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What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis

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muslim720

Re: What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2016, 01:51:19 PM »
Quote from: اولي الالباب link=topic=1439.msg13097#msg13097
I will explain to you why you are astray, which is the same answer to your second question and answer  after you tell me the system of government of Islam. 

Ughhh, our Shia brothers, full on rhetoric, low on logic, deprived of imagination.  For once, can you all be a little more original and perhaps new?  The same old tactic.  "I know the answer but you are wrong.  I will tell you the answer only after you answer my question".  In other words, your mind is set that only your answer is correct whereas it is clear that you have no point and you hope for the discussion to be straitjacketed to your liking.  Unfortunately for you, there are alternatives to straitjacketing.  In your majaalis, such tactics - coming from the pulpits - seem foolproof but in real world, they make you seem unintelligent and lacking originality.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 01:53:00 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2016, 04:23:28 PM »
Quote
What is the system of government in Islam then? Do enlighten me with the knowledge of the Sunnah of the prophet (s.a.a.w.w.).

It is the election of a leader by a council/shura.

Before you look to 'refute' this, think of all the shia governments & movements i.e Iran, hezbollah, etc.
They all have a council who chooses a normal human being.
Are they unislamic too in your view?

muslim720

Re: What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2016, 07:12:49 PM »
Our system of government is based on following 12 Infallibles [ra], the last of whom is hiding when he should be ruling (and guiding) us.  While he is in occultation, we elect this one and opt for that one.  In his stead, we follow Wilayat e Faqih but when he comes back, it will be.....who knows!  We will wait for his proper and correct guidance upon his reappearance.  Until then, we are right and everyone else is wrong.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Re: What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2016, 10:20:59 PM »
Okay explain to me how the system is developed/started, and how it is improved

I can't believe you're seriously asking this question on a forum, it's like asking someone how to engineer a submarine on a public forum, the answer being many volumes of mathematics and physics etc... The question can be directed to qualified men of law and expert jurists.

When `Umar created the Diwan and established it as a system to spend on certain deserving categories of people in the Islamic state, this system was not available in Abu Bakr's reign. Therefore, this is how that form of government improved and evolved. Keep in mind that the method of producing and organizing the Diwan was never stated in any Islamic divine text, it was human effort, Islam did not dictate a specific system for this.

how the people choose the leader

Depends on the system in place. In some countries leadership is inherited, in others a council of experts chooses, in others all people vote and choose etc... Obviously the contitution needs to specify what are the qualifications for a person to run and be selected in the first place. An Islamic state can place the rule that the Imam must always be Muslim.

how do you know a person or “leader” is mujtahid and his level of ijtihad?

You mean a jurist or scholar? Scholars are usually recognized by all other scholars and laypeople in their areas. I don't think society with its learned men and educated scholars will have any issues figuring out if a man is a scholar. In the US, there are presidential debates for instance, these are televised and each nominee is judged by the expert panel and the people.

Quote
What is the system of government in Islam then? Do enlighten me with the knowledge of the Sunnah of the prophet (s.a.a.w.w.).

It is the election of a leader by a council/shura.

Before you look to 'refute' this, think of all the shia governments & movements i.e Iran, hezbollah, etc.
They all have a council who chooses a normal human being.
Are they unislamic too in your view?
^^^You just like Shiekh, need to understand and get through your head that I am talking about System of government in ISLAM not countries.



Now first and foremost I collected what you said and others too who said the same thing and came up with two different types of governments depending on the time period that the people choose, “The system is whatever the people choose as a system that's adequate for the situation and time they live in” Now this is quiet problematic and contradicts your second system of government regarding inheritance. You said One of them being Shura the people (scholars) choose the leader” and the other is “inheritance” (Hani: In some countries leadership is inherited, in others a council of experts chooses, in others all people vote and choose etc...).
Now after the government of Abu bakr who you claim that he was chosen by the people under the Saqifa, how come Omar was given authority by Abu Bakr and not the choice of the people? Same with Uthman, how come he was given the authority through Omar, when you clearly said that the system is “whatever people choose”. Now according to your statements, wouldn't that make the leadership of Omar and Uthman illegitimate? because they were GIVEN authority not CHOSEN?





