers can boast!
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: ShiaMan on July 12, 2016, 07:29:13 PM
have you noticed that we shia pray directly on marble without the need for turbah?

The point is not soil but any natural occurring thing such as leaf, stone (natural like marble; not porcelain for example), brick, and yes clay too.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 13, 2016, 01:12:30 AM

Narrated Ibn `Abbas: The Prophet(saw) said, “I have been ordered to prostrate on seven bones i.e. on the forehead along with the tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose, both hands, both knees and the toes of both feet and not to gather the clothes or the hair.”(Sahih al-Bukhari #812)

The nose does not have a bone at it's tip? It is cartilage, a part of flesh that can be contorted. It has no contact with bone. Not even that, the lower and middle part of the nose is cartilage as well! See this brother http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/broken-nose/multimedia/locations-of-the-nasal-bone-and-cartilage/img-20007155

I can only assume the part ' tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose' in the bukhari narration is inconsistent, as two very prominent sunni madthabs disagree with it as well:

( Ash-Shawkānī said: ‘‘Ulamah differed regarding the obligation of prostrating oneself on the seven bones: Al-’Itratu and Ash-Shāfi‘ī in one of his opinions held that it is an obligation that one prostrates oneself on the seven bones. Abū Hanifah and Ash-Shāfi‘ī later on and other Fuqahā’ held that the obligation is to prostrate oneself on one’s forehead only.)

Your entire post is a direct reflection of ShiaPen's article so to save myself time and hassle, I will share with you the response to that article.

https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/12/10/sunni-answers-to-shiapen-prostrating-on-turbah/

I, however, would like to add that you are right in pointing out that nose is cartilage which is why the Prophet [saw] said, "....on the forehead along with the tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose...."  He [saw] mentioned the bone (forehead) and added the nose to the equation.  Notice how he [saw] said seven bones; if you count nose as a "bone", you have eight.  Therefore, he [saw] was not referring to nose as "bone" and hence, it is clear that there are "seven bones" that partake in sajdah.  The tip of the nose is added to the seven bones to complete our sajdah.

Any scholar can put it whichever way they want but there is not a man worth the name whose words we hold in higher regards than the words and practices of the Prophet [saw].....something not many of our Shia brothers can boast!

Indeed the link you provided, does refute all the arguments raised by learning boy. Infact I find him halfquoting some texts from the same article.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: ShiaMan on July 13, 2016, 03:42:26 AM

Narrated Ibn `Abbas: The Prophet(saw) said, “I have been ordered to prostrate on seven bones i.e. on the forehead along with the tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose, both hands, both knees and the toes of both feet and not to gather the clothes or the hair.”(Sahih al-Bukhari #812)

The nose does not have a bone at it's tip? It is cartilage, a part of flesh that can be contorted. It has no contact with bone. Not even that, the lower and middle part of the nose is cartilage as well! See this brother http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/broken-nose/multimedia/locations-of-the-nasal-bone-and-cartilage/img-20007155

I can only assume the part ' tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose' in the bukhari narration is inconsistent, as two very prominent sunni madthabs disagree with it as well:

( Ash-Shawkānī said: ‘‘Ulamah differed regarding the obligation of prostrating oneself on the seven bones: Al-’Itratu and Ash-Shāfi‘ī in one of his opinions held that it is an obligation that one prostrates oneself on the seven bones. Abū Hanifah and Ash-Shāfi‘ī later on and other Fuqahā’ held that the obligation is to prostrate oneself on one’s forehead only.)

Your entire post is a direct reflection of ShiaPen's article so to save myself time and hassle, I will share with you the response to that article.

https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/12/10/sunni-answers-to-shiapen-prostrating-on-turbah/

I, however, would like to add that you are right in pointing out that nose is cartilage which is why the Prophet [saw] said, "....on the forehead along with the tip of the nose and the Prophet pointed towards his nose...."  He [saw] mentioned the bone (forehead) and added the nose to the equation.  Notice how he [saw] said seven bones; if you count nose as a "bone", you have eight.  Therefore, he [saw] was not referring to nose as "bone" and hence, it is clear that there are "seven bones" that partake in sajdah.  The tip of the nose is added to the seven bones to complete our sajdah.

Any scholar can put it whichever way they want but there is not a man worth the name whose words we hold in higher regards than the words and practices of the Prophet [saw].....something not many of our Shia brothers can boast!

Indeed the link you provided, does refute all the arguments raised by learning boy. Infact I find him halfquoting some texts from the same article.

Is a Saniah really a sajjad unless the forehead is touching the ground? There is no ruling about nose - either way.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: muslim720 on July 13, 2016, 11:52:35 AM
have you noticed that we shia pray directly on marble without the need for turbah?

The point is not soil but any natural occurring thing such as leaf, stone (natural like marble; not porcelain for example), brick, and yes clay too.

Have you not read my other posts stating that I frequent Shia mosques?  So I know what you are telling me.  But I also know that there is a lot of stress placed on the soil of Karbala, more than the soil of Mecca, Madina or anywhere else.  In your mosques, I never see anyone praying on marbles.  It is always "soil" in the form of turbah from Karbala.  Shias substitute it with paper or leaf when they forget their turbah or do not have access to one so it is a backup plan, not the go-to option.

But let me ask you this.  How come you forgot to add cotton to your list?  Paper does not grow on trees; it is processed.  But cotton grows on trees and what exceptions, if any, would you have against prayer rug made of cotton?

Finally, you and our other Shia brother here are so occupied with the nose and forehead that you are forgetting the other remaining six "bones".  When you make sajdah, your palms make contact with the prayer rug, your knees are covered by your clothing and your toes are on the prayer rug too.  Even if I concede the nose part, you are only fulfilling one "bone" (the forehead) coming in contact with soil.

Either have 7 turbahs - stand on two, two for your knees, another two for your palms and one for your face - or pray on bare ground to fulfill the requirements of sajdah.  See how ridiculous that sounds?  Are you still wondering why Sunnis (who know the basics of Islam) laugh at your practices and do not take you all seriously?
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: Husayn on July 13, 2016, 12:43:33 PM
The Shi'a stand on a carpet, place a stone on it, touch their heads to it, and then state "we are praying on earth".

It's almost an act of self-mockery.

Quote
This should be able to give you sufficient reason for allowing the prayer on a Turbah and why Shi'ite belief negates the allowing of praying on things like prayer mats, rugs, etc.

See what happens when you blindly C&P.

You guys do indeed pray on carpets and rugs. Your mosques are all carpeted.

If you were serious about praying on the earth your mosques would all be filled with dirt, not nice rugs.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: ShiaMan on July 13, 2016, 04:24:23 PM

Have you not read my other posts stating that I frequent Shia mosques?  So I know what you are telling me.  But I also know that there is a lot of stress placed on the soil of Karbala, more than the soil of Mecca, Madina or anywhere else.  In your mosques, I never see anyone praying on marbles.  It is always "soil" in the form of turbah from Karbala.  Shias substitute it with paper or leaf when they forget their turbah or do not have access to one so it is a backup plan, not the go-to option.

But let me ask you this.  How come you forgot to add cotton to your list?  Paper does not grow on trees; it is processed.  But cotton grows on trees and what exceptions, if any, would you have against prayer rug made of cotton?

Finally, you and our other Shia brother here are so occupied with the nose and forehead that you are forgetting the other remaining six "bones".  When you make sajdah, your palms make contact with the prayer rug, your knees are covered by your clothing and your toes are on the prayer rug too.  Even if I concede the nose part, you are only fulfilling one "bone" (the forehead) coming in contact with soil.

Either have 7 turbahs - stand on two, two for your knees, another two for your palms and one for your face - or pray on bare ground to fulfill the requirements of sajdah.  See how ridiculous that sounds?  Are you still wondering why Sunnis (who know the basics of Islam) laugh at your practices and do not take you all seriously?

Easy there tiger.

we are in agreement that nose is irrelevant to the discussion.

Back to my question - if the 6 points are touching the ground and not the forehead, then am I in sajdah? No! The forehead is the most essential part of the sajdah and hence it is required to touch a naturally occurring thing.

Next anything which is clothing or can be part of clothing is also not permissible or should i say preferable such as cotton, silk, etc.

Now, if you insist that just having 6 points touching the ground is enough for sajdah, then the shias are completely wrong and I will stop praying on the turbah immediately.

