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Why the "Madhab" of Zayd is not the fifth madhab?

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scusemyenglish

Why the "Madhab" of Zayd is not the fifth madhab?
« on: June 12, 2016, 12:20:31 AM »
Good fasting for all : )

I would want to understand the Zayd case.

Apparently Zayd was near of Abou Hanifa.

I want to know why Zayd is not considered like the fifth Madhab?

 he was not salaf salih? He was deviants?
Abou Hourayra narrated that the messenger saws said:

"“There will come to the people years
of treachery (...) the Ruwaibidhah will decide matters.”
It was said

 'Who are the Ruwaibidhah?'

The Prophet replied:

 “Vile and
ignorant men who will speak in the affairs of the people.”

Hani

Re: Why the "Madhab" of Zayd is not the fifth madhab?
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2016, 12:56:04 AM »
Because those who transmitted many of his opinions were not reliable.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Why the "Madhab" of Zayd is not the fifth madhab?
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2016, 01:00:22 AM »
Even Zaydis openly say they don't follow Zayd specifically, they follow any member of ahlulbayt who is qualified. They have differences in opinions.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

scusemyenglish

Re: Why the "Madhab" of Zayd is not the fifth madhab?
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2016, 05:02:13 AM »
And what we can say about this points?

- Ali more worthy that Omar and Abu Bakr about khalifat.
-  actions are not created by Allah
- those who made big sins his neither Muslim and neither no-muslim.

It's attributed to Zayd by no reliable people?
Abou Hourayra narrated that the messenger saws said:

"“There will come to the people years
of treachery (...) the Ruwaibidhah will decide matters.”
It was said

 'Who are the Ruwaibidhah?'

The Prophet replied:

 “Vile and
ignorant men who will speak in the affairs of the people.”

Rationalist

Re: Why the "Madhab" of Zayd is not the fifth madhab?
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2016, 09:25:26 AM »
Remember this Sunni and Shia views in the past were not crystallized the way they are today. The Sunni and Shia view in the past were opinions, and never made into binding opinions of the ummah. On the contrary, overtime they became madhabs which have a crystallized version of what they believe forms a madhab. 
Imam Zayd never said I am starting a school of thought. He instead wanted to be the Imam of everyone regardless whether you were Sunnis, Shia, Murjia, Mutazilla etc..

scusemyenglish

Re: Why the "Madhab" of Zayd is not the fifth madhab?
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2016, 07:19:41 PM »
Apparently Abou Hanifa said "the faith don't moove" even if apparently he has changed his view.

So it's not so disturbing to see Zayd erred in some issus of aquida? (if we consider that like sahih)
Abou Hourayra narrated that the messenger saws said:

"“There will come to the people years
of treachery (...) the Ruwaibidhah will decide matters.”
It was said

 'Who are the Ruwaibidhah?'

The Prophet replied:

 “Vile and
ignorant men who will speak in the affairs of the people.”

Rationalist

Re: Why the "Madhab" of Zayd is not the fifth madhab?
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2016, 07:36:33 PM »
Apparently Abou Hanifa said "the faith don't moove" even if apparently he has changed his view.
This is the reason many accused him of being a Murjia. The sad part is the 12ers take this and believe in totally denied free will which is untrue.

Quote
So it's not so disturbing to see Zayd erred in some issus of aquida? (if we consider that like sahih)
Which one? Imam Zayd did not believe this.

scusemyenglish

Re: Why the "Madhab" of Zayd is not the fifth madhab?
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2016, 08:09:06 PM »

Quote
So it's not so disturbing to see Zayd erred in some issus of aquida? (if we consider that like sahih)
Which one? Imam Zayd did not believe this.
[/quote]

No here I talk about mistake about

 -  actions are not created by Allah
- those who made big sins his neither Muslim and neither no-muslim.

I had talked about the mistake of Abou Hanifa for say "even scholar from 4 madhaib can did mistake in Aqida"

In fact I search to explain mistakes of Zayd, acording othodox muslim.
Abou Hourayra narrated that the messenger saws said:

"“There will come to the people years
of treachery (...) the Ruwaibidhah will decide matters.”
It was said

 'Who are the Ruwaibidhah?'

