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Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani

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Soccer

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #60 on: April 11, 2020, 02:55:19 PM »
To give up what is for certain for what is doubtful is evil.
By the name of God, the (universally) Compassionate, The (extremely) Compassionate; for the unity of the Togetherness; Is their unity in the travels in the winter and summer. So let them Worship the Lord of this household. The one who fed them from hunger and gave them security from fear.

iceman

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #61 on: April 11, 2020, 04:33:40 PM »
Ok, give me the dates. When was Qalsoom binte Ali born. When did she get married to Umar ibn Al Khattab. What was the age of Umar when he married her. When did Umar die. How long did he serve as Caliph.

TAHIR

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #62 on: April 11, 2020, 05:09:47 PM »
To give up what is for certain for what is doubtful is evil.
I hope it isn't addressed to me or is it??

TAHIR

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #63 on: April 11, 2020, 05:23:25 PM »
Ok, give me the dates. When was Qalsoom binte Ali born. When did she get married to Umar ibn Al Khattab. What was the age of Umar when he married her. When did Umar die. How long did he serve as Caliph.
1.Born : most probably 6 hijjri
2. Married during Khilafah of Umar (r.a) dont know specific age
3. Could be around 50 since he was martyred
4. At age of 62
4. Till his martyrdom
You are trying all you can to play number games sociologist games and all you can just to nullify your books

iceman

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #64 on: April 12, 2020, 07:42:22 AM »
1.Born : most probably 6 hijjri
2. Married during Khilafah of Umar (r.a) dont know specific age
3. Could be around 50 since he was martyred
4. At age of 62
4. Till his martyrdom
You are trying all you can to play number games sociologist games and all you can just to nullify your books

I'm not trying anything. The way you sound is that you're trying to avoid getting caught up in going down the road that it didn't happen. That's how you sound and how it looks like. I'm not playing the number game nor do I use or play the majority game with those who are in minority compared to us. This is a disputed matter. And in a disputed matter you have a right to ask any questions related to that matter to those who you dispute it with. If you don't want to accept civil law based on rights then that's up to you.

Umar asked for Fatima's hand in marriage, the Prophet s.a.w replied by saying "she is too young". This means that the marriage can't happen because she is too young for you and you are too old for her. If we take the meaning of young that she has not hit puberty yet then this is absolutely wrong that Umar is asking for someone who is a child and hasn't reached puberty yet. It's an insult on Umar and his character.

And mental maturity and understanding about your rights and responsibilities along with education and knowledge is still yet to be brought into question and discussed. It's the Qur'an we suppose to follow not bits and pieces from here and there that suit out belief and understanding.

Is marriage more serious and the understanding, responsibility and commitment or driving a car? Those Islamic governed countries and their scholars, what age can you start driving and hold a driving licence from? Have a look at this. I mean have a serious look at it. When it comes to driving you have to be 18 years of age. In some countries may be 16 but in majority of the countries be it Muslim governed or not it is 18.

When it comes to car insurance and safety of driving, that is the protection of yourself, your vehicle and others around you when you are our and about, the insurance is very high for under 25s.Especially under 21s. Some insurance providers don't even insure under 21s. Ever thought why? And that's getting behind the wheel of a car. How about getting behind the wheel of marriage?

It's not just puberty but many other factors need to be considered such as mental health/condition and maturity..Having the understanding, knowing the responsibility and being familiar about your rights and the rights of others along with other necessary and important things need to be considered before getting behind the wheel of marriage and holding a licence. And in this case it's a marriage license.

Scholars have said things just to safeguard and protect either themselves and those that are related to them to save themselves of persecution or to safeguard and protect those in history and the decisions they made at the time. Otherwise you're undermining them and putting them in a bad position.

So Fatwas and statements, from be it Shia scholars who have either looked at persecution in those days or unity amongst Muslims in these days or to protect Sunni important figures or be it Sunni scholars looking at protecting and safeguarding companion or certain rulers of that time, is something we need to look at and understand before we accept and pass judgment.

iceman

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #65 on: April 12, 2020, 07:54:33 AM »
We ahl u sunnah have a consensus that father can marry his daughter of he finds convinient
https://www.google.com/amp/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/178318
That's only assuming umm kulthum had not reached puberty yet which you have no evidence for .
I am attaching tusis quote
Where he says ,you can marry a women before she is a baligha without his father's permission , provided you don't plan intercourse if you plan that also then ask father's permission

But what about her permission. What about her choice. What about her desire. Is this an individual who happens to be a woman so therefore she either doesn't have any feelings and emotions or she has no right to her feelings and emotions just because she is a female and being a Muslim and in Islam girls and women are just there to serve men and boys. That's what they're there for and that is the only reason and purpose for their creation. Sounds like a male sauvanist society or ideology if that's the case.