But if you have common sense and agree that touching the forehead to the ground is the most essential part of the sajdah, then I am sorry to say you lack in minimalist Islamic concepts.


Read above. perhaps in your hatred for the shia, you have lost all common sense there is. A sajdah is not a sajdah unless the forehead touches the ground.
The Shi'a stand on a carpet, place a stone on it, touch their heads to it, and then state "we are praying on earth".

It's almost an act of self-mockery.

Quote
This should be able to give you sufficient reason for allowing the prayer on a Turbah and why Shi'ite belief negates the allowing of praying on things like prayer mats, rugs, etc.

See what happens when you blindly C&P.

You guys do indeed pray on carpets and rugs. Your mosques are all carpeted.

If you were serious about praying on the earth your mosques would all be filled with dirt, not nice rugs.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: muslim720 on July 13, 2016, 05:44:05 PM
we are in agreement that nose is irrelevant to the discussion.

There is a difference between agreeing and conceding.  I conceded the nose part to prove that your practice still falls short of what you preach.

Quote
Back to my question - if the 6 points are touching the ground and not the forehead, then am I in sajdah? No! The forehead is the most essential part of the sajdah and hence it is required to touch a naturally occurring thing.

Why are Shias so good in logical fallacies?  Even if I agree that the forehead is the most essential part of sajdah - though the Prophet [saw] mentioned seven "bones" and added the nose to the equation and the seven points of sajdah are also accepted by Shias - how do you go from "forehead is the most essential part of the sajdah" to "hence it is required to touch a naturally occurring thing"?

You have not proven that forehead is the most essential part and you are extrapolating your misguidance to making a naturally occurring thing required for sajdah.

To answer your question, you can have your forehead, palms, knees and toes on the ground and if your nose is dangling in the air - like it happens with Shias when they use turbah (unless the turbah is by the size of a small plate which it almost never is) - your sajdah is invalid.  If your forehead and nose, palms, knees and one toe touches the ground and you lift one of your toes, your sajdah is invalid. 

I hope I clarified it for you.

Quote
Next anything which is clothing or can be part of clothing is also not permissible or should i say preferable such as cotton, silk, etc.

Why?  Does cotton not grow on trees?  How can your madhhab accept paper (which is processed) for sajdah but not cotton?  And you have the nerve to doubt my common sense.

Quote
Now, if you insist that just having 6 points touching the ground is enough for sajdah, then the shias are completely wrong and I will stop praying on the turbah immediately.

The Prophet [saw] mentioned seven "bones" along with the nose in order for your sajdah to be valid.  I am surprised that you are willing to listen to me if I insist but you have been disobeying the Prophet [saw] and lying in his name for the last 14-plus centuries.

Quote
But if you have common sense and agree that touching the forehead to the ground is the most essential part of the sajdah, then I am sorry to say you lack in minimalist Islamic concepts.

Please educate yourself with common factors between both Shias and Sunnis.  The "seven bones" is a common denominator.  But it is funny that you are willing to bring your forehead in contact with soil while you leave your nose hanging the remaining "six bones" come in contact with carpet or prayer rug.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: ShiaMan on July 13, 2016, 05:57:23 PM
we are in agreement that nose is irrelevant to the discussion.

There is a difference between agreeing and conceding.  I conceded the nose part to prove that your practice still falls short of what you preach.

Quote
Back to my question - if the 6 points are touching the ground and not the forehead, then am I in sajdah? No! The forehead is the most essential part of the sajdah and hence it is required to touch a naturally occurring thing.

Why are Shias so good in logical fallacies?  Even if I agree that the forehead is the most essential part of sajdah - though the Prophet [saw] mentioned seven "bones" and added the nose to the equation and the seven points of sajdah are also accepted by Shias - how do you go from "forehead is the most essential part of the sajdah" to "hence it is required to touch a naturally occurring thing"?

You have not proven that forehead is the most essential part and you are extrapolating your misguidance to making a naturally occurring thing required for sajdah.

To answer your question, you can have your forehead, palms, knees and toes on the ground and if your nose is dangling in the air - like it happens with Shias when they use turbah (unless the turbah is by the size of a small plate which it almost never is) - your sajdah is invalid.  If your forehead and nose, palms, knees and one toe touches the ground and you lift one of your toes, your sajdah is invalid. 

I hope I clarified it for you.

Quote
Next anything which is clothing or can be part of clothing is also not permissible or should i say preferable such as cotton, silk, etc.

Why?  Does cotton not grow on trees?  How can your madhhab accept paper (which is processed) for sajdah but not cotton?  And you have the nerve to doubt my common sense.

Quote
Now, if you insist that just having 6 points touching the ground is enough for sajdah, then the shias are completely wrong and I will stop praying on the turbah immediately.

The Prophet [saw] mentioned seven "bones" along with the nose in order for your sajdah to be valid.  I am surprised that you are willing to listen to me if I insist but you have been disobeying the Prophet [saw] and lying in his name for the last 14-plus centuries.

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But if you have common sense and agree that touching the forehead to the ground is the most essential part of the sajdah, then I am sorry to say you lack in minimalist Islamic concepts.

Please educate yourself with common factors between both Shias and Sunnis.  The "seven bones" is a common denominator.  But it is funny that you are willing to bring your forehead in contact with soil while you leave your nose hanging the remaining "six bones" come in contact with carpet or prayer rug.

Let's start with the basics with you. the 7 points are big toes, knees, palms (that is 6) and the 7th is the forehead and not the face. Because if it was the face, you cheeks and chins would also have to touch the ground. The nose may or may not be mustahab but it is definitely not wajib.

Now I will ask again, am I in sajdah if my toes, knees and palms are touching the ground but not my forehead? Yes/No.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: ShiaMan on July 13, 2016, 06:00:08 PM
myth debunked - http://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2224/
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: muslim720 on July 13, 2016, 06:34:16 PM
Let's start with the basics with you. the 7 points are big toes, knees, palms (that is 6) and the 7th is the forehead and not the face. Because if it was the face, you cheeks and chins would also have to touch the ground. The nose may or may not be mustahab but it is definitely not wajib.

No one said "the face".  But the Prophet [saw] mentioned the nose after mentioning the forehead.  And while at it, he [saw] did not say "mustahab but it is definitely not wajib".  The Prophet [saw] included the nose.  If you do not like it and prefer to make prostration on a turbah that leaves your nose hanging, then you have a problem with the Prophet [saw] not me.

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Now I will ask again, am I in sajdah if my toes, knees and palms are touching the ground but not my forehead? Yes/No.

No but you are also not in sajdah if everything touches the ground but not your nose.  Your sajdah is invalid even if your toes are lifted off the ground as I stated in my previous post but you, like many other Shias I have dealt with, want a "yes or no" so as to strait-jacket me into a favorable situation.  Keep trying!  You'll only tighten the noose around your own neck, lol!
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: muslim720 on July 13, 2016, 06:46:13 PM
myth debunked - http://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2224/

Here is what made me laugh: "Sajdah should be performed on earth, and on those things which are not edible nor worn, and on things which grow from earth (e.g. wood and leaves of trees). It is not permissible to perform Sajdah on things which are used as food or dress (e.g. wheat, barley and cotton etc.), or on things which are not considered to be parts of the earth (e.g. gold, silver, etc.). And in the situation of helplessness, asphalt and tar will have preference over other non-allowable things."

Leaves come from trees; cotton comes from trees.  The former is acceptable for prostration, the latter is not.  All this while we know that it was permissible, during the time of the Prophet [saw], to use a piece of cloth for prostration when praying outside if the ground was hot.

Who makes these rules?  I bet Shias make rules as they go along, lol!
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: ShiaMan on July 13, 2016, 07:56:31 PM

No one said "the face".  But the Prophet [saw] mentioned the nose after mentioning the forehead.  And while at it, he [saw] did not say "mustahab but it is definitely not wajib".  The Prophet [saw] included the nose.  If you do not like it and prefer to make prostration on a turbah that leaves your nose hanging, then you have a problem with the Prophet [saw] not me.

You said it brother:
There are 7.  One of those 7 points is the face (nose plus forehead).

But the Prophet [saw] mentioned the nose after mentioning the forehead.  And while at it, he [saw] did not say "mustahab but it is definitely not wajib".  The Prophet [saw] included the nose.  If you do not like it and prefer to make prostration on a turbah that leaves your nose hanging, then you have a problem with the Prophet [saw] not me.
Perhaps in all 4 schools of Sunni thought the nose is a requirement, not in shia fiqh and of course we all know Shia fiqh came before the 4 Sunni schools.

