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What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?

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Rationalist

What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« on: February 02, 2015, 11:39:30 PM »
The 12ers have two views on this issue. One view is that Imams are superior to Prophets except Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Another view which I am not sure if its majority or a minority view is that Imams are not superior to previous Prophets.
So for those who believe in the first view why didn't Allah appoint the Prophet (pbuh) as a Prophet ? Why couldn't he just be appointed as an Imam since Imamate is superior to Prophethood ?

For those who hold the second view, my question is what is the source of knowledge for the Imams ? Is it ilm-Al-Jafr, Mushaf al Fatima etc ?

Bolani Muslim

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2015, 11:55:01 PM »
Very few shias hold the 2nd view. Fadlullah was the only marja (that I'm aware of) who said he's not sure if the prophets or imams are superior.

Hani

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2015, 11:59:48 PM »
Bro the Shia on our forum currently will not be able to answer anything.


As for what's the wisdom behind Imamate, I say what's the point of ending Prophet-hood if they are to be succeeded by "Imams" who are exactly like them heck even better!?


And how the heck can an Imam be better than a Prophet if the Imamiyyah claim that Prophets can see angels and receive revelation while the Imams can't?
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Husayn

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2015, 12:40:46 AM »
Yes, what is the point of Prophethood, when you consider the following:

Quote
H 669, Ch. 46, h 3

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from ‘Umrah ibn Musa from Musa ibn Ja‘far from ‘Amr
ibn Sa‘id al-Mada’ini from abu ‘Ubayda al-Mada’ini from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said
the following.

"When the Imam (a.s.) would will to know something Allah will grant him such knowledge."
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Rationalist

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2015, 12:48:41 AM »
Bro the Shia on our forum currently will not be able to answer anything.


As for what's the wisdom behind Imamate, I say what's the point of ending Prophet-hood if they are to be succeeded by "Imams" who are exactly like them heck even better!?


And how the heck can an Imam be better than a Prophet if the Imamiyyah claim that Prophets can see angels and receive revelation while the Imams can't?

Even with Divine revelations Allah tells his Prophets there are areas you don't have knowledge in. However, with Ilm-Al Jafr the Imams don't have that weakness or limitation.

Rationalist

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2015, 12:52:44 AM »
Yes, what is the point of Prophethood, when you consider the following:

Quote
H 669, Ch. 46, h 3

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from ‘Umrah ibn Musa from Musa ibn Ja‘far from ‘Amr
ibn Sa‘id al-Mada’ini from abu ‘Ubayda al-Mada’ini from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said
the following.

"When the Imam (a.s.) would will to know something Allah will grant him such knowledge."

Wow something even better than Al Jafr.

Hani

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2015, 01:01:11 AM »
It gets thrown in their hearts and whispered in their ears : p



عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Husayn

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2015, 01:24:02 AM »
It gets thrown in their hearts and whispered in their ears : p

But it is NOT Wahi.

It's some other form of Divine... information receiving???

Divine Messaging
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Rationalist

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2015, 01:31:49 AM »
It gets thrown in their hearts and whispered in their ears : p

But it is NOT Wahi.

It's some other form of Divine... information receiving???

Divine Messaging

Even for Wahi, the Prophets have to wait to receive it. However, for an Imam he just has to will it and he gets information directly.

Ameen

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2015, 09:35:00 AM »
The 12ers have two views on this issue. One view is that Imams are superior to Prophets except Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Another view which I am not sure if its majority or a minority view is that Imams are not superior to previous Prophets.
So for those who believe in the first view why didn't Allah appoint the Prophet (pbuh) as a Prophet ? Why couldn't he just be appointed as an Imam since Imamate is superior to Prophethood ?

For those who hold the second view, my question is what is the source of knowledge for the Imams ? Is it ilm-Al-Jafr, Mushaf al Fatima etc ?

Such questions have been asked many times over and have been addressed many times over. But the intention and urge to cause suspicion and to cast doubt is still ripe.

This has been answered and here we go again. A simple and straightforward answer;

"When Abraham (as) was tried by his Lord and he succeeded then he was made an Imam of the people",

Now I am sure that you know what Abraham (as) was before he was put through a test, when he succeeded he was made an Imam. This means he wasn't one before. And he was only made an Imam after being tried and after succeeding.

Now ask yourself this with a wide mind and an open heart, was he promoted??? Was he demoted??? Or was he given a title/grade/status of a similar level/stage????

Go on, give it a shot!

Don't come back with excuses based on ifs and buts.





















