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What's the benefit of believing in Imamate?

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Bolani Muslim

What's the benefit of believing in Imamate?
« on: August 17, 2015, 06:47:56 PM »
Salaam guys, I was listening to a speech by the local Shia mullah a while back (when I was in my 'confused' state) and he said "Just as Nabis (non-law giving prophets) came after Rasools (law-giving prophets) to protect the religion, something similar must be needed to protect the religion of the most important Prophet (saw)." At the time it made sense, but now it's got me wondering. Since Shias have quite a few differences in Fiqh and HUGE differences in Aqeedah, what's the purpose of them? Shias have issues on even the most basic issues like:
* how to say adhan,
*were to put hands during prayer
*jumah
and issues on extremely important matters such as the authenticity and level of corruption of Quran, and more!
Considering that their were TWELVE imams with the job of 'Protecting' Islam and keeping Islam 'Pure', then they certainly didn't do a good job :p. Heck, Sunnis have only 23 years of the history of the Prophet (saw) on their side, while Shias have (I believe) ~150 years of both the Prophet (saw) AND Imams yet they're more confused then us, lol!

Shia_student

Re: What's the benefit of believing in Imamate?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2015, 07:09:10 PM »
You are weak in your logic. No wonder you couldn't stick around with the truth.

By your logic, may I ask, why do the Sunnis differ, when the Prophet had left behind a complete Quran and a perfect Sunnah?

The reason why they differ is because additions and subtractions have crept in, though Islam in itself is pure as left by the Prophet.

The Imams protected the pure religion, like the Prophets but additions and subtractions have also crept into the Shia reports, whether pertaining to the commentary of the Quran or the the Sunnah of the Prophet. Such are the reasons of differences, not because Islam was not protected.

As to what took place after the occultation of the twelve Imams, then that's an area beyond your logic. You couldn't even grasp a simple matter, let alone something very deep.




Khaled

Re: What's the benefit of believing in Imamate?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2015, 08:11:22 PM »
You are weak in your logic. No wonder you couldn't stick around with the truth.

By your logic, may I ask, why do the Sunnis differ, when the Prophet had left behind a complete Quran and a perfect Sunnah?

Its unfortunate that you insulted the brother's logic when you seemed to not understand it.  Regular Muslims acknowledge that our scholars are humans and that there is room for differences and reinterpretations, and that's one of the (many) reasons Islam is so attractive.  On the other hand, we are told that what makes 12ersim better than regular Islam is that you guys have the truth 100% of the time because you have an Imam who protects the religion.  Considering that 12ers make up less than 10% of the Ummah, all while having more differences of opinion among them then the regular Muslims (including some very dangerous fundamental issues) makes the brother question what the benefit of this supposes protector of the religion?

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The reason why they differ is because additions and subtractions have crept in, though Islam in itself is pure as left by the Prophet.

This is one of the reasons regular Muslims use to explain the differences between us; this does not, unfortunately, work in the case of 12ers since they are supposed to have the pure Islam with them.

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The Imams protected the pure religion, like the Prophets but additions and subtractions have also crept into the Shia reports, whether pertaining to the commentary of the Quran or the the Sunnah of the Prophet. Such are the reasons of differences, not because Islam was not protected.

If the Imams protected the religion, but the information was not, then what is the point of the Imam?  This is what we keep harping on and on about بارك الله فيك.  Shi'as claim that they have the "protected" and "pure" version of Islam, yet it seems like what they mean is, their Mehdi has this version of Islam and he is hiding it until he can come out.  This leaves the Shi'as the problem of relying on fallible men to teach them their religion until the Mehdi comes out of hiding.  The bigger problem is that the 12ers who narrate from the Imam are 80-90% unknown, and those who are known, are considered deviants even according to the 12ers.  That is quite a problematic method أحسن الله إليك.

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As to what took place after the occultation of the twelve Imams, then that's an area beyond your logic. You couldn't even grasp a simple matter, let alone something very deep.