No but you are also not in sajdah if everything touches the ground but not your nose.  Your sajdah is invalid even if your toes are lifted off the ground as I stated in my previous post but you, like many other Shias I have dealt with, want a "yes or no" so as to strait-jacket me into a favorable situation.  Keep trying!  You'll only tighten the noose around your own neck, lol!
So then there are 8 points of contact and not 7. Let me count for you:
1) Right big toe
2) Left Big toe
3) Right Knee
4) Left Knee
5) Right Palm
6) Left Palm
7) Forehead
8) Nose.

The noose be a tightin'

Here is what made me laugh: "Sajdah should be performed on earth, and on those things which are not edible nor worn, and on things which grow from earth (e.g. wood and leaves of trees). It is not permissible to perform Sajdah on things which are used as food or dress (e.g. wheat, barley and cotton etc.), or on things which are not considered to be parts of the earth (e.g. gold, silver, etc.). And in the situation of helplessness, asphalt and tar will have preference over other non-allowable things."

Leaves come from trees; cotton comes from trees.  The former is acceptable for prostration, the latter is not.  All this while we know that it was permissible, during the time of the Prophet [saw], to use a piece of cloth for prostration when praying outside if the ground was hot.

Who makes these rules?  I bet Shias make rules as they go along, lol!

And of course the 4 Sunni Schools of thought do not have any rules around salah, sawn, hajj, etc. Is that why I see you guys praying with shoes on?
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: ShiaMan on July 13, 2016, 09:21:50 PM
As I understand it, the Malikis, Shafi’is and Hanafis do not require tip of nose but Hanbalis do. Looking for anyone to validate one way or another.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: learning boy on July 13, 2016, 11:30:10 PM

And of course the 4 Sunni Schools of thought do not have any rules around salah, sawn, hajj, etc. Is that why I see you guys praying with shoes on?

I used to attend a sunni islamic school when I was younger (age 5 until 13), and many of the students there would do wudu with their shoes on as well. Literally wipe the bottom of their shoes with a wet palm.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: ShiaMan on July 13, 2016, 11:44:31 PM

And of course the 4 Sunni Schools of thought do not have any rules around salah, sawn, hajj, etc. Is that why I see you guys praying with shoes on?
Ah, the laissez-faire attitude of these brothers.

I used to attend a sunni islamic school when I was younger (age 5 until 13), and many of the students there would do wudu with their shoes on as well. Literally wipe the bottom of their shoes with a wet palm.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: muslim720 on July 14, 2016, 01:41:12 AM
You said it brother:

Read it again.  I said, "face (nose plus forehead)" thinking you would understand.  But somehow you derived cheeks and ears from it.  If only you Shias read what is in front of you instead of inserting anomalies in it to turn things in your favor.

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Perhaps in all 4 schools of Sunni thought the nose is a requirement, not in shia fiqh and of course we all know Shia fiqh came before the 4 Sunni schools.

This has nothing to do with schools.  It has to do with obeying the Prophet [saw].  Our fiqh started with the Prophet [saw] whereas your school started at the time of fitnah.  So tell me how did your fiqh come before ours again?  Also, your books of fiqh came well after ours - not to mention you borrowed our methodology of authenticating narrations which caused more problems for your hadith collections than solve them - and our fiqh is a direct reflection of the Sunnah, hence the term, "Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jama'ah".  You call yourself, "Jaffari", therefore, your fiqh is about six generations removed from the Prophet [saw], as per your own label.  So to the one who knows nothing about Islam, even he or she can see that we are people, and followers, of Sunnah (of Muhammad [saw]) while you are followers of Imam Jaffar [ra]. 

History and semantics oppose your false claim.

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So then there are 8 points of contact and not 7. Let me count for you:
1) Right big toe
2) Left Big toe
3) Right Knee
4) Left Knee
5) Right Palm
6) Left Palm
7) Forehead
8) Nose.

The noose be a tightin'

Sure is tightening because you can count but you cannot read.  The Prophet [saw] mentioned "seven bones" that must make contact with the ground when you make sajdah.  When he [saw] mentioned the forehead, he [saw] also included the nose.

"It is not permissible for a worshipper to lift up any of these seven parts of the body when prostrating, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allāh be upon him) said: 'I have been commanded to prostrate on seven bones: on the forehead, and he pointed to his nose, and on the two hands, the two knees and the edges of the two feet (i.e., the toes)'.  Narrated by al-Bukhārī, 812; Muslim, 490.  If he lifts up one or both of his feet, or one or both of his hands, or his forehead or nose, or both of them, then his prostration is invalid and does not count, and if his prostration is invalid then his prayer is also invalid'."  (Liqaa'aat al-Baab al-Maftooh by Shaykh Ibn ʿUthaymīn, 2/99)

When the Prophet [saw] spelled it out, he mentioned the forehead and pointed to his nose thereby making them as one single point thus making it very clear that you cannot make contact with your forehead and not your nose or vice-versa.

That aside, please tell us why, when you prostrate, your palms, knees and toes are on the prayer rug?  If we are to prostrate on soil, all points must come in contact with it.

I suggest you start doing some knee drags to rip your pants for those knees to be exposed, lol!

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And of course the 4 Sunni Schools of thought do not have any rules around salah, sawn, hajj, etc. Is that why I see you guys praying with shoes on?

Praying with shoes on is a separate matter that can be discussed by itself.  This discussion is about prostration.  Whether you include the nose or not, please tell us why you deny your palms, knees and toes from coming in contact with soil (or earthly matter) when you prostrate

You cannot have your cake and eat it too.  If you insist on making sajdah on soil, you must make sure that all those seven parts come in contact with it.  If not, your logic is flawed.  I think it is the latter.

FYI, I respect Ayatollah Sistani (if that comes as a shock) but it is sad to see him declare leaves (even paper) permissible but not cotton when we know that it grows on trees.  Furthermore, he ruled out prostrating on anything used for clothing when it is common knowledge that at the time of the Prophet [saw], they would use their garments to prostrate on, while praying outside, if the ground was too hot.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: ShiaMan on July 14, 2016, 03:04:53 AM
You said it brother:

Read it again.  I said, "face (nose plus forehead)" thinking you would understand.  But somehow you derived cheeks and ears from it.  If only you Shias read what is in front of you instead of inserting anomalies in it to turn things in your favor.

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Perhaps in all 4 schools of Sunni thought the nose is a requirement, not in shia fiqh and of course we all know Shia fiqh came before the 4 Sunni schools.

This has nothing to do with schools.  It has to do with obeying the Prophet [saw].  Our fiqh started with the Prophet [saw] whereas your school started at the time of fitnah.  So tell me how did your fiqh come before ours again?  Also, your books of fiqh came well after ours - not to mention you borrowed our methodology of authenticating narrations which caused more problems for your hadith collections than solve them - and our fiqh is a direct reflection of the Sunnah, hence the term, "Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jama'ah".  You call yourself, "Jaffari", therefore, your fiqh is about six generations removed from the Prophet [saw], as per your own label.  So to the one who knows nothing about Islam, even he or she can see that we are people, and followers, of Sunnah (of Muhammad [saw]) while you are followers of Imam Jaffar [ra]. 

History and semantics oppose your false claim.

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So then there are 8 points of contact and not 7. Let me count for you:
1) Right big toe
2) Left Big toe
3) Right Knee
4) Left Knee
5) Right Palm
6) Left Palm
7) Forehead
8) Nose.

The noose be a tightin'

Sure is tightening because you can count but you cannot read.  The Prophet [saw] mentioned "seven bones" that must make contact with the ground when you make sajdah.  When he [saw] mentioned the forehead, he [saw] also included the nose.

"It is not permissible for a worshipper to lift up any of these seven parts of the body when prostrating, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allāh be upon him) said: 'I have been commanded to prostrate on seven bones: on the forehead, and he pointed to his nose, and on the two hands, the two knees and the edges of the two feet (i.e., the toes)'.  Narrated by al-Bukhārī, 812; Muslim, 490.  If he lifts up one or both of his feet, or one or both of his hands, or his forehead or nose, or both of them, then his prostration is invalid and does not count, and if his prostration is invalid then his prayer is also invalid'."  (Liqaa'aat al-Baab al-Maftooh by Shaykh Ibn ʿUthaymīn, 2/99)

When the Prophet [saw] spelled it out, he mentioned the forehead and pointed to his nose thereby making them as one single point thus making it very clear that you cannot make contact with your forehead and not your nose or vice-versa.

