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Two questions

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Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Two questions
« on: April 20, 2017, 12:07:43 PM »
What would be the status of someone who favors Mu'awiyah or any other "sahabi" other than Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman, over Ali (as)?

And who is better, A'isha or Fatima (as)?

محور المقاومة والممانعة

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Two questions
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2017, 12:44:33 PM »
What would be the status of someone who favors Mu'awiyah or any other "sahabi" other than Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman, over Ali (as)?
Favouring anyone over Ali(as) doesn't effects the status of a person. It would be their personal ijtihad.


Quote
And who is better, A'isha or Fatima (as)?
I think Fatima(as) is superior to Ayesha(as).

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Two questions
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2017, 12:56:06 PM »
What would be the status of someone who favors Mu'awiyah or any other "sahabi" other than Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman, over Ali (as)?
Favouring anyone over Ali(as) doesn't effects the status of a person. It would be their personal ijtihad.


Quote
And who is better, A'isha or Fatima (as)?
I think Fatima(as) is superior to Ayesha(as).

So favoring Ali over the first two makes someone's status change, but favoring other's over Ali is just ijtihad? Hmm.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Two questions
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2017, 01:35:04 PM »
What would be the status of someone who favors Mu'awiyah or any other "sahabi" other than Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman, over Ali (as)?
Favouring anyone over Ali(as) doesn't effects the status of a person. It would be their personal ijtihad.


Quote
And who is better, A'isha or Fatima (as)?
I think Fatima(as) is superior to Ayesha(as).

So favoring Ali over the first two makes someone's status change, but favoring other's over Ali is just ijtihad? Hmm.
I know of Sahaba who favoured Ali, but their status didn't change in the view of Ahlus-sunnah. And btw which form of favouring you are talking about, please be specific.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Two questions
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2017, 03:34:02 PM »
What would be the status of someone who favors Mu'awiyah or any other "sahabi" other than Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman, over Ali (as)?
Favouring anyone over Ali(as) doesn't effects the status of a person. It would be their personal ijtihad.


Quote
And who is better, A'isha or Fatima (as)?
I think Fatima(as) is superior to Ayesha(as).

So favoring Ali over the first two makes someone's status change, but favoring other's over Ali is just ijtihad? Hmm.
I know of Sahaba who favoured Ali, but their status didn't change in the view of Ahlus-sunnah. And btw which form of favouring you are talking about, please be specific.

So if someone says "I believe Ali has a higher status than Abu Bakr and Umar" what will the Ahlul Sunnah call this guy?

A rafidhi? A kafir? An innovator?

محور المقاومة والممانعة

Mythbuster1

Re: Two questions
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2017, 03:51:23 PM »
What would be the status of someone who favors Mu'awiyah or any other "sahabi" other than Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman, over Ali (as)?
Favouring anyone over Ali(as) doesn't effects the status of a person. It would be their personal ijtihad.


Quote
And who is better, A'isha or Fatima (as)?
I think Fatima(as) is superior to Ayesha(as).

So favoring Ali over the first two makes someone's status change, but favoring other's over Ali is just ijtihad? Hmm.
I know of Sahaba who favoured Ali, but their status didn't change in the view of Ahlus-sunnah. And btw which form of favouring you are talking about, please be specific.

So if someone says "I believe Ali has a higher status than Abu Bakr and Umar" what will the Ahlul Sunnah call this guy?

A rafidhi? A kafir? An innovator?



A MUSLIM 😊

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Two questions
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2017, 04:22:32 PM »
What would be the status of someone who favors Mu'awiyah or any other "sahabi" other than Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman, over Ali (as)?
Favouring anyone over Ali(as) doesn't effects the status of a person. It would be their personal ijtihad.


Quote
And who is better, A'isha or Fatima (as)?
I think Fatima(as) is superior to Ayesha(as).

So favoring Ali over the first two makes someone's status change, but favoring other's over Ali is just ijtihad? Hmm.
I know of Sahaba who favoured Ali, but their status didn't change in the view of Ahlus-sunnah. And btw which form of favouring you are talking about, please be specific.

So if someone says "I believe Ali has a higher status than Abu Bakr and Umar" what will the Ahlul Sunnah call this guy?

A rafidhi? A kafir? An innovator?
You will be considered a person having Tashayyu. Not a rafidi or Kafir. And it doesnt effects the status of a person. We have had many narrators who had tashhayu but still were considered reliable and trustworthy in narrating hadeeth.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Two questions
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2017, 04:32:18 PM »
What would be the status of someone who favors Mu'awiyah or any other "sahabi" other than Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman, over Ali (as)?
Favouring anyone over Ali(as) doesn't effects the status of a person. It would be their personal ijtihad.


