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Hadith al tayr analysing some transmissions

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TAHIR

Hadith al tayr analysing some transmissions
« on: January 01, 2021, 05:05:37 PM »
Hadith Al tayr :
Analysing some transmissions:
Disclaimer: i am not well studied in Arabic language and hadith sciences, i am but a beginner and i will try my best to escape errors and embarrassment in the course of this write up, any thing benificial in this is from Allah and any error or blunder is from me only:
The problem with the rafdhi leaning Sufis is two fold ,on one hand they have to put a lot of effort in dismissing the authentically established reports and on the other they have to use all their energy to strengthen the forgered and we weak reports which portray Ali (r.a) as superior to Abu Bakr and Umar(r.a). Apparently it isn't too big a deal to prefer one companion above other ,but fundamentally one should ask what does this stem from when clear conclusive statements from Ali (r.a) himself confirm the superiority of Abu Bakr and Umar (r.a) why would somebody who claims to love Ali (r.a) reject all those statements and formulate and opposite belief?
The only explanation i can guess of is that this is percolating rafdh in them ,what is wore is that they will rip of the titles from Abu Bakr and Umar may Allah be pleased and give them to Ali (r.a) e.g they will call Ali (r.a) sidiq al akbar they will also call him farooq Al azam ,there wouldn't be any better indicative of rafdh except this.

Lately a sufi released a video analysing different transmissions of  hadith Al tayr with lot of his trickery and gimmicks he brought up some 6 chains claiming all of these were Hassan or sahih ,  a knowledgeable brother upon request  released a response vedio refuting him on each of his points, now the Sufi came up for the second round with more game play with narrations, here i am going to present all of his arguments cummilatively and react to each of his points ,the reason for doing this here is that hadith al tayr is a quit famous topic and anything written here would in sha Allah be benificial to  many people in this regard .



TAHIR

Re: Hadith al tayr analysing some transmissions
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2021, 05:06:35 PM »
Transmission ist:
The hadith from Mustadrak Al Hakim and tabrani  al awsat
حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَبِي غَسَّانَ الْفَرَائِضِيُّ ، حَدَّثَنِي أَبِي أَبُو غَسَّانَ أَحْمَدُ بْنُ عِيَاضِ بْنِ أَبِي طَيْبَةَ ، ثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ حَسَّانَ ، عَنْ سُلَيْمَانَ بْنِ بِلالٍ ، عَنْ يَحْيَى بْنِ سَعِيدٍ ، عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ ، قَالَ : كُنْتُ أَخْدُمُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، فَقَدَّمَ فَرْخًا مَشْوِيًّا ، فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ : " اللَّهُمَّ ائْتِنِي بِأَحَبِّ الْخَلْقِ إِلَيْكَ وَإِلَيَّ يَأْكُلُ مَعِي مِنْ هَذَا الْفَرْخِ " ، فَجَاءَ عَلِيٌّ ، فَدَقَّ الْبَابَ ، فَقَالَ أَنَسٌ : مَنْ هَذَا ؟ ، قَالَ : عَلِيٌّ ، فَقُلْتُ : النَّبِيُّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ عَلَى حَاجَةٍ ، فَانْصَرَفَ ، ثُمَّ تَنَحَّى رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، وَأَكَلَ ، ثُمَّ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ : " اللَّهُمَّ ائْتِنِي بِأَحَبِّ الْخَلْقِ إِلَيْكَ وَإِلَيَّ يَأْكُلُ مَعِي مِنْ هَذَا الْفَرْخِ " فَجَاءَ عَلِيٌّ ، فَدَقَّ الْبَابَ دَقًّا شَدِيدًا ، فَسَمِعَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، فَقَالَ : " يَا أَنَسُ ، مَنْ هَذَا ؟ " قُلْتُ : عَلِيٌّ ، قَالَ : " أَدْخِلْهُ " ، فَدَخَلَ ، فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ : " لَقَدْ سَأَلْتُ اللَّهَ ثَلاثًا بِأَنْ يَأْتِينِي بِأَحَبِّ الْخَلْقِ إِلَيْهِ وَإِلَيَّ يَأْكُلُ مَعِي مِنْ هَذَا الْفَرْخِ " ، فَقَالَ عَلِيٌّ : وَأَنَا يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ! لَقَدْ جِئْتُ ثَلاثًا ، كُلُّ ذَلِكَ يَرُدَّنِي أَنَسٌ ، فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ : " يَا أَنَسُ ، مَا حَمَلَكَ عَلَى مَا صَنَعْتَ ؟ " قُلْتُ : أَحْبَبْتُ أَنْ تُدْرِكَ الدَّعْوَةُ رَجُلا مِنْ قَوْمِي ، فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ : " لا يُلامُ الرَّجُلُ عَلَى حُبِّ قَوْمِهِ " . لَمْ يَرْوِ هَذَا الْحَدِيثَ عَنْ يَحْيَى بْنِ سَعِيدٍ إِلا سُلَيْمَانُ بْنُ بِلالٍ ، وَلا عَنْ سُلَيْمَانَ إِلا يَحْيَى بْنُ حَسَّانَ ، تَفَرَّدَ بِهِ : مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَبِي غَسَّانَ ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ
Muhammed bin Abi Ghassan ,from his father ( Ahmed bin Ayadh )  from yahaya bin Hassan from Sulaiman ibn Bilal from yahaya ibn saeed from Anas ibn Malik::
Summary of the narration:
" A chicken was brought to prophet (s.a.w) and he prayed OAllah , send me the most beloved of your creation to eat with me from the chicken , and Ali came , Anas (r.a) who would be serving prophet(s.a.w) attended the door and returned Ali by saying Prophet (s.a.w) is busy ,Ali (r.a) goes back and comes again and Anas (r.a) returns him like previously and Ali (r.a) comes third time till prophet (s.a.w) asks Anas to let him in and then Anas excuses himself by saying i wanted  a person from Ansar to to share the bird with prophet ....
"
The final comment of  of  imam tabrani is reproduced here for latter use:

. لَمْ يَرْوِ هَذَا الْحَدِيثَ عَنْ يَحْيَى بْنِ سَعِيدٍ إِلا سُلَيْمَانُ بْنُ بِلالٍ ، وَلا عَنْ سُلَيْمَانَ إِلا يَحْيَى بْنُ حَسَّانَ ، تَفَرَّدَ بِهِ : مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَبِي غَسَّانَ ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ
No body has transmitted this from yahaya bin saeed except Sulaiman bin Bilal and none from Sulaiman except yahaya ibn Hassan and none from yahaya ibn Hassan except the isolated transmittion of Muhammad bin Abi ghasaan from his his father

To me personally ,the text looks like a dilebrate dramatization of events ,Anas (r.a) returning Ali (r.a) back and then on the third go Prophet (s.a.w) breaking the iteration isn't explained.
The reason that Anas (r.a) gives for returning Ali (r.a) is literally tribalism, this isn't corrabrated about Anas (r.a)
We read in sahih Al Bukhari

Sahih al-Bukhari 3688
 Narrated Anas: A man asked the Prophet (ﷺ) about the Hour (i.e. Day of Judgment) saying, "When will the Hour be?" The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "What have you prepared for it?" The man said, "Nothing, except that I love Allah and His Apostle." The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "You will be with those whom you love." We had never been so glad as we were on hearing that saying of the Prophet (i.e., "You will be with those whom you love.") Therefore, I love the Prophet, Abu Bakr and `Umar, and I hope that I will be with them because of my love for them though my deeds are not similar to theirs.
If it is argued that the former inclination towards Ansar was at a young age , (although it seems to be self refuting , a child of 9/10 won't think about tribalism )
Then it would be answered that at a latter stage the ist person he would love most was Ali (r.a) , because if he knows that Ali (r.a) Is most beloved of Prophet (s.a.w) it would be no point longing  to be with Abu Bakr and Umar.
Now back to the heart of matter :
Imam Hakim after quoting this hadith says

حَدِيثٌ صَحِيحٌ عَلَى شَرْطِ الشَّيْخَيْنِ، وَلَمْ يُخَرِّجَاهُ " 
This hadith is authentic according to the standards of shaykhayn:
Dhahbi in takhlees points out :

ابن عياض لا أعرفه
Ibn Ayadh ,i don't know him
People back this up with Dhahbi's reconsideration of Muhammad ibn Ahmed ibn Ayadh