(by the way I will answer your question about being lost when I answer you about the shia side of system of government of Islam, it's a different topic let's finish this one)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 10:25:54 PM by اولي الالباب »
[الزمر 18]
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
الَّذِينَ يَسْتَمِعُونَ الْقَوْلَ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ أَحْسَنَهُ ۚ أُولَئِكَ الَّذِينَ هَدَاهُمُ اللَّهُ ۖ وَأُولَئِكَ هُمْ أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ
صدق الله العلي العظيم

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2016, 02:38:36 AM »


Quote
^^^You just like Shiekh, need to understand and get through your head that I am talking about System of government in ISLAM not countries.


I already answered that in Islam the system of goverance is a leader elected by a council/shura. The previous leader may or may not influence the selection of the next leader.

Do you agree with this or not?

If you don't agree then why do all shia have a council who elects their leader in present times?

Why are the shia using the sunni method?



« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 02:42:22 AM by zaid_ibn_ali »

Re: What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2016, 02:47:44 AM »

Quote
What is the system of government in Islam then? Do enlighten me with the knowledge of the Sunnah of the prophet (s.a.a.w.w.).

It is the election of a leader by a council/shura.

Before you look to 'refute' this, think of all the shia governments & movements i.e Iran, hezbollah, etc.
They all have a council who chooses a normal human being.
Are they unislamic too in your view?
^^^You just like Shiekh, need to understand and get through your head that I am talking about System of government in ISLAM not countries.


I already answered that in Islam the system of goverance is a leader elected by a council/shura. The previous leader may or may not influence the selection of the next leader.

Do you agree with this or not?

If you don't agree then why do all shia have a council who elects their leader in present times?

Why are the shia using the sunni method?

"I already answered that in Islam the system of goverance is a leader elected by a council/shura. The previous leader may or may not influence the selection of the next leader."

EXACTLY! If Shura is the method, How come Abu Bakr gave the authority to Omar who then gave it to Uthman?That means abu bakr went against the shura since he chose a leader without the elections of the council making the leadership and khalifates, of Omar and Uthman illegitimate because they WERE NOT voted?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 02:58:21 AM by اولي الالباب »
[الزمر 18]
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
الَّذِينَ يَسْتَمِعُونَ الْقَوْلَ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ أَحْسَنَهُ ۚ أُولَئِكَ الَّذِينَ هَدَاهُمُ اللَّهُ ۖ وَأُولَئِكَ هُمْ أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ
صدق الله العلي العظيم

al-Habib

Re: What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2016, 02:59:45 AM »
You keep misunderstanding what everyone is saying.  As it has been said earlier the system varies depending on the circumstances of the time.  Sometimes it's inheritance, sometimes it's consultation and sometimes it's appointment.  When it was said that the system is "whatever people choose" it doesn't necessarily mean it's what every last citizen of the Islamic State opts for. 

Side question:  why are Shiites so obsessed with politics in Islam?  A set system of governance was never emphasized by the Prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم) so why do you people keep raving about it?

Re: What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis
« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2016, 03:37:19 AM »
You keep misunderstanding what everyone is saying.  As it has been said earlier the system varies depending on the circumstances of the time.  Sometimes it's inheritance, sometimes it's consultation and sometimes it's appointment.  When it was said that the system is "whatever people choose" it doesn't necessarily mean it's what every last citizen of the Islamic State opts for. 

Side question:  why are Shiites so obsessed with politics in Islam?  A set system of governance was never emphasized by the Prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم) so why do you people keep raving about it?
Oh trust me I know EXACTLY what you said and YOU know exactly what I SAID. You are just spinning around because your answer either say the legitimacy of khalifate of Umar and Uthman are illegitimate because they were not voted, or if you want to change your answer from Shura to something else, you have sacrificed abu bakr and said HIS khalifate is illegitimate.

