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Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani

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iceman

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2020, 12:26:29 PM »
If authentic ahadith from masoomeen doesn't constitute evidence for you i wonder what else does?
Listen sistani is a giant scholar he says marraige did occur
Khoei the legend scholar as per Shia ,he say yes
Fadlullaha of lebonan says a yes
I can also bring classical scholar testimonies only if you seeked truth

"If authentic ahadith from masoomeen doesn't constitute evidence for you i wonder what else does?"

You're completely missing the point here. Let me explain. It's not about this or that scholar or this and that scholar, it's about the opinion of the majority of the scholars. That's the point. Because scholars do and have differed in opinion over matters and affairs. So the tale of the marriage between Umar and the youngest daughter of Ali Ibn Abi Talib is not accepted and believed by vast majority of the Shia community and its scholars.

The Shia belief and faith doesn't depend on a fatwa or statement of one or two scholars or bits and pieces from a book written by a shia scholar. Nor is that to be labelled as the view of the Shia community at large.

"Listen sistani is a giant scholar he says marraige did occur Khoei the legend scholar as per Shia ,he say yes
Fadlullaha of lebonan says a yes"

I'm listening and I don't disagree with the above. And I have a lot of respect for the above mentioned scholars. But that doesn't mean one has to believe in and accept opinion/s of a scholar/s based on historical or political matters or current affairs. Ahkaam e Shariah and matters concerning usool e deen and faroo e deen, yes, but personal opinion or view based on historical or political matters or current affairs, no. It's not necessary.

"I can also bring classical scholar testimonies only if you seeked truth"

Yes I do seek the truth and always have. But everywhere and in every matter.

iceman

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2020, 01:22:13 PM »
Allow me to add to this. I use to follow Ayatollah Khomeini in matters of taqleed until his death in 1989. If I'm still correct and my memory is still good, Ayatollah Khomeini believed that there wasn't just one natural haqeeqy daughter of Muhammad s.a.w but actually four. Ayatollah Khomeini shared and believed in the opinion and view of the Ahle Sunnah.
Now this is totally opposite and against the opinion and view of the Shia community and scholars. They believe that Muhammad s.a.w only had one natural and haqeeqy daughter. And that is Fatima who was her only daughter.

Now if some Sunni comes along and says that the Prophet s.a.w had actually 4 natural haqeeqy daughters and puts forward the opinion of Ayatollah Khomeini and wants to show on that one opinion of a mighty shia scholar that the view of the entire Shia community is wrong about Muhammad s.a.w only having one natural haqeeqy daughter then would that be right?

TAHIR

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2020, 04:01:59 PM »
I asked
Quote
. If authentic ahadith from masoomeen doesn't constitute evidence for you i wonder what else does
Shia man responded we don't believe in opinions here and their . No my friend push aside your bias  i am not talking about random cherry picked opinions. We are talking about ahadith of imams , denying them is denying Allah in your religion.
For the benifit of readers i am copying here ahadith and gradings from nadir Zaveri

Quote
.     مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى وَ غَيْرُهُ عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنِ النَّضْرِ بْنِ سُوَيْدٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ سُلَيْمَانَ بْنِ خَالِدٍ قَالَ سَأَلْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع عَنِ امْرَأَةٍ تُوُفِّيَ زَوْجُهَا أَيْنَ تَعْتَدُّ فِي بَيْتِ زَوْجِهَا تَعْتَدُّ أَوْ حَيْثُ شَاءَتْ قَالَ بَلَى حَيْثُ شَاءَتْ ثُمَّ قَالَ إِنَّ عَلِيّاً ع لَمَّا مَاتَ عُمَرُ أَتَى أُمَّ كُلْثُومٍ فَأَخَذَ بِيَدِهَا فَانْطَلَقَ بِهَا إِلَى بَيْتِهِ

From Sulaymaan bin Khaalid he said: “I asked Abaa `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) about a woman whose husband dies, where should she do her `iddah, in the house of her husband, or wherever she wants? He (عليه السلام) said: “Yes, wherever she wants”, then he (عليه السلام) said: “That `Alee (عليه السلام) brought Umm Kulthoom to his home when she became free, when `Umar died”
Source:

1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 6, pg. 115, hadeeth # 1
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Muwaththaq (Reliable)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 21, pg. 197
2.       Al-Majlisi I (Al-Majlisi’s Father) said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
à RawDah Al-Muttaqqoon, vol. 9, pg. 89
3.       Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad
à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 28
à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696


حُمَيْدُ بْنُ زِيَادٍ عَنِ ابْنِ سَمَاعَةَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ زِيَادٍ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ وَ مُعَاوِيَةَ بْنِ عَمَّارٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ سَأَلْتُهُ عَنِ الْمَرْأَةِ الْمُتَوَفَّى عَنْهَا زَوْجُهَا أَ تَعْتَدُّ فِي بَيْتِهَا أَوْ حَيْثُ شَاءَتْ قَالَ بَلْ حَيْثُ شَاءَتْ إِنَّ عَلِيّاً ع لَمَّا تُوُفِّيَ عُمَرُ أَتَى أُمَّ كُلْثُومٍ فَانْطَلَقَ بِهَا إِلَى بَيْتِهِ

From `Abd Allaah bin Sinaan and Mu`aawiyah bin `Ammaar from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام): He said: I asked about the women whose husband dies, can she do her `iddah in her house or wherever she wants? He (عليه السلام) said: “It is wherever she wants, that `Alee (عليه السلام) brought Umm Kulthoom to his home when she became free, when `Umar died”
Source:
1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 6, pg. 115, hadeeth # 2
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 21, pg. 199
2.       Al-Majlisi I (Al-Majlisi’s Father) said this hadeeth is Muwaththaq Kal-SaHeeH (Reliable like a SaHeeH (hadeeth))
à RawDah Al-Muttaqqoon, vol. 9, pg. 89


عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ سَالِمٍ وَ حَمَّادٍ عَنْ زُرَارَةَ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع فِي تَزْوِيجِ أُمِّ كُلْثُومٍ فَقَالَ إِنَّ ذَلِكَ فَرْجٌ غُصِبْنَاهُ

From Zuraarah from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) said about the marriage of Umm Kulthoom. So he (عليه السلام) said: “That this was the farj* that was forced (coerced) from us”
Source:

1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 5, pg. 346, hadeeth # 1
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 20, pg. 42
2.       Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad
à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 30
à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696
     
Do you call this cherry picking ?

TAHIR

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2020, 04:11:02 PM »
Iceman says

Quote
.   I'm listening and I don't disagree with the above. And I have a lot of respect for the above mentioned scholars. But that doesn't mean one has to believe in and accept opinion/s of a scholar/s based on historical or political matters or current affairs. Ahkaam e Shariah and matters concerning usool e deen and faroo e deen, yes, but personal opinion or view based on historical or political matters or current affairs, no. It's not necessary.
   
It isn't only these scholars many classical legends did believe in this marraige.
E.g as Nadir mentions in his article
I am copying the the two testimonies again here.

Quote
. .     
و روى أن عمر تزوج أم كلثوم بنت على عليه السلام
“And it is narrated that `Umar married Umm Kulthoom, daughter of `Alee (عليه السلام)”
Source:
1.     Al-Toosi, Al-MabsooT, vol. 4, pg. 272


Al-Shareef Al-MurtaDa (d. 436 AH) has also commented on the marriage taking place in his book, Risaa’il Al-Shareef Al-MurtaDa. And here is what he said regarding the narration of “faraj being usurped from us”. He talks about the how it is “attested” in the SaHeeH narration from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام).
ويشهد بصحته ما روي عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام
Source:
1.     Al-Shareef Al-MurtaDa, Risaa’il Al-Shareef Al-MurtaDa, pg. 148 - 150
 
     

TAHIR

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2020, 04:32:07 PM »
Here is another testimony i have some four to five more, just looking for scans before pass them on
Qazi nurullaha shustari says the marraige did occur

For now just focus on the key principle of dispute
 If their exeists  dispute between scholars we return to ahadith and they clearly decide the matter for us and we have seen above what ahadith say
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 04:40:02 PM by TAHIR »

iceman

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2020, 04:50:02 PM »
I asked Shia man responded we don't believe in opinions here and their . No my friend push aside your bias  i am not talking about random cherry picked opinions. We are talking about ahadith of imams , denying them is denying Allah in your religion.
For the benifit of readers i am copying here ahadith and gradings from nadir Zaveri
Do you call this cherry picking ?

