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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => General Sunni-Shia => Topic started by: Rationalist on February 02, 2015, 11:39:30 PM

Title: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Rationalist on February 02, 2015, 11:39:30 PM
The 12ers have two views on this issue. One view is that Imams are superior to Prophets except Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Another view which I am not sure if its majority or a minority view is that Imams are not superior to previous Prophets.
So for those who believe in the first view why didn't Allah appoint the Prophet (pbuh) as a Prophet ? Why couldn't he just be appointed as an Imam since Imamate is superior to Prophethood ?

For those who hold the second view, my question is what is the source of knowledge for the Imams ? Is it ilm-Al-Jafr, Mushaf al Fatima etc ?
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Bolani Muslim on February 02, 2015, 11:55:01 PM
Very few shias hold the 2nd view. Fadlullah was the only marja (that I'm aware of) who said he's not sure if the prophets or imams are superior.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Hani on February 02, 2015, 11:59:48 PM
Bro the Shia on our forum currently will not be able to answer anything.


As for what's the wisdom behind Imamate, I say what's the point of ending Prophet-hood if they are to be succeeded by "Imams" who are exactly like them heck even better!?


And how the heck can an Imam be better than a Prophet if the Imamiyyah claim that Prophets can see angels and receive revelation while the Imams can't?
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Husayn on February 03, 2015, 12:40:46 AM
Yes, what is the point of Prophethood, when you consider the following:

Quote
H 669, Ch. 46, h 3

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from ‘Umrah ibn Musa from Musa ibn Ja‘far from ‘Amr
ibn Sa‘id al-Mada’ini from abu ‘Ubayda al-Mada’ini from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said
the following.

"When the Imam (a.s.) would will to know something Allah will grant him such knowledge."
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Rationalist on February 03, 2015, 12:48:41 AM
Bro the Shia on our forum currently will not be able to answer anything.


As for what's the wisdom behind Imamate, I say what's the point of ending Prophet-hood if they are to be succeeded by "Imams" who are exactly like them heck even better!?


And how the heck can an Imam be better than a Prophet if the Imamiyyah claim that Prophets can see angels and receive revelation while the Imams can't?

Even with Divine revelations Allah tells his Prophets there are areas you don't have knowledge in. However, with Ilm-Al Jafr the Imams don't have that weakness or limitation.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Rationalist on February 03, 2015, 12:52:44 AM
Yes, what is the point of Prophethood, when you consider the following:

Quote
H 669, Ch. 46, h 3

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from ‘Umrah ibn Musa from Musa ibn Ja‘far from ‘Amr
ibn Sa‘id al-Mada’ini from abu ‘Ubayda al-Mada’ini from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said
the following.

"When the Imam (a.s.) would will to know something Allah will grant him such knowledge."

Wow something even better than Al Jafr.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Hani on February 03, 2015, 01:01:11 AM
It gets thrown in their hearts and whispered in their ears : p



Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Husayn on February 03, 2015, 01:24:02 AM
It gets thrown in their hearts and whispered in their ears : p

But it is NOT Wahi.

It's some other form of Divine... information receiving???

Divine Messaging
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Rationalist on February 03, 2015, 01:31:49 AM
It gets thrown in their hearts and whispered in their ears : p

But it is NOT Wahi.

It's some other form of Divine... information receiving???

Divine Messaging

Even for Wahi, the Prophets have to wait to receive it. However, for an Imam he just has to will it and he gets information directly.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Ameen on February 03, 2015, 09:35:00 AM
The 12ers have two views on this issue. One view is that Imams are superior to Prophets except Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Another view which I am not sure if its majority or a minority view is that Imams are not superior to previous Prophets.
So for those who believe in the first view why didn't Allah appoint the Prophet (pbuh) as a Prophet ? Why couldn't he just be appointed as an Imam since Imamate is superior to Prophethood ?

For those who hold the second view, my question is what is the source of knowledge for the Imams ? Is it ilm-Al-Jafr, Mushaf al Fatima etc ?

Such questions have been asked many times over and have been addressed many times over. But the intention and urge to cause suspicion and to cast doubt is still ripe.

This has been answered and here we go again. A simple and straightforward answer;

"When Abraham (as) was tried by his Lord and he succeeded then he was made an Imam of the people",

Now I am sure that you know what Abraham (as) was before he was put through a test, when he succeeded he was made an Imam. This means he wasn't one before. And he was only made an Imam after being tried and after succeeding.

Now ask yourself this with a wide mind and an open heart, was he promoted??? Was he demoted??? Or was he given a title/grade/status of a similar level/stage????

Go on, give it a shot!

Don't come back with excuses based on ifs and buts.




















Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Hadrami on February 03, 2015, 02:30:19 PM
just curious if any shia can answer this (ameen dont ruin my question, i dont need your reply). If imam is higher than prophet and Ali was declared as imam in ghadeer & according to shia all companions pledged their allegiance there. Does it mean before ghadeer, Ali was also a Prophet?
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Hani on February 03, 2015, 03:36:49 PM
It seems to me that Ibrahim (as) was demoted according to Shia, because they believe Ibrahim (as) was a Prophet, and prophets can see the angel and receive revelation from Allah, heck some Prophets were able to talk to Allah directly and they had mighty miracles mentioned in Allah's book. However, Shia claim Allah made Ibrahim (as) an Imam, and they say Imams cannot see angels nor receive revelation.

This means he was demoted : (
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Ameen on February 03, 2015, 06:14:26 PM
Oh dear. One accuses the Shias of believing that Imams are higher than Prophets and the other, rather than answering the question and giving his own opinion, he gives an opinion on behalf of the Shias that Abraham (as) was demoted.

Come on gentlemen, you're not interested in any civilised discussion or debate, you're more interested in putting one over the Shias.


Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Rationalist on February 03, 2015, 06:39:04 PM
Ameen you have failed to understand my question. I didn't ask the 12ers to prove that Imamate is higher than Prophets. I already stated that I am aware of their beliefs.  However, my question is why is Prophethood needed if Imamate is superior than Prophethood. Again please don't waste your time proving that Imamate is superior to Prophethood. In fact, by attempting this you are convincing me further by showing me how illogical your sect is. Also  because of this type of reasining I am came back and questioned why is Prophethood needed if Imamate is superior.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Ameen on February 03, 2015, 11:06:22 PM
Brother I am trying to answer your question but you are not asking to understand or get to know, you are more interested in trying to catch out. And this is why you keep interrupting and restricting the discussion. You want to hear your desired answer or you want someone with limited knowledge and understanding about Shiaism to discuss with you, so you can take advantage of them struggling to reply and answer.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Rationalist on February 03, 2015, 11:14:50 PM
If you want to reply to a question which I never asked then start another discussion. This topic isn't about proving whether Imamate is superior than Prophethood. Its about why is Prophethood is needed when the Imamate is superior.

Again this is how you attempted to answer a question I never asked.

"When Abraham (as) was tried by his Lord and he succeeded then he was made an Imam of the people",

I'm not asking you why Prophet Ibrahim (as) was made into an Imam. I am asking why Prophethood is required when Imamate was present. Why didn't the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) just get chosen as an Imam. Why did he have to be a Prophet when Imamate is superior ?
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Ameen on February 03, 2015, 11:19:46 PM
But let me try again, was Abraham (as) promoted, demoted or given a title/grade of a similar level/status??? And Abraham was already a Messenger and Prophet, please do correct me if I go wrong, now what was the need for him to be tried by his Lord and then be made an Imam of the people??? Mmm?? He was already a Prophet to the people, so what was the need for him to become the Imam of the same people???

Here is another one to help you get, not an answer but answers to your question/s. you have Messenger hood and then you have Prophecy, what is the point and need of both??? You are a Messenger then what is the point and need for Prophecy??? Why do you become both??? Prophecy is above Messenger hood, yes??? Every Prophet is also a Messenger but not every Messenger is a Prophet, yes???

Now let me tell you a bit about Shiaism (12rs), just as Messenger hood and Prophecy are God made titles/grades/status and he chooses Messengers and Prophets, we also believe that Khilafath and Imamath are God made titles/grades/status and he alone chooses and selects Khalifas and Imams.

I don't know where you get your information from but exposing is one thing but propaganda is another.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Ameen on February 03, 2015, 11:22:14 PM
Start another discussion, start another thread etc, what lovely excuses. If you can't say anything here what are you going to say over there??? You ask questions, I try to reply and you start to play hide and seek.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Hani on February 03, 2015, 11:25:46 PM
Here is another one to help you get, not an answer but answers to your question/s. you have Messenger hood and then you have Prophecy, what is the point and need of both??? You are a Messenger then what is the point and need for Prophecy??? Why do you become both??? Prophecy is above Messenger hood, yes??? Every Prophet is also a Messenger but not every Messenger is a Prophet, yes???


I think you got it upside down my friend. Every Messenger is a Prophet but not every Prophet is a Messenger.


And let me tell you what's the difference between them:


A Messenger comes with a new message, a new law and a new scripture.


A Prophet comes to affirm and revive the scripture and law of the Messenger that preceded him.



Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Hani on February 03, 2015, 11:28:21 PM
Now since the Prophet's job is stated above and it is as you read, then what's the point of a divine Imam? Why not just another Prophet?