This is the unfortunate problem that keeps Shi'as from reaching the truth, their arrogance.  What you are doing, is you are claiming that this concept is beyond our mere understanding, setting yourself up as the person who truly has the understanding.  What this does, is create a situation where you will never concede on any point no matter how much it is clear you are wrong.  Everything is "behind a veil" or "beyond your simple Wahhabi understanding" and all kinds of attacks.  Instead of logically showing us using the science of logic and kalam, instead you just insult us.
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Al Dukhan

Re: What's the benefit of believing in Imamate?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2015, 08:27:42 PM »
@shia_student, Islam's guide =12th imam is underground plz wait he will come out with Quran & Iman for you people ! Till then relax and hold onto uthmaniya Quran & do qiyaz from it and proof everything suits for shia sect. 

Bolani Muslim

Re: What's the benefit of believing in Imamate?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2015, 09:13:48 PM »
Thanks brother Shia_Student for agreeing with me that 120 years of imamate hasn't been a help to 'the madhab of truth'. Now will you answer my question when I asked about what's the point of imamate when it's led to more confusion and division then the Ahlul Sunnah (who didn't have any 'diving guidance' after the Prophet). Since the job of the 12 imams was to keep Islam 'Pure', yet their 'followers' are more divided and confused then the 'guide-less' Ahlul Sunnah.

PS, Nice save by calling me stupid instead of actually answering, lol!

Bro Khaled: Funny how the followers of the 'School Ahlul Bayt' tend to have the worst Akhlaq and issues with their ego :D. Not my first time being insulted, and I doubt my last, it shows me who's the true followers of Ahlul Bayt (ra) and who's not.

Shia_student

Re: What's the benefit of believing in Imamate?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2015, 09:51:40 PM »
@ Khaled

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Its unfortunate that you insulted the brother's logic when you seemed to not understand it.

I called it weak because of its flawed nature in my view. No intent to insult.

He made it out be that the Shia's were more confused than the Sunnis though they had Imams to protect the religion.

I argued, the differences could arise in any age, even if the truth was protected. It's  how one perceives  the truth. The Sahabah differed on many issues even when they had lived during the Prophet's time.

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Regular Muslims acknowledge that our scholars are humans and that there is room for differences and reinterpretations, and that's one of the (many) reasons Islam is so attractive.

We believe in the same thing, thanks.

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On the other hand, we are told that what makes 12ersim better than regular Islam is that you guys have the truth 100% of the time because you have an Imam who protects the religion.

The truth will exists in all ages, and Islam will be protected from alterations, but that does not mean the differences will not creep in. Such a thing was possible during the Prophet's time too and changes did occur, the differences did arise.


[qoute]Considering that 12ers make up less than 10% of the Ummah, all while having more differences of opinion among them then the regular Muslims (including some very dangerous fundamental issues) makes the brother question what the benefit of this supposes protector of the religion?[/quote]

It is untrue that the Shia's have more differences than the Sunnis. Besides, such things cannot be counted on fingers for the brother to conclude on that mattter. It's nothing more than an assumption.

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If the Imams protected the religion, but the information was not, then what is the point of the Imam?

Whatever the case, the truth has been preserved. The solutions have been given. It is up to us how we work with them. To answer your question, what is the point of the Imam, then I'll say, in a nutshell, the point of the Imam changed after the 11 Imams, to teach the Sunnis a lesson due to their disobedience and non recognition of the divinely selected Imams and the most of the Shias for not strictly following them. The latter had let them down when the Imams needed them. Both parties were at fault, the Sunnis did the most damage.

We have changed our fate by being ungrateful to the favours of Allah.

You may not understand the issue, since what I have stated was in a nutshell or that it may clash with your preconceived views and beliefs.

Anyway, not my topic to go into at the moment. Perhaps another time.

It was just a one off reply to the brother, who was mocking us.

Do pardon me, you have raised many other issues. I do not like speaking about multi various things all in one go. It's a waste of time. It's good to discuss one  specific point at a time. Do excuse me, from further replies. Wana use my time on the topic of the 12 successors with Farid.

Thank you for your response.

Aba AbdAllah

Re: What's the benefit of believing in Imamate?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2015, 09:57:52 PM »
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I argued, the differences could arise in any age, even if the truth was protected. It's  how one perceives  the truth. The Sahabah differed on many issues even when they had lived during the Prophet's time.
Where there any differences in Aqeedah?