Quote
And who is better, A'isha or Fatima (as)?
I think Fatima(as) is superior to Ayesha(as).

So favoring Ali over the first two makes someone's status change, but favoring other's over Ali is just ijtihad? Hmm.
I know of Sahaba who favoured Ali, but their status didn't change in the view of Ahlus-sunnah. And btw which form of favouring you are talking about, please be specific.

So if someone says "I believe Ali has a higher status than Abu Bakr and Umar" what will the Ahlul Sunnah call this guy?

A rafidhi? A kafir? An innovator?
You will be considered a person having Tashayyu. Not a rafidi or Kafir. And it doesnt effects the status of a person. We have had many narrators who had tashhayu but still were considered reliable and trustworthy in narrating hadeeth.

Okay. But then isn't a Shi'i considered a mubtad'i?
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Hani

Re: Two questions
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2017, 04:48:49 PM »
What would be the status of someone who favors Mu'awiyah or any other "sahabi" other than Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman, over Ali (as)?

And who is better, A'isha or Fatima (as)?



There is a topic worth discussing.

We as rational human beings do not believe (in a lot of cases) that a person can be better than another person in the absolute sense.

For instance, it is VERY unlikely for me to be better than my brother in every single thing, (better shaped nose, better at math, better muscle tone, superior business skills etc...)

In the same sense, we apply this to the Companions who were average human beings, Ibn Mas`ud was top-notch in Qur'anic recitations, Khalid is an expert warrior and strategist who never lost a battle, Aba Musa possessed a majestic voice when reciting etc...

Now believe it or not, Mu`awiyah is said to be much better at government and politics than all his peers. However, to make a general statement and say Mu`awiyah is better than aba `Ubaydah, this is cartoonish and unacceptable. There are a ton of Companions who are superior to Mu`awiyah in piety, virtue, merit and earliness in answering Islam's call.

Our issue with the Twelver Imami Shia is not related to them placing `Ali over others, a few of the original Shia held this view as well as some of the Predecessors, not a problem and it isn't much different than having your favorite character in a show; it's subjective and not every character has the same appeal (I may favor `Umar for his strictness or `Uthman for his leniency).

Our issue as you know, is the attack against personalities who are viewed as most pious and beloved to the Prophet (saw) based on dubious sources and shaky stories, all the while dismissing the authentic and mass-transmitted reports.

Similarly, the question of Fatimah (as) and `A'ishah is "who is better"?

Fatimah (as) was more beloved to the Prophet (saw) as his own daughter and she had a greater place in his heart. While `A'ishah is very much loved as his wife and the mother of believers. On the other hand, `A'ishah is superior in her knowledge as one of the few early female scholars who was often sought for her verdicts while Fatimah (as) was mainly known as a devout worshiper.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Two questions
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2017, 04:55:42 PM »
What would be the status of someone who favors Mu'awiyah or any other "sahabi" other than Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman, over Ali (as)?

And who is better, A'isha or Fatima (as)?



There is a topic worth discussing.

We as rational human beings do not believe (in a lot of cases) that a person can be better than another person in the absolute sense.

For instance, it is VERY unlikely for me to be better than my brother in every single thing, (better shaped nose, better at math, better muscle tone, superior business skills etc...)

In the same sense, we apply this to the Companions who were average human beings, Ibn Mas`ud was top-notch in Qur'anic recitations, Khalid is an expert warrior and strategist who never lost a battle, Aba Musa possessed a majestic voice when reciting etc...

Now believe it or not, Mu`awiyah is said to be much better at government and politics than all his peers. However, to make a general statement and say Mu`awiyah is better than aba `Ubaydah, this is cartoonish and unacceptable. There are a ton of Companions who are superior to Mu`awiyah in piety, virtue, merit and earliness in answering Islam's call.

Our issue with the Twelver Imami Shia is not related to them placing `Ali over others, a few of the original Shia held this view as well as some of the Predecessors, not a problem and it isn't much different than having your favorite character in a show; it's subjective and not every character has the same appeal (I may favor `Umar for his strictness or `Uthman for his leniency).

Our issue as you know, is the attack against personalities who are viewed as most pious and beloved to the Prophet (saw) based on dubious sources and shaky stories, all the while dismissing the authentic and mass-transmitted reports.

Similarly, the question of Fatimah (as) and `A'ishah is "who is better"?

Fatimah (as) was more beloved to the Prophet (saw) as his own daughter and she had a greater place in his heart. While `A'ishah is very much loved as his wife and the mother of believers. On the other hand, `A'ishah is superior in her knowledge as one of the few early female scholars who was often sought for her verdicts while Fatimah (as) was mainly known as a devout worshiper.