Since according to you guys the job of the Prophet and the job of the Imam is one and the same.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Ameen on February 03, 2015, 11:29:24 PM
You have plenty of Messengers but just being a Messenger you aren't the same. Even if you leave Prophecy out of this and you are just a Messenger, you're still not equal and the same. Prophets aren't even equal and the same. Why is the last one Afzalul Ambia e Wal Mursaleen??? What was so unique about this one??? What was the difference??? Or why were they all different when they were all Messengers and Prophets???

Now you ask yourself what is the definition of a Messenger and Prophet and what was their duty and job??? Also what is the difference between the two??? Come on and don't be afraid to answer. It won't hurt!
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Hani on February 03, 2015, 11:30:51 PM
Now you ask yourself what is the definition of a Messenger and Prophet and what was their duty and job??? Also what is the difference between the two??? Come on and don't be afraid to answer. It won't hurt!

I wrote the answer to that before you wrote this sad post of yours.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Ameen on February 03, 2015, 11:32:51 PM
Here is another one to help you get, not an answer but answers to your question/s. you have Messenger hood and then you have Prophecy, what is the point and need of both??? You are a Messenger then what is the point and need for Prophecy??? Why do you become both??? Prophecy is above Messenger hood, yes??? Every Prophet is also a Messenger but not every Messenger is a Prophet, yes???


I think you got it upside down my friend. Every Messenger is a Prophet but not every Prophet is a Messenger.


And let me tell you what's the difference between them:


A Messenger comes with a new message, a new law and a new scripture.


A Prophet comes to affirm and revive the scripture and law of the Messenger that preceded him.





Ok, can you back this up for me please that every Messenger is a Prophet but not every Prophet is a Messenegr!
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Hani on February 03, 2015, 11:35:36 PM
Yeah sure, give me a couple of minutes.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Ameen on February 03, 2015, 11:38:34 PM
Now since the Prophet's job is stated above and it is as you read, then what's the point of a divine Imam? Why not just another Prophet?


Since according to you guys the job of the Prophet and the job of the Imam is one and the same.
Now since the Prophet's job is stated above and it is as you read, then what's the point of a divine Imam? Why not just another Prophet?


Since according to you guys the job of the Prophet and the job of the Imam is one and the same.
Now since the Prophet's job is stated above and it is as you read, then what's the point of a divine Imam? Why not just another Prophet?


Since according to you guys the job of the Prophet and the job of the Imam is one and the same.

You said,

"Since according to you guys the job of the Prophet and the job of the Imam is one and the same",

LOL! Like I said, I don't know where you get your information from. No, absolutely not. This is very wrong. So I don't know what and who you are exposing, when your information is absolutely false!
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Ameen on February 03, 2015, 11:39:07 PM
Yeah sure, give me a couple of minutes.

Sure, thank you!
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Hani on February 03, 2015, 11:45:00 PM
Here you go,

Shia grand Ayatullah Ja`far al-Subhani says in “Mafaheem al-Qur’an” 3/217-218:

[The prophet, if he was sent with a new Shari`ah, or came with a new holy book, then his prophet-hood is Tashri`iyyah. On the other hand, if the prophet was sent for Da`wah(14) and guidance to the rulings previously established by Allah through past prophets, then his prophet-hood is Tablighiyyah. The first kind are messengers, and is restricted to five individuals mentioned in Qur’an and Hadith, as for the majority, they are from the second kind, they were sent to promote the religion that was revealed upon the messengers so their prophet-hood is Tablighiyyah.]

He says if a Prophet is sent with a divine message, he is called a Messenger. If not, then he remains a Prophet. He also says that the Messengers we know, are no more than five individuals.

This is confirmed by Shia philosopher Murtada al-Mutahhari in  “al-Wahi wal-Nubuwwah” pg28-30:

[Now we must see why was prophet-hood renewed in the past, and prophets used to come continuously one by one, even though not all of them were bringers of Shari`ah and laws and most were sent to execute an available Shari`ah? and why did the matter (abruptly) end after the seal of prophets, and the Tashri`i prophet will no longer come, even the Tablighi prophet will no longer come? …why? by consensus most prophets were Tablighi not Tashri`i, and maybe the Tashri`i prophets numbers wouldn’t rise above the number of the fingers in your hand, and the job of the Tablighi prophets was to deliver Shari`ah and spread it and execute it and explain it.]

Also confirmed by Shia scholar al-`Allamah Ibraheem al-Ameeni in his book “al-Nubuwwah wal-Nabi” pg.138:

[So why is there no more need for Tablighi prophets to promote these Shari’ah laws, just like Allah would send after the messengers of Ulil-`Azm, he would send many prophets after them to promote the previous Shari`ah and spread its message to coming generations?  it is possible for us to say that human society in the time of the coming of the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) had reached mental integrity and intellectual maturity to an extent that it became good enough to preserve the teachings of the prophets, and protect them from the danger of accidents, and that society itself can deliver the sacred virtues and knowledge, so society becomes self sufficient, so there was no more need to send prophets.]