Shia_student

Re: What's the benefit of believing in Imamate?
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2015, 10:21:17 PM »
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PS, Nice save by calling me stupid instead of actually answering, lol!

I stated your logic was weak. Didn't categorically call you stupid.

And I did answer you. Seems your eye sight is weak too. Now don't take that as an offence or claim that I called you blind. :)

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Bro Khaled: Funny how the followers of the 'School Ahlul Bayt' tend to have the worst Akhlaq and issues with their ego . Not my first time being insulted, and I doubt my last, it shows me who's the true followers of Ahlul Bayt (ra) and who's not.

You talk about Akhlaq whilst mocking others? Look at your reaction after your comment:

"...while Shias have (I believe) ~150 years of both the Prophet (saw) AND Imams yet they're more confused then us, lol!"

I didn't see the Prophet laughing out loud against his opponents, did you?

Incase you didn't know, laughing at the beliefs of others is equivalent to mocking them.

Don't throw stones at my house, when your own house is made out of glass.

Hadrami

Re: What's the benefit of believing in Imamate?
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2015, 11:02:52 PM »
The Imams protected the pure religion, like the Prophets but additions and subtractions have also crept into the Shia reports, whether pertaining to the commentary of the Quran or the the Sunnah of the Prophet. Such are the reasons of differences, not because Islam was not protected.

Shia believe the only person who can prevent "additions and subtractions" are infallibles, but they themselves have confused the shia scholars by adding & subtracting things into shia reports due to their taqiyah. How do you explain that?

Ebn Hussein

Re: What's the benefit of believing in Imamate?
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2015, 11:04:48 PM »
You are weak in your logic. No wonder you couldn't stick around with the truth.

Twelverism might be the truth to you, to Bolani and many Ex-Shias, including myself it's noting but illogical nonsense and a collection of the worst heresies gathered in one Madhab. So keep your 'truth' for yourself, nobody wants it here, trust me.

By your logic, may I ask, why do the Sunnis differ, when the Prophet had left behind a complete Quran and a perfect Sunnah?

Sunnis do not differ on their last infallible guide which is the Prophet (saws). A few crazy imposter Prophets emerged after the Prophets (saws) demise, none of them were taken serious, they were all crushed and most Muslims don't even know their names. Whereas the very foundation of Shiism that sets it apart from islam is such a mess that the greatest of your "infallible" Imams' students apostated (!) from 12erism and died upon a religion other than 12erism due to being confused who the 12 infallibles are. Read more and educate yourself about the Waqifiyyah and Fathiyyah to realise the disaster that the cancer called Shiism has produced. Just a glimpse into the mess:

Zurarah bin A3yun, being one of the leading companions of both Imams Baqir and Sadiq died, without knowing the identity of the new Imam. He did send his son, Ubaidullah from Kufah to Madinah, to inquire about the new Imam, but was overtaken by death. At the time of his death, he placed the Quran on his chest and said: "O Allah I testify to follow anyone whose Imamate was established by this Book." Imagine a Sunnism being as confusing in their core belief of Prophethood that a major Prophet of the Final Messenger is confused about his him being a Prophet and rejects believing in is Prophethood! Do we have any such sect in history?! Your clown of a major narrator and companion of TWO infallibles did NOT believe in the Imamat of Al-Ridha, he was confused in a matter that Shias claim is as clear as the sun and everywhere in the Qur'an (acc. to their esoterical/batini tafsirs). And people like you know even better playing around with 12 Caliph hadith ... but HUGE numbers of your top scholars and narrators (as major Shia scholars admitted) where so confused that man of them left Shiism altogether and became Sunnis!

As to what took place after the occultation of the twelve Imams, then that's an area beyond your logic. You couldn't even grasp a simple matter, let alone something very deep.

Beyond logic? You Shia often sound like Christians (Jesus saved mankind/Hussein saved mankind/Islam). It's like a Christian saying you can't grasp the simple matters, let alone trinity. We know that both of you say such things because you know how illogical your beliefs are (and if they are so "deep", then they are not made for mankind anyway, they must have been made for some esoterical elite who need 1012 mathematical formulas to explain and prove Imamah and trinity).