Another valid point I'd like to make here. And you're telling me that the Imams along with their families, relatives, friends, followers and supporters weren't facing persecution and lock down. They weren't facing house arrest or imprisoned. There were no torture or killings. There were no bans or limits on them to preach and teach or on freedom of speech and expression.

You accuse then and certain Shias believed that there was a period and time of silence, patience and tolerance based on taqqiyah and keeping a low profile, you sure that things weren't said or shown to be accepted then and in those days to save themselves and others from unnecessary loss of life and belongings.

People in those days turned Sunni and even kept names of their children based on the names of companions and the Prophet's s.a.w wives in taqqiyah to save themselves from persecution. People kept away from the Imams to again save themselves from persecution. That's why the Imams didn't have much support or to go by. People ruled and governed by heavy handed tactics and by means of violence and threatening behaviour especially towards the Ahle Baith and their followers and supporters.

iceman

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2020, 05:14:07 PM »
Here is another testimony i have some four to five more, just looking for scans before pass them on
Qazi nurullaha shustari says the marraige did occur

For now just focus on the key principle of dispute
 If their exeists  dispute between scholars we return to ahadith and they clearly decide the matter for us and we have seen above what ahadith say

Don't look at this through one eye only. Look at it from all sides. Is this the view of the vast majority of the Shia scholars and the community at large. That's what we need to look at. I have no problem if this marriage actually took place or with Umar ibn Al Khattab. Hadiths and narrations have been tampered with after the death of the Prophet s.a.w. There was a ban on hadiths. Some were either exaggerated or fabricated. And some were made up. Bukhari and Muslim rejected alot of hadiths due to them not being authentic or reliable. What does this tells us. That hadiths were being invented or messed about with by those in government and in charge.

Now tell me this why on earth was Fatima too young for Umar and Abu Bakr when they asked the Prophet s.a.w for her hand in marriage. But her 4th child wasn't. Why didn't Ali marry Zaynab who was older than Qalsoom to Umar. Or why didn't Umar ask Ali for Zaynab. When something is put forward or you come across look at it with sense and logic. Discuss it with logic and reason.

TAHIR

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2020, 05:53:04 PM »
Another valid point I'd like to make here. And you're telling me that the Imams along with their families, relatives, friends, followers and supporters weren't facing persecution and lock down. They weren't facing house arrest or imprisoned. There were no torture or killings. There were no bans or limits on them to preach and teach or on freedom of speech and expression.

You accuse then and certain Shias believed that there was a period and time of silence, patience and tolerance based on taqqiyah and keeping a low profile, you sure that things weren't said or shown to be accepted then and in those days to save themselves and others from unnecessary loss of life and belongings.

People in those days turned Sunni and even kept names of their children based on the names of companions and the Prophet's s.a.w wives in taqqiyah to save themselves from persecution. People kept away from the Imams to again save themselves from persecution. That's why the Imams didn't have much support or to go by. People ruled and governed by heavy handed tactics and by means of violence and threatening behaviour especially towards the Ahle Baith and their followers and supporters.


Nothing relevant

iceman

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2020, 05:58:40 PM »

Nothing relevant

It's relevant. And you know it. You just don't have an answer to it. I'm not just a debater but a technical debater. I turn things upside down and really examine them well.

