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Authenticity of: Ali fighting for Qur'anic interpretation

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Authenticity of: Ali fighting for Qur'anic interpretation
« on: October 07, 2015, 11:58:42 PM »
Salam.
What is the grading of this hadith from "Mustadrak Al Sahihayn" ?

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[ 4621 ] ﺃﺧﺒﺮﻧﺎ ﺃﺑﻮ ﺟﻌﻔﺮ ﻣﺤﻤﺪ ﺑﻦ ﻋﻠﻲ
ﺍﻟﺸﻴﺒﺎﻧﻲ ﺑﺎﻟﻜﻮﻓﺔ ﻣﻦ ﺃﺻﻞ ﻛﺘﺎﺑﻪ ﺛﻨﺎ ﺃﺣﻤﺪ
ﺑﻦ ﺣﺎﺯﻡ ﺑﻦ ﺃﺑﻲ ﻏﺮﺯﺓ ﺛﻨﺎ ﺃﺑﻮ ﻏﺴﺎﻥ ﺛﻨﺎ
ﻋﺒﺪ ﺍﻟﺴﻼﻡ ﺑﻦ ﺣﺮﺏ ﺛﻨﺎ ﺍﻷﻋﻤﺶ ﻋﻦ
ﺇﺳﻤﺎﻋﻴﻞ ﺑﻦ ﺭﺟﺎﺀ ﻋﻦ ﺃﺑﻴﻪ ﻋﻦ ﺃﺑﻲ ﺳﻌﻴﺪ
ﺭﺿﻰ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﺗﻌﺎﻟﻰ ﻋﻨﻪ ﻗﺎﻝ ﺑﻦ ﺃﺑﻲ ﻏﺮﺯﺓ
ﻭﺣﺪﺛﻨﺎ ﻋﺒﻴﺪ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﺑﻦ ﻣﻮﺳﻰ ﺛﻨﺎ ﻓﻄﺮ ﺑﻦ
ﺧﻠﻴﻔﺔ ﻋﻦ ﺇﺳﻤﺎﻋﻴﻞ ﺑﻦ ﺭﺟﺎﺀ ﻋﻦ ﺃﺑﻴﻪ ﻋﻦ
ﺃﺑﻲ ﺳﻌﻴﺪ ﺭﺿﻰ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﺗﻌﺎﻟﻰ ﻋﻨﻪ ﻗﺎﻝ ﻛﻨﺎ
ﻣﻊ ﺭﺳﻮﻝ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﺻﻠﻰ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﻋﻠﻴﻪ ﻭﺳﻠﻢ
ﻓﺎﻧﻘﻄﻌﺖ ﻧﻌﻠﻪ ﻓﺘﺨﻠﻒ ﻋﻠﻲ ﻳﺨﺼﻔﻬﺎ
ﻓﻤﺸﻰ ﻗﻠﻴﻼ ﺛﻢ ﻗﺎﻝ ﺇﻥ ﻣﻨﻜﻢ ﻣﻦ ﻳﻘﺎﺗﻞ
ﻋﻠﻰ ﺗﺄﻭﻳﻞ ﺍﻟﻘﺮﺁﻥ ﻛﻤﺎ ﻗﺎﺗﻠﺖ ﻋﻠﻰ ﺗﻨﺰﻳﻠﻪ
ﻓﺎﺳﺘﺸﺮﻑ ﻟﻬﺎ ﺍﻟﻘﻮﻡ ﻭﻓﻴﻬﻢ ﺃﺑﻮ ﺑﻜﺮ ﻭﻋﻤﺮ
ﺭﺿﻰ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﺗﻌﺎﻟﻰ ﻋﻨﻬﻤﺎ ﻗﺎﻝ ﺃﺑﻮ ﺑﻜﺮ ﺃﻧﺎ ﻫﻮ
ﻗﺎﻝ ﻻ ﻗﺎﻝ ﻋﻤﺮ ﺃﻧﺎ ﻫﻮ ﻗﺎﻝ ﻻ ﻭﻟﻜﻦ
ﺧﺎﺻﻒ ﺍﻟﻨﻌﻞ ﻳﻌﻨﻲ ﻋﻠﻴﺎ ﻓﺄﺗﻴﻨﺎﻩ ﻓﺒﺸﺮﻧﺎﻩ
ﻓﻠﻢ ﻳﺮﻓﻊ ﺑﻪ ﺭﺃﺳﻪ ﻛﺄﻧﻪ ﻗﺪ ﻛﺎﻥ ﺳﻤﻌﻪ ﻣﻦ
ﺭﺳﻮﻝ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﺻﻠﻰ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﻋﻠﻴﻪ ﻭﺳﻠﻢ
ﻫﺬﺍ ﺣﺪﻳﺚ ﺻﺤﻴﺢ ﻋﻠﻰ ﺷﺮﻁ ﺍﻟﺸﻴﺨﻴﻦ ﻭ
ﻟﻢ ﻳﺨﺮﺟﺎﻩ
ﻋﻠﻰ ﺷﺮﻁ ﺍﻟﺒﺨﺎﺭﻱ ﻭﻣﺴﻠﻢ : ﺗﻌﻠﻴﻖ ﺍﻟﺬﻫﺒﻲ
ﻗﻲ ﺍﻟﺘﻠﺨﻴﺺ
Translation:
Abi Sa-eed narrated: “The Messenger
of Allah (pbuh) said: “Among you is
one who will fight for the
interpretation of the Qur’an just as I
fought for its revelation”. We were
very excited, and among us were
Abubakr and Umar. Abubakr asked,
“Am I the one?” and the Holy Prophet
(pbuh) answered “No”. Umar too
asked, “Is it I” and the Holy Prophet
(pbuh) replied, “No; but it is the one
who is mending the shoe”, meaning
Ali (who was mending the shoe of
the Holy Prophet). Therefore we went
to Ali to convey the good news to
him, but he did not even raise his
head, as if he had already heard it
from the Messenger of Allah (pbuh)"
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 02:19:30 AM by Hani »