So prophets are two kinds, one kind is Tablighi and the other is Tashri`i, the second kind are messengers. Thus ever Messenger is a Prophet but not every Prophet is a Messenger.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Hani on February 03, 2015, 11:47:28 PM

You said,

"Since according to you guys the job of the Prophet and the job of the Imam is one and the same",

LOL! Like I said, I don't know where you get your information from. No, absolutely not. This is very wrong. So I don't know what and who you are exposing, when your information is absolutely false!

Well that's what your scholars say.

Prophets are divinely chosen and so are Imams, both are infallible, both are supposed to be the leaders, both are tasked with guiding humanity and spreading justice etc...

So why is my information (which I read in your books) false?
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Ameen on February 03, 2015, 11:49:55 PM
Brothers as far as my limited knowledge and information goes, messenger hood and Prophecy was/is a form of communication between God and mankind (people). A Messenger and or Prophet passes information to people from God as messages. The main form of communication between Messenger and or Prophet and God is Gabriel (as).

A Messenger passes information in the form of verbal messages, where as a Prophet passes information in the form commandments. Out of the Prophets we have four great Prophets, upon them an entire book has been revealed. Or you can say they introduced revelation.

This is not me v you, it might be for you but not for me. Do correct me or if you disagree or differ then, I would like to here it.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Hani on February 03, 2015, 11:54:44 PM
What I believe is exactly as I quoted from the books of the biggest Shia scholars above.


You have Messengers who bring a new law. Prophets who affirm the past laws and revive them.


The only difference between a Messenger and a Prophet is that Messengers bring a new divine book, other than that they have the same exact job.


Now we want you, the Twelver, to tell us what's the difference between the divinely appointed Prophet and the divinely appointed Imam?


Give us some differences.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Rationalist on February 04, 2015, 12:05:40 AM


Now let me tell you a bit about Shiaism (12rs), just as Messenger hood and Prophecy are God made titles/grades/status and he chooses Messengers and Prophets, we also believe that Khilafath and Imamath are God made titles/grades/status and he alone chooses and selects Khalifas and Imams.
Okay fine! Let's get into epistemology, and this way you can help me gain a better understanding.

A Prophets knowledge comes from Wahi. Now tell me where does an Imam's knowledge come from ? What make a divinely appointed Imam unique in comparison to another descendant of Fatima (sa) who is claiming Imamate ?

Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Rationalist on February 04, 2015, 12:07:24 AM
What I believe is exactly as I quoted from the books of the biggest Shia scholars above.


You have Messengers who bring a new law. Prophets who affirm the past laws and revive them.


The only difference between a Messenger and a Prophet is that Messengers bring a new divine book, other than that they have the same exact job.


Now we want you, the Twelver, to tell us what's the difference between the divinely appointed Prophet and the divinely appointed Imam?


Give us some differences.

The answers to this question from their point of view are found in Al Kafi. But these answers show that Imamate is not superior to Prophethood.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Hani on February 04, 2015, 12:09:39 AM

The answers to this question from their point of view are found in Al Kafi. But these answers show that Imamate is not superior to Prophethood.

You mean it proves that Ibrahim (as) was demoted? = )
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Ameen on February 04, 2015, 12:15:31 AM

You said,

"Since according to you guys the job of the Prophet and the job of the Imam is one and the same",

LOL! Like I said, I don't know where you get your information from. No, absolutely not. This is very wrong. So I don't know what and who you are exposing, when your information is absolutely false!

Well that's what your scholars say.

Prophets are divinely chosen and so are Imams, both are infallible, both are supposed to be the leaders, both are tasked with guiding humanity and spreading justice etc...

So why is my information (which I read in your books) false?

First of all brother it is a clear belief of the Shias that no book is 100% authentic/accurate apart from the Quran, unlike the Sunnis who hold other books 100% authentic/accurate along with and just like the Quran. Example; the book Bukhari. This is not just Bukhari but it is Sehih Bukhari. It is not just Sehih Bukhari but it is also baad az Kithab e Bari.

Secondly all due respect to all scholars, what ever they write in their book is either a collection or they have recorded something (record) or they have mentioned both or the other side of the argument. It doesn't mean that this is their thought, opinion and point of view.

Thirdly what every they say or believe in, what ever their thought, opinion and point of view may be, it is not necessary, compulsory or mandatory for people to believe in and hold that thought, opinion and point of view as their own. But what you have said and mentioned that Prophets and Imams are the same, their duty and job is the same, their status is the same etc, what ever else is absolutely wrong to begin with.

I don't know where this has been said and who said it but I would definitely like some references to this. A Prophets duty and job is to bring, introduce and spread Shariath and an Imams job is to protect, defend and safe guard it and this is exactly what the Imams of the Muslim Ummah after the last Prophet (pbuh) did.

