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Why didn't the 12th Imam Appoint an Infallible Representative ?

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Rationalist

Why didn't the 12th Imam Appoint an Infallible Representative ?
« on: February 14, 2015, 08:11:49 PM »
The 12ers say the Sunnis are wrong in assuming that the Prophet did not appoint anyone for the Caliphate. They say there should always be someone there for guidance to prevent misguidance. My question therefore is  before the 12th Imam went into gaiyba why didn't he appoint an infallible representative ?

Furkan

Re: Why didn't the 12th Imam Appoint an Infallible Representative ?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2015, 09:12:41 PM »
You really are a rationalist eh ? :D

Didn't the 12th imam appoint some fallible representatives? (the khums thiefs)
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Taha

Re: Why didn't the 12th Imam Appoint an Infallible Representative ?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2015, 09:48:24 PM »
^ After they died the major occultation started. Convenient timing, if you ask me :D

Furkan

Re: Why didn't the 12th Imam Appoint an Infallible Representative ?
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2015, 10:14:10 PM »
Is there an article actually about them?
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Hani

Re: Why didn't the 12th Imam Appoint an Infallible Representative ?
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2015, 10:17:26 PM »
Their book Ghaybat al-Tusi has a lot of news about these filthy scum.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: Why didn't the 12th Imam Appoint an Infallible Representative ?
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2015, 10:54:59 PM »
The 12ers say the Sunnis are wrong in assuming that the Prophet did not appoint anyone for the Caliphate. They say there should always be someone there for guidance to prevent misguidance. My question therefore is  before the 12th Imam went into gaiyba why didn't he appoint an infallible representative ?

Answer, he was the infallible representative himself. You're saying as though he ran in to occultation according to his own will. This was the desire of Allah that he took away the 12th Imam (as) because of how his chosen were treated. From there onwards right till today, take a look all the way through till now how the Muslim Ummah is. Things are getting from bad to worse and even more worse. The Ummah wants to govern themselves, people don't care or have no interest in who is in power, how they got in to power and what they are doing then Allah's way of saying,

"the hell with you for a limited time and get on with it".

Where is Jesus (as)??? Also in occultation but why??? According to you he did his job so what was the point of going in to hiding??? Might as well been crucified and become a martyr don't you think??? What was the point of this occultation??? And this occultation was confirmed thousands of years later from when it exactly happened. Why??? Where was the evidence of this occultation when or straight after it happened??? Those limited people who didn't believe in crucifixion and believed that Jesus (as) has gone in to occultation, how did this group justify this??? They must have also been questioned,

"Well if Jesus hasn't been crucified and is in occultation than prove it from the Bible".

Hani

Re: Why didn't the 12th Imam Appoint an Infallible Representative ?
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2015, 11:02:36 PM »
The Ummah wants to govern themselves, people don't care or have no interest in who is in power, how they got in to power and what they are doing then Allah's way of saying,

"the hell with you for a limited time and get on with it".


Best reply EVER!!!
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: Why didn't the 12th Imam Appoint an Infallible Representative ?
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2015, 04:43:08 AM »
Answer, he was the infallible representative himself. You're saying as though he ran in to occultation according to his own will.
Its in your own books.

Ikmaaluddin:

It is narrated from Ibne Musa from Asadi from Saad fromMuhammad bin Abdul Hamid and Abdus Samad bin Muhammad together from Hannan bin Sudair from Ali bin Hazur from Ibne Nubatah that he said: I heard Amirul Momineen (a.s.) say:

“The Master of this Affair is the runaway, the fugitive, the loner and the forlorn.”



Ikmaaluddin:

Shaykh Saduq has narrated from his father from Muhammad bin Yahya Attar from Ja’far bin Muhammad bin Malik from Hamadan bin Mansur from Saad bin Muhammad from Isa Khashshab that he said:

I said to Husain Ibne Ali (a.s.), “Are you the Awaited Patron of this Enterprise?” He said: “No, rather, the Patron of this Enterprise is the runaway, fugitive, the son of a non-avenged father, called by the patronymic of his uncle. He will put his sword on his shoulder for eight months.”