Keeping in mind that all these Fatwas and rulings come from scholars who all happen to be males. Tell me what knowledge and understanding do they have about females. He says she must do this, he says she must be that, he says she can't do this, he says she can't do that etc etc and etc. It's all about he and it's all about him. Is this Islam and is this what we Muslims be it Shia or Sunni are all about.

iceman

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #66 on: April 12, 2020, 08:09:21 AM »
It is authentic hadith from infallible shia imam
Short term memory loss you suffer from already showed you sahih bukhari hadith and it doesn't always have to be in six books of hadith and however what should be relevant to you is , is the hadith in any of shia authentic books which we proved already.You didn't brought one point yet which i didn't answer if something is leftover bring it on.This is authentic hadith from your imam al Masoom Ice man you should rather say your imam has no sense of decency in saying this and your scholars have no sense that of decency in authenticating this is not from Sunni book this is from Shia book ,i had given the link also .
So imam al Masoom isn't  one among the thaqalayn any more
Is authentic ahadith from imam al masoom and act of marraige of prophet (s.a.w) with Aisha(r.a) as narrated authentically in al kafi not a sunnah
Think before speaking iceman, you are ripping apart shaiaism today

"It is authentic hadith from infallible shia imam"

Ok, so why did the Imam say it. Was this said under normal and basic circumstances. Or was it said under extreme conditions and pressure. Have you read the history of each shia Imam and what they had to go through and put up with based on persecution. Or was this said just to keep Sunni Scholars somewhat happy by not harming or damaging the reputation unintentionally of Sunni important figures of history like what certain Shia scholars do nowadays. After all its all about building peace and harmony and trying to keep it. And you have to pay a price for this. We'll someone has to.

"Short term memory loss you suffer from already showed you sahih bukhari hadith and it doesn't always have to be in six books of hadith"

Short term memory loss? Did you get in touch with my doctor. Or are you familiar with my medical records. This is exactly what is the problem with you people that you go by assumptions, what you assume or think. If it's not that then it's sarcasm what you rely on. It's not memory loss but too much being put forward by too many.

iceman

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #67 on: April 12, 2020, 08:20:25 AM »
Al Milani is a hypocrite after acknowledgeing the hadith is authentic he turns blind eye to it
You shias always hounded excuses to shadow this burn ,some said Ali (r.a) was forced to it .
Some said a Jinni wasade in place of umm kulthum....
And some play with number games.

You are a being idiot , where does it say she was born in 9 hijri ? In Bukhari ? Bring the hadith .
Did you forget what you said earlierAnything to deny this wow!!

No refrence who cares (for her being in karballaha or her dying in 50 hijri aor Ibn Abbas and sad Ibn Waqas offering funeral )

"Al Milani is a hypocrite"

Well so must be Mustafa Al Qazwini who also rejects and refutes this tale. And the majority who agree with them. They all must be hypocrites apart from a few who side with you over this.

Well there you go mate. Either it's hypocrisy who disagrees with you or its unreliable and not authentic what disagrees with you.

"You shias always hounded excuses to shadow this burn ,some said Ali (r.a) was forced to it .
Some said a Jinni wasade in place of umm kulthum....
And some play with number games"

We don't look for excuses. Everybody has their own opinion and view about things. And that is not the opinion and view of the entire Shia community or part of the entire Shia faith and must not be taken as such we you lot are trying your best to do.

iceman

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #68 on: April 12, 2020, 08:32:28 AM »
Not watching the video present the points here and we shall talk.
Already explained it ,the hadith doesn't say too young for them , rather it simply says she was young and i have already explained sunni perspective of understanding those narrations , why do you believe in this narration though ,sunni texts don't mean anything to you but mashallah you will frame an opinion about a hadith which you don't believe in .
For you al kafi shoulder have been a sufficient evidence,but you are only concerned what nasai says ,what mishkat says and they say nothing in your aid though such a pathetic your stubbornness is .
Rather it is you who have to prove impermssiblity burden of evidence is upon whom who makes the argument.
Ali married widow of Abu Bakr so she was step.mother of Aisha and Fatimah was daughter of Aisha (r.a) so Ali by your logic married his mother in laws mother ?

Note only blood relations and foster relations make marraige prohibited. Step sister stepol mother step grand daughter etc don't prove any relations .

Already refuted nothing authentic here as already proven above, don't bother us with same quotes after we have refuted them once

"Rather it is you who have to prove impermssiblity burden of evidence is upon whom who makes the argument.
Ali married widow of Abu Bakr so she was step.mother of Aisha and Fatimah was daughter of Aisha (r.a) so Ali by your logic married his mother in laws mother ?"

Rather than wasting your time trying to okay tit for tat who was the wife of Abu Bakr or how many wives and children did he have. Care to name them. Because if I bring things forward then either they're not accepted for one reason or another or its tit for tat. Did Abu Bakr have a daughter by the name of Qalsoom or not. Did we have other women by the name of Qalsoom or not.

The main point is Fatima the mother of Qalsoom was young for Umar. Then when Fatima got married and had 4 children 2 boys then 2 girls, the first girl isn't in question anywhere but Umar was interested in the second. And she wasn't young for him. If Umar burnt the door of Fatima and she got injured then why did Ali marry his daughter to him, this is exactly why this tale was created. As a counter argument. Because that's what we've got and have been getting, the tale is being used as a counter argument.