Not our Imams but Imams of the Ummah. Just like God gives Rizq to everyone, he is everyone's God. Those who believe in him and those who don't, he is still God no matter what and gives Rizq to everyone, whether you worship him or not he is still God.

The Messengers and or Prophets are still what they are, whether you believe in them or not. And the same applies to the Imams. They are who they are and their duty and job was to protect, defend and safeguard Islam. Allah wouldn't and definitely didn't leave Quran and Sunnah in the hands of ordinary people.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Hani on February 04, 2015, 12:37:52 AM

Quote
First of all brother it is a clear belief of the Shias that no book is 100% authentic/accurate apart from the Quran, unlike the Sunnis who hold other books 100% authentic/accurate along with and just like the Quran. Example; the book Bukhari. This is not just Bukhari but it is Sehih Bukhari. It is not just Sehih Bukhari but it is also baad az Kithab e Bari.

Do Shia have to keep repeating this old record of un-authentic books? It's okay man, we know your books are corrupt and full of weak nonsense, you don't have to remind us that you have nothing Sahih.



Quote
Secondly all due respect to all scholars, what ever they write in their book is either a collection or they have recorded something (record) or they have mentioned both or the other side of the argument. It doesn't mean that this is their thought, opinion and point of view.


The ones I quoted it is their own opinion, so don't worry. You can buy their books and verify for yourself... Oh wait, you don't know Arabic, well too bad.


(So far nothing you wrote is related to our topic of discussion, let's hope you answer in the next paragraph)



Quote
Thirdly what every they say or believe in, what ever their thought, opinion and point of view may be, it is not necessary, compulsory or mandatory for people to believe in and hold that thought, opinion and point of view as their own. But what you have said and mentioned that Prophets and Imams are the same, their duty and job is the same, their status is the same etc, what ever else is absolutely wrong to begin with.


That's what you say, but your scholars say that an Imam is exactly like a Prophet except he isn't a Prophet. For example Shia scholar Muhsin al-Kharazi says in “Bidayat al-Ma`arif al-Ilahiya” 1/11:


[Also the Imam has the qualities of the prophet because he’s his successor, so if the prophet was infallible then he also is infallible (…) and thus the Imam takes the place of the prophet and has all of his qualities except that he isn’t a prophet.]


But I understand if you say your scholars are ignorant of what is correct whereas only you know what is correct, perfectly understandable.



Quote
I don't know where this has been said and who said it but I would definitely like some references to this. A Prophets duty and job is to bring, introduce and spread Shariath and an Imams job is to protect, defend and safe guard it and this is exactly what the Imams of the Muslim Ummah after the last Prophet (pbuh) did.


That's because the last Prophet is a MESSENGER, and your Imams are doing the job of Prophets. And we've already quoted evidence for this in case you missed it where your scholars described exactly what a Prophet does and what a Tashri`ee Prophet(Messenger) does.


Here you go, `Allamah Ibrahim al-Ameeni says in “al-Nubuwwah wal-Nabi” pg137-138:


[If we say that the need to send prophets from ulil-`Azm(15) is no longer present, because the rulings and laws are completed, and religious knowledge is perfected, but why would there not be a need for Tablighi prophets who promote these laws? just as Allah would send after each prophet of Shari`ah many other prophets, so they can promote the Shari`ah and deliver it to later generations, so why would Allah not send after the prophet of Islam other prophets to deliver the ‘muhammadi message’ and promote it, while acknowledging that the presence of such prophets is something necessary and beneficial for societies.]


He says Tashri`ee Messengers bring the laws, whereas Tablighee Prophets "promote" them and "spread" them.


Just as Muhammad (saw) who is a Messenger brought the laws, and the Imams are tasked with promoting and spreading them.



Quote
The Messengers and or Prophets are still what they are, whether you believe in them or not. And the same applies to the Imams. They are who they are and their duty and job was to protect, defend and safeguard Islam. Allah wouldn't and definitely didn't leave Quran and Sunnah in the hands of ordinary people.


Not in the hands of ordinary people? Well why not send Prophets, since they have the same job as your Imams?

Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Hani on February 04, 2015, 12:41:23 AM
Ameen, so as to not waste your time and ours, concentrate on this.


You're saying, the Imams are not like the Prophets.


But you're not telling us what those differences are, what are those differences? List them.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Ameen on February 04, 2015, 10:21:54 AM
Ok brother Hani, it's like bagging your head against the wall when it comes to discussion on such forums.

I don't need to repeat myself and remind you constantly if you change your stance. Let me put this out once again.

Our books are rubbish, weak, full of nonsense and anything else you have in mind, brother keep your personal opinion out of this.