That aside, please tell us why, when you prostrate, your palms, knees and toes are on the prayer rug?  If we are to prostrate on soil, all points must come in contact with it.

I suggest you start doing some knee drags to rip your pants for those knees to be exposed, lol!

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And of course the 4 Sunni Schools of thought do not have any rules around salah, sawn, hajj, etc. Is that why I see you guys praying with shoes on?

Praying with shoes on is a separate matter that can be discussed by itself.  This discussion is about prostration.  Whether you include the nose or not, please tell us why you deny your palms, knees and toes from coming in contact with soil (or earthly matter) when you prostrate

You cannot have your cake and eat it too.  If you insist on making sajdah on soil, you must make sure that all those seven parts come in contact with it.  If not, your logic is flawed.  I think it is the latter.

FYI, I respect Ayatollah Sistani (if that comes as a shock) but it is sad to see him declare leaves (even paper) permissible but not cotton when we know that it grows on trees.  Furthermore, he ruled out prostrating on anything used for clothing when it is common knowledge that at the time of the Prophet [saw], they would use their garments to prostrate on, while praying outside, if the ground was too hot.

So you did say face when you said you didn't say face. Make up your mind. Is the stuff in parenthesis your interpretation or someone else's? This may be a shock to you but face and forehead are different.

Oh wait, I just realized you are a wahabi and don't belong to any of the 4 standard sects. Is that correct? If that is the case, then you are even later in like because everything you believe comes from Ibn Taymiah and Abdul Wabab and not the Prophet.

Didnt we reach the conclusion that the forehead is the essence of sajdah? So at the very least I have 1/7 on soil or natural occurring thing while you are 0/7. You fail again.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: muslim720 on July 14, 2016, 03:25:10 AM
So you did say face when you said you didn't say face. Make up your mind. Is the stuff in parenthesis your interpretation or someone else's? This may be a shock to you but face and forehead are different.

I should have known better than to write it out the way I did.  Your kind is known for dancing around the point and clutching on just about anything.  What I said holds no weight; the Prophet [saw] mentioned the forehead and pointed to his nose as well thereby making them as one single unit.  You have a problem with the Prophet [saw], not me.

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Oh wait, I just realized you are a wahabi and don't belong to any of the 4 standard sects. Is that correct? If that is the case, then you are even later in like because everything you believe comes from Ibn Taymiah and Abdul Wabab and not the Prophet.

If you had an ounce of decency, you would have remembered my other post regarding visiting shrines in which I clearly mentioned that I am not against visiting shrines.  In fact, I would love to visit Karbala and Najaf after I have visited the three holy mosques, inshaAllah. 

Come to think of it, you even liked that post then and now you are calling me a "Wahabbi".  Usually name-calling and labeling is the beginning of the end for Shias.  It was expected that you would wither away but not this soon.

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Didnt we reach the conclusion that the forehead is the essence of sajdah? So at the very least I have 1/7 on soil or natural occurring thing while you are 0/7. You fail again.

For sajdah to be valid, repeating myself for the last time, all points must come in contact with the ground.  Even if one point does not, your sajdah is invalid.  The Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jama'ah, in the light of Qur'an and Sunnah, does not declare prostrating on turbah - specifically made from the soil of Karbala - to be an obligation upon all Muslims.  Shias, on the other hand, have made it to be one.  Therefore, when they attack us, we - as rational Muslims - point to the remaining points (that do not come in contact with the turbah) and ask, "what about them?"

Let me break this down further.  For one second, if we assume that Shias are correct and sajdah must be made on soil, then your palms, knees and toes not coming in contact with soil (or turbah) invalidates your prostration (because these points are not coming in contact with the thing that validates sajdah which, as per Shias, is soil or turbah).  Hence, you Shias have come up with your own standard which in turn invalidates your own practice of sajdah, not ours lol!
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: ShiaMan on July 14, 2016, 04:06:10 AM
So you did say face when you said you didn't say face. Make up your mind. Is the stuff in parenthesis your interpretation or someone else's? This may be a shock to you but face and forehead are different.

I should have known better than to write it out the way I did.  Your kind is known for dancing around the point and clutching on just about anything.  What I said holds no weight; the Prophet [saw] mentioned the forehead and pointed to his nose as well thereby making them as one single unit.  You have a problem with the Prophet [saw], not me.

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Oh wait, I just realized you are a wahabi and don't belong to any of the 4 standard sects. Is that correct? If that is the case, then you are even later in like because everything you believe comes from Ibn Taymiah and Abdul Wabab and not the Prophet.

If you had an ounce of decency, you would have remembered my other post regarding visiting shrines in which I clearly mentioned that I am not against visiting shrines.  In fact, I would love to visit Karbala and Najaf after I have visited the three holy mosques, inshaAllah. 

Come to think of it, you even liked that post then and now you are calling me a "Wahabbi".  Usually name-calling and labeling is the beginning of the end for Shias.  It was expected that you would wither away but not this soon.

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Didnt we reach the conclusion that the forehead is the essence of sajdah? So at the very least I have 1/7 on soil or natural occurring thing while you are 0/7. You fail again.

For sajdah to be valid, repeating myself for the last time, all points must come in contact with the ground.  Even if one point does not, your sajdah is invalid.  The Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jama'ah, in the light of Qur'an and Sunnah, does not declare prostrating on turbah - specifically made from the soil of Karbala - to be an obligation upon all Muslims.  Shias, on the other hand, have made it to be one.  Therefore, when they attack us, we - as rational Muslims - point to the remaining points (that do not come in contact with the turbah) and ask, "what about them?"

Let me break this down further.  For one second, if we assume that Shias are correct and sajdah must be made on soil, then your palms, knees and toes not coming in contact with soil (or turbah) invalidates your prostration (because these points are not coming in contact with the thing that validates sajdah which, as per Shias, is soil or turbah).  Hence, you Shias have come up with your own standard which in turn invalidates your own practice of sajdah, not ours lol!
I do sincerely apologize for calling you a wahabi. But then how can you say your fiqh comes straight from Muhammad. Jafari fiqh and the 4 schools all say they are taking their fiqh from the Prophet. However, it is a known fact the founders of the 4 schools followed (as in came after) Jafar Al-Sadiq so unless they traveled back in time to find out from the Prophet, they came after Jafar Al-Sadiq.

Back to sajdah, we are in agreement that all 7 points need to touch for sajdah to be complete (nose we can discuss thereafter). However, you have failed to answer a simple question - is the essence of sajdah the forehead or not? A man can do sajdah without toes, knees, palms but not forehead. So while all 6 touch the ground, the most essential part should touch the soil as a mustahib whenever possible.

It is pretty straightforward.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: muslim720 on July 14, 2016, 04:25:06 PM
I do sincerely apologize for calling you a wahabi.

No worries, brother!

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But then how can you say your fiqh comes straight from Muhammad.

Just like you said that your fiqh preceded ours!

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Jafari fiqh and the 4 schools all say they are taking their fiqh from the Prophet.

Exactly!  So you should contemplate as to why the four schools of Sunnis are so close with each other but the Jaffari school is so isolated from them (in practice and thought).  If we were to apply logic, I would say it is more likely that one person is lying as opposed to four.  The four Sunni schools of fiqh are all under the umbrella of Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jama'ah and it is permissible to follow any of them.  However, we do not say the same for "Jaffari" fiqh because those who claim to follow Imam Jaffar [ra] - the descendant of Prophet [saw] and Abu Bakr [ra] - have made it an article of faith that cursing Imam Jaffar's [ra] ancestor (Abu Bakr) is part of the good deeds.

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However, you have failed to answer a simple question - is the essence of sajdah the forehead or not? A man can do sajdah without toes, knees, palms but not forehead.

The essence of sajdah, pay attention now, is the forehead and nose, two palms, two knees and two toes.  Before you find another escape route or a dimension to add to all this in order to find new straws to clutch on, if a healthy, normal person makes sajdah and any one of those points do not come in contact with the ground, their sajdah is invalid.  All seven points are equally important; one does not take precedence over another.

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So while all 6 touch the ground, the most essential part should touch the soil as a mustahib whenever possible.