Now,  who gave abu bakr the authority (amr) to change the system? I thought it was the people that choose whatever they want?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 03:45:54 AM by اولي الالباب »
[الزمر 18]
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
الَّذِينَ يَسْتَمِعُونَ الْقَوْلَ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ أَحْسَنَهُ ۚ أُولَئِكَ الَّذِينَ هَدَاهُمُ اللَّهُ ۖ وَأُولَئِكَ هُمْ أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ
صدق الله العلي العظيم

al-Habib

Re: What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis
« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2016, 03:45:49 AM »
Hani, a few others and I have said that there is no ser system of government (or choosing leaders) as long as nothing is violated in the Shari'ah of course.  We never necessitated that it had to be shura, rather, that it is one of the ways that a leader can be chosen.  Also, who says shura has to be by scholars?

Abu Bakr didn't just choose the leader.  He referred to senior sahabis (including Ali) before choosing Umar.  Abu Bakr doesn't need anyone's authority to choose the leader anyways, he's the Caliph.

Re: What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis
« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2016, 06:17:55 AM »
Hani, a few others and I have said that there is no ser system of government (or choosing leaders) as long as nothing is violated in the Shari'ah of course.  We never necessitated that it had to be shura, rather, that it is one of the ways that a leader can be chosen.  Also, who says shura has to be by scholars?

Abu Bakr didn't just choose the leader.  He referred to senior sahabis (including Ali) before choosing Umar.  Abu Bakr doesn't need anyone's authority to choose the leader anyways, he's the Caliph.
Also, who says shura has to be by scholars? <--- Your friend hani and zaid ibn Ali did. Read previous comments.

Abu Bakr didn't just choose the leader.  He referred to senior sahabis (including Ali) before choosing Umar.  Abu Bakr doesn't need anyone's authority to choose the leader anyways, he's the Caliph. <---Give me the source where it says abu bakr referred to Imam Ali a.s. Also You contradicted yourself and your fellow sunnis who said a leader had to be chosen through inheritance and shura, you say a leader can choose whoever he wants? Good, who gave abu bakr the authority (amr) to rule?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 06:21:21 AM by اولي الالباب »
[الزمر 18]
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
الَّذِينَ يَسْتَمِعُونَ الْقَوْلَ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ أَحْسَنَهُ ۚ أُولَئِكَ الَّذِينَ هَدَاهُمُ اللَّهُ ۖ وَأُولَئِكَ هُمْ أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ
صدق الله العلي العظيم

Abu Muhammad

Re: What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis
« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2016, 03:04:33 PM »
I don't see any contradictions by the brothers here. What they showed you were just different types of system of government. It is simply because "whatever people choose" here means there is no specific system of government. It depends on circumstances as long as it respects the divine law and adhere to it.

al-Habib

Re: What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis
« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2016, 05:33:40 PM »
At the beginning of Jumada al-Ukhra (13 AH), Abu Bakr caught a fever and its intensity continued unabated for a fortnight. When he grew sure of his last hours drawing near, he sent for Abdur Rahman bin Awf and held consultation (Shura) with him regarding the Caliphate…following this, he called Uthman bin Affan and put the same question to him. He (Uthman) said in reply: “Umar’s internal self is better than his external one; he is superior to us all.” When Ali was consulted, he made almost the same answer. Then came Talhah…

(Tareekh al-Islam, Vol.1, pp.312-313)

During the process of Shura, it was only Abdur Rahman bin Awf (رضّى الله عنه) and Talhah (رضّى الله عنه) who raised any objections to Umar (رضّى الله عنه) , but then Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) countered these points of contention, and then Abdur Rahman (رضّى الله عنه) and Talhah (رضّى الله عنه) both agreed with Abu Bakr’s rebuttal, so the matter was settled. As for Uthman (رضّى الله عنه) and Ali (رضّى الله عنه) , they both favored Umar (رضّى الله عنه) .