Hadrami

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2015, 02:30:19 PM »
just curious if any shia can answer this (ameen dont ruin my question, i dont need your reply). If imam is higher than prophet and Ali was declared as imam in ghadeer & according to shia all companions pledged their allegiance there. Does it mean before ghadeer, Ali was also a Prophet?

Hani

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2015, 03:36:49 PM »
It seems to me that Ibrahim (as) was demoted according to Shia, because they believe Ibrahim (as) was a Prophet, and prophets can see the angel and receive revelation from Allah, heck some Prophets were able to talk to Allah directly and they had mighty miracles mentioned in Allah's book. However, Shia claim Allah made Ibrahim (as) an Imam, and they say Imams cannot see angels nor receive revelation.

This means he was demoted : (
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 03:39:23 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2015, 06:14:26 PM »
Oh dear. One accuses the Shias of believing that Imams are higher than Prophets and the other, rather than answering the question and giving his own opinion, he gives an opinion on behalf of the Shias that Abraham (as) was demoted.

Come on gentlemen, you're not interested in any civilised discussion or debate, you're more interested in putting one over the Shias.



Rationalist

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2015, 06:39:04 PM »
Ameen you have failed to understand my question. I didn't ask the 12ers to prove that Imamate is higher than Prophets. I already stated that I am aware of their beliefs.  However, my question is why is Prophethood needed if Imamate is superior than Prophethood. Again please don't waste your time proving that Imamate is superior to Prophethood. In fact, by attempting this you are convincing me further by showing me how illogical your sect is. Also  because of this type of reasining I am came back and questioned why is Prophethood needed if Imamate is superior.

Ameen

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2015, 11:06:22 PM »
Brother I am trying to answer your question but you are not asking to understand or get to know, you are more interested in trying to catch out. And this is why you keep interrupting and restricting the discussion. You want to hear your desired answer or you want someone with limited knowledge and understanding about Shiaism to discuss with you, so you can take advantage of them struggling to reply and answer.

Rationalist

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2015, 11:14:50 PM »
If you want to reply to a question which I never asked then start another discussion. This topic isn't about proving whether Imamate is superior than Prophethood. Its about why is Prophethood is needed when the Imamate is superior.

Again this is how you attempted to answer a question I never asked.

"When Abraham (as) was tried by his Lord and he succeeded then he was made an Imam of the people",

I'm not asking you why Prophet Ibrahim (as) was made into an Imam. I am asking why Prophethood is required when Imamate was present. Why didn't the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) just get chosen as an Imam. Why did he have to be a Prophet when Imamate is superior ?

Ameen

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2015, 11:19:46 PM »
But let me try again, was Abraham (as) promoted, demoted or given a title/grade of a similar level/status??? And Abraham was already a Messenger and Prophet, please do correct me if I go wrong, now what was the need for him to be tried by his Lord and then be made an Imam of the people??? Mmm?? He was already a Prophet to the people, so what was the need for him to become the Imam of the same people???

Here is another one to help you get, not an answer but answers to your question/s. you have Messenger hood and then you have Prophecy, what is the point and need of both??? You are a Messenger then what is the point and need for Prophecy??? Why do you become both??? Prophecy is above Messenger hood, yes??? Every Prophet is also a Messenger but not every Messenger is a Prophet, yes???

Now let me tell you a bit about Shiaism (12rs), just as Messenger hood and Prophecy are God made titles/grades/status and he chooses Messengers and Prophets, we also believe that Khilafath and Imamath are God made titles/grades/status and he alone chooses and selects Khalifas and Imams.

I don't know where you get your information from but exposing is one thing but propaganda is another.

Ameen

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2015, 11:22:14 PM »
Start another discussion, start another thread etc, what lovely excuses. If you can't say anything here what are you going to say over there??? You ask questions, I try to reply and you start to play hide and seek.

Hani

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2015, 11:25:46 PM »
Here is another one to help you get, not an answer but answers to your question/s. you have Messenger hood and then you have Prophecy, what is the point and need of both??? You are a Messenger then what is the point and need for Prophecy??? Why do you become both??? Prophecy is above Messenger hood, yes??? Every Prophet is also a Messenger but not every Messenger is a Prophet, yes???


I think you got it upside down my friend. Every Messenger is a Prophet but not every Prophet is a Messenger.


And let me tell you what's the difference between them:


A Messenger comes with a new message, a new law and a new scripture.


A Prophet comes to affirm and revive the scripture and law of the Messenger that preceded him.



عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2015, 11:28:21 PM »
Now since the Prophet's job is stated above and it is as you read, then what's the point of a divine Imam? Why not just another Prophet?


Since according to you guys the job of the Prophet and the job of the Imam is one and the same.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

 

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