As for logic: The most ridicolous and unlogical belief (that could have been produced in Bollywood) is where 4 thieves ("Baabs") claimed to be the representatives of the 12th kid Imam (who nobody has seen and whose mother is unknown!) in order to collect the Khums of the gullible Shias (your Ayatullats do that to this very day in the name of the hidden cellar boy) claiming that "they" see him and that he soon gonna disappear (but not to quickly, not until they collected enough moonies).  That's logic I guess, and whoever rejects such fairy tales must be a Nasibi/simpleton etc.


It is untrue that the Shia's have more differences than the Sunnis. Besides, such things cannot be counted on fingers for the brother to conclude on that mattter. It's nothing more than an assumption.


In fact it is absolutely true. I guess you know better then Al-Toosi , who confessed to something that no scholar of any sect ever did:

http://gift2shias.com/2013/06/09/the-boss-of-the-shia-sect-al-toosi-many-people-left-our-sect-due-to-all-the-contradicting-hadiths/

You see the mess? Show me a single sect, heck, even Khariji that has ever produced such a mess.





« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 11:21:54 PM by Ebn Hussein »
الإمام الشافعي رحمه الله
لم أر أحداً من أهل الأهواء أشهد بالزور من الرافضة! - الخطيب في الكفاية والسوطي.

Imam Al-Shafi3i - may Allah have mercy upon him - said: "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Rafidah." [narrated by Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi/Al-Kifayah]

Khaled

Re: What's the benefit of believing in Imamate?
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2015, 12:14:36 AM »
@ Khaled

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Its unfortunate that you insulted the brother's logic when you seemed to not understand it.

I called it weak because of its flawed nature in my view. No intent to insult.

He made it out be that the Shia's were more confused than the Sunnis though they had Imams to protect the religion.

But thats the truth isn't it?  You guys have infallible Imams.

Quote
I argued, the differences could arise in any age, even if the truth was protected. It's  how one perceives  the truth. The Sahabah differed on many issues even when they had lived during the Prophet's time.

But the Sahabah are not infallible, and when differences arrose, they can just go to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم.  The Shi'a on the other hand, claim that this access to infallibility exists until our time.  As you can see, there is no comparison between the two states.  The first state, the infallible source of religion is accessible, in the second scenario, the infallible source, from the death of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم until our time, is inaccessible until the end of time!  That literally means that the Muslims are without a guide from the death of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم until the Day of Judgement.....

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Regular Muslims acknowledge that our scholars are humans and that there is room for differences and reinterpretations, and that's one of the (many) reasons Islam is so attractive.

We believe in the same thing, thanks.

Which brings us back to what the OP asked, what is the point of an infallible Imam if your religion is going to go through the same problems that regular Islam went through?

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On the other hand, we are told that what makes 12ersim better than regular Islam is that you guys have the truth 100% of the time because you have an Imam who protects the religion.

The truth will exists in all ages, and Islam will be protected from alterations, but that does not mean the differences will not creep in. Such a thing was possible during the Prophet's time too and changes did occur, the differences did arise.

I addressed a few points back but no harm in reiterating it.  When differences arose during the time of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم the Companions just went to him, therefore the pure Islam is always around during his time.  Differences arose, but they were dealt with a simple question to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم.  Today, the Shi'as are just as divided, if not more, than all the other Islamic sects combined, and yet they claim to have an infallible source to guide them.  Apparently, they do not, and have to rely on the words and reports of people who are unknown and are deviant, even according to their own madhhab.  I would like you to address this point بارك الله فيك.

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[qoute]Considering that 12ers make up less than 10% of the Ummah, all while having more differences of opinion among them then the regular Muslims (including some very dangerous fundamental issues) makes the brother question what the benefit of this supposes protector of the religion?

It is untrue that the Shia's have more differences than the Sunnis. Besides, such things cannot be counted on fingers for the brother to conclude on that mattter. It's nothing more than an assumption. [/quote]

The fact that there is ANY differences is by default a sign that your madhhab is faulty, because the Imam is supposed to protect the religion.  We can keep going in circles about this, but its pretty clear you can't answer.