TAHIR

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #69 on: April 12, 2020, 10:56:59 AM »
I'm not trying anything. The way you sound is that you're trying to avoid getting caught up in going down the road that it didn't happen. That's how you sound and how it looks like. I'm not playing the number game nor do I use or play the majority game with those who are in minority compared to us. This is a disputed matter. And in a disputed matter you have a right to ask any questions related to that matter to those who you dispute it with. If you don't want to accept civil law based on rights then that's up to you.

Umar asked for Fatima's hand in marriage, the Prophet s.a.w replied by saying "she is too young". This means that the marriage can't happen because she is too young for you and you are too old for her. If we take the meaning of young that she has not hit puberty yet then this is absolutely wrong that Umar is asking for someone who is a child and hasn't reached puberty yet. It's an insult on Umar and his character.

And mental maturity and understanding about your rights and responsibilities along with education and knowledge is still yet to be brought into question and discussed. It's the Qur'an we suppose to follow not bits and pieces from here and there that suit out belief and understanding.

Is marriage more serious and the understanding, responsibility and commitment or driving a car? Those Islamic governed countries and their scholars, what age can you start driving and hold a driving licence from? Have a look at this. I mean have a serious look at it. When it comes to driving you have to be 18 years of age. In some countries may be 16 but in majority of the countries be it Muslim governed or not it is 18.

When it comes to car insurance and safety of driving, that is the protection of yourself, your vehicle and others around you when you are our and about, the insurance is very high for under 25s.Especially under 21s. Some insurance providers don't even insure under 21s. Ever thought why? And that's getting behind the wheel of a car. How about getting behind the wheel of marriage?

It's not just puberty but many other factors need to be considered such as mental health/condition and maturity..Having the understanding, knowing the responsibility and being familiar about your rights and the rights of others along with other necessary and important things need to be considered before getting behind the wheel of marriage and holding a licence. And in this case it's a marriage license.

Scholars have said things just to safeguard and protect either themselves and those that are related to them to save themselves of persecution or to safeguard and protect those in history and the decisions they made at the time. Otherwise you're undermining them and putting them in a bad position.

So Fatwas and statements, from be it Shia scholars who have either looked at persecution in those days or unity amongst Muslims in these days or to protect Sunni important figures or be it Sunni scholars looking at protecting and safeguarding companion or certain rulers of that time, is something we need to look at and understand before we accept and pass judgment.
You are actually Plaing games ,you hunted all websites to see if any amount of trash can help you and Alhamdulillah , nothing equal to an atoms weight of argument have you brought till now

Quote
.  Umar asked for Fatima's hand in marriage, the Prophet s.a.w replied by saying "she is too young". This means that the marriage can't happen because she is too young for you and you are too old for her. If we take the meaning of young that she has not hit puberty yet then this is absolutely wrong that Umar is asking for someone who is a child and hasn't reached puberty yet. It's an insult on Umar and his character.
 

Why do you ignore the responses already given
1. Why do you bother about this hadith is it present in shia books
Assuming it was even relevant to you
1. If withholding girls from marraige at a very young age was a general rule why did Prophet (s.a.w) marry Aisha(r.a) at young age as we have proven from Shia books already.
2.if Fatimah (r.a) was 6 e.g and her daughter was 12 the argument she is young so must be her daughter is a complete faliure.

Quote
.       .    we take the meaning of young that she has not hit puberty yet then this is absolutely wrong that Umar is asking for someone who is a child and hasn't reached puberty yet. It's an insult on Umar and his character 

Ist of all will you consider this quote of khoei as an insult to his character
"
Code: [Select]
it is ok to enjoy a sagheera for to enter upon her she should be mature 10.And this quote of khomayni
Code: [Select]
it is ok placing privates between thighs of a suckling babes And this quote of tusi
Code: [Select]
you require permission of walii if girl is under 9 for intercourse and for plain enjoyment not requiredAnd this hadith of imam Masoom
Code: [Select]
don't have intercourse with your wife untill she turns 10Incase you play the taqiyyah card and say these statements where all under oppression
We ask two questions
1. Khoei and khomayni hadn't Wahabis at their necks
2. If imams where under oppression,they must have cleared the issue at a favourable time, or will you like to argue they where always under oppression so all of the shia hadith become useless
3.do you have any scholar who says a clear no to all of what we said above?
That destroys your crap inshallah

TAHIR

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #70 on: April 12, 2020, 11:20:53 AM »
Quote
.   .   Rather than wasting your time trying to okay tit for tat who was the wife of Abu Bakr or how many wives and children did he have. Care to name them. Because if I bring things forward then either they're not accepted for one reason or another or its tit for tat. Did Abu Bakr have a daughter by the name of Qalsoom or not. Did we have other women by the name of Qalsoom or not.
 
Simply irrelevant because hadith , clearly says umm kulthum bint Ali
And Jaffar Sadiq says
umm kulthum was an honor taken away from us
Don't yell nonsense here .i was to refute your step granddaughter excuse which i did bi hamd lillah.

Quote
.
The main point is Fatima the mother of Qalsoom was young for Umar. Then when Fatima got married and had 4 children 2 boys then 2 girls, the first girl isn't in question anywhere but Umar was interested in the second. .
   