Quote
This was the desire of Allah that he took away the 12th Imam (as) because of how his chosen were treated. From there onwards right till today, take a look all the way through till now how the Muslim Ummah is. Things are getting from bad to worse and even more worse. The Ummah wants to govern themselves, people don't care or have no interest in who is in power, how they got in to power and what they are doing then Allah's way of saying,

"the hell with you for a limited time and get on with it".
Now I am confused. I thought the 12th Imam is supposed to come when the time gets really bad. But then you are saying he disappeared when it got worst. Isn't that when Imamate is most needed when things get worst ?

Quote
Where is Jesus (as)??? Also in occultation but why??? According to you he did his job so what was the point of going in to hiding??? Might as well been crucified and become a martyr don't you think??? What was the point of this occultation??? And this occultation was confirmed thousands of years later from when it exactly happened. Why??? Where was the evidence of this occultation when or straight after it happened??? Those limited people who didn't believe in crucifixion and believed that Jesus (as) has gone in to occultation, how did this group justify this??? They must have also been questioned,

"Well if Jesus hasn't been crucified and is in occultation than prove it from the Bible".

Now all the Muslims are unanimous on the return of Prophet Isa (as). The Zaidi, Ibadis and other Shia sect don't believe he will return. On top of that Shaykh Saduq said he died. Therefore, this is a flaw analogy if you ask. If Shaykh Saduq used an example he actually compared the Mahdi's disappearance to the Dajjal's disappearance.

Ameen

Re: Why didn't the 12th Imam Appoint an Infallible Representative ?
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2015, 11:46:48 AM »
Brothers thank you very much for your response.
"In your own books it says",

Sorry??? Excuse me??? "in our own books"???

There is no such things as "our own books". I have said this before that that we do not hold any book 100% authentic apart from the Quran. And it is not compulsory to believe in absolutely every single thing that any scholar has to say.

will continue this.





Furkan

Re: Why didn't the 12th Imam Appoint an Infallible Representative ?
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2015, 12:46:43 PM »
yes, we know your books are fabricated.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Ameen

Re: Why didn't the 12th Imam Appoint an Infallible Representative ?
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2015, 01:16:50 PM »
yes, we know your books are fabricated.

You claim that certain books of yours are authentic. And some you claim are 100% authentic just as and after the Quran.

But when any Shia comes along and provides references from those books to back their claims then, excuse fall in to place and questions are raised about the authenticity.

Well we don't have such double standards. We have principals and we stick to them. We are clean and clear on and about everything.

And you??? I will give you a more detailed reply on your double standards. Are will start a separate thread for this.










Furkan

Re: Why didn't the 12th Imam Appoint an Infallible Representative ?
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2015, 01:36:14 PM »
Dude, if al koei wants to take only sahih hadith of al kafi and put all of them into a book, then what happens? RIGHT, it becomes an authentic book filled with sahih hadith (ofcourse according to al khoei). Other scholars/marjas might disagree on SOME hadith, but in general it will be a SAHIH AL KAFI.

Same with our books, the double standard here is that your scholars don't dare to make books with only sahih narrations, because this will be armageddon for shiism.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Ameen

Re: Why didn't the 12th Imam Appoint an Infallible Representative ?
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2015, 03:29:23 PM »
For your information it is Usool e Kafi and Faroo e Kafi. There is no such thing as Sehih this or Sehih that when it comes to us.

But when it comes to you this is not Bukhari but it is Sehih Bukari. And it is not just Sehih Bukjari but it is also baad az kithab e bari meaning straight after the book of Allah.

Come on, don't play around with words. If you believe in something, by all means do believe in it but for Gods sake at least stick to it.





Ameen

Re: Why didn't the 12th Imam Appoint an Infallible Representative ?
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2015, 03:34:24 PM »
The same is when it comes to companions. You believe that all companions are pious, good and they all will go to heaven.

But when it comes to reality there is a different story with you. There are just a handful of companions that you believe in, honour and praise. The ones who are accused and have question marks against them.

But when it comes to the likes of Ammar (ra), Salman (ra), Abu Zarr (ra), Miqdad, Abdullah ibne Masood (ra) etc, not a word of praise and honour.






Ameen

Re: Why didn't the 12th Imam Appoint an Infallible Representative ?
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2015, 03:56:27 PM »
This is not about Shia or Sunni but it's about principals. If I believe that all Sahaba are pious and good then there shouldn't be pick and choose. I should honour and respect them all. Every single one of them.