Hani

Re: Authenticity of the hadith
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2015, 02:18:18 AM »
Salam,

Please never open topics with vague titles, change the title to something descriptive.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Re: Authenticity of the hadith
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2015, 11:06:10 AM »
Salam,

Please never open topics with vague titles, change the title to something descriptive.

Oh OK Sorry for that.
But any help with the hadith ?

al-kulayni

Re: Authenticity of: Ali fighting for Qur'anic interpretation
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2015, 06:25:08 PM »
Assalamu Aleykum,

I have red on some shia sites that the isnad was hasan, but we can't trust shia, let's wait for the answer of brother Farid. But even if it was sahih, we can say that Ali (ra) fought for interpretation of Quran against khawarij.

Aba AbdAllah

Re: Authenticity of: Ali fighting for Qur'anic interpretation
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2015, 12:58:03 AM »
This merit has been authentically reported. Indeed Ali ibn Abu Talib fought against khawarij which went astray by their wrong explanation of Quran.

Abdullah Efendi

Re: Authenticity of: Ali fighting for Qur'anic interpretation
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2015, 04:01:28 PM »
Bismillah.
as-Salamu Alaikum.

It was reported by Ahmad in Musnad, ibn Hibban in Sahih, Hakim in Mustadrak, ibn Asakir in Tarik Dimashk. All of them from Abu Said al-Khudri.
Dhahabi said in Talkhis: Upon conditions of Bukhari and Muslim.
Sh. Shuayb Arnawut said Chain is sound upon condition of Muslim.

But ibn Jawzi included this hadith in his book on weak narrations - Ilal al Mutanahiya (#386).

Chain contains Ismail ibn Rajah.

Ibn Jawzi said: قال الدارقطني اسماعيل ضعيف وقال ابن حبان منكر الحديث يأتي عن الثقات بما لا يشبه حديث الإثبات
'' Daraqutni said: Ismail is weak. And ibn Hibban said: Munkarul Hadith, use to narrate from truthful people stories that doesn't looks to be testified".

There is detailed discussion of this report here: http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vb/showthread.php?t=290095

Anyway there is great benefit in this report, and it is actually against rawafidh.

Prophet (sallalahu alaihi wa ala alihi wa sallam) fought mushriks that didn't accept Quran. He indeed fought for revelation.

Ali (r.a) fought Muslims that accepted Quran, but didn't make proper explanation.

Re: Authenticity of: Ali fighting for Qur'anic interpretation
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2015, 11:22:58 PM »
Bismillah.
as-Salamu Alaikum.

It was reported by Ahmad in Musnad, ibn Hibban in Sahih, Hakim in Mustadrak, ibn Asakir in Tarik Dimashk. All of them from Abu Said al-Khudri.
Dhahabi said in Talkhis: Upon conditions of Bukhari and Muslim.
Sh. Shuayb Arnawut said Chain is sound upon condition of Muslim.

But ibn Jawzi included this hadith in his book on weak narrations - Ilal al Mutanahiya (#386).

Chain contains Ismail ibn Rajah.

Ibn Jawzi said: قال الدارقطني اسماعيل ضعيف وقال ابن حبان منكر الحديث يأتي عن الثقات بما لا يشبه حديث الإثبات
'' Daraqutni said: Ismail is weak. And ibn Hibban said: Munkarul Hadith, use to narrate from truthful people stories that doesn't looks to be testified".

There is detailed discussion of this report here: http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vb/showthread.php?t=290095

Anyway there is great benefit in this report, and it is actually against rawafidh.

Prophet (sallalahu alaihi wa ala alihi wa sallam) fought mushriks that didn't accept Quran. He indeed fought for revelation.

Ali (r.a) fought Muslims that accepted Quran, but didn't make proper explanation.

Great.
Tanx a lot bro.

Mussana

Re: Authenticity of: Ali fighting for Qur'anic interpretation
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2015, 02:00:45 PM »
'Prophet (sallalahu alaihi wa ala alihi wa sallam) fought mushriks that didn't accept Quran. He indeed fought for revelation.

Ali (r.a) fought Muslims that accepted Quran, but didn't make proper explanation. "

And the Shia rawafid  fall under both categories
They don't accept Quran (the Quran in our hands ) and they certainly don't make proper explanations of the Quran.
Makes it a Sunna of both the Prophet SAW and hazrat Ali Ra to fight them

Abdullah Efendi

Re: Authenticity of: Ali fighting for Qur'anic interpretation
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2015, 02:59:15 PM »
'Prophet (sallalahu alaihi wa ala alihi wa sallam) fought mushriks that didn't accept Quran. He indeed fought for revelation.

Ali (r.a) fought Muslims that accepted Quran, but didn't make proper explanation. "

And the Shia rawafid  fall under both categories
They don't accept Quran (the Quran in our hands ) and they certainly don't make proper explanations of the Quran.
Makes it a Sunna of both the Prophet SAW and hazrat Ali Ra to fight them

Good point brother. Barakallahu fik.

 

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