The problem is your argument would be valid if we where to assume umar(r.a) was on a watch oh zainab (r.a) the first daughter of Ali is born ,i must ask for marraige now ,it is now or never.....
This is called stupidity my friend got it ??
The point of time the thought marrying one daughter of Ali came to umar (r.a), why can't zaynab (r.a) be already engaged .
Arguing against established ahadith by whims and opinions such a nonsense you are.


Quote
.    If Umar burnt the door of Fatima and she got injured then why did Ali marry his daughter to him, this is exactly why this tale was created. As a counter argument. Because that's what we've got and have been getting, the tale is being used as a counter argument. 
You exactly mentioned your problem infact you guys want to push forth the burning of door story , whatever opposes you guys deny .
This is in authentic shia hadith my friend why the hell are you denying your own ahadith.




TAHIR

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #71 on: April 12, 2020, 11:31:44 AM »
"It is authentic hadith from infallible shia imam"

Ok, so why did the Imam say it. Was this said under normal and basic circumstances. Or was it said under extreme conditions and pressure. Have you read the history of each shia Imam and what they had to go through and put up with based on persecution. Or was this said just to keep Sunni Scholars somewhat happy by not harming or damaging the reputation unintentionally of Sunni important figures of history like what certain Shia scholars do nowadays. After all its all about building peace and harmony and trying to keep it. And you have to pay a price for this. We'll someone has to.

"Short term memory loss you suffer from already showed you sahih bukhari hadith and it doesn't always have to be in six books of hadith"

Short term memory loss? Did you get in touch with my doctor. Or are you familiar with my medical records. This is exactly what is the problem with you people that you go by assumptions, what you assume or think. If it's not that then it's sarcasm what you rely on. It's not memory loss but too much being put forward by too many.

Quote
. Ok, so why did the Imam say it. Was this said under normal and basic circumstances. Or was it said under extreme conditions and pressure. Have you read the history of each shia Imam and what they had to go through and put up with based on persecution. Or was this said just to keep Sunni Scholars somewhat happy by not harming or damaging the reputation unintentionally of Sunni important figures of history like what certain Shia scholars do nowadays. After all its all about building peace and harmony and trying to keep it. And you have to pay a price for this. We'll someone has to.
 
Idiocy of highest level
1. If imams where lying to save themselves here ,how many shia scholars said this hadith was under pressure
2. If imams made an incorrect statement publicly , wasn't it necessary to clarify it at a favourable occasion??
Do you have such a Hadith ??

Quote
. Short term memory loss? Did you get in touch with my doctor. Or are you familiar with my medical records. This is exactly what is the problem with you people that you go by assumptions, what you assume or think. If it's not that then it's sarcasm what you rely on. It's not memory loss but too much being put forward by too many.
   

This is idiocy next level ,the guy brings ist tababqat ibn sad quote saying she was born 6 hijri
Latter he says well i was being an idiot now bukhari says 9 hijri is d.o.b
We say you are still being idiot bukhari doesn't say so .
Why Ice man why ,why do you have to embarrass yourself?
Why are you acting blind brother.


TAHIR

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #72 on: April 12, 2020, 11:36:45 AM »
"Al Milani is a hypocrite"

Well so must be Mustafa Al Qazwini who also rejects and refutes this tale. And the majority who agree with them. They all must be hypocrites apart from a few who side with you over this.

Well there you go mate. Either it's hypocrisy who disagrees with you or its unreliable and not authentic what disagrees with you.

"You shias always hounded excuses to shadow this burn ,some said Ali (r.a) was forced to it .
Some said a Jinni wasade in place of umm kulthum....
And some play with number games"

We don't look for excuses. Everybody has their own opinion and view about things. And that is not the opinion and view of the entire Shia community or part of the entire Shia faith and must not be taken as such we you lot are trying your best to do.

Quote
.Al Milani is a hypocrite"

Well so must be Mustafa Al Qazwini who also rejects and refutes this tale. And the majority who agree with them. They all must be hypocrites apart from a few who side with you over this.

Well there you go mate. Either it's hypocrisy who disagrees with you or its unreliable and not authentic what disagrees with you.
     
Yes exactly Milani is a hypocrite he says the hadith of Umar marrying umm kulthum is authentic ,then thinks he is more knowledgeable than imams and denies it is that hypocrisy or what else you call it .
Qaznawi or Milani whoever denies an authentic hadith from imam is a hypocrite.
Quote
.  We don't look for excuses. Everybody has their own opinion and view about things. And that is not the opinion and view of the entire Shia community or part of the entire Shia faith and must not be taken as such we you lot are trying your best to do 
Yes you do exactly and you have been all the time

iceman

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #73 on: April 13, 2020, 12:11:03 PM »
You are actually Plaing games ,you hunted all websites to see if any amount of trash can help you and Alhamdulillah , nothing equal to an atoms weight of argument have you brought till now

Why do you ignore the responses already given
1. Why do you bother about this hadith is it present in shia books
Assuming it was even relevant to you
1. If withholding girls from marraige at a very young age was a general rule why did Prophet (s.a.w) marry Aisha(r.a) at young age as we have proven from Shia books already.
2.if Fatimah (r.a) was 6 e.g and her daughter was 12 the argument she is young so must be her daughter is a complete faliure.