TAHIR

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2020, 06:03:12 PM »
It's relevant. And you know it. You just don't have an answer to it. I'm not just a debater but a technical debater. I turn things upside down and really examine them well.
If it wasn't for you being much older than me i was to mock this. I really don't know the relevance please help me understanding the relevance of this quote be as brief as possible ,i have to address one more post of yours also

iceman

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2020, 06:07:45 PM »
If it wasn't for you being much older than me i was to mock this. I really don't know the relevance please help me understanding the relevance of this quote be as brief as possible ,i have to address one more post of yours also

Don't worry. You will start to learn and understand as we further discuss and engage on this.

Forget about mocking and take a look at this. I'm looking at it now and will examine the it.

https://youtu.be/TsOlJV0B3A0
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 06:09:21 PM by iceman »

TAHIR

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2020, 06:29:31 PM »
Don't worry. You will start to learn and understand as we further discuss and engage on this.

Forget about mocking and take a look at this. I'm looking at it now and will examine the it.

https://youtu.be/TsOlJV0B3A0
Not watching the video ,present the relevant points. Here ,i have answered all the website material you presented till now ,now i cant go after all the videos also.

Prove the relevance or your post else i may proceed

TAHIR

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2020, 06:39:08 PM »
Quote
.
  Don't look at this through one eye only. Look at it from all sides. Is this the view of the vast majority of the Shia scholars and the community at large. That's what we need to look at. I have no problem if this marriage actually took place or with Umar ibn Al Khattab. Hadiths and narrations have been tampered with after the death of the Prophet s.a.w. There was a ban on hadiths. Some were either exaggerated or fabricated. And some were made up. Bukhari and Muslim rejected alot of hadiths due to them not being authentic or reliable. What does this tells us. That hadiths were being invented or messed about with by those in government and in charge.
   
Response we are only being consistent, we accept ahadith have weak strong and even fabrications in them
However your scholars have a system of gradation, and we just apply same here we are not suggesting anything new my friend.it is authentic on the same standards as you grade any other hadith through. If this isn't authentic then the whole hadith coarpse of shia also falls

TAHIR

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2020, 06:48:14 PM »
Quote
.Now tell me this why on earth was Fatima too   .     young for Umar and Abu Bakr         when they asked the Prophet s.a.w for her hand in marriage. But her 4th child wasn't.     
The part young for Abu Bakr and Umar isn't in the hadith , what is present is , Prophet (s.a.w) said she is young .
1. A father may with hold marraige of his child if he likes ,as rusoolulallaha (s.a.w) did in this case If he finds convinient he may marry his daughter as early as he likes as rasoolullaha (s.a.w) married Aisha (r.a) ...
2. For this argument to be made ,you should be able to tell us age of Fatima (r.a) at the time of proposal and age of umm kulthum at the time of proposal
As we proved earlier the latter isn't know so falls your argument flat
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 06:49:30 PM by TAHIR »

iceman

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2020, 06:58:09 PM »
Not watching the video ,present the relevant points. Here ,i have answered all the website material you presented till now ,now i cant go after all the videos also.

Prove the relevance or your post else i may proceed

The video is about a lecture from the following manner.

Sayed Moustafa Al-Qazwini is an Islamic religious leader. Al-Qazwini can allegedly trace his lineage forty-two generations back to Muhammad. He is the son of Ayatollah Sayed Mortadha Al Qazwini and the brother of Sayed Hassan Al-Qazwini.

No ordinary individual or scholar here mate. And he is speaking about and addressing the exact and same subject related to this thread. Don't. Worry I'll post more references for you. I'll discuss all points and matters on this. We'll have it out. No worries.


iceman

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2020, 07:14:04 PM »
The part young for Abu Bakr and Umar isn't in the hadith , what is present is , Prophet (s.a.w) said she is young .
1. A father may with hold marraige of his child if he likes ,as rusoolulallaha (s.a.w) did in this case If he finds convinient he may marry his daughter as early as he likes as rasoolullaha (s.a.w) married Aisha (r.a) ...
2. For this argument to be made ,you should be able to tell us age of Fatima (r.a) at the time of proposal and age of umm kulthum at the time of proposal
As we proved earlier the latter isn't know so falls your argument flat

"The part young for Abu Bakr and Umar isn't in the hadith , what is present is , Prophet (s.a.w) said she is young"

Notice this bit,

"what is present is , Prophet (s.a.w) said she is young"

After this Fatimah got married. How many years after this. You do the maths. Then after getting married Fatimah had 4 children. Qalsoom was the youngest out of the 4. How long would this be. But she wasn't young for the same man Umar. Then another question pops up, Why didn't Umar ask for the elderly daughter Zaynab or get married to her. For heavens sake use some aql if nothing else. Bring some logic and reason to it than just believing in something blindly.