Therefore, we have established that the principle of Shura was very much involved in the nomination of Umar (رضّى الله عنه) ; the prominent representatives–including all the major figures of the Ansars and Muhajirs–selected Umar (رضّى الله عنه) after mutual consultation. Furthermore, Umar (رضّى الله عنه) secured the “consent of the governed”. We read:

…[Abu Bakr] said addressing this audience:

“I have not appointed any relative of mine as Caliph, and I have not installed Umar as Caliph on my own. I have rather done it only after holding consultations with men of sound judgment. Are you then agreed to his being your Caliph?”

Hearing this, they (the masses) said: “We all agree with your choice and opinion.”

Following this, he (Abu Bakr) said: “You should then carry out Umar’s orders and obey him.”


(Tareekh al-Islam, Vol.1, pp.313-314)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 05:35:02 PM by al-Habib »

Hani

Re: What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis
« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2016, 05:43:56 PM »
If we're talking about Abu Bakr nominating `Umar, the people asked him to nominate and he consulted with them before choosing `Umar.

Again I repeat, Islam as a religion produced broad guidelines, it did not dictate a specific type of government. It is up to the people to develop a system suitable for their time and circumstance. For example, Shia would like to be ruled by the hidden phantom, since he isn't in existence they were forced by circumstance to follow the example of Ahlul-Sunnah.

Whether a leader is chosen by consultation among elite, the vote of all citizens, or just plain inheritance, none of this conflicts with Islamic religion.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis
« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2016, 09:18:32 PM »

Quote
What is the system of government in Islam then? Do enlighten me with the knowledge of the Sunnah of the prophet (s.a.a.w.w.).

It is the election of a leader by a council/shura.

Before you look to 'refute' this, think of all the shia governments & movements i.e Iran, hezbollah, etc.
They all have a council who chooses a normal human being.
Are they unislamic too in your view?
^^^You just like Shiekh, need to understand and get through your head that I am talking about System of government in ISLAM not countries.


I already answered that in Islam the system of goverance is a leader elected by a council/shura. The previous leader may or may not influence the selection of the next leader.

Do you agree with this or not?

If you don't agree then why do all shia have a council who elects their leader in present times?

Why are the shia using the sunni method?

"I already answered that in Islam the system of goverance is a leader elected by a council/shura. The previous leader may or may not influence the selection of the next leader."

EXACTLY! If Shura is the method, How come Abu Bakr gave the authority to Omar who then gave it to Uthman?That means abu bakr went against the shura since he chose a leader without the elections of the council making the leadership and khalifates, of Omar and Uthman illegitimate because they WERE NOT voted?

If you have a problem with how Umar (ra) was chosen, then can you state whether you have a problem with khomeini choosing khameini??
Your shia leaders once again followed a sunni example.
Now tell me are khomeini & khameini were/are part of an islamic government?

You cannot answer this & you are dodging it.

You are just a joke.

Re: What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis
« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2016, 09:40:26 PM »
At the beginning of Jumada al-Ukhra (13 AH), Abu Bakr caught a fever and its intensity continued unabated for a fortnight. When he grew sure of his last hours drawing near, he sent for Abdur Rahman bin Awf and held consultation (Shura) with him regarding the Caliphate…following this, he called Uthman bin Affan and put the same question to him. He (Uthman) said in reply: “Umar’s internal self is better than his external one; he is superior to us all.” When Ali was consulted, he made almost the same answer. Then came Talhah…

(Tareekh al-Islam, Vol.1, pp.312-313)

During the process of Shura, it was only Abdur Rahman bin Awf (رضّى الله عنه) and Talhah (رضّى الله عنه) who raised any objections to Umar (رضّى الله عنه) , but then Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) countered these points of contention, and then Abdur Rahman (رضّى الله عنه) and Talhah (رضّى الله عنه) both agreed with Abu Bakr’s rebuttal, so the matter was settled. As for Uthman (رضّى الله عنه) and Ali (رضّى الله عنه) , they both favored Umar (رضّى الله عنه) .