But the other 6, in your case, touches the carpet, not soil.  So if your aqeedah teaches you that you must prostrate on soil, all 7 points must touch the soil, not carpet.  Goes back to what I said!  You (Shias) established this practice and when you came after us to mock us, we found out that your own established practice mocks you more than it mocks us, lol!
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: ShiaMan on July 14, 2016, 08:03:30 PM
Just like you said that your fiqh preceded ours!
So we know that the 4 Sunni Imams got their knowledge from a variety of scholars. Do you have a list of all the scholars they studied under?

Jafar Al-Sadiq --> Muhammad Al-Baqir --> Ali Al-Sajjad --> Hussain As-Shaheed --> Hasan Al-Mujtaba --> Ali Al-Murtaza --> Prophet (saw)

Pick the chain of any 4 Sunni imams to the Prophet and compare to this chain. Which would you trust?


Exactly!  So you should contemplate as to why the four schools of Sunnis are so close with each other but the Jaffari school is so isolated from them (in practice and thought).  If we were to apply logic, I would say it is more likely that one person is lying as opposed to four.  The four Sunni schools of fiqh are all under the umbrella of Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jama'ah and it is permissible to follow any of them.  However, we do not say the same for "Jaffari" fiqh because those who claim to follow Imam Jaffar [ra] - the descendant of Prophet [saw] and Abu Bakr [ra] - have made it an article of faith that cursing Imam Jaffar's [ra] ancestor (Abu Bakr) is part of the good deeds.
Correction, we do not curse Caliph Abu Bakr. We curse all those who either opposed or oppressed the AhlulBayt. Now if Caliph Abu Bakr falls under this category, then the question to be asked is why did he oppose the AhlulBayt?

The essence of sajdah, pay attention now, is the forehead and nose, two palms, two knees and two toes.  Before you find another escape route or a dimension to add to all this in order to find new straws to clutch on, if a healthy, normal person makes sajdah and any one of those points do not come in contact with the ground, their sajdah is invalid.  All seven points are equally important; one does not take precedence over another.
I paid attention - now 7 points are required for jdah but the forehead is the essence of sajdah.

But the other 6, in your case, touches the carpet, not soil.  So if your aqeedah teaches you that you must prostrate on soil, all 7 points must touch the soil, not carpet.  Goes back to what I said!  You (Shias) established this practice and when you came after us to mock us, we found out that your own established practice mocks you more than it mocks us, lol!
Now, I could try to bring shia sources for why only on forehead but let's start with this one from Sahih Bukhari:
Narrated Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri:
Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) used to practice I`tikaf in the middle ten days of Ramadan and once he stayed in I`tikaf till the night of the twenty-first and it was the night in the morning of which he used to come out of his I`tikaf. The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Whoever was in I`tikaf with me should stay in I`tikaf for the last ten days, for I was informed (of the date) of the Night (of Qadr) but I have been caused to forget it. (In the dream) I saw myself prostrating in mud and water in the morning of that night. So, look for it in the last ten nights and in the odd ones of them." It rained that night and the roof of the mosque dribbled as it was made of leaf stalks of date-palms. I saw with my own eyes the mark of mud and water on the forehead of the Prophet (i.e. in the morning of the twenty-first).
Sahih al-Bukhari
Book 33, Hadith 3

If it said all 7 (plus nose) were covered in mud/water then we would do the same.

BTW - there are other narrations in Sahih Bukhari that say mud and water covered his forehead and nose.

Also, please tell me what shia has mocked a sunni for not praying on turbah. there are sunni brothers who attend jumah at my mosque and do not use turbah - no one has ever said anything to them.

Finally - we can discuss turbah all day long, but since you have visited shia mosques, do you believe shias are praying to the Imams by praying on it?
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: muslim720 on July 15, 2016, 03:13:27 AM
So we know that the 4 Sunni Imams got their knowledge from a variety of scholars.

Cute!  When needed, you parrot what Al-Tijani wrote; that the Sunni Imams of fiqh [rah] were students of Imam Jaffar As-Sadiq [ra].  When required, you make them out to have teachers other than Imam Jaffar [ra].

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Jafar Al-Sadiq --> Muhammad Al-Baqir --> Ali Al-Sajjad --> Hussain As-Shaheed --> Hasan Al-Mujtaba --> Ali Al-Murtaza --> Prophet (saw)

Pick the chain of any 4 Sunni imams to the Prophet and compare to this chain. Which would you trust?

Is this the only chain that can take you to the Prophet [saw]?  Could there not have been other pious Muslims, those who lived with the Prophet [saw] that passed down knowledge?  From the chain you have shared, as honorable as it is, other than Imam Ali [ra], the other Imams [ra] never saw the Prophet [saw] with Imam Hassan [ra] and Imam Hussain [ra] being children when the Prophet [saw] left this world.

But to answer your question, Imam Malik [rah] and Imam Abu Hanifa [rah] studied under Imam Jaffar [ra].  Imam Al-Shafi'i [rah] was from Banu Muttalib, a sister clan to Banu Hashim, and studied under Imam Malik [rah] (who studied under Imam Jaffar [ra]).  Lastly, Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal [rah] also studied under Imam Al-Shafi'i [rah] (whose knowledge is linked to Imam Jaffar [ra] as well). 

So while you all like to limit the chain and make it appear as though no one else had access to the Prophet [saw] or any other chain was void, we do not hold such beliefs.  And that we learned from the Prophet [saw] who himself did not withhold knowledge or share it only with a prestigious group.

Your religion is one of exclusiveness while we are all-inclusive.  You chop up Islam while we follow it holistically.

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Correction, we do not curse Caliph Abu Bakr. We curse all those who either opposed or oppressed the AhlulBayt. Now if Caliph Abu Bakr falls under this category, then the question to be asked is why did he oppose the AhlulBayt?

It is not a matter of "if Caliph Abu Bakr falls under this category".  If you are true followers of Imam Jaffar [ra], show us when, where and how he cursed Abu Bakr [ra].  From what I know, Imam Jaffar [ra] would never do such a thing which brings us to my main point.  You do not follow Imam Jaffar [ra] in the least bit.  You have just adorned yourself with a label bearing his name.

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I paid attention - now 7 points are required for jdah but the forehead is the essence of sajdah.

Let us see your helpless proof to support your laughable conclusion.

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Now, I could try to bring shia sources for why only on forehead but let's start with this one from Sahih Bukhari

You wanted the narrator to check the palms of the Prophet [saw], followed by inspecting his knees and finally his toes?  But let me get to your blunder.

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If it said all 7 (plus nose) were covered in mud/water then we would do the same.

BTW - there are other narrations in Sahih Bukhari that say mud and water covered his forehead and nose.

Wallaahi, seeing how you contradict yourself, I am convinced you are not fit to have a discussion with.  You say, "if it said all 7 were covered....then we would do the same" only to turn around and admit that there are other narrations that include the nose.  And it was yesterday that you were arguing over nose being or not being a part of the "seven bones". 

The irony of your madhhab is that you believe in a hiding Imam but you will not believe the words and practices of Prophet [saw] which are clear as daylight.

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Also, please tell me what shia has mocked a sunni for not praying on turbah. there are sunni brothers who attend jumah at my mosque and do not use turbah - no one has ever said anything to them.

Been to such a mosque and I always pray without but that does not mean that there is no mockery going on.  When I read the pamphlets there, trying to establish a case for turbah using our books, it is clear that it is nothing short of mockery.  It is the same as saying, "we know your books better than you".

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Finally - we can discuss turbah all day long, but since you have visited shia mosques, do you believe shias are praying to the Imams by praying on it?

No but to insist that sajdah can only be made on soil to make a special case for the soil of Karbala is not far from blurring the boundaries of Tawheed.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: ShiaMan on July 15, 2016, 10:22:39 PM
Cute!  When needed, you parrot what Al-Tijani wrote; that the Sunni Imams of fiqh [rah] were students of Imam Jaffar As-Sadiq [ra].  When required, you make them out to have teachers other than Imam Jaffar [ra].
Do either Tejani or I say that their exclusive teacher was Jafar Al-Sadiq or for that matter that they were the only students of Jafar Al-Sadiq???

Is this the only chain that can take you to the Prophet [saw]?  Could there not have been other pious Muslims, those who lived with the Prophet [saw] that passed down knowledge?  From the chain you have shared, as honorable as it is, other than Imam Ali [ra], the other Imams [ra] never saw the Prophet [saw] with Imam Hassan [ra] and Imam Hussain [ra] being children when the Prophet [saw] left this world.