"1. A father may with hold marraige of his child if he likes ,as rusoolulallaha (s.a.w)"

If the father of Fatima withheld it for the reason given then there absolutely no question about Umar marrying the 4th child of Ali on the same grounds since there is a huge difference. Ali is Nafs e Rassool and wouldn't differ with the Prophet s.a.w. And the huge age and time gap doesn't even bring it into question let alone happen.

"he may marry his daughter as early as he likes as rasoolullaha (s.a.w) married Aisha (r.a) ..."

This is something we strongly disagree with as well. The Prophet s.a.w did not marry Aisha at that young age. These are fabricated stories that have been created and brought about by certain individuals and characters just to deem it permissible to marry young and under age girls.

"For this argument to be made ,you should be able to tell us age of Fatima (r.a) at the time of proposal and age of umm kulthum at the time of proposal
As we proved earlier the latter isn't know so falls your argument flat"

I'm glad you've said that. No it doesn't mate. Infact it falls on you. You believe this marriage took place. Yes. When did it take place. Who read the nikah. What was the age of Umar and Qalsoom binte Ali. Why did it take place. And why is this a disputed argument then between the Muslims. It falls on you mate. Would you like to adresss it where others have failed.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 07:24:47 PM by iceman »

TAHIR

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2020, 08:21:21 PM »
Quote
.    The part young for Abu Bakr and Umar isn't in the hadith , what is present is , Prophet (s.a.w) said she is young"

Notice this bit,

"what is present is , Prophet (s.a.w) said she is young"

After this Fatimah got married. How many years after this. You do the maths. Then after getting married Fatimah had 4 children. Qalsoom was the youngest out of the 4. How long would this be. But she wasn't young for the same man Umar. Then another question pops up, Why didn't Umar ask for the elderly daughter Zaynab or get married to her. For heavens sake use some aql if nothing else. Bring some logic and reason to it than just believing in something blindly.

"1. A father may with hold marraige of his child if he likes ,as rusoolulallaha (s.a.w)"

If the father of Fatima withheld it for the reason given then there absolutely no question about Umar marrying the 4th child of Ali on the same grounds since there is a huge difference. Ali is Nafs e Rassool and wouldn't differ with the Prophet s.a.w. And the huge age and time gap doesn't even bring it into question let alone happen.
   
Ist of all lete give you some context of permissibl marraige  ages in shia madhab before we move further
Abu Jaffar al tusi says :
Doing mutah isnt permissible without walis permission unless the girl is mature if she is above 9 no problem.
So below 9 you require walis permission and above 9 all ok
2. Wahid Khorasani says
Ok doing mutah ,with a saghirah except for intercourse
3.Khomayni says ok marrying a suckling babe

With that out of way now we can talk about the narration
There are two ways looking at it
1. Sunni perspective
We believe in this NARRATION and so we also believe in al Bukhari and we can contextualise both and we say withholding young girls from marraige isn't a general rule .
2. Shia perspective:
They will reject bukhari hadith as fabrication
And will only accept one hadith where prophet (s.a.w) said she is young fornand will still accuse sunnis of clutching to bits and pieces.
Why do you believe in the hadith where proposal of ar and Abu Bakr (r.a) wasn't accepted ?
Is that present in your books ??
And your kind of interpretation of that was true ,why does your fiqh say otherwise as i have demonstrated above .
the maths you failed understanding the point Fatimah (r.a) if e.g dhe was 6 at the time of proposal , and her daughter was 12 at the time umar proposed (assuming) , so the argument that she was young and so must be her daughter is a nonsense.
Quote
.I'm glad you've said that. No it doesn't mate. Infact it falls on you. You believe this marriage took place. Yes. When did it take place. Who read the nikah. What was the age of Umar and Qalsoom binte Ali. Why did it take place. And why is this a disputed argument then between the Muslims. It falls on you mate. Would you like to adresss it where others have failed.
   
