TwelverShia.net Forum

What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Ameen

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2015, 11:29:24 PM »
You have plenty of Messengers but just being a Messenger you aren't the same. Even if you leave Prophecy out of this and you are just a Messenger, you're still not equal and the same. Prophets aren't even equal and the same. Why is the last one Afzalul Ambia e Wal Mursaleen??? What was so unique about this one??? What was the difference??? Or why were they all different when they were all Messengers and Prophets???

Now you ask yourself what is the definition of a Messenger and Prophet and what was their duty and job??? Also what is the difference between the two??? Come on and don't be afraid to answer. It won't hurt!

Hani

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2015, 11:30:51 PM »
Now you ask yourself what is the definition of a Messenger and Prophet and what was their duty and job??? Also what is the difference between the two??? Come on and don't be afraid to answer. It won't hurt!

I wrote the answer to that before you wrote this sad post of yours.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2015, 11:32:51 PM »
Here is another one to help you get, not an answer but answers to your question/s. you have Messenger hood and then you have Prophecy, what is the point and need of both??? You are a Messenger then what is the point and need for Prophecy??? Why do you become both??? Prophecy is above Messenger hood, yes??? Every Prophet is also a Messenger but not every Messenger is a Prophet, yes???


I think you got it upside down my friend. Every Messenger is a Prophet but not every Prophet is a Messenger.


And let me tell you what's the difference between them:


A Messenger comes with a new message, a new law and a new scripture.


A Prophet comes to affirm and revive the scripture and law of the Messenger that preceded him.





Ok, can you back this up for me please that every Messenger is a Prophet but not every Prophet is a Messenegr!

Hani

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2015, 11:35:36 PM »
Yeah sure, give me a couple of minutes.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2015, 11:38:34 PM »
Now since the Prophet's job is stated above and it is as you read, then what's the point of a divine Imam? Why not just another Prophet?


Since according to you guys the job of the Prophet and the job of the Imam is one and the same.
Now since the Prophet's job is stated above and it is as you read, then what's the point of a divine Imam? Why not just another Prophet?


Since according to you guys the job of the Prophet and the job of the Imam is one and the same.
Now since the Prophet's job is stated above and it is as you read, then what's the point of a divine Imam? Why not just another Prophet?


Since according to you guys the job of the Prophet and the job of the Imam is one and the same.

You said,

"Since according to you guys the job of the Prophet and the job of the Imam is one and the same",

LOL! Like I said, I don't know where you get your information from. No, absolutely not. This is very wrong. So I don't know what and who you are exposing, when your information is absolutely false!

Ameen

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2015, 11:39:07 PM »
Yeah sure, give me a couple of minutes.

Sure, thank you!

Hani

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2015, 11:45:00 PM »
Here you go,

Shia grand Ayatullah Ja`far al-Subhani says in “Mafaheem al-Qur’an” 3/217-218:

[The prophet, if he was sent with a new Shari`ah, or came with a new holy book, then his prophet-hood is Tashri`iyyah. On the other hand, if the prophet was sent for Da`wah(14) and guidance to the rulings previously established by Allah through past prophets, then his prophet-hood is Tablighiyyah. The first kind are messengers, and is restricted to five individuals mentioned in Qur’an and Hadith, as for the majority, they are from the second kind, they were sent to promote the religion that was revealed upon the messengers so their prophet-hood is Tablighiyyah.]

He says if a Prophet is sent with a divine message, he is called a Messenger. If not, then he remains a Prophet. He also says that the Messengers we know, are no more than five individuals.

This is confirmed by Shia philosopher Murtada al-Mutahhari in  “al-Wahi wal-Nubuwwah” pg28-30:

[Now we must see why was prophet-hood renewed in the past, and prophets used to come continuously one by one, even though not all of them were bringers of Shari`ah and laws and most were sent to execute an available Shari`ah? and why did the matter (abruptly) end after the seal of prophets, and the Tashri`i prophet will no longer come, even the Tablighi prophet will no longer come? …why? by consensus most prophets were Tablighi not Tashri`i, and maybe the Tashri`i prophets numbers wouldn’t rise above the number of the fingers in your hand, and the job of the Tablighi prophets was to deliver Shari`ah and spread it and execute it and explain it.]