But to answer your question, Imam Malik [rah] and Imam Abu Hanifa [rah] studied under Imam Jaffar [ra].  Imam Al-Shafi'i [rah] was from Banu Muttalib, a sister clan to Banu Hashim, and studied under Imam Malik [rah] (who studied under Imam Jaffar [ra]).  Lastly, Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal [rah] also studied under Imam Al-Shafi'i [rah] (whose knowledge is linked to Imam Jaffar [ra] as well). 

So while you all like to limit the chain and make it appear as though no one else had access to the Prophet [saw] or any other chain was void, we do not hold such beliefs.  And that we learned from the Prophet [saw] who himself did not withhold knowledge or share it only with a prestigious group.

Your religion is one of exclusiveness while we are all-inclusive.  You chop up Islam while we follow it holistically.
To make it simple - no we are not limited to taking Islam from Imams only but from the sahaba who were loyal to AhlulBayt as well.
Your 'holistic'Islam simply means you do not use sound judgement in understand Islam but take everything. We vet things before accepting them because the history of Islam is fraught with liars.



It is not a matter of "if Caliph Abu Bakr falls under this category".  If you are true followers of Imam Jaffar [ra], show us when, where and how he cursed Abu Bakr [ra].  From what I know, Imam Jaffar [ra] would never do such a thing which brings us to my main point.  You do not follow Imam Jaffar [ra] in the least bit.  You have just adorned yourself with a label bearing his name.
Ziarat-e-Ashura has a chain to Jafar Al-Sadiq wherein the enemies of AhlulBayt are cursed. If Caliph Abu Bakr is not guilty, it is not applicable to him.

Wallaahi, seeing how you contradict yourself, I am convinced you are not fit to have a discussion with.  You say, "if it said all 7 were covered....then we would do the same" only to turn around and admit that there are other narrations that include the nose.  And it was yesterday that you were arguing over nose being or not being a part of the "seven bones". 

The irony of your madhhab is that you believe in a hiding Imam but you will not believe the words and practices of Prophet [saw] which are clear as daylight.
Are you always irrational or only when talking discussing with shias?
The only discussion to be had on the nose is whether it is wajib to touch it to the ground or not. I have already said it is mustahab.  So when most of the narrations say "(nose)" one has to consider why it is so. Or when Ibn Abbas and others say 7 bones plus nose (or point at their nose).

Two examples of sunnis who say it is makrouh not to touch the nose:
http://www.islamicacademy.org/html/Books/GLIS/oap.htm
Q22: What is Sajdah?
A. Placing the forehead firmly on the ground is called Sajdah.
Placing the inside(s) of respective one toe of both the feet on the ground is an important condition of Sajdah, of three toes is Wajib and of all the ten toes is Sunnah.

Q24: Will Sajdah be lawful if made only on the nose or only on the forehead?
A. One can observe Sajdah by placing only his nose on the ground if he can not touch his forehead with the ground due to some distress. However, the nose should be placed so firmly on the ground that its bone touches the ground. The observance of Sajdah only on the nose without any cogent reason renders prayer void and it is Makrooh to make Sajdah only on the forehead if one has no difficulty in placing his nose on the ground.


http://m.dinimizislam.com/detail_en.asp?Aid=6251
Actions That Are Makruh in Salat
22. Not touching the nose to the ground in sajda,

Sistani says mustahab to do, these guys say makrouh not to do. Clearly there are different rulings. What we do know is that hanafi consider it wajib, shias consider it mustahab and some others consider it makrouh not to do it.
Talk about making a mountain of a molehill.

Furthermore, the nose is a cartilage and not bone otherwise the hadith would have been 8 bones.

Lastly not everything the Prophet (saw) says is wajib. Like he recommended miswak, so are you going to now say it is wajib to do miswak.

Feel free to use your brain every now and then.

Been to such a mosque and I always pray without but that does not mean that there is no mockery going on.  When I read the pamphlets there, trying to establish a case for turbah using our books, it is clear that it is nothing short of mockery.  It is the same as saying, "we know your books better than you".
Wait, so shia mosques have books to explain the use of turbah and they cite shia and sunni references - to you that is a mockery of sunnism? Couldnt it simply be an explanation of our faith?
Paranoia extreme bro.
Now, if shias start putting these books (please name the book for me) in Sunni mosques, perhaps you will have a case.

No but to insist that sajdah can only be made on soil to make a special case for the soil of Karbala is not far from blurring the boundaries of Tawheed.
Did you not read the link where Sistani lists out all the different things where it is possible to do sajdah? Why do you say "only soil of karbala"?

let go of the hate and you will be able to think better.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: muslim720 on July 16, 2016, 04:29:02 AM
Do either Tejani or I say that their exclusive teacher was Jafar Al-Sadiq or for that matter that they were the only students of Jafar Al-Sadiq???

Depending on the scenario, Shias tend to flip between answers.  Like Fadak, for example.  One day it is given to Fatima [ra] as her inheritance; the next day it is gifted to her.

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To make it simple - no we are not limited to taking Islam from Imams only but from the sahaba who were loyal to AhlulBayt as well.

Where is this criteria spelled out in the Qur'an?  Or are you pulling it out of your own whims?  And how could Abu Bakr [ra], Umar [ra] and Uthman [ra] not be loyal to Ahlul Bayt [ra] when they gave their daughters in marriage to the Prophet [saw] (in the case of the first two) and accepted the daughters of the Prophet [saw] in marriage (in the case of the third one)?

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Your 'holistic'Islam simply means you do not use sound judgement in understand Islam but take everything. We vet things before accepting them because the history of Islam is fraught with liars.

We take everything?  Who invented the methodology to authenticate narrations?  While you want us to believe that we take everything, isn't your own prestigious sacred text, "Nahjul Balagha" without any narrators?  There is not a single chain for any of the material within its two covers and Imam Khomeini declared it the "Brother of the Qur'an", a statement he said was a reflection of the scholars of the past (so his declaration was not an one-off statement).

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Ziarat-e-Ashura has a chain to Jafar Al-Sadiq wherein the enemies of AhlulBayt are cursed. If Caliph Abu Bakr is not guilty, it is not applicable to him.

Ziaarat-e-Aashura has no bearing on aqeedah since it occurred after the religion had been perfected.  A system declared perfect by Allah [swt] leaves no room for lamentations and passion stories which came six to seven decades later.

The only enemies of Ahlul Bayt [ra] - write this down somewhere - were, and are, those who pretend to be their lovers and supporters.  People who wrote letters to Imam Hussain [ra] pledging allegiance turned on him.  We have those who label themselves "Jaffari" while openly cursing his ancestor, without an ounce of shame and decency, on public (and private) forums.

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The only discussion to be had on the nose is whether it is wajib to touch it to the ground or not. I have already said it is mustahab.  So when most of the narrations say "(nose)" one has to consider why it is so.

The Prophet [saw], in an authentic narration, mentioned the forehead and pointed to his nose as well.  In other words, he [saw] included the nose in the "seven bones" by making the forehead and the nose to be a single point of contact.  Then you stated that if you learn otherwise from me, you would change the way you pray.  Thereafter, you shared a narration which stated that the Prophet [saw] had mud on his forehead after he had concluded his prayer.  You tried to pass it off as mud being absent from the remaining six "bones" and what a pathetic attempt that was considering that when we speak with people, we look at their face.  After sharing that hadith, you immediately mentioned that there are other narrations that make mention of the nose as well. 

Now tell me why is the nose mustahab, according to you?  And what exactly is your authority over the Prophet [saw] for us to change the Sunnah and declare the touching of the ground with the nose mustahab when the Prophet [saw] made it wajib?

Ibn Abbas [ra] narrated from the Prophet [saw] the following: "There is no prayer for someone whose nose does not touch the floor as much as his forehead."

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Two examples of sunnis who say it is makrouh not to touch the nose:
http://www.islamicacademy.org/html/Books/GLIS/oap.htm
Q22: What is Sajdah?
A. Placing the forehead firmly on the ground is called Sajdah.
Placing the inside(s) of respective one toe of both the feet on the ground is an important condition of Sajdah, of three toes is Wajib and of all the ten toes is Sunnah.