Now what about your comments??? Are they not sarcastic and pathetic??? This is what you accuse of. Brother you know what I mean.

We are not like you who believe and claim that our books are authentic then, start to refute bits and pieces from that book.

We don't have double standards brother. Will continue this.









Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Ameen on February 04, 2015, 11:57:14 AM
So you want a list about the differences between Imams and Prophets. Ok, here we go;

A Prophets duty and job is to bring, introduce and spread the message, and Imams job is to protect, defend and safeguard it.

A Prophets duty and job is to explain and clarify the measage, where as the Imams duty and job is to give further explanation and clarification.

A Prophet is the warner where as the Imam is the guider. Every prime minister has his deputy. The knowledge is given to both by Allah to carry out their duties.

There duty and job is different but closely linked. I will wait for you to dig out something from here to raise suspicion and cast doubt.

Don't worry, I will continue to answer. This is something you can't/won't do. But there you go!









 



Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Ameen on February 04, 2015, 12:03:57 PM
So tell me brother Hani, who is superior, Messenger or Prophet??? You believe that every Messenger is a Prophet but not every Prophet is a Messenger, is this what you believe in???

The four books were revealed on four Prophets; Daud, Eesa, Musa and Muhammad (pbut).  what is your opinion on them???

Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Hani on February 04, 2015, 04:10:17 PM
Well everything you wrote contradicts what your scholars said in the previous posts.


You said:



Quote
A Prophets duty and job is to bring, introduce and spread the message, and Imams job is to protect, defend and safeguard it.


That's incorrect, according to your scholars A Messenger's job is to bring and introduce and spread the message  as well as explaining it and protecting it.


The Prophet's job is to only explain and protect and spread what was already revealed on the Messenger. This is the exact same thing the Imam does.


Both the Imam and the Prophet are tasked with protecting and safeguarding the message.


So no, that ain't no difference.



Quote
A Prophets duty and job is to explain and clarify the measage, where as the Imams duty and job is to give further explanation and clarification.


That makes no sense, where'd you get this from? Anyways it matters not because essentially what you wrote above means that both the Prophets and the Imams are tasked with explaining and clarifying.



Quote
A Prophet is the warner where as the Imam is the guider. Every prime minister has his deputy. The knowledge is given to both by Allah to carry out their duties.


Are you joking? YOU Just wrote a few lines above that it is the Prophet's job to spread, explain and clarify, HOW IS THIS NOT GUIDING!!? Do you understand what the word "Guide" means??


Don't you read the Qur'an:


{And thus We have revealed to you an inspiration of Our command. You did not know what is the Book or [what is] faith, but We have made it a light by which We guide whom We will of Our servants. And indeed, [O Muhammad], you guide to a straight path} [42:52]



Quote
There duty and job is different but closely linked. I will wait for you to dig out something from here to raise suspicion and cast doubt.


It's not "closely linked" It's the EXACT SAME JOB, and the Prophet as well as the Imam have the EXACT SAME QUALITIES.



Ayatullah sheikh Muhammad Baqir al-Hakim says in “al-Imamah wa Ahlul-Bayt al-Nazariyah wal-Istidlal” pg.112:


[All the proofs of the intellect that can be used to prove the necessity of prophet-hood, can also be used intellectually to prove the necessity of Imamah, because the Imam is like the prophet when it comes to his responsibilities and missions]


MEANING THEY DO THE SAME EXACT THINGS, If one is a Guide then the other is a Guide, If one is a Warner then the other is a Warner, if one Protects the religion and spreads it, then the other Protects the religion and spreads it.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Hani on February 04, 2015, 04:13:47 PM
So tell me brother Hani, who is superior, Messenger or Prophet??? You believe that every Messenger is a Prophet but not every Prophet is a Messenger, is this what you believe in???

The four books were revealed on four Prophets; Daud, Eesa, Musa and Muhammad (pbut).  what is your opinion on them???




You clearly have no idea what your own sect believes, here let me give you a helping hand.

Shia leader al-Mufid says in “Awa’il al-Maqalat” pg.45:

[ 8- The difference between the Prophets and the Messengers (as):
The Imami (Shia) have consensus that every messenger is a prophet but not every prophet is a messenger, from the prophets of Allah are those who preserve/protect the religious laws passed down by the messengers, they are their successors in this matter. The religious law has only prohibited us from claiming prophet-hood for our Imams although the intellect does not prohibit this, because they(Imams) have acquired what we have mentioned for the prophets peace be upon them.]