Also confirmed by Shia scholar al-`Allamah Ibraheem al-Ameeni in his book “al-Nubuwwah wal-Nabi” pg.138:

[So why is there no more need for Tablighi prophets to promote these Shari’ah laws, just like Allah would send after the messengers of Ulil-`Azm, he would send many prophets after them to promote the previous Shari`ah and spread its message to coming generations?  it is possible for us to say that human society in the time of the coming of the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) had reached mental integrity and intellectual maturity to an extent that it became good enough to preserve the teachings of the prophets, and protect them from the danger of accidents, and that society itself can deliver the sacred virtues and knowledge, so society becomes self sufficient, so there was no more need to send prophets.]

So prophets are two kinds, one kind is Tablighi and the other is Tashri`i, the second kind are messengers. Thus ever Messenger is a Prophet but not every Prophet is a Messenger.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2015, 11:47:28 PM »

You said,

"Since according to you guys the job of the Prophet and the job of the Imam is one and the same",

LOL! Like I said, I don't know where you get your information from. No, absolutely not. This is very wrong. So I don't know what and who you are exposing, when your information is absolutely false!

Well that's what your scholars say.

Prophets are divinely chosen and so are Imams, both are infallible, both are supposed to be the leaders, both are tasked with guiding humanity and spreading justice etc...

So why is my information (which I read in your books) false?
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2015, 11:49:55 PM »
Brothers as far as my limited knowledge and information goes, messenger hood and Prophecy was/is a form of communication between God and mankind (people). A Messenger and or Prophet passes information to people from God as messages. The main form of communication between Messenger and or Prophet and God is Gabriel (as).

A Messenger passes information in the form of verbal messages, where as a Prophet passes information in the form commandments. Out of the Prophets we have four great Prophets, upon them an entire book has been revealed. Or you can say they introduced revelation.

This is not me v you, it might be for you but not for me. Do correct me or if you disagree or differ then, I would like to here it.

Hani

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2015, 11:54:44 PM »
What I believe is exactly as I quoted from the books of the biggest Shia scholars above.


You have Messengers who bring a new law. Prophets who affirm the past laws and revive them.


The only difference between a Messenger and a Prophet is that Messengers bring a new divine book, other than that they have the same exact job.


Now we want you, the Twelver, to tell us what's the difference between the divinely appointed Prophet and the divinely appointed Imam?


Give us some differences.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2015, 12:05:40 AM »


Now let me tell you a bit about Shiaism (12rs), just as Messenger hood and Prophecy are God made titles/grades/status and he chooses Messengers and Prophets, we also believe that Khilafath and Imamath are God made titles/grades/status and he alone chooses and selects Khalifas and Imams.
Okay fine! Let's get into epistemology, and this way you can help me gain a better understanding.

A Prophets knowledge comes from Wahi. Now tell me where does an Imam's knowledge come from ? What make a divinely appointed Imam unique in comparison to another descendant of Fatima (sa) who is claiming Imamate ?


Rationalist

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2015, 12:07:24 AM »
What I believe is exactly as I quoted from the books of the biggest Shia scholars above.


You have Messengers who bring a new law. Prophets who affirm the past laws and revive them.


The only difference between a Messenger and a Prophet is that Messengers bring a new divine book, other than that they have the same exact job.


Now we want you, the Twelver, to tell us what's the difference between the divinely appointed Prophet and the divinely appointed Imam?


Give us some differences.

The answers to this question from their point of view are found in Al Kafi. But these answers show that Imamate is not superior to Prophethood.

Hani

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2015, 12:09:39 AM »

The answers to this question from their point of view are found in Al Kafi. But these answers show that Imamate is not superior to Prophethood.

You mean it proves that Ibrahim (as) was demoted? = )
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2015, 12:15:31 AM »

You said,

"Since according to you guys the job of the Prophet and the job of the Imam is one and the same",

LOL! Like I said, I don't know where you get your information from. No, absolutely not. This is very wrong. So I don't know what and who you are exposing, when your information is absolutely false!

Well that's what your scholars say.

Prophets are divinely chosen and so are Imams, both are infallible, both are supposed to be the leaders, both are tasked with guiding humanity and spreading justice etc...

So why is my information (which I read in your books) false?

First of all brother it is a clear belief of the Shias that no book is 100% authentic/accurate apart from the Quran, unlike the Sunnis who hold other books 100% authentic/accurate along with and just like the Quran. Example; the book Bukhari. This is not just Bukhari but it is Sehih Bukhari. It is not just Sehih Bukhari but it is also baad az Kithab e Bari.

Secondly all due respect to all scholars, what ever they write in their book is either a collection or they have recorded something (record) or they have mentioned both or the other side of the argument. It doesn't mean that this is their thought, opinion and point of view.