Now let us see who is irrational to the point of blindness.  On that very link, the answer to the second question - no need to jump to answer for question 22 - states:

"Q 2: How many obligatory acts are there in prayer? A. Seven obligatory acts are in prayer:
1. Takbeer-e-Tahreema (first utterance of the words of "Al-Laahu Akbar" (Allah is the Most Great) to commence prayer).
2. Qiyaam (standing erect).
3. Qiraa-at (recitation from the Holy Qur-aan).
4. Rukoo (bowing of the head with the hands grasping the knees).
5. Sujood: [singular: Sajdah] (prostrations with the forehead, nose, palms of the hands, knees and insides of toes of both the feet firmly placed on the ground).
6. Qa'adah-e-Akheera (last sitting posture).
7. Khurooj-e-Bisun'ihee (to end prayer with his own action or intention)."

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Q24: Will Sajdah be lawful if made only on the nose or only on the forehead?
A. One can observe Sajdah by placing only his nose on the ground if he can not touch his forehead with the ground due to some distress. However, the nose should be placed so firmly on the ground that its bone touches the ground. The observance of Sajdah only on the nose without any cogent reason renders prayer void and it is Makrooh to make Sajdah only on the forehead if one has no difficulty in placing his nose on the ground.

Exactly why I went out of my way to mention the following in an earlier post of mine:
"Before you find another escape route or a dimension to add to all this in order to find new straws to clutch on, if a healthy, normal person makes sajdah and any one of those points do not come in contact with the ground, their sajdah is invalid." 

Healthy, normal person meaning one who is capable to do so without any distress.

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Sistani says mustahab to do, these guys say makrouh not to do. Clearly there are different rulings. What we do know is that hanafi consider it wajib, shias consider it mustahab and some others consider it makrouh not to do it.

With all due respect, Ayatollah Sistani is someone I have tremendous respect for but I do not take fiqh or aqeedah from him.  As for this one considers it wajib and that one considers sajdah makrooh if nose does not come in contact, I think I already shared the refutation for it.

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Furthermore, the nose is a cartilage and not bone otherwise the hadith would have been 8 bones.

Already answered, like 5 times, if not more!

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Lastly not everything the Prophet (saw) says is wajib. Like he recommended miswak, so are you going to now say it is wajib to do miswak.

No because the Prophet [saw] himself said that he [saw] would have made it obligatory if not for it being inconvenient.  He [saw] also said that miswak (along with Witr and Tahajjud) are fardh upon him but sunnah upon us.

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Feel free to use your brain every now and then.

Maybe you can heed your own advice.

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Wait, so shia mosques have books to explain the use of turbah and they cite shia and sunni references - to you that is a mockery of sunnism? Couldnt it simply be an explanation of our faith?

These pamphlets do not have a single reference to any Shia texts.  Can you not explain your faith using your own texts?  You can but it does not do the job....the job being trying to one-up the rest of the ummah.

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Now, if shias start putting these books (please name the book for me) in Sunni mosques, perhaps you will have a case.

lol, they cannot dare do so. 

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Did you not read the link where Sistani lists out all the different things where it is possible to do sajdah? Why do you say "only soil of karbala"?

Shias make a special case for the soil of Karbala.  You pay lip service to other different things but you only value soil from Karbala.  Why are you so afraid to stand by your madhhab?
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: MuslimK on July 16, 2016, 01:21:24 PM
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: muslim720 on July 22, 2016, 11:45:07 AM
Alhamdulilah, after failing to bring one single fatwa by any Shia scholar declaring kufr upon anyone who believes in tahreef, this is another point ShiaMan has failed to establish.  His own references backfired, lol!
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: ShiaMan on July 27, 2016, 12:23:20 AM
Where is this criteria spelled out in the Qur'an?  Or are you pulling it out of your own whims?  And how could Abu Bakr [ra], Umar [ra] and Uthman [ra] not be loyal to Ahlul Bayt [ra] when they gave their daughters in marriage to the Prophet [saw] (in the case of the first two) and accepted the daughters of the Prophet [saw] in marriage (in the case of the third one)?
You know where it says it is okay to follow one of the 4 Sunni imams or Bukhari is 100% sahih, just before it.

About the nose issue, I already showed you the different rulings and even in the video posted by MuslimK, Sheikh Uthman Al-Khamis mentions and points to the forehead only and specifically, no mention of the nose.

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Wait, so shia mosques have books to explain the use of turbah and they cite shia and sunni references - to you that is a mockery of sunnism? Couldnt it simply be an explanation of our faith?

These pamphlets do not have a single reference to any Shia texts.  Can you not explain your faith using your own texts?  You can but it does not do the job....the job being trying to one-up the rest of the ummah.
Just when I think you could not get any dumber, there you go surprising me again. Shias put pamphlets about turbah (please show me a copy) using sunni sources to explain to sunnis why it is used. There is no need to explain to a shia in a shia mosque because most likely the shia already knows. You failing miserably to show how anyone is making a mockery of anything.


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Now, if shias start putting these books (please name the book for me) in Sunni mosques, perhaps you will have a case.
lol, they cannot dare do so. 
Probably true since the guy will have his head chopped off before he even reaches the door. And yet we allow sunnis to pray in our mosques on carpet and anything they deem fit.
You people...


Shias make a special case for the soil of Karbala.  You pay lip service to other different things but you only value soil from Karbala.  Why are you so afraid to stand by your madhhab?
If I was afraid, I would not be here.
No doubt the soil of Karbala holds special meaning for us. However, we are not limited to it by any means.

URL
Alhamdulilah, after failing to bring one single fatwa by any Shia scholar declaring kufr upon anyone who believes in tahreef, this is another point ShiaMan has failed to establish.  His own references backfired, lol!

While I usually ignore videos from Anti-Majoos, this one was interesting.

Sheikh Uthman Al-Khamis indeed confirmed wajib points are forehead, palms, knees, toes. Did not mention nose.
He also confirmed it is okay to do sujud on turab (soil). he also confirmed we do sujud on anything that comes from the ground, etc.

Unfortunately for you guys, you have not proven anything other than your own stupidity.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: muslim720 on July 27, 2016, 12:20:33 PM
You know where it says it is okay to follow one of the 4 Sunni imams or Bukhari is 100% sahih, just before it.

Oh, at the corner of where Shiaism meets logic?  Gotcha!  Isn't there a cellar or hiding cave there as well?

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About the nose issue, I already showed you the different rulings and even in the video posted by MuslimK, Sheikh Uthman Al-Khamis mentions and points to the forehead only and specifically, no mention of the nose.

Your "different rulings" have been refuted long ago and I follow the Prophet [saw], not Uthman Al-Khamis.

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Just when I think you could not get any dumber, there you go surprising me again. Shias put pamphlets about turbah (please show me a copy) using sunni sources to explain to sunnis why it is used. There is no need to explain to a shia in a shia mosque because most likely the shia already knows. You failing miserably to show how anyone is making a mockery of anything.

Let us proceed step-by-step.  The Shia, as you have mentioned, "already knows" to prostrate on turbah.  Then what is the point of having pamphlets (in Shia mosques) trying to establish the practice from our books?  It is to say to the few Sunnis (who happen to drop by) that we (Shias) are right and you (Sunnis) do not even know what is in your own texts.  Is that not a mockery?

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Probably true since the guy will have his head chopped off before he even reaches the door. And yet we allow sunnis to pray in our mosques on carpet and anything they deem fit.
You people...

Honestly, Shias, like yourself, have no "head". 

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If I was afraid, I would not be here.

...from behind a computer screen, lol!

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No doubt the soil of Karbala holds special meaning for us. However, we are not limited to it by any means.

It sure does!  A religion (Islam) deeply rooted in monotheism has a sect which restricts prayer to having an object (clay, paper, whatever) for prostration thereby introducing elements of polytheism to it.  Either the religion is not quite monotheistic or the sect is misguided (in this issue).  I like to think it is the latter.

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Sheikh Uthman Al-Khamis indeed confirmed wajib points are forehead, palms, knees, toes. Did not mention nose.
He also confirmed it is okay to do sujud on turab (soil). he also confirmed we do sujud on anything that comes from the ground, etc.

Unfortunately for you guys, you have not proven anything other than your own stupidity.