Meaning they're the SAME, everything a Prophet has the Imam also has it.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Hani on February 04, 2015, 04:42:25 PM
Also what Sayyid Muhsin al-Khazazi says in "Bidayat al-Ma`arif al-Ilahiyyah" 1/213:

ثم إن الفرق بين النبي والرسول كما في تفسير الميزان هو أن النبي، هو الذي ببين للناس صلاح معاشهم ومعادهم من أصول الدين وفروعه، على ما اقتضته عناية الله من هداية الناس إلى سعادتهم، والرسول هو الحامل لرسالة خاصة مشتملة على إتمام الحجة، يستتبع مخالفته هلاكة أو عذابا أو نحو ذلك

[The difference between the prophet and the messenger as is written in Tafseer al-Mizan, is that a prophet is one who guides people to acquiring goodness in their worldly life and the after-life, he explains the fundamentals of religion and its branches as per-Allah's Will to guide people and bring them happiness, The messenger is the one carrying a special message to perfect the divine argument, whoever opposes (his message) will be punished and perish.]
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Ameen on February 06, 2015, 12:55:11 AM
Bro I asked you what you believe in. I haven't got your point of view. Forget about what my Fiqah and sect thinks, what do you think??? What does yours think???
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Hani on February 06, 2015, 01:34:24 AM
Review post #29.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Ijtaba on November 09, 2015, 01:47:08 AM
As-salaam o Alaikum.

Brother Hani has given correct definition of Messenger and Prophet which I as a Shia believe.

It is true that we shias believe our 12 Imams (a.s) to be superior than all Prophets and Messengers except Nabi Mohammed (s.a.w.w).

However I have some questions which I hope knowledgeable brothers over here could answer:

Q1. Is there any Shiite ahadith which says that Office of Imamate is Afhdal than Office of Prophethood and Office of Messengerhood? I am asking this question because whenever any Shia scholar is questioned about station of Imamate being afhdal than Nabuwat and Risalat the scholar answers by giving the Quranic verse referring to Imamate of Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) and then his opinions. The scholar does not answer backed by any ahadith of our Imams (a.s) saying that Imamate is a station superior than Nabuwat and Risalat.

02. Except for Imam Ali (a.s) and Imam Mehdi (a.s) [the reason given by shias is that Nabi Isa (a.s) would read Salah behind Imam Mehdi (a.s) so this makes Imam Mehdi (a.s) superior to Nabi Isa (a.s)] I have yet to see hadiths which state in-between Imams (a.s) superiority to Prophets and Messengers except Nabi Mohammed (s.a.w.w). So are there any Shiite hadiths which say Imam Hassan Mujtaba (a.s) to Imam Hassan Askari (a.s) are superior to Prophets and Messengers except Nabi Mohammed (s.a.w.w).

Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Farid on November 09, 2015, 03:12:17 AM
Wa alaykum alsalam wa rahmatullah,

I found an interesting chapter in Basa'ir Al Darajat by Al Saffar (d. 290) which is one of the earliest Shia books, that is called:

The Imams are Better than Musa and Al Khidr

The chapter contains five narrations. These narrations support the belief that Al Sadiq and Al Baqir had more knowledge than the prophets.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Hani on November 09, 2015, 03:46:54 AM
I think they have both, I recall reading some texts that imply that Imamah is a rank second only to prophet-hood, yet they also have tons of reports showing that the Imams are un-equaled in rank, piety, knowledge etc...

The Shia view that Imams are better than prophets is very problematic and corrupt, it can also be easily dis-proven with intellect but no need to get into it now.

As for the argument that `Isa (as) praying behind the Mahdi is evidence that the latter is greater, this is corrupt since our Prophet (saw) prayed behind `Abdu-Rahman ibn `Awf in one occasion and behind Abu Bakr at the end of his life. Notice the difference though, when the Prophet (saw) prayed behind those two men, he did so because he came late from his travels and he happened to come in a time when the people were praying, he would never allow anyone to lead besides himself when he was present and in good health. On the other hand, al-Mahdi who was present and healthy had offered `Isa (as) the choice of leading, knowing his status of prophet-hood, `Isa (as) only prays behind al-Mahdi out of respect for the nation of Muhammad (saw) and because it is the Sunnah of our Prophet (saw) that the people must pray behind the Caliph who they gave Bay`ah to, this was al-Mahdi at the time.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Ijtaba on November 10, 2015, 12:49:20 AM
Wa alaykum alsalam wa rahmatullah,

I found an interesting chapter in Basa'ir Al Darajat by Al Saffar (d. 290) which is one of the earliest Shia books, that is called:

The Imams are Better than Musa and Al Khidr

The chapter contains five narrations. These narrations support the belief that Al Sadiq and Al Baqir had more knowledge than the prophets.

Thank you brother for your answer. Can you verify the authenticity of these narrations? Also does being more knowledgeable imply superiority. I am asking this because it is natural for people to have knowledge about their time and history but as for future it is ilm e Ghaib. Therefore as Imams (a.s) were living in future time compared to Prophets (a.s) then for Imam what is history and known would be ilm e Ghaib for Prophet Musa (a.s) and Khidr (a.s) as for them that would be future events.

