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"Ali refused the sunna of Omar and Abu Bakr"

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ShiaMan

Re: "Ali refused the sunna of Omar and Abu Bakr"
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2016, 11:25:29 PM »
The full report mentions that Ali rejected the view that Prophet(saws) appointed a successor. This destroys the base of Shiism. So we have a Shia man who is on the verge of destroying a fundamental Shia belief.
The 'full' report is just a report and different from what scusemyenglish mentions. The fundamental shia belief in Imamat stands strong. Abdurehman presented 3 conditions out of which 2 were acceptable to Imam Ali and 1 was not. It has nothing to do with whether the Prophet nominated a successor or not.

You have got it completely wrong. Ali himself testified on multiple occasions that Shiekhein adhered to the Sunnah of Prophet(saws). Any objective reader would prefer Ali's own explicit testimony over your faulty explanations.  Sheikhein adhered to Quran and Sunnah as Ali himself testified but they were a lot strict in their way of rule as shown in the examples. Hence Ali wasn't confident enough that he could follow their style.
But the hadith does not mention enforcement of rules. Rather it explicitly distinguishes the Sunnah of the Prophet from the Sunnah of the Sheikhain. But even if we go with your interpretation. Are you saying the Prophet was lax in his enforcement of Allah's rulings?
Abdurrehman ibn Awf thought they did things differently from the Prophet hence he presented 3 options to Ali and Ali rightly rejected the last option. After all, who is Ali to move away from Allah and the Prophet.

We have Sunni reports with explicit words that these words by Ali were for Umar bin khattab. And we even have testimony of Ibn Abil hadees. But obviously this sermon is like a dagger in the heart of Shiism, so obviously they are never gonna accept that it was for Umar, hence they come up with their own weird theories to counter explicit facts.
But we prefer explicit facts over theories. And facts show that it was for Umar.
but we could say the same for you. Also, do these 'facts' you speak of include the famous sermon https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-allah-son-abu-quhafah

The derived mean is as per the understanding of people blessed with understanding and common sense. It the absurd Shia interpretation is implied into it then it becomes an oxymoron.
huh? put down the thesaurus

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: "Ali refused the sunna of Omar and Abu Bakr"
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2016, 03:29:31 AM »
The full report mentions that Ali rejected the view that Prophet(saws) appointed a successor. This destroys the base of Shiism. So we have a Shia man who is on the verge of destroying a fundamental Shia belief.
The 'full' report is just a report and different from what scusemyenglish mentions. The fundamental shia belief in Imamat stands strong. Abdurehman presented 3 conditions out of which 2 were acceptable to Imam Ali and 1 was not. It has nothing to do with whether the Prophet nominated a successor or not.
Unfortunately, it too strong for you to just ignore it saying its different. It just displays your ignorance. The report is same not different. You can't behave like jews, taking a part which suits your desire and leaving that which destroys your fundamental belief.

As for the response of Ali(ra) that has been explained along with suitable examples.


Quote
You have got it completely wrong. Ali himself testified on multiple occasions that Shiekhein adhered to the Sunnah of Prophet(saws). Any objective reader would prefer Ali's own explicit testimony over your faulty explanations.  Sheikhein adhered to Quran and Sunnah as Ali himself testified but they were a lot strict in their way of rule as shown in the examples. Hence Ali wasn't confident enough that he could follow their style.
But the hadith does not mention enforcement of rules. Rather it explicitly distinguishes the Sunnah of the Prophet from the Sunnah of the Sheikhain. But even if we go with your interpretation. Are you saying the Prophet was lax in his enforcement of Allah's rulings?
Abdurrehman ibn Awf thought they did things differently from the Prophet hence he presented 3 options to Ali and Ali rightly rejected the last option. After all, who is Ali to move away from Allah and the Prophet.
The basis of your misunderstanding is your lack of understanding texts. The response of Ali(ra) was not that he would only follow Quran and Sunnah, if this was his response then your speculation would have been considered, however Ali(ra) himself says that along with Quran and Sunnah, he will use his own independent reasoning. Which implies that he will set his own example, since the example of Shiekhein was too difficult to follow, as Ali himself testified.

Hence, we Sunnis remain objective and stick to the authentic and explicit statements of Ali in this case where he said that shiekhein followed Quran and Sunnah. And this fair and unbiased.