Therefore, we have established that the principle of Shura was very much involved in the nomination of Umar (رضّى الله عنه) ; the prominent representatives–including all the major figures of the Ansars and Muhajirs–selected Umar (رضّى الله عنه) after mutual consultation. Furthermore, Umar (رضّى الله عنه) secured the “consent of the governed”. We read:

…[Abu Bakr] said addressing this audience:

“I have not appointed any relative of mine as Caliph, and I have not installed Umar as Caliph on my own. I have rather done it only after holding consultations with men of sound judgment. Are you then agreed to his being your Caliph?”

Hearing this, they (the masses) said: “We all agree with your choice and opinion.”

Following this, he (Abu Bakr) said: “You should then carry out Umar’s orders and obey him.”


(Tareekh al-Islam, Vol.1, pp.313-314)



1)Where does it say that Imam Ali a.s. was consulted? Liar.
2)Second of all I don't think you ever went to the university of Aisha for lying, she was the best liar and her followers too, but you are a bad student.  I told you I am not a sunni or wahabi who listens like sheep to everything.
ال عمران 61
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
لَّعْنَةَ اللّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ
صدق الله العلي العظيم

You haven't answered me, I ask you for the second time, WHO gave ABU BAKR the authority (amr) to lead the muslims?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 09:42:56 PM by اولي الالباب »
[الزمر 18]
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
الَّذِينَ يَسْتَمِعُونَ الْقَوْلَ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ أَحْسَنَهُ ۚ أُولَئِكَ الَّذِينَ هَدَاهُمُ اللَّهُ ۖ وَأُولَئِكَ هُمْ أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ
صدق الله العلي العظيم

Re: What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis
« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2016, 09:45:51 PM »
Okay, I'm convinced by your strong argument. I now understand we Shia are in great error for following a hidden fictional character. True Islam is a lot more practical than Shiasm.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2016, 03:35:23 AM by Hani »
[الزمر 18]
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
الَّذِينَ يَسْتَمِعُونَ الْقَوْلَ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ أَحْسَنَهُ ۚ أُولَئِكَ الَّذِينَ هَدَاهُمُ اللَّهُ ۖ وَأُولَئِكَ هُمْ أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ
صدق الله العلي العظيم

Hani

Re: What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis
« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2016, 09:59:25 PM »
I like how the text you quoted above clearly states Abu Bakr was consulting. Sadly, I have to stop this discussion here as you seem to be a vulgar and ungodly person, obviously reflecting the morals and ethics of your cult. You are banned.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ibn Yahya

Re: What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis
« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2016, 10:30:13 PM »


Your whole religion is a joke "people choose whatever they want". Now, to answer your question I told you I Don't care about governments you have your frontal lobe damaged, a donkey would have understood by now but you seem to not. I said I Don't care about governments, khameni rahimahullah or the dictator of saudi arabia I don't care about government positions, I am talking about I Slam Islam Islam Islam Islam Islam.

I thought we were oppressive and narrow minded wahhabis who dont allow people to have different opinions? So what does that make you?

Secondly Khamenei is obviously someone you venerate so is he a munafiq like Abu Bakr and 'Umar for not having an Islamic government? Also Saudi Arabia is a Monarchy not a dictatorship. Your inability to distinguish between the two proves you have no knowledge about how governments or politics work.

Thirdly Iran is an Islamic Republic so therefore it should have Islam as its system. No matter how many times you say Islam you're not convincing anyone your version of it is correct.

Abu Muhammad

Re: What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis
« Reply #58 on: August 27, 2016, 02:35:03 PM »
Please create a new thread if you want to talk about Aisha r.a. and Abu Bakr r.a.

al-Habib

Re: What is the system of government in Islam? Question to Sunnis/Wahabis
« Reply #59 on: August 27, 2016, 05:14:18 PM »
It's called the machine gun tactic where one tries to flood his opponent with a multitude of topics.  Much of what he has brought up has been refuted years ago on this very site. 

 

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