The Prophet replied:

 “Vile and
ignorant men who will speak in the affairs of the people.”

Rationalist

Re: Why the "Madhab" of Zayd is not the fifth madhab?
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2016, 01:43:47 AM »


 -  actions are not created by Allah
This is not a deviant belief in Ahle Sunnah.

Quote
- those who made big sins his neither Muslim and neither no-muslim.
We have Sahih ahadith which support this.

Quote
I had talked about the mistake of Abou Hanifa for say "even scholar from 4 madhaib can did mistake in Aqida"
Sure it happens.
Quote
In fact I search to explain mistakes of Zayd, acording othodox muslim.
Some of scholars said he was influenced by the Mutazilla, but this is not true.

scusemyenglish

Re: Why the "Madhab" of Zayd is not the fifth madhab?
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2016, 02:12:16 AM »
and what he says about "Throne of Allah" and "sifat"
Abou Hourayra narrated that the messenger saws said:

"“There will come to the people years
of treachery (...) the Ruwaibidhah will decide matters.”
It was said

 'Who are the Ruwaibidhah?'

The Prophet replied:

 “Vile and
ignorant men who will speak in the affairs of the people.”

Rationalist

Re: Why the "Madhab" of Zayd is not the fifth madhab?
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2016, 06:16:53 AM »
and what he says about "Throne of Allah" and "sifat"
Someone will have to refer to the tafsir attributed to him to find out what he said.

scusemyenglish

Re: Why the "Madhab" of Zayd is not the fifth madhab?
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2016, 04:56:15 PM »
and what he says about "Throne of Allah" and "sifat"
Someone will have to refer to the tafsir attributed to him to find out what he said.

I undertand this view but honestly I don't think the narration you have quoted are enough for conclude that Zayd believed in things witch are different to the creed of our 4 imams.

Because all depends on how to interpret this words and the level of those who did this interpretation.

Often we read people intepreted words of scholars for conclude the opposite original view of this same scholar! (often we see that for those who are against the fact to affirm the thone of Allah quoting without context words of Malik or of El Jawziya etc...)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 04:59:59 PM by scusemyenglish »
Abou Hourayra narrated that the messenger saws said:

"“There will come to the people years
of treachery (...) the Ruwaibidhah will decide matters.”
It was said

 'Who are the Ruwaibidhah?'

The Prophet replied:

 “Vile and
ignorant men who will speak in the affairs of the people.”

scusemyenglish

Re: Why the "Madhab" of Zayd is not the fifth madhab?
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2016, 12:25:53 AM »
For example we have many people who think that El Bukhari was ashari because he has "intepreted" the "wajh" of Allah .

I have not knowledge but I think it's probably the same case with Zayd. May be he has interpreted things and this "followers" has given a bad interpretation of his view saying " Zayd had the same view like us"

 Allahou A’lam.
Abou Hourayra narrated that the messenger saws said:

"“There will come to the people years
of treachery (...) the Ruwaibidhah will decide matters.”
It was said

 'Who are the Ruwaibidhah?'

The Prophet replied:

 “Vile and
ignorant men who will speak in the affairs of the people.”

scusemyenglish

Re: Why the "Madhab" of Zayd is not the fifth madhab?
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2016, 05:17:52 AM »
Another example for Shia the creed of Ibn Taymiya is to believe in the fact that Fatima was killed by Omar.

I have also seen movies when shia explains that "Ibn Taymiya believes in the kufr of Omar"

If ahlou sounna wasn't there. all the wold would have believed that Ibn Taymiya was nawasib or a madman.

I think it's the same proceed for Zaydite. They have stuck their creed upon Zayd who is innocent of them.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 05:22:26 AM by scusemyenglish »
Abou Hourayra narrated that the messenger saws said:

"“There will come to the people years
of treachery (...) the Ruwaibidhah will decide matters.”
It was said

 'Who are the Ruwaibidhah?'

The Prophet replied:

 “Vile and
ignorant men who will speak in the affairs of the people.”

 

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