Ist of all will you consider this quote of khoei as an insult to his character
"
Code: [Select]
it is ok to enjoy a sagheera for to enter upon her she should be mature 10.And this quote of khomayni
Code: [Select]
it is ok placing privates between thighs of a suckling babes And this quote of tusi
Code: [Select]
you require permission of walii if girl is under 9 for intercourse and for plain enjoyment not requiredAnd this hadith of imam Masoom
Code: [Select]
don't have intercourse with your wife untill she turns 10Incase you play the taqiyyah card and say these statements where all under oppression
We ask two questions
1. Khoei and khomayni hadn't Wahabis at their necks
2. If imams where under oppression,they must have cleared the issue at a favourable time, or will you like to argue they where always under oppression so all of the shia hadith become useless
3.do you have any scholar who says a clear no to all of what we said above?
That destroys your crap inshallah

"You are actually Plaing games ,you hunted all websites to see if any amount of trash can help you and Alhamdulillah , nothing equal to an atoms weight of argument have you brought till now"

I'll ask you once again, this tale is disputed amongst the Muslims. It's a disputed case and this is the court that it's in. You are trying to prove that this marriage did take place. The evidence you're putting forward is reports from a handful of Shia Scholars who claim the marriage took place. Why do they believe it took place, there's absolutely nothing on that. But they just believe it took place because lets say certain Shia Imam said it took place.

Again nothing being talked about let alone being discussed on the facts and nature of the marriage that why it took place, when it took place, how it took place, where it took place etc etc etc and etc. These are vital and important matters in a disputed case and can't be ignored or over looked. This ain't enough in a disputed matter that a handful of Shias believe it took place to get the majority to accept.

And when I put references forward of known and recognised Shia scholars who believe it didn't take place giving their reasons either you don't want to look into it or you accuse them of hypocrisy. Way to go I say.

"If withholding girls from marraige at a very young age was a general rule why did Prophet (s.a.w) marry Aisha(r.a) at young age as we have proven from Shia books already"

It's something that the majority of the Shias don't accept. We don't believe that these things actually like the Prophet s.a.w marrying Aisha at a very young age. Certain rulers after Muhammad s.a.w or members of the government did and were engaged in a lot of things then hadiths as such were created to justify and put some weight behind what they did and got up to.

"Fatimah (r.a) was 6 e.g and her daughter was 12 the argument she is young so must be her daughter is a complete faliure"

I've already addressed this but I'll do it again. Umar asked the Prophet s.a.w for Fatima's hand in marriage. The Prophet s.a.w rejected by saying "she is young". Now what does this means? Well there's two meanings to it. Nothing more than that. So it ain't complicated. And lets not make it complicated.

Either Fatima didn't reach puberty which would be wrong and anti Islamic or against any religion and civilised community to begin with. Don't you think Umar would have asked a known female to enquire first if she reached puberty or not before asking.

Or it could mean that the Prophet s.a.w rejected on the grounds that she is young for Umar looking at the immense age gap. The matter isn't complicated but definitely disputed. You're making it complicated by not accepting the other side of the argument.

"Ist of all will you consider this quote of khoei as an insult to his character
"
Code: [Select]
it is ok to enjoy a sagheera for to enter upon her she should be mature 10." and the other quotes you've mentioned.

Let me explain this to you. Listen carefully. Certain Shia Imams might have said things based on unfortunate circumstances and times they were facing, the tough conditions and harsh situations they were up against to protect their followers and supporters from persecution.

Or certain Shia Imams or high ranking Shia scholars of the past and present might have said something or might say something just to protect the honour, character and personality of certain individuals of the past who Ahle Sunnah hold very important and dear to themselves, in the name of Muslims unity that is itehad bainal muslimeen, just to keep peace and harmony and to promote it.

iceman

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #74 on: April 13, 2020, 01:08:50 PM »
Yes exactly Milani is a hypocrite he says the hadith of Umar marrying umm kulthum is authentic ,then thinks he is more knowledgeable than imams and denies it is that hypocrisy or what else you call it .
Qaznawi or Milani whoever denies an authentic hadith from imam is a hypocrite.Yes you do exactly and you have been all the time

"Yes you do exactly and you have been all the time"

And I feel the same about you that you're looking for excuses to justify that the marraige took place. How? By completely rejecting everything I'm putting forward. So where does that leave us if the feeling and words are mutual. Tell me this, do the vast majority of the Shia scholars regardless of their rank and status accept that the marriage took place? You give me a clear answer to this in yes or no. Do the vast majority of the Shia community believe that the marriage took place? You give me a clear answer to this in yes or no.

iceman

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #75 on: April 13, 2020, 03:37:39 PM »
Idiocy of highest level
1. If imams where lying to save themselves here ,how many shia scholars said this hadith was under pressure
2. If imams made an incorrect statement publicly , wasn't it necessary to clarify it at a favourable occasion??
Do you have such a Hadith ??