Thirdly what every they say or believe in, what ever their thought, opinion and point of view may be, it is not necessary, compulsory or mandatory for people to believe in and hold that thought, opinion and point of view as their own. But what you have said and mentioned that Prophets and Imams are the same, their duty and job is the same, their status is the same etc, what ever else is absolutely wrong to begin with.

I don't know where this has been said and who said it but I would definitely like some references to this. A Prophets duty and job is to bring, introduce and spread Shariath and an Imams job is to protect, defend and safe guard it and this is exactly what the Imams of the Muslim Ummah after the last Prophet (pbuh) did.

Not our Imams but Imams of the Ummah. Just like God gives Rizq to everyone, he is everyone's God. Those who believe in him and those who don't, he is still God no matter what and gives Rizq to everyone, whether you worship him or not he is still God.

The Messengers and or Prophets are still what they are, whether you believe in them or not. And the same applies to the Imams. They are who they are and their duty and job was to protect, defend and safeguard Islam. Allah wouldn't and definitely didn't leave Quran and Sunnah in the hands of ordinary people.

Hani

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2015, 12:37:52 AM »

Quote
First of all brother it is a clear belief of the Shias that no book is 100% authentic/accurate apart from the Quran, unlike the Sunnis who hold other books 100% authentic/accurate along with and just like the Quran. Example; the book Bukhari. This is not just Bukhari but it is Sehih Bukhari. It is not just Sehih Bukhari but it is also baad az Kithab e Bari.

Do Shia have to keep repeating this old record of un-authentic books? It's okay man, we know your books are corrupt and full of weak nonsense, you don't have to remind us that you have nothing Sahih.



Quote
Secondly all due respect to all scholars, what ever they write in their book is either a collection or they have recorded something (record) or they have mentioned both or the other side of the argument. It doesn't mean that this is their thought, opinion and point of view.


The ones I quoted it is their own opinion, so don't worry. You can buy their books and verify for yourself... Oh wait, you don't know Arabic, well too bad.


(So far nothing you wrote is related to our topic of discussion, let's hope you answer in the next paragraph)



Quote
Thirdly what every they say or believe in, what ever their thought, opinion and point of view may be, it is not necessary, compulsory or mandatory for people to believe in and hold that thought, opinion and point of view as their own. But what you have said and mentioned that Prophets and Imams are the same, their duty and job is the same, their status is the same etc, what ever else is absolutely wrong to begin with.


That's what you say, but your scholars say that an Imam is exactly like a Prophet except he isn't a Prophet. For example Shia scholar Muhsin al-Kharazi says in “Bidayat al-Ma`arif al-Ilahiya” 1/11:


[Also the Imam has the qualities of the prophet because he’s his successor, so if the prophet was infallible then he also is infallible (…) and thus the Imam takes the place of the prophet and has all of his qualities except that he isn’t a prophet.]


But I understand if you say your scholars are ignorant of what is correct whereas only you know what is correct, perfectly understandable.



Quote
I don't know where this has been said and who said it but I would definitely like some references to this. A Prophets duty and job is to bring, introduce and spread Shariath and an Imams job is to protect, defend and safe guard it and this is exactly what the Imams of the Muslim Ummah after the last Prophet (pbuh) did.


That's because the last Prophet is a MESSENGER, and your Imams are doing the job of Prophets. And we've already quoted evidence for this in case you missed it where your scholars described exactly what a Prophet does and what a Tashri`ee Prophet(Messenger) does.


Here you go, `Allamah Ibrahim al-Ameeni says in “al-Nubuwwah wal-Nabi” pg137-138:


[If we say that the need to send prophets from ulil-`Azm(15) is no longer present, because the rulings and laws are completed, and religious knowledge is perfected, but why would there not be a need for Tablighi prophets who promote these laws? just as Allah would send after each prophet of Shari`ah many other prophets, so they can promote the Shari`ah and deliver it to later generations, so why would Allah not send after the prophet of Islam other prophets to deliver the ‘muhammadi message’ and promote it, while acknowledging that the presence of such prophets is something necessary and beneficial for societies.]


He says Tashri`ee Messengers bring the laws, whereas Tablighee Prophets "promote" them and "spread" them.


Just as Muhammad (saw) who is a Messenger brought the laws, and the Imams are tasked with promoting and spreading them.



Quote
The Messengers and or Prophets are still what they are, whether you believe in them or not. And the same applies to the Imams. They are who they are and their duty and job was to protect, defend and safeguard Islam. Allah wouldn't and definitely didn't leave Quran and Sunnah in the hands of ordinary people.