Furkan

Re: Why didn't the 12th Imam Appoint an Infallible Representative ?
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2015, 05:21:49 PM »
Quote
For your information it is Usool e Kafi and Faroo e Kafi. There is no such thing as Sehih this or Sehih that when it comes to us.

But when it comes to you this is not Bukhari but it is Sehih Bukari. And it is not just Sehih Bukjari but it is also baad az kithab e bari meaning straight after the book of Allah.

Come on, don't play around with words. If you believe in something, by all means do believe in it but for Gods sake at least stick to it.

Dude yes, I know but if we assume that khoei would take only sahih hadith from usool e kafi and put them in a new book, then he can call it Sahih usool e kafi. Just a simple way of thinking will help you understand this.

Quote
The same is when it comes to companions. You believe that all companions are pious, good and they all will go to heaven.

But when it comes to reality there is a different story with you. There are just a handful of companions that you believe in, honour and praise. The ones who are accused and have question marks against them.

But when it comes to the likes of Ammar (ra), Salman (ra), Abu Zarr (ra), Miqdad, Abdullah ibne Masood (ra) etc, not a word of praise and honour.

We respect ALL sahaba INCLUDING the ones you mentioned. Dude the hanafi madhab is mostly based on what Ibn masood (ra) said, since he was appointed to Kufa. Do your research about sunni view on the sahaba you mentioned, hope that will help.

We are not the ones who believe in a handfull companions, It's you takfeeri rawafid who say that many sahaba fell in rida. Refer to shiite books ;)

Quote
This is not about Shia or Sunni but it's about principals. If I believe that all Sahaba are pious and good then there shouldn't be pick and choose. I should honour and respect them all. Every single one of them.

Alright, so do you see Abu Bakr As siddeeq, Umar al Farouq, Uthman al Ghani, mawla Ali, Aisha, Hafsa, Khaleed bin Waleed, Ibn Umar, Ibn abbas, Sad ibn Waqqas, Amr Ibn al As as pious companions who were good people and were loyal to rasululah (saw) even after his demise? A yes or no will be sufficient.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 05:24:24 PM by Furkan »
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

sword_of_sunnah

Re: Why didn't the 12th Imam Appoint an Infallible Representative ?
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2015, 05:37:48 PM »

Where is Jesus (as)  ??? Also in occultation but why??? According to you he did his job so what was the point of going in to hiding???
Is Jesus(pbuh) guiding people being in state of occultation or he isn't even aware what happened after his occultation?

Rationalist

Re: Why didn't the 12th Imam Appoint an Infallible Representative ?
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2015, 05:48:55 PM »
Brothers thank you very much for your response.
"In your own books it says",

Sorry??? Excuse me??? "in our own books"???

There is no such things as "our own books". I have said this before that that we do not hold any book 100% authentic apart from the Quran. And it is not compulsory to believe in absolutely every single thing that any scholar has to say.

will continue this.






Ok if this is the case then even the Mahdi's existence is weak since there is no mention of him explicitly in the Quran.

Ameen

Re: Why didn't the 12th Imam Appoint an Infallible Representative ?
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2015, 05:35:34 PM »

Where is Jesus (as)  ??? Also in occultation but why??? According to you he did his job so what was the point of going in to hiding???
Is Jesus(pbuh) guiding people being in state of occultation or he isn't even aware what happened after his occultation?

According to me Jesus is kept for a future purpose just like Khizar, another individual that Muslims believe is in occultation. And that purpose is to testify that Al Mahdi is khalifa tullah, hujja tullah.

He (Jesus) is guaranteed and confirmed and will guarantee and confirm to the people about Al Mahdi whom is under suspicion and doubt.

Now you do believe that Satan leads people astray, or plays a vital role in leading people astary and he can do that from Ghaib, the unknown.

But when it comes to guidance, oh that isn't possible.why isn't it possible to guide or give guidance from ghaib, from the unkown???

Give me a logical argument. What is right and what is wrong is one matter but make it logical and reasoning.

Why don't you tell me your ideology and what you think??? Or are you afraid of being caught out??? Is this why you just question and not answer and explain??? Is this why you keep your point of view hidden???

Rather than questioning ones ideology, thought, opinion and point of view all the time and over and over again, why don't you put yours forward and make the argument/discussion more interesting and worthy.


























 

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