Quote
We have Sunni reports with explicit words that these words by Ali were for Umar bin khattab. And we even have testimony of Ibn Abil hadees. But obviously this sermon is like a dagger in the heart of Shiism, so obviously they are never gonna accept that it was for Umar, hence they come up with their own weird theories to counter explicit facts.
But we prefer explicit facts over theories. And facts show that it was for Umar.
but we could say the same for you. Also, do these 'facts' you speak of include the famous sermon https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-allah-son-abu-quhafah
People say whatever they like, whether what they say makes any sense or not. What matters is the quality of response. What I said, is based on solid proofs and testitimonies, while your excuse is based on assumptions and theories. And we know any objective person would prefer, clear cut and strong explicit proof over speculations and theories.

As for quoting any other sermon, then the discussion is not about that. And usually people loose the track and get derail by discussing the issues which arent directly related.

And I say that you are free to reject it, based on your biased perspective, but for Sunnis, we have authentic reports along with this sermon in our Books which clearly states that ABu Bakr and Umar followed Quran and Sunnah.

Quote
The derived mean is as per the understanding of people blessed with understanding and common sense. It the absurd Shia interpretation is implied into it then it becomes an oxymoron.
huh? put down the thesaurus
Seerah is basically the way a person lived. If the Khulafa rashideen lived the life against Quran and Sunnah, then asking to follow their seerah along with Quran and Sunnah, would be an oxymoron. But since you aren't even competent enough to know what exactly seerah means, you are bound to make the ridiculous argument due to your ignorance.

ShiaMan

Re: "Ali refused the sunna of Omar and Abu Bakr"
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2016, 11:19:44 PM »
The full report mentions that Ali rejected the view that Prophet(saws) appointed a successor. This destroys the base of Shiism. So we have a Shia man who is on the verge of destroying a fundamental Shia belief.
The 'full' report is just a report and different from what scusemyenglish mentions. The fundamental shia belief in Imamat stands strong. Abdurehman presented 3 conditions out of which 2 were acceptable to Imam Ali and 1 was not. It has nothing to do with whether the Prophet nominated a successor or not.
Unfortunately, it too strong for you to just ignore it saying its different. It just displays your ignorance. The report is same not different. You can't behave like jews, taking a part which suits your desire and leaving that which destroys your fundamental belief.

As for the response of Ali(ra) that has been explained along with suitable examples.


Quote
You have got it completely wrong. Ali himself testified on multiple occasions that Shiekhein adhered to the Sunnah of Prophet(saws). Any objective reader would prefer Ali's own explicit testimony over your faulty explanations.  Sheikhein adhered to Quran and Sunnah as Ali himself testified but they were a lot strict in their way of rule as shown in the examples. Hence Ali wasn't confident enough that he could follow their style.
But the hadith does not mention enforcement of rules. Rather it explicitly distinguishes the Sunnah of the Prophet from the Sunnah of the Sheikhain. But even if we go with your interpretation. Are you saying the Prophet was lax in his enforcement of Allah's rulings?
Abdurrehman ibn Awf thought they did things differently from the Prophet hence he presented 3 options to Ali and Ali rightly rejected the last option. After all, who is Ali to move away from Allah and the Prophet.
The basis of your misunderstanding is your lack of understanding texts. The response of Ali(ra) was not that he would only follow Quran and Sunnah, if this was his response then your speculation would have been considered, however Ali(ra) himself says that along with Quran and Sunnah, he will use his own independent reasoning. Which implies that he will set his own example, since the example of Shiekhein was too difficult to follow, as Ali himself testified.

Hence, we Sunnis remain objective and stick to the authentic and explicit statements of Ali in this case where he said that shiekhein followed Quran and Sunnah. And this fair and unbiased.

Quote
We have Sunni reports with explicit words that these words by Ali were for Umar bin khattab. And we even have testimony of Ibn Abil hadees. But obviously this sermon is like a dagger in the heart of Shiism, so obviously they are never gonna accept that it was for Umar, hence they come up with their own weird theories to counter explicit facts.
But we prefer explicit facts over theories. And facts show that it was for Umar.
but we could say the same for you. Also, do these 'facts' you speak of include the famous sermon https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-allah-son-abu-quhafah
People say whatever they like, whether what they say makes any sense or not. What matters is the quality of response. What I said, is based on solid proofs and testitimonies, while your excuse is based on assumptions and theories. And we know any objective person would prefer, clear cut and strong explicit proof over speculations and theories.