Not in the hands of ordinary people? Well why not send Prophets, since they have the same job as your Imams?

عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2015, 12:41:23 AM »
Ameen, so as to not waste your time and ours, concentrate on this.


You're saying, the Imams are not like the Prophets.


But you're not telling us what those differences are, what are those differences? List them.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2015, 10:21:54 AM »
Ok brother Hani, it's like bagging your head against the wall when it comes to discussion on such forums.

I don't need to repeat myself and remind you constantly if you change your stance. Let me put this out once again.

Our books are rubbish, weak, full of nonsense and anything else you have in mind, brother keep your personal opinion out of this.

Now what about your comments??? Are they not sarcastic and pathetic??? This is what you accuse of. Brother you know what I mean.

We are not like you who believe and claim that our books are authentic then, start to refute bits and pieces from that book.

We don't have double standards brother. Will continue this.










Ameen

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2015, 11:57:14 AM »
So you want a list about the differences between Imams and Prophets. Ok, here we go;

A Prophets duty and job is to bring, introduce and spread the message, and Imams job is to protect, defend and safeguard it.

A Prophets duty and job is to explain and clarify the measage, where as the Imams duty and job is to give further explanation and clarification.

A Prophet is the warner where as the Imam is the guider. Every prime minister has his deputy. The knowledge is given to both by Allah to carry out their duties.

There duty and job is different but closely linked. I will wait for you to dig out something from here to raise suspicion and cast doubt.

Don't worry, I will continue to answer. This is something you can't/won't do. But there you go!









 




Ameen

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2015, 12:03:57 PM »
So tell me brother Hani, who is superior, Messenger or Prophet??? You believe that every Messenger is a Prophet but not every Prophet is a Messenger, is this what you believe in???

The four books were revealed on four Prophets; Daud, Eesa, Musa and Muhammad (pbut).  what is your opinion on them???


Hani

Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2015, 04:10:17 PM »
Well everything you wrote contradicts what your scholars said in the previous posts.


You said:



Quote
A Prophets duty and job is to bring, introduce and spread the message, and Imams job is to protect, defend and safeguard it.


That's incorrect, according to your scholars A Messenger's job is to bring and introduce and spread the message  as well as explaining it and protecting it.


The Prophet's job is to only explain and protect and spread what was already revealed on the Messenger. This is the exact same thing the Imam does.


Both the Imam and the Prophet are tasked with protecting and safeguarding the message.


So no, that ain't no difference.



Quote
A Prophets duty and job is to explain and clarify the measage, where as the Imams duty and job is to give further explanation and clarification.


That makes no sense, where'd you get this from? Anyways it matters not because essentially what you wrote above means that both the Prophets and the Imams are tasked with explaining and clarifying.



Quote
A Prophet is the warner where as the Imam is the guider. Every prime minister has his deputy. The knowledge is given to both by Allah to carry out their duties.


Are you joking? YOU Just wrote a few lines above that it is the Prophet's job to spread, explain and clarify, HOW IS THIS NOT GUIDING!!? Do you understand what the word "Guide" means??


Don't you read the Qur'an:


{And thus We have revealed to you an inspiration of Our command. You did not know what is the Book or [what is] faith, but We have made it a light by which We guide whom We will of Our servants. And indeed, [O Muhammad], you guide to a straight path} [42:52]



Quote
There duty and job is different but closely linked. I will wait for you to dig out something from here to raise suspicion and cast doubt.


It's not "closely linked" It's the EXACT SAME JOB, and the Prophet as well as the Imam have the EXACT SAME QUALITIES.



Ayatullah sheikh Muhammad Baqir al-Hakim says in “al-Imamah wa Ahlul-Bayt al-Nazariyah wal-Istidlal” pg.112:


[All the proofs of the intellect that can be used to prove the necessity of prophet-hood, can also be used intellectually to prove the necessity of Imamah, because the Imam is like the prophet when it comes to his responsibilities and missions]


MEANING THEY DO THE SAME EXACT THINGS, If one is a Guide then the other is a Guide, If one is a Warner then the other is a Warner, if one Protects the religion and spreads it, then the other Protects the religion and spreads it.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
21 Replies
4208 Views
Last post November 16, 2015, 11:39:04 PM
by Khalifa
0 Replies
722 Views
Last post May 10, 2016, 08:55:05 PM
by Abu Jasim Al-Salafi
2 Replies
251 Views
Last post March 23, 2020, 06:10:11 PM
by Soccer
9 Replies
172 Views
Last post Today at 09:08:27 AM
by Mythbuster1