It isn't on me ,in which book of logic it is written that to affirm an event occurred ,one requires to know the age of all the characters taking part in the event?
May be as brother Hani said somewhere else ,next you will ask which food was served in the waleemah?
We don't know who read khutbah of Abdur Rehman Ibn awfs nikah ,does it mean he didn't marry , we don't know what was his age then , does it mean they didn't marry
My question to you ,do you know the age of your great grandfather at the time he married?
But your argument is entirely based on age comparison of Fatimah and umm kulthum so you require proving your stuff mr technical debator
The reason it is disputed between shias is because they can't submit to the fact that imam al Masoom (a.s) was father in law of Umar  whom they have been projecting his great enemy


« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 08:24:24 PM by TAHIR »

muslim720

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2020, 03:40:14 AM »
I'm not just a debater but a technical debater.

Yes, every Shi'i is a "technical" debater, motivated by their endless fables of one Imam (ra) or his representative refuting tens of Sunnis at once.  When these "technical" debaters present themselves on a public platform, outside their echo chambers, they are more "vesical" than "technical" and get pissed on.



Quote
I turn things upside down and really examine them well.

If only you had some brain cells to have prevented you from making such an ignorant comment which you thought was a compliment.  This is like saying, "I approach milk as being black and really examine it from there on".
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2020, 02:48:41 PM »
Ist of all lete give you some context of permissibl marraige  ages in shia madhab before we move further
Abu Jaffar al tusi says :
Doing mutah isnt permissible without walis permission unless the girl is mature if she is above 9 no problem.
So below 9 you require walis permission and above 9 all ok
2. Wahid Khorasani says
Ok doing mutah ,with a saghirah except for intercourse
3.Khomayni says ok marrying a suckling babe

With that out of way now we can talk about the narration
There are two ways looking at it
1. Sunni perspective
We believe in this NARRATION and so we also believe in al Bukhari and we can contextualise both and we say withholding young girls from marraige isn't a general rule .
2. Shia perspective:
They will reject bukhari hadith as fabrication
And will only accept one hadith where prophet (s.a.w) said she is young fornand will still accuse sunnis of clutching to bits and pieces.
Why do you believe in the hadith where proposal of ar and Abu Bakr (r.a) wasn't accepted ?
Is that present in your books ??
And your kind of interpretation of that was true ,why does your fiqh say otherwise as i have demonstrated above .
the maths you failed understanding the point Fatimah (r.a) if e.g dhe was 6 at the time of proposal , and her daughter was 12 at the time umar proposed (assuming) , so the argument that she was young and so must be her daughter is a nonsense.It isn't on me ,in which book of logic it is written that to affirm an event occurred ,one requires to know the age of all the characters taking part in the event?
May be as brother Hani said somewhere else ,next you will ask which food was served in the waleemah?
We don't know who read khutbah of Abdur Rehman Ibn awfs nikah ,does it mean he didn't marry , we don't know what was his age then , does it mean they didn't marry
My question to you ,do you know the age of your great grandfather at the time he married?
But your argument is entirely based on age comparison of Fatimah and umm kulthum so you require proving your stuff mr technical debator
The reason it is disputed between shias is because they can't submit to the fact that imam al Masoom (a.s) was father in law of Umar  whom they have been projecting his great enemy

"Ist of all lete give you some context of permissibl marraige  ages in shia madhab before we move further"

I follow the Qur'an and what goes with it. Books written by Shias or Sunnis can be looked at and examined. It's got nothing to do with the age factor. It's not just puberty that when a girl or a boy hits puberty then they can get married regardless of anything else been looked at and brought into account. Mental maturity and having basic sense and logic and understating about right and wrong and how to protect yourself and your rights along with knowing what is in your best interest and what is beneficial for you and what isn't also counts.