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If the Imams protected the religion, but the information was not, then what is the point of the Imam?

Whatever the case, the truth has been preserved. The solutions have been given. It is up to us how we work with them. To answer your question, what is the point of the Imam, then I'll say, in a nutshell, the point of the Imam changed after the 11 Imams, to teach the Sunnis a lesson due to their disobedience and non recognition of the divinely selected Imams and the most of the Shias for not strictly following them. The latter had let them down when the Imams needed them. Both parties were at fault, the Sunnis did the most damage.

I love the opening to this paragraph, whatever the "case" is really the crux of the matter here isn't it?  As far as your answer to what the point of this hiding, I was wondering; where did you get this from?  Is this revelation?  Or is it something you got from the Imams?  Or is it (as I am sure) what you were taught at your husayniyah?  Also, I love how the point of the Imam changed; before it was for guidance, now its to teach us a lesson.  Meaning, we have been completely misguided for the past 1400 years without an Imam... سبحان الله

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We have changed our fate by being ungrateful to the favours of Allah.

You may not understand the issue, since what I have stated was in a nutshell or that it may clash with your preconceived views and beliefs.

Anyway, not my topic to go into at the moment. Perhaps another time.

Actually, this is topic of this thread...

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It was just a one off reply to the brother, who was mocking us.

Do pardon me, you have raised many other issues. I do not like speaking about multi various things all in one go. It's a waste of time. It's good to discuss one  specific point at a time. Do excuse me, from further replies. Wana use my time on the topic of the 12 successors with Farid.

Thank you for your response.

With all due respect, all of the points were basically the same point over and over, what is the point of the Imam?  The answer I got was to guide us because we cannot be guided without an infallible Imam.  When I replied but this infallible Imam has been completely inaccessible for 1200 years and wasn't fully accessible for the first 200, the response I got was its to punish us for not following the other 11...
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 12:16:56 AM by Khaled »
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Bolani Muslim

Re: What's the benefit of believing in Imamate?
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2015, 12:22:45 AM »
As to what took place after the occultation of the twelve Imams, then that's an area beyond your logic. You couldn't even grasp a simple matter, let alone something very deep.
You have a point Shia_student, I wrote 'lol' as I find it hilarious and it was general (unlike your comment which was personal), sorry if I offended you. Now do I get an apology for you calling me (in Simple English) 'Very Stupid'? :)
And I did answer you. Seems your eye sight is weak too. Now don't take that as an offence or claim that I called you blind. :)
You didn't answer my question. My question was 'What's the benefit in believing in imamate?". What did the imams do for Islam? I'm not saying that Shiaism had to be 100% without ikhtilaaf (hypothetically if the Shia are correct), however, you'd expect ijma on the basics (eg Quran, what are the imams, ect) and A LOT more conformity then today.

Funny story though: I went to a speech by Hasnain Rajabali were he made fun of Sunnis saying "If I were a non-muslim, and saw the differences between were Sunnis put hands in Salah. Then it'd be an easy way for me to crush their religion, since the Prophet prayed daily with people seeing so they should've seen were he (Saw) puts his hands." He then started talking about Malikis and said that Imam Malik saw the companions while the 'others' listened to people hundreds of miles away. He got both the Maliki position wrong and the position of the 'other' imams  :P

Hadrami

Re: What's the benefit of believing in Imamate?
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2015, 12:44:48 AM »
It is untrue that the Shia's have more differences than the Sunnis. Besides, such things cannot be counted on fingers for the brother to conclude on that mattter. It's nothing more than an assumption.
Maybe you should read a bit of this - http://twelvershia.net/2013/06/28/the-sunnah-are-divided-and-the-shia-are-united/

The leader of the Twelver Imami Shia sect al-Tusi says in “al-`Iddah fi Usoul al-Fiqh” 1/138:

وقد ذكرت ما ورد عنهم عليهم السلام في الأحاديث المختلفة التي تخص الفقه في كتابي المعروف بالاستبصار وفي كتاب تهذيب الأحكام ما يزيد على خمسة آلاف حديث. وذكرت في أكثرها اختلاف الطائفة في العمل بها. وذلك أشهر من أن يخفى، حتى إنك لو تأملت اختلافاتهم في هذه الأحكام وجدته يزيد على اختلاف أبي حنيفة والشافعي ومالك

[I (al-Tusi) have mentioned their narrations (as) in different Ahadith regarding Fiqh in my book “al-Istibsar” and “Tahdheeb al-Ahkam” and they number around five thousand(narrations). I have mentioned that the (Twelver) sect differed in following most of them. That is too popular and cannot be hidden. In fact, if you observe their difference in the rulings you would find that they differ more than the difference between Abu Hanifa, Malik and al-Shafi`i.]

Wonder if that includes the differences caused by imam's taqiya. They have ruined your religion not protect it
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 12:47:58 AM by Hadrami »

Ebn Hussein

Re: What's the benefit of believing in Imamate?
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2015, 12:47:28 AM »

Whatever the case, the truth has been preserved. The solutions have been given. It is up to us how we work with them. To answer your question, what is the point of the Imam, then I'll say, in a nutshell, the point of the Imam changed after the 11 Imams, to teach the Sunnis a lesson due to their disobedience and non recognition of the divinely selected Imams and the most of the Shias for not strictly following them. The latter had let them down when the Imams needed them. Both parties were at fault, the Sunnis did the most damage.

We have changed our fate by being ungrateful to the favours of Allah.

To teach the Sunnis a lesson! Unbelievable! Allah has supported his Prophets against ALL odds, fire could not burn them (like Ibrahim AS), the whole tribe of Muhammad Rasulullah (SAWS) could not stop his call, but a bunch of Umayyads and Abbasids interfered and Allah did not supported individuals (Imams) who are superior than Prophets (whom Allah supported against all their enemies, in particular the last Messenger). And "the truth" has not been preserved, your mute "Imam", the fairy tale is in his super-occultation for over 1100 years now, guiding nobody and nothing, and a bunch of important scriptures (including a perfect Qur'an with a DIVINE tafsir) is allegedly in his possession, although he is allegedly infallible i.e. he doesn't need it, the fallible Shia Ummah needs it. The only ones punished are those who have lost all their senses for a belief that cannot be supported by the Qur'an. Sunnis have no fault at all.

I testify with billions of Sunnis that we shall disbelieve in the fairy tale of Imamah of 12 infallible Imams, we disobeyed nobody since neither Allah nor his Messenger taught us to follow 12 particular men after the Messenger (SAWS).
الإمام الشافعي رحمه الله
لم أر أحداً من أهل الأهواء أشهد بالزور من الرافضة! - الخطيب في الكفاية والسوطي.

Imam Al-Shafi3i - may Allah have mercy upon him - said: "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Rafidah." [narrated by Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi/Al-Kifayah]

Ebn Hussein

Re: What's the benefit of believing in Imamate?
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2015, 12:49:00 AM »
It is untrue that the Shia's have more differences than the Sunnis. Besides, such things cannot be counted on fingers for the brother to conclude on that mattter. It's nothing more than an assumption.
Maybe you should read a bit of this - http://twelvershia.net/2013/06/28/the-sunnah-are-divided-and-the-shia-are-united/

The leader of the Twelver Imami Shia sect al-Tusi says in “al-`Iddah fi Usoul al-Fiqh” 1/138:

وقد ذكرت ما ورد عنهم عليهم السلام في الأحاديث المختلفة التي تخص الفقه في كتابي المعروف بالاستبصار وفي كتاب تهذيب الأحكام ما يزيد على خمسة آلاف حديث. وذكرت في أكثرها اختلاف الطائفة في العمل بها. وذلك أشهر من أن يخفى، حتى إنك لو تأملت اختلافاتهم في هذه الأحكام وجدته يزيد على اختلاف أبي حنيفة والشافعي ومالك

[I (al-Tusi) have mentioned their narrations (as) in different Ahadith regarding Fiqh in my book “al-Istibsar” and “Tahdheeb al-Ahkam” and they number around five thousand(narrations). I have mentioned that the (Twelver) sect differed in following most of them. That is too popular and cannot be hidden. In fact, if you observe their difference in the rulings you would find that they differ more than the difference between Abu Hanifa, Malik and al-Shafi`i.]