I think they have both, I recall reading some texts that imply that Imamah is a rank second only to prophet-hood, yet they also have tons of reports showing that the Imams are un-equaled in rank, piety, knowledge etc...

The Shia view that Imams are better than prophets is very problematic and corrupt, it can also be easily dis-proven with intellect but no need to get into it now.

As for the argument that `Isa (as) praying behind the Mahdi is evidence that the latter is greater, this is corrupt since our Prophet (saw) prayed behind `Abdu-Rahman ibn `Awf in one occasion and behind Abu Bakr at the end of his life. Notice the difference though, when the Prophet (saw) prayed behind those two men, he did so because he came late from his travels and he happened to come in a time when the people were praying, he would never allow anyone to lead besides himself when he was present and in good health. On the other hand, al-Mahdi who was present and healthy had offered `Isa (as) the choice of leading, knowing his status of prophet-hood, `Isa (as) only prays behind al-Mahdi out of respect for the nation of Muhammad (saw) and because it is the Sunnah of our Prophet (saw) that the people must pray behind the Caliph who they gave Bay`ah to, this was al-Mahdi at the time.

Brother Hani I also believe what you said above regarding praying behind someone does not make them superior to be true.

I believe we shias can't back Imamate being superior to Nabuwah by authentic Shiite hadiths. There maybe such hadiths but I have yet to see them. Whenever we are asked this question I see most scholars giving their own opinions instead of backing up by authentic hadiths.

I believe using Qur'anic verse (Imamate of Ibrahim a.s) to support superiority of Imamate over Prophethood is flawed reasoning. If we follow this logic then this would mean Kingship is superior to Prophethood as both Prophets Dawud (a.s) and Sulaiman (a.s) were already Prophets when they were made Kings. They were made Prophets first and Kings afterwards. So this does not mean Kingship is afdal than Nabuwah.
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: Ibn Yahya on November 10, 2015, 02:49:27 AM
Wa alaykum alsalam wa rahmatullah,

I found an interesting chapter in Basa'ir Al Darajat by Al Saffar (d. 290) which is one of the earliest Shia books, that is called:

The Imams are Better than Musa and Al Khidr

The chapter contains five narrations. These narrations support the belief that Al Sadiq and Al Baqir had more knowledge than the prophets.
In al-Kafi there's a narration that the Imams inherit all the knowledge of their predecessors. Which is silly then because that would mean that as-Sadiq is more knowledgable than the Prophet and 'Ali
Title: Re: What's the Point of Prophethood When Imamate is Present ?
Post by: GreatChineseFall on November 10, 2015, 02:36:41 PM

"When Abraham (as) was tried by his Lord and he succeeded then he was made an Imam of the people",

Now I am sure that you know what Abraham (as) was before he was put through a test, when he succeeded he was made an Imam. This means he wasn't one before. And he was only made an Imam after being tried and after succeeding.

Now ask yourself this with a wide mind and an open heart, was he promoted??? Was he demoted??? Or was he given a title/grade/status of a similar level/stage????


Technically, the answer to this doesn't matter for the question of superiority of an imam over a prophet. If he was demoted, it doesn't help you.
If we assume that there is such a station like imamate/imam (this is contested) and if we assume this ayah indicates a promotion ( also contested), then still it's not related to that question.

We might conclude that someone who is both a prophet and an imam has a higher status than someone who is just a prophet. We don't know anything about just an imam, which the thread was about.

Similarly when prophet Suleiman was made a king, we might conclude that someone who is both a prophet and a king has a higher status, we can't say that a king has a higher status than a prophet.

You can strengthen your opinion by showing that prophet Ibrahim stopped being a prophet when he became an imam.


As for what's the wisdom behind Imamate, I say what's the point of ending Prophet-hood if they are to be succeeded by "Imams" who are exactly like them heck even better!?


The usual response is that this is irrelevant as well, the wisdom behind it might be subtle, like why is there a gap between prophets and people are misguided?


A Prophets duty and job is to explain and clarify the measage, where as the Imams duty and job is to give further explanation and clarification.


Can you explain and clarify (further) what the difference is between explaining and clarifying and explaining and clarifying further?

As for the rest of the topic, the question of why something is as it is, is a hard one and you will get the same answer. To be fair, technically they have a point, not all reasons can be known. Positions should be rejected because of lack of proper evidence, not because of a lack of a valid reason

You can even question the entire idea of having a divine book as it serves no real purpose if you have continuously a divinely guided imam to refer to. A book can store information much longer than the lifetime of the messenger of that book which can be used to refer to as evidence at a later time. If you always have a guiding imam just ask him who can answer much more directly than a book.