I do not believe that fathers or parents can marry off their daughters to whom ever they please as soon as they reach puberty without their consent and without them having the necessary knowledge and information about their rights and who they're getting themselves involved with and what they're getting themselves into.

"With that out of way now we can talk"

There is nothing in the way. So there's no need to get anything out of the way.

"Abu Jaffar al tusi says :
Doing mutah isnt permissible without walis permission unless the girl is mature if she is above 9 no problem.
So below 9 you require walis permission and above 9 all ok
2. Wahid Khorasani says
Ok doing mutah ,with a saghirah except for intercourse
3.Khomayni says ok marrying a suckling babe"

First of all lets not take anything out of context. Put forward the actual material and lets have a look at it. Second is it compulsory on me as a Shia to accept and believe in every single thing a Shia Scholar has to say? It doesn't matter who said and what they said and why they said it I have to accept and believe it?

"1. Sunni perspective
We believe in this NARRATION and so we also believe in al Bukhari and we can contextualise both and we say withholding young girls from marraige isn't a general rule"

That's fine. I have no objection or beef with your perspective. But it's not compulsory on me to even accept any bit or piece of any Shia Scholar or book let alone having your perspective shoved down my throat.

"And will only accept one hadith where prophet (s.a.w) said she is young"

Ok, I'll look at the actual hadith. If you can put it forward then that will be good. Any idea about roughly what was the age of Fatima when Umar asked for her hand in marriage and the Prophet s.a.w replied "she is too young"?

If she didn't hit puberty at the time then Umar most definitely wouldn't be asking. And if you agree that her age was of puberty and the Prophet s.a.w replied by saying "she is too young" then we'll have to accept that puberty ain't enough. Other factors also need to be looked at and brought into account when we speak about marriage.

Marriage is a serious business based on responsibility and commitment. A lot falls into it. And a lot needs to be considered. It's not just about puberty and sexual intercourse.

"Why do you believe in the hadith where proposal of ar and Abu Bakr (r.a) wasn't accepted"

Are you saying the Shaykhain weren't interested? Forget about me don't you believe in the hadith? Have you got doubts about it? It's widely accepted, isn't it? Or is their a dispute amongst the Ahle Sunnah over it?

"May be as brother Hani said somewhere else ,next you will ask which food was served in the waleemah?"

If Hani said that then that is being silly or getting silly based on it being a cheap response in a desperate attempt to keep up in an argument. I probably would expect that from these types of Sunnis.

"We don't know who read khutbah of Abdur Rehman Ibn awfs nikah ,does it mean he didn't marry"

No it doesn't mean that. This is exactly your problem that you want to start bringing in different meanings. My response is, is there a dispute over Abdur Rehman Ibn Awf's Nikah? Was there a known dispute over if Abdur Rehman Ibn Awf marrying so and so? If there was then there would be absolutely no harm in asking important questions relating to the argument. My response here is an example of technical ability when it comes to discussions.

"My question to you ,do you know the age of your great grandfather at the time he married?"

My response, is it necessary for me to know or for you to ask? Is there a dispute amongst the Ummah of my great grandfather's marriage? That's another example of technical ability in discussions and debates. If there's a dispute then let me know where and by whom then I'll most definitely get you the dates. I'm well equipped. I've worked on myself over the years. Don't want to blow my own trumpet. I'm just a normal person.

"The reason it is disputed between shias is because they can't submit to the fact that imam al Masoom (a.s) was father in law of Umar  whom they have been projecting his great enemy"

Imam e Masoom wasn't the father in law of Umar. The Prophet s.a.w did consider himself to be the father in law of Umar. So how would Nafs e Rassool be. (Anna wa aliyun min noor e wahid).

The fact of the matter is that this story like many others were created just as a counter argument to deny that there was any beef or unrest between the Ahle Baith and the Shaykhain.

And I say that with all due respect towards the Shaykhain and all the sahaba (raa).

"But your argument is entirely based on age comparison of Fatimah and umm kulthum so you require proving your stuff mr technical debator"

My argument is based on a disputed matter and is asking questions related to and concerning the matter.

 

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