This is idiocy next level ,the guy brings ist tababqat ibn sad quote saying she was born 6 hijri
Latter he says well i was being an idiot now bukhari says 9 hijri is d.o.b
We say you are still being idiot bukhari doesn't say so .
Why Ice man why ,why do you have to embarrass yourself?
Why are you acting blind brother.

First of all lets clear this.

In Islam, Taqiya or Taqiyya (Arabic: تقیة‎ taqiyyah, literally "prudence, fear") is a precautionary dissimulation or denial of religious belief and practice in the face of persecution. A related term is Kitmān (lit. "action of covering, dissimulation"), which has a more specific meaning of dissimulation by silence or omission.

This practice is emphasized in Shia Islam whereby adherents are permitted to conceal their religion when under threat of persecution or compulsion. The practice is much less prominent in Sunni Islam, but may be permitted under certain circumstances such as threats to life (though martyrdom in such instances is still regarded as more honourable).

Taqiyya was initially practiced under duress by some of Muhammad's Companions. Later, it became particularly important for Shias due to their experience as a persecuted religious minority. According to Shia doctrine, taqiyya is permissible in situations where there is overwhelming danger of loss of life or property and where no danger to religion would occur thereby. Taqiyya has also been politically legitimised, particularly among Twelver Shias, in order to maintain unity among Muslims and fraternity among the Shia clerics.

"If imams where lying to save themselves here ,how many shia scholars said this hadith was under pressure"

Taqiyyah isn't lying. Learn and get to know the difference. If you do then there's no need to create mischief. Lying is dishonesty and taqiyyah is to conceal. Lying is to hide the truth based on dishonesty. And taqiyyah is to conceal the truth based on protecting it. The purpose of lying is to protect the guilty and or the crime or culprit. The purpose of taqiyyah is to protect the truth or people from unnecessary harm or hurt. That's the difference.

We all know the history of the Shia Imams and what they had to go through or were put through along with their families, followers and supporters.

"If imams made an incorrect statement publicly"

It wasn't an INCORRECT STATEMENT but a CORRECT STATEMENT looking at the circumstances of the time if any statements were made. Each matter needs to be looked at and considered. You  can't pick up something and just take it at face value. A lot needs to be examined and considered.

"wasn't it necessary to clarify it at a favourable occasion?"

It depends on the matter and nature of what it is. Also the circumstances and conditions surrounding it.

"Why Ice man why ,why do you have to embarrass yourself?
Why are you acting blind brother"

I'm not embarrassing myself nor do I act blind. I have an open mind about things. I also think rationally. You don't in my opinion. I've put information forward just to share with you and others. Something I'm looking into. If you disagree with that info and want to refute it then please do so. Don't make a dance about it.

iceman

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #76 on: April 13, 2020, 05:20:55 PM »
You are actually Plaing games ,you hunted all websites to see if any amount of trash can help you and Alhamdulillah , nothing equal to an atoms weight of argument have you brought till now

Why do you ignore the responses already given
1. Why do you bother about this hadith is it present in shia books
Assuming it was even relevant to you
1. If withholding girls from marraige at a very young age was a general rule why did Prophet (s.a.w) marry Aisha(r.a) at young age as we have proven from Shia books already.
2.if Fatimah (r.a) was 6 e.g and her daughter was 12 the argument she is young so must be her daughter is a complete faliure.

Ist of all will you consider this quote of khoei as an insult to his character
"
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it is ok to enjoy a sagheera for to enter upon her she should be mature 10.And this quote of khomayni
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it is ok placing privates between thighs of a suckling babes And this quote of tusi
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you require permission of walii if girl is under 9 for intercourse and for plain enjoyment not requiredAnd this hadith of imam Masoom
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don't have intercourse with your wife untill she turns 10Incase you play the taqiyyah card and say these statements where all under oppression
We ask two questions
1. Khoei and khomayni hadn't Wahabis at their necks
2. If imams where under oppression,they must have cleared the issue at a favourable time, or will you like to argue they where always under oppression so all of the shia hadith become useless
3.do you have any scholar who says a clear no to all of what we said above?
That destroys your crap inshallah

"Incase you play the taqiyyah card and say these statements where all under oppression"

THE TAQIYYAH CARD? This card was first used by Muhammad s.a.w before he declared his Messenger status. He was a Messenger before he declared it. Not declaring it means concealing it. That is taqiyyah. When people started to show interest in Islam or started to accept Islam they faced persecution from the Mushriks and Kafirs of Mecca. Some took on the taqiyyah card.

"We ask two questions
1. Khoei and khomayni hadn't Wahabis at their necks"

Yes but they were both believers and supporters of unity amongst Muslims itehad bainal muslimeen. Did Khoei ever challenge and take on the tyrant and dictator Saddam. Why did Khomeini issue a fatwa that there was not only one but 4 natural haqeeqy daughters of Muhammad s.a.w? When the absolute and clear cut belief of the Shias is the Muhammad s.a.w only had one daughter?

So it's not just only about persecution. Many other things fall into perspective.