Let us not talk about stupidity until you have brought forth a fatwa from your own scholars declaring kufr upon anyone who believes in tahreef.  Oh, I'm sorry, you already said you cannot.  And as I said earlier, I follow the Prophet [saw], not Uthman Al-Khamis.  Must be very hard for someone like yourself, who takes the verdicts of Ayatollah Sistani (who deems clothes not fit for prostration whereas the Prophet [saw] never forbade anyone from doing so) over the sunnah of the Prophet [saw], to comprehend this point.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 27, 2016, 01:11:44 PM
We read in Shia hadeeth:

أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع يَقُولُ لَا صَلَاةَ لِمَنْ لَمْ يُصِبْ أَنْفُهُ مَا يُصِيبُ جَبِينُه

Imam Abu AbdAllah(as) said, ‘Salat (prayer) does not come into being until one’s nose touches what his forehead has touched.’”(Shia books, Al-kafi, vol 3, page 334; Wasa’el ashi’a, Vol 4, Section: the obligation to touch forehead, both hands, both knees and both great toes to the ground, and put the nose firmly on the ground (highly recommended) and some of prostration rules.)

Authenticated by:
Yusuf Al-Bahrani in Al-Hada’iq Al-Nadhira 4/344-345
Al-Waheed Al-Bahbahani in Masabeeh Al-Thalam 8/49-51
Al-Tabtaba’ee Al-Ha’iree in Riyadh Al-Masa’el 3/225
Abu Qasim Al-Qummi in Ghana’im Al-Ayam 2/621
Ahmad Al-Kashani in Mustanad Al-Shia 3/440
Mohammad Hasan Al-Najafi in Jawahir Al-Kalam 5/199
Al-Tabtaba’ee in Mustamsak Al-Urwat Al-Wuthqa 4/407
Abdula’ala Al-Sabzawari in Muhathab Al-Ahkam 4/411
Murtadha Bani Fadhl in Madarik Tahreer Al-Waseela 1/548
Al-Majlisi I in Rawdhat Al-Mutaqeen 2/183.

Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: muslim720 on July 27, 2016, 01:37:05 PM
^ I have that narration waiting for him here: http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-discussion/shiachat-is-back!!!/msg12692/#new

Along with these which ShiaPen quotes....not knowing that they do more damage than good (to their cause).

“The Prophet (s) had the sign of Mud on his forehead and Nose, due to prostration on Mud”. (Sunan Abu Dawud)

“From Umm Attiya it is narrated that the Salat of one who does not place his nose right on the EARTH is not accepted”. (Kanz Ul Ammal Vol 7 Tradition No. 19804)

The Prophet (saw) said, “There is no prayer for the one whose nose does not feel as much of the ground as the forehead". (Daaraqutni, Tabaraani (3/140/1) & Abu Nu`aim in Akhbaar Isbahaan)
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: ShiaMan on July 29, 2016, 11:37:18 PM
Oh, at the corner of where Shiaism meets logic?  Gotcha!  Isn't there a cellar or hiding cave there as well?
So we agree that Shia and Logic meet. Can't say the same for you though bro.

Your "different rulings" have been refuted long ago and I follow the Prophet [saw], not Uthman Al-Khamis.
one of your brethren provided the video, not me.

Let us proceed step-by-step.  The Shia, as you have mentioned, "already knows" to prostrate on turbah.  Then what is the point of having pamphlets (in Shia mosques) trying to establish the practice from our books?  It is to say to the few Sunnis (who happen to drop by) that we (Shias) are right and you (Sunnis) do not even know what is in your own texts.  Is that not a mockery?
or it could simply mean that we are telling the Sunni brothers that dont judge the turbah until you have read that it is okay to do so and you dont have to but we choose to. Where is the mockery?

It sure does!  A religion (Islam) deeply rooted in monotheism has a sect which restricts prayer to having an object (clay, paper, whatever) for prostration thereby introducing elements of polytheism to it.  Either the religion is not quite monotheistic or the sect is misguided (in this issue).  I like to think it is the latter.
Didnt you previously agree that this is no shirk? I think your simple mind does not grasp the concept that praying ON something is different from praying TO something. By that token, you worship carpet???

Let us not talk about stupidity until you have brought forth a fatwa from your own scholars declaring kufr upon anyone who believes in tahreef.  Oh, I'm sorry, you already said you cannot.  And as I said earlier, I follow the Prophet [saw], not Uthman Al-Khamis.  Must be very hard for someone like yourself, who takes the verdicts of Ayatollah Sistani (who deems clothes not fit for prostration whereas the Prophet [saw] never forbade anyone from doing so) over the sunnah of the Prophet [saw], to comprehend this point.
I cant provide a source where our marajae tell us to breath to live, eat to live, etc. Speaking of Sunnah, did he pray on straw mats or plush carpets?

We read in Shia hadeeth:

أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع يَقُولُ لَا صَلَاةَ لِمَنْ لَمْ يُصِبْ أَنْفُهُ مَا يُصِيبُ جَبِينُه

Imam Abu AbdAllah(as) said, ‘Salat (prayer) does not come into being until one’s nose touches what his forehead has touched.’”(Shia books, Al-kafi, vol 3, page 334; Wasa’el ashi’a, Vol 4, Section: the obligation to touch forehead, both hands, both knees and both great toes to the ground, and put the nose firmly on the ground (highly recommended) and some of prostration rules.)

Authenticated by:
Yusuf Al-Bahrani in Al-Hada’iq Al-Nadhira 4/344-345
Al-Waheed Al-Bahbahani in Masabeeh Al-Thalam 8/49-51
Al-Tabtaba’ee Al-Ha’iree in Riyadh Al-Masa’el 3/225
Abu Qasim Al-Qummi in Ghana’im Al-Ayam 2/621
Ahmad Al-Kashani in Mustanad Al-Shia 3/440
Mohammad Hasan Al-Najafi in Jawahir Al-Kalam 5/199
Al-Tabtaba’ee in Mustamsak Al-Urwat Al-Wuthqa 4/407
Abdula’ala Al-Sabzawari in Muhathab Al-Ahkam 4/411
Murtadha Bani Fadhl in Madarik Tahreer Al-Waseela 1/548
Al-Majlisi I in Rawdhat Al-Mutaqeen 2/183.
highly recommended - that's all I have been saying so thanks for the quote.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 30, 2016, 12:21:33 AM
highly recommended - that's all I have been saying so thanks for the quote.
You stick to the name of the chapter, instead of what your Imam said. Your Imam says:

Salat (prayer) does not come into being until one’s nose touches what his forehead has touched.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: muslim720 on July 30, 2016, 05:22:12 AM
So we agree that Shia and Logic meet. Can't say the same for you though bro.

Of course you can't say that for me because my logic supersedes yours.  By default, your logic sees mine as a threat and as is customary, you smear that which what you cannot explain (or comprehend).  I thought you would see the sarcasm in my comment (hint: cellar, hiding cave).

Quote
Didnt you previously agree that this is no shirk?

I did but seeing how you have evaded all counter-rebuttals we have put forth, I have decided to speak with you on your (low) level, using your approach.

Quote
By that token, you worship carpet???

I have not declared sajdah (therefore prayers) invalid if not performed on carpet.  You, on the other hand, argue that sajdah is invalid if not made on soil (especially from Karbala).  See the difference? 

The whole "but you can also use paper" argument is pathetic.  Cotton is far more natural than paper yet you reject it knowing that the Prophet [saw] never forbade anyone from prostrating on their clothing.

Quote
I cant provide a source where our marajae tell us to breath to live, eat to live, etc.

Fatwa (declaring kufr upon those who believe in tahreef) or nothing.  Do not try to run away from the point.  Actually, you already admitted that you cannot find such a fatwa.
Title: Re: Turbah: Sajdah to the Imams*
Post by: ShiaMan on August 01, 2016, 07:52:44 PM
Of course you can't say that for me because my logic supersedes yours.  By default, your logic sees mine as a threat and as is customary, you smear that which what you cannot explain (or comprehend).  I thought you would see the sarcasm in my comment (hint: cellar, hiding cave).
bold orange - oxymoron

I did but seeing how you have evaded all counter-rebuttals we have put forth, I have decided to speak with you on your (low) level, using your approach.
once you have agreed that prostrating on turbah is not shirk - that discussion is over. Close this thread.

Now the matter of nose touching exists. Start a new thread so we may discuss.

I have not declared sajdah (therefore prayers) invalid if not performed on carpet.  You, on the other hand, argue that sajdah is invalid if not made on soil (especially from Karbala).  See the difference? 
what about the list of other things I mentioned. My goldfish has better memory than you.

Fatwa (declaring kufr upon those who believe in tahreef) or nothing.  Do not try to run away from the point.  Actually, you already admitted that you cannot find such a fatwa.
I am not going to waste time on a wild goose chase. If I bring forth a fatwa, you will say it is taqiya; if I dont you will say shias believe in tahreef when you know for a fact that shias don't.