So why do Sunni scholars say the best of the Ummah after the Prophet are the Shaykhayn? Isn't that a aqeeda of the true Ahlul Sunnah?

محور المقاومة والممانعة

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Two questions
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2017, 05:20:53 PM »
What would be the status of someone who favors Mu'awiyah or any other "sahabi" other than Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman, over Ali (as)?
Favouring anyone over Ali(as) doesn't effects the status of a person. It would be their personal ijtihad.


Quote
And who is better, A'isha or Fatima (as)?
I think Fatima(as) is superior to Ayesha(as).

So favoring Ali over the first two makes someone's status change, but favoring other's over Ali is just ijtihad? Hmm.
I know of Sahaba who favoured Ali, but their status didn't change in the view of Ahlus-sunnah. And btw which form of favouring you are talking about, please be specific.

So if someone says "I believe Ali has a higher status than Abu Bakr and Umar" what will the Ahlul Sunnah call this guy?

A rafidhi? A kafir? An innovator?
You will be considered a person having Tashayyu. Not a rafidi or Kafir. And it doesnt effects the status of a person. We have had many narrators who had tashhayu but still were considered reliable and trustworthy in narrating hadeeth.

Okay. But then isn't a Shi'i considered a mubtad'i?
Shia is a Mubtadi. And "Shia" is a generalized term, where we can find a lot of different beliefs. 

Anyways, in the last question when you clarified that you were asking about the status, then someone preferring a person other than the first three Khulafa above Ali(ra) would be considered doing a bidah, as it goes against the ijma. 

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Two questions
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2017, 05:22:18 PM »
What would be the status of someone who favors Mu'awiyah or any other "sahabi" other than Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman, over Ali (as)?
Favouring anyone over Ali(as) doesn't effects the status of a person. It would be their personal ijtihad.


Quote
And who is better, A'isha or Fatima (as)?
I think Fatima(as) is superior to Ayesha(as).

So favoring Ali over the first two makes someone's status change, but favoring other's over Ali is just ijtihad? Hmm.
I know of Sahaba who favoured Ali, but their status didn't change in the view of Ahlus-sunnah. And btw which form of favouring you are talking about, please be specific.

So if someone says "I believe Ali has a higher status than Abu Bakr and Umar" what will the Ahlul Sunnah call this guy?

A rafidhi? A kafir? An innovator?
You will be considered a person having Tashayyu. Not a rafidi or Kafir. And it doesnt effects the status of a person. We have had many narrators who had tashhayu but still were considered reliable and trustworthy in narrating hadeeth.

Okay. But then isn't a Shi'i considered a mubtad'i?
Shia is a Mubtadi. And "Shia" is a generalized term, where we can find a lot of different beliefs. 

Anyways, in the last question when you clarified that you were asking about the status, then someone preferring a person other than the first three Khulafa above Ali(ra) would be considered doing a bidah, as it goes against the ijma.

Thank you.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Rationalist

Re: Two questions
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2017, 05:34:18 PM »
The Sunnis made an ijma on who is the most superior, but in reality there is no ijma on it. I have an entire series on the topic with proof if you are interested.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Two questions
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2017, 05:37:17 PM »
The Sunnis made an ijma on who is the most superior, but in reality there is no ijma on it. I have an entire series on the topic with proof if you are interested.

Link?
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Rationalist

Re: Two questions
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2017, 08:49:06 PM »

Hani

Re: Two questions
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2017, 09:11:17 PM »

So why do Sunni scholars say the best of the Ummah after the Prophet are the Shaykhayn? Isn't that a aqeeda of the true Ahlul Sunnah?



Their evidences I assume are:

A-
The clear opinion of `Ali bin abi Talib, and a group from the Companions and followers.

B-
Many prophetic-narrations stating they're from among the best of his nation and his praise (saw) for them.

C-
Their Caliphate is praised and celebrated by the Salaf, this is accepted by many scholars as a general consensus on their greatness.

D-
That God willed for them to politically succeed then be buried right next to him (saw) is viewed as a divine sign.

E-
Reading the Seerah and prophetic-narration shows he (saw) would favor them greatly and give them precedence often.

F-
Prophetic-narrations explicitly stating they are the best of his (saw) nation. (These are disputed in terms of authenticity)

G-
Their own biographies and stories show how great they were as God fearing rulers.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Two questions
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2017, 04:27:30 AM »

So why do Sunni scholars say the best of the Ummah after the Prophet are the Shaykhayn? Isn't that a aqeeda of the true Ahlul Sunnah?



Their evidences I assume are:

A-
The clear opinion of `Ali bin abi Talib, and a group from the Companions and followers.

B-
Many prophetic-narrations stating they're from among the best of his nation and his praise (saw) for them.
I consider these two to be the main reasons.

 

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