"2. If imams where under oppression,they must have cleared the issue at a favourable time, or will you like to argue they where always under oppression so all of the shia hadith become useless"

It depends on whether the Imams made a statement based on Taqqiyah and that is to save themselves and others from unnecessary loss and harm or because they wanted to protect personalities and individuals who were extremely important to others based on unity amongst the Muslims. It needs to be looked at. Something shouldn't be taken at face value. Islamic history along with narrations have been tampered with. Members of different governments that came about, regardless of what position they held, got up to a lot of things.

"3.do you have any scholar who says a clear no to all of what we said above?
That destroys your crap inshallah"

Yes. There are plenty and many. But you either label them as hypocrites or engineered. The same excuse and allegation is used for those Sunni scholars who I put forward that don't share your thought and opinion over a matter or don't agree with your view over an issue.

TAHIR

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #77 on: April 15, 2020, 08:09:41 AM »
First of all lets clear this.

In Islam, Taqiya or Taqiyya (Arabic: تقیة‎ taqiyyah, literally "prudence, fear") is a precautionary dissimulation or denial of religious belief and practice in the face of persecution. A related term is Kitmān (lit. "action of covering, dissimulation"), which has a more specific meaning of dissimulation by silence or omission.

This practice is emphasized in Shia Islam whereby adherents are permitted to conceal their religion when under threat of persecution or compulsion. The practice is much less prominent in Sunni Islam, but may be permitted under certain circumstances such as threats to life (though martyrdom in such instances is still regarded as more honourable).

Taqiyya was initially practiced under duress by some of Muhammad's Companions. Later, it became particularly important for Shias due to their experience as a persecuted religious minority. According to Shia doctrine, taqiyya is permissible in situations where there is overwhelming danger of loss of life or property and where no danger to religion would occur thereby. Taqiyya has also been politically legitimised, particularly among Twelver Shias, in order to maintain unity among Muslims and fraternity among the Shia clerics.

"If imams where lying to save themselves here ,how many shia scholars said this hadith was under pressure"

Taqiyyah isn't lying. Learn and get to know the difference. If you do then there's no need to create mischief. Lying is dishonesty and taqiyyah is to conceal. Lying is to hide the truth based on dishonesty. And taqiyyah is to conceal the truth based on protecting it. The purpose of lying is to protect the guilty and or the crime or culprit. The purpose of taqiyyah is to protect the truth or people from unnecessary harm or hurt. That's the difference.

We all know the history of the Shia Imams and what they had to go through or were put through along with their families, followers and supporters.

"If imams made an incorrect statement publicly"

It wasn't an INCORRECT STATEMENT but a CORRECT STATEMENT looking at the circumstances of the time if any statements were made. Each matter needs to be looked at and considered. You  can't pick up something and just take it at face value. A lot needs to be examined and considered.

"wasn't it necessary to clarify it at a favourable occasion?"

It depends on the matter and nature of what it is. Also the circumstances and conditions surr.

"Why Ice man why ,why do you have to embarrass yourself?
Why are you acting blind brother"

I'm not embarrassing myself nor do I act blind. I have an open mind about things. I also think rationally. You don't in my opinion. I've put information forward just to share with you and others. Something I'm looking into. If you disagree with that info and want to refute it then please do so. Don't make a dance about it.

Quote
. In Islam, Taqiya or Taqiyya (Arabic: تقیة‎ taqiyyah, literally "prudence, fear") is a precautionary dissimulation or denial of religious belief and practice in the face of persecution. A related term is Kitmān (lit. "action of covering, dissimulation"), which has a more specific meaning of dissimulation by silence or omission.

This practice is emphasized in Shia Islam whereby adherents are permitted to conceal their religion when under threat of persecution or compulsion. The practice is much less prominent in Sunni Islam, but may be permitted under certain circumstances such as threats to life (though martyrdom in such instances is still regarded as more honourable).

Taqiyya was initially practiced under duress by some of Muhammad's Companions. Later, it became particularly important for Shias due to their experience as a persecuted religious minority. According to Shia doctrine, taqiyya is permissible in situations where there is overwhelming danger of loss of life or property and where no danger to religion would occur thereby. Taqiyya has also been politically legitimised, particularly among Twelver Shias, in order to maintain unity among Muslims and fraternity among the Shia clerics. 
Not discussing taqiyyah here.

Quote
. It wasn't an INCORRECT STATEMENT but a CORRECT STATEMENT looking at the circumstances of the time if any statements were made. Each matter needs to be looked at and considered. You  can't pick up something and just take it at face value. A lot needs to be examined and considered.
     
Look at the idiot
Imam says Umar married umm kulthum
The idiot choses not to believe it
But imam made a correct statement also
You are sick .
Quote
.  wasn't it necessary to clarify it at a favourable occasion?"

It depends on the matter and nature of what it is. Also the circumstances and conditions surrounding it   

Again i am losing my temper over the purposeful crap that you r putting forth
Imam said umar married umm kulthum
Now it is necessary clarifying that .
You are really spitting whatever breads in your mind.

Quote
.
I'm not embarrassing myself nor do I act blind. I have an open mind about things. I also think rationally. You don't in my opinion. I've put information forward just to share with you and others. Something I'm looking into. If you disagree with that info and want to refute it then please do so. Don't make a dance about it.   

