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Issue of Takfir and Ahmadi/Qadyanis

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Rationalist

Issue of Takfir and Ahmadi/Qadyanis
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2018, 04:03:24 AM »
Since I am not doing that why should I leave?

I am debating the issue of Takfir. Or is that not allowed either?

Farid made it clear we are not going to specialize on Qadianis. So no discussion on defending Qadianis.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 10:25:39 AM by MuslimK »

Hadrami

Re: Yahya (Johnny) Seymour recycles Ghadir shubuhat
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2018, 12:20:53 PM »
Looks like you've been debating the Shia for too long. Starting to see Taqaiyya everywhere ;D
You are the same person who was using username Zulfiqar, the follower of that false prophet who died in a toilet covered in his own faeces. A liar following a liar. No need to pretend you are sunni.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Yahya (Johnny) Seymour recycles Ghadir shubuhat
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2018, 01:48:49 PM »
But the distinction between kufr and zandaqa, that has no basis from the texts of Islam.

To say the concept of zandaqa is valid because the actions of zandaqa occurred in history is a circular argument. On what basis do you say such examples of zandaqa differ from ordinary kufr?

Therefore, it is wrong to make another category of kufr and call it zandaqa, and furthermore, to start legislating a more severe punishment for zandaqa than kufr.

A Kafir is one who does not believe, among the teachings of Emaan and the Shari'a, be it even one of the nass with explicit meaning. If he keeps his disbelief secret, he is termed a munafiq. If not only he keeps it secret but also he tries to deceive Muslims by passing himself off as a Muslim, he is called a zindeeq.

A for Zindeeq being given a severe punishment, then we have the example of Ali(ra) who gave a harsh punishment to Saba'ees. And Ali(ra) is from the rightly Guided Caliphs, and Sunnah of Khulafa Rashideen is to be followed.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Yahya (Johnny) Seymour recycles Ghadir shubuhat
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2018, 06:42:04 PM »
Of course it is open to interpretation. Even orthodox Sunnis have been forced to interpret it to allow for the second coming of a Prophet (Jesus) thousands of years after the death of the Final Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم
Slice it any way you want, that is interpretation (ta'wil).
No it doesn't. Did you forget that your heretical ideas were refuted in the past on this forum but later you rejoined stating your have retracted from your wrong beliefs?

And By finality of Prophethood we understand that no one would be honored with this rank after Muhammad(saws). Isa ibn Maryam(as) who is alive - even though he will return before Qiyamah, but that doesn't negate the fact that Prophet Muhammad(saws) was the last who was honored with the rank of Prophethood, since Isa(as) was honored with this station centuries before Prophet Muhammad(saws).




Furthermore, Qadianis themselves differ on the idea that Ghulam Ahmad was a prophet. Ghulam Ahmad himself said he is not a prophet in the real sense, but figuratively:

وسُمِّيتُ نبيّا من اللّه على طريق المجاز لا على وجه الحقيقة
اور اللہ کی طرف سے مجھے حقیقی طور پر نہیں بلکہ مجازی طور  پر نبی کا نام دیا گیا ہے۔
And I have been named as a Prophet by Allah in a metaphorical sense, not in the literal sense.”
(Damimah Haqiqat-ul-Wahi pp.64-65; al-Istiftaa pp.154-155).

The point here is do they believe in the implications of a prophet for Ghulam Ahmad(la)?

Shah Wali Ullah writes in his book Al-Musawwa Sharh al-Muwatta, a commentary on al-Muwatta of Imam Malik:

 قال: ان النبي –صلى الله عليه وسلم– خاتم النبوة ولكن معنى هذا الكلام أنه لا يجوز أن يسمو بعده أحد بالنبي، وأما معنى النبوة وهو كون الإنسان مبعوثاً من الله تعالى إلى الخلق مفترض الطاعة معصوماً من الذنوب ومن البقاء، على الخطأ فيما يرى فهو موجود في الأئمة بعده ، فذلك هو الزنديق .
Whoever states that the Prophet(saw) is the seal of Prophethood, but that this term means that no one after him can be named a ‘prophet’, and that as for that meaning of prophethood which is – a human sent by Allah to the people, obedience to whom is required, protected from sins and remaining in error – that, this [meaning of] prophethood can still be found in the leaders of the Community after him; then this person is a heretic (zindiq)” (Al-Musawwa Sharh al-Muwatta, 2:110) .


Now if you consult the writings of Mulla Ali Qari, he stated that making a claim to Nubuwwah metaphorically is not kufr or even bid'ah:

(فكذلك كلّ إمام) أي من الأئمة الاثني عشر (عند هؤلاء) الرافضة (يقوم مقامه في النّبوّة والحجّة) يعني إن أرادوا بها الحقيقة وإلا فالمنزلة المجازية لا توجب الكفر ولا البدعة
"ُThus every Imam, meaning the 12 Imams of these Rafida, are established upon the maqam of Nubuwwah and Hujjah, that is, they mean in reality (literally), and not metaphorically, and (such an idea of metaphor) would not necessitate kufr or bid'a"
(Sharh ash-Shifa v.2 p.519)[/size]

Imam al Qadhi Iyaadh (rah) the author of Ash-Shifa, whose Sharh was written by Mullah Ali Qari,  he writes:

We declare that person as Kafir who considers someone along with you or after you as a Prophet, just like this we also declare him Kafir who claims that “Revelation (Wahi)” is sent to him even if he does not claim propethood, Thus all such people are “DISBELIEVERS” because they do Takdhib of Prophet (i.e. call him liar – Naudhobillah). The Prophet (Peace Be Upon hIm) has informed us that he is “KHATAM AN NABIYEEN” and “NO PROPHET WILL COME AFTER HIM” and that “HE HAS BEEN SENT TO ALL PEOPLE” The ummah is unanimous that this Kalaam is to be taken on its apparent and there is no room for any Tawil, or Takhsis and the Kufr of such people is Qat’i (i.e. Definite) Ijmai (i.e. unanimously agreed) [Ash Shifa, Page No. 237-238].
« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 06:43:13 PM by Noor-us-Sunnah »

 

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