As for quoting any other sermon, then the discussion is not about that. And usually people loose the track and get derail by discussing the issues which arent directly related.

And I say that you are free to reject it, based on your biased perspective, but for Sunnis, we have authentic reports along with this sermon in our Books which clearly states that ABu Bakr and Umar followed Quran and Sunnah.

Quote
The derived mean is as per the understanding of people blessed with understanding and common sense. It the absurd Shia interpretation is implied into it then it becomes an oxymoron.
huh? put down the thesaurus
Seerah is basically the way a person lived. If the Khulafa rashideen lived the life against Quran and Sunnah, then asking to follow their seerah along with Quran and Sunnah, would be an oxymoron. But since you aren't even competent enough to know what exactly seerah means, you are bound to make the ridiculous argument due to your ignorance.

Pretty much everything you said was conjecture. For example, what actions of the Sheikhain were too difficult to follow? Why did they have rulings stricter than the Prophet?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: "Ali refused the sunna of Omar and Abu Bakr"
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2016, 12:17:52 AM »
Pretty much everything you said was conjecture. For example, what actions of the Sheikhain were too difficult to follow? Why did they have rulings stricter than the Prophet?
I did quote few examples in the initial explanation. And there is no need to know each and every action that was too difficult to follow, even though i can quote few more, such as Abu bakr returning all the salary he got from bait ul maal, at the time of his death, etc. What is important is the testimony of Ali himself.


، أَخْبَرَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَمَّارٍ ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَيُّوبَ ، حَدَّثَنَا عُمَرُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ، حَدَّثَنَا زَائِدَةُ بْنُ قُدَامَةَ ، حَدَّثَنَا إِسْمَاعِيلُ السُّدِّيُّ ، عَنْ عَبْدِ خَيْرٍ ، قَالَ : سَمِعْتُ عَلِيًّا رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ يَقُولُ : إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ جَعَلَ أَبَا بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرَ حُجَّةً عَلَى مَنْ بَعْدَهُمَا مِنَ الْوُلاةِ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ، فَسَبَقَا وَاللَّهِ سَبْقًا بَعِيدًا ، وَأَتْعَبَا مَنْ بَعْدَهُمَا إِتْعَابًا شَدِيدًا .

Abd Khair narrates from Ali ibn Abi Talib that, He(ra) said: Allah made Abu Bakr and Umar hujjah over the rulers till the day of judgement , By God, they have excelled everyone else greatly, and have put the ones after them into much difficulty in following them. (Asad ul Ghaba, vol 3, page 68).

So why should we overlook the clear cut testimony of Ali(ra).

ShiaMan

Re: "Ali refused the sunna of Omar and Abu Bakr"
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2016, 07:18:18 PM »
I did quote few examples in the initial explanation. And there is no need to know each and every action that was too difficult to follow, even though i can quote few more, such as Abu bakr returning all the salary he got from bait ul maal, at the time of his death, etc. What is important is the testimony of Ali himself.


، أَخْبَرَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَمَّارٍ ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَيُّوبَ ، حَدَّثَنَا عُمَرُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ، حَدَّثَنَا زَائِدَةُ بْنُ قُدَامَةَ ، حَدَّثَنَا إِسْمَاعِيلُ السُّدِّيُّ ، عَنْ عَبْدِ خَيْرٍ ، قَالَ : سَمِعْتُ عَلِيًّا رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ يَقُولُ : إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ جَعَلَ أَبَا بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرَ حُجَّةً عَلَى مَنْ بَعْدَهُمَا مِنَ الْوُلاةِ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ، فَسَبَقَا وَاللَّهِ سَبْقًا بَعِيدًا ، وَأَتْعَبَا مَنْ بَعْدَهُمَا إِتْعَابًا شَدِيدًا .

Abd Khair narrates from Ali ibn Abi Talib that, He(ra) said: Allah made Abu Bakr and Umar hujjah over the rulers till the day of judgement , By God, they have excelled everyone else greatly, and have put the ones after them into much difficulty in following them. (Asad ul Ghaba, vol 3, page 68).

So why should we overlook the clear cut testimony of Ali(ra).
Lol. So Ali who was known for his austerity thinks returning the earnings was a magnanimous act that others could not follow. I am guessing you have bought a lot of property in Chernobyl as an investment opportunity.

 

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