Nope my dear you are the one doing all the dance here and i am bored with that by now.
You Posted in every single website you could dig up. And of no avail
First you say umar is portrayed a bad way
I refuted
Then you say , dates are confusing i refuted
Now your only lone excuse is marraige requires her to be much grown up.
my challenge, respond to this only instead of writing newspapers, show us one Shia scholar who says parents can't give children in marraige before puberty.

Quote
.  Taqiyya has also been politically legitimised, particularly among Twelver Shias, in order to maintain unity among Muslims and fraternity among the Shia clerics.
   
The same khoei who didn't mind saying sunnis are najis (impure) the same khomayni who barked on aaisha (r.a) didn't care about Muslim faternity but ,when he was asked about can a man enjoy a child before puberty he suddenly becomes thoughtful of Muslim faternity ,which sunni scholar says ok pentrating a girl between thighs ,for khomayni to imitate sunnis for faternity .?



TAHIR

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #78 on: April 15, 2020, 08:16:15 AM »
"Yes you do exactly and you have been all the time"

And I feel the same about you that you're looking for excuses to justify that the marraige took place. How? By completely rejecting everything I'm putting forward. So where does that leave us if the feeling and words are mutual. Tell me this, do the vast majority of the Shia scholars regardless of their rank and status accept that the marriage took place? You give me a clear answer to this in yes or no. Do the vast majority of the Shia community believe that the marriage took place? You give me a clear answer to this in yes or no.
What the hell did you brought fort Sunan nasai hadeeth which you don't believe in yourself,but want to save your religion just on that basis.
Till 4th century no shia scholar rejected this .
Latter some of them developed this set of excuses
My question are authentic hadith from.infallibles nothing,this only shows how biased your scholars have been latter on .

TAHIR

Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Reply #79 on: April 15, 2020, 08:28:07 AM »
"Incase you play the taqiyyah card and say these statements where all under oppression"

THE TAQIYYAH CARD? This card was first used by Muhammad s.a.w before he declared his Messenger status. He was a Messenger before he declared it. Not declaring it means concealing it. That is taqiyyah. When people started to show interest in Islam or started to accept Islam they faced persecution from the Mushriks and Kafirs of Mecca. Some took on the taqiyyah card.

"We ask two questions
1. Khoei and khomayni hadn't Wahabis at their necks"

Yes but they were both believers and supporters of unity amongst Muslims itehad bainal muslimeen. Did Khoei ever challenge and take on the tyrant and dictator Saddam. Why did Khomeini issue a fatwa that there was not only one but 4 natural haqeeqy daughters of Muhammad s.a.w? When the absolute and clear cut belief of the Shias is the Muhammad s.a.w only had one daughter?

So it's not just only about persecution. Many other things fall into perspective.

"2. If imams where under oppression,they must have cleared the issue at a favourable time, or will you like to argue they where always under oppression so all of the shia hadith become useless"

It depends on whether the Imams made a statement based on Taqqiyah and that is to save themselves and others from unnecessary loss and harm or because they wanted to protect personalities and individuals who were extremely important to others based on unity amongst the Muslims. It needs to be looked at. Something shouldn't be taken at face value. Islamic history along with narrations have been tampered with. Members of different governments that came about, regardless of what position they held, got up to a lot of things.

"3.do you have any scholar who says a clear no to all of what we said above?
That destroys your crap inshallah"

Yes. There are plenty and many. But you either label them as hypocrites or engineered. The same excuse and allegation is used for those Sunni scholars who I put forward that don't share your thought and opinion over a matter or don't agree with your view over an issue..

Quote
.  date=1586794855]
"Incase you play the taqiyyah card and say these statements where all under oppression"

THE TAQIYYAH CARD? This card was first used by Muhammad s.a.w before he declared his Messenger status. He was a Messenger before he declared it. Not declaring it means concealing it. That is taqiyyah. When people started to show interest in Islam or started to accept Islam they faced persecution from the Mushriks and Kafirs of Mecca. Some took on the taqiyyah card.     
No Muhammad (s.a.w) never said a thing while himself believing opposite ,you blasphemous idiot. Means you will go Even on attacking Muhammad (s.a.w) just to deny this marraige you idiot.
Quote
.  depends on whether the Imams made a statement based on Taqqiyah and that is to save themselves and others from unnecessary loss and harm or because they wanted to protect personalities and individuals who were extremely important to others based on unity amongst the Muslims. It needs to be looked at. Something shouldn't be taken at face value. Islamic history along with narrations have been tampered with. Members of different governments that came about, regardless of what position they held, got up to a lot of things.   
If imam has said an incorrect information ,while being infallible ,who on the earth will correct that you?
Quote
.   3.do you have any scholar who says a clear no to all of what we said above?
That destroys your crap inshallah"

Yes. There are plenty and many. But you either label them as hypocrites or engineered. The same excuse and allegation is used for those Sunni scholars who I put forward that don't share your thought and opinion over a matter or don't agree with your view over an issue   
Show me one scholar who says parents can't marry away their children before a you age before spitting nonsense here

 

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