Wonder if that includes the differences caused by imam's taqiya. They have ruined your religion not protect it

Al-Toosi SHAYKH AL-TA'IFAH (THE Head of the Shia sect) has spoken and refute an online Shii. Inshaallah the more brother Shia Student learns, the more he will come to the truth and accept the path of Islam along with other Ex-Shia members of this board.
الإمام الشافعي رحمه الله
لم أر أحداً من أهل الأهواء أشهد بالزور من الرافضة! - الخطيب في الكفاية والسوطي.

Imam Al-Shafi3i - may Allah have mercy upon him - said: "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Rafidah." [narrated by Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi/Al-Kifayah]

Ibn Yahya

Re: What's the benefit of believing in Imamate?
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2015, 08:15:37 PM »
You are weak in your logic. No wonder you couldn't stick around with the truth.

By your logic, may I ask, why do the Sunnis differ, when the Prophet had left behind a complete Quran and a perfect Sunnah?

The reason why they differ is because additions and subtractions have crept in, though Islam in itself is pure as left by the Prophet.

The Imams protected the pure religion, like the Prophets but additions and subtractions have also crept into the Shia reports, whether pertaining to the commentary of the Quran or the the Sunnah of the Prophet. Such are the reasons of differences, not because Islam was not protected.

As to what took place after the occultation of the twelve Imams, then that's an area beyond your logic. You couldn't even grasp a simple matter, let alone something very deep.

You call brother Hassan deficient in logic. You seem to only be able to see an argument from your point of view. The Salaf kept Islam alive like you claim your Imams did, it's not ricket science. And by the way don't even try and talk about additions and subtractions to Islam. I'd like to find a hadith where your Imams condoned building shrines and graves or the fact that literally every time one of your imams died there were people claiming he was the Mahdi. Because it seems a bit suspicious about how when every Imam does their Shi'ah start claiming he's the Mahdi (even to the extent that most of Musa ibn Ja'far's Shi'ah became Waqifis) yet for some reason you're twelfth Imam (who doesn't even exist) is the correct Mahdi after all the Shi'ah over the last 200 years or so who've turned around and claimed their dead Imam is the Mahdi. You expect us not to be the slightest bit cynical when it comes to you Shi'ah claiming stuff about your Imams that even you say isn't true?

Bolani Muslim

Re: What's the benefit of believing in Imamate?
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2015, 06:15:28 PM »
I made a mistake earlier, the 12 imams (until ghaiba) isn't ~150 years, but actually ~250 years! So Sunnis had only 23 years of divine guidance, while Shias had ~275 years of divine guidance, yet are more confused then their Sunni counterparts :D.

Hadrami

Re: What's the benefit of believing in Imamate?
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2015, 10:09:44 PM »
I made a mistake earlier, the 12 imams (until ghaiba) isn't ~150 years, but actually ~250 years! So Sunnis had only 23 years of divine guidance, while Shias had ~275 years of divine guidance, yet are more confused then their Sunni counterparts :D.
It was such a divine guidance that imam lied left right and center using taqiyah to confuse their opponents and confused their followers and confused shia scholars for years to come at the same time :D

Bolani Muslim

Re: What's the benefit of believing in Imamate?
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2015, 06:04:36 PM »
I was read an old post on Sunniforum were bro Hani asked mentioned interesting along the lines of.
"We always hear Shias lament 'If only the imams became the khalifs, then they'd be able to use they're superpowers (controlling all the atoms, ilm ghaib and being in multiple places, knowing all languages, ect) and make the Muslim ummah great!' The issue with this is that Ameer al-Mumineen Ali (ra) became khalif for 4 years, but the complete opposite occurred. What's the point of the imams having all these powers if they can't use them? What's the point of the 'Imams' being in government, if he can't rule superior to another normal human beings? The khilafat of Ali (ra) and Hassan (ra) prove this point.

 

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