محمد بن أحمد بن عياض. روى عن أبيه أبي غسان أحمد بن عياض عن أبي طيبة المصري، عن يحيى بن حسان، فذكر حديث الطير.
وقال الحاكم: هذا على شرط البخاري ومسلم.
قلت: الكل ثقات إلا هذا، فإنها أتهمه به، ثم ظهر لي أنه صدوق-----فأما أبوه فلا أعرفه.
So dhahbi says , narrates the hadith of tayr through the chain mentioned above, and Hakim said it is upon the conditions of Bukhari and Muslim , i had said all are thiqaat in this chain except him  i charged him earlier ( with forgery of this hadith) ,then i came to know he is sadooq , as far as  his father is concerned then i dont know him.

The problem didn't go anywhere ,it just shifted from criticism of one narrator to his father from whom he is transmitting.
But as i said in the introduction the people of bidah will not leave it at that they will use whatever they can to try to strengthen all rubbish at their hands .so we are all set for a second round of back up :
It is argued that with imam Ad Dhahbi is method of declaring unknown narrators as reliable as imam ad dhahbi says :

الثقة: من وثقه كثير، ولم يضعف. ودونه: من لم يوثق ولا ضعف. فإن خرج (2) حديث هذا في "الصحيحين"، فهو موثق بذلك. وإن صحح له مثل الترمذي وابن خزيمة، فجيد أيضا. وإن صحح له كالدارقطني والحاكم، فأقل أحواله: حسن حديثه:
الموقظة في علم مصطلح(ص 78)
So Dhahbi is saying ,if there is no endorsement or criticism on a narrator and if  he his narrations have been authenticated by likes of darqutni and Hakim then he is Hassan Al hadees
Now what is interesting with this new card they bring up is that any naive reader will catch the trick here , if such was the methodology with dhahbi ,then he wouldn't require criticising the hadith in mustadrak in the ist place ,and then he wouldn't require criticising father of Muhammad ibn Abi ghasaan the next time.
Even if this was accepted as the methodology of dhahbi in elevating unknown narrators still the authentications of Mustadrak will be excluded from this rule because Dhahbi himself says about Al Hakim

 .صدوق، لكنه يصحح في مستدركه أحاديث ساقطة، ويكثر من ذلك، فما أدرى هل خفيت عليه فما هو ممن يجهل ذلك، وإن علم فهذه خيانة عظيمة، ثم هو شيعي مشهور بذلك من غير تعرض للشيخين.


❝He is a truthful scholar, but he authenticates in his Mustadrak ahādīth that are rejected, and he does this a lot. I do not know if this matter was hidden from him. If so then he is from the one who is ignorant of it. And if he knew then this is a great treachery....
The conclusion is that the problem isnt going anywhere, every trick played has a strong hammer blow awaiting.
But it didn't stop here , the guy then turned around arguing that if some 3-4 people transmit from a person he automatically becomes reliable and other cringey stuff like this
So while he has been parroting about dhahbi all the while , we also bring one quote from dhahbi in the end to put this argument to rest once for all ,but before that we remind ourselves of the comment of imam tabarani

لَمْ يَرْوِ هَذَا الْحَدِيثَ عَنْ يَحْيَى بْنِ سَعِيدٍ إِلا سُلَيْمَانُ بْنُ بِلالٍ ، وَلا عَنْ سُلَيْمَانَ إِلا يَحْيَى بْنُ حَسَّانَ ، تَفَرَّدَ بِهِ : مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَبِي غَسَّانَ ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ
No body has transmitted this from yahaya bin saeed except Sulaiman bin Bilal and none from Sulaiman except yahaya ibn Hassan and none from yahaya ibn Hassan except the isolated transmittion of Muhammad bin Abi ghasaan from his his father
Now see it comming, dhahbi says in tarikh ul islam
 (محمد بن أحمد بن عياض. أبو علاثة المصري.)) ) عن: محمد بن رمح، وحرملة. وعنه: علي بن محمد المصري، والطبراني، ومحمد بن أحمد الصفار، وحميد بن يونس، وجماعة.
وتفرد عن أبيه أبي غسان أحمد بن عياض بن أبي طيبة بما ينكر
 What he  is alone in narrating from his father that which has been considered munkar.
But it won't stell here he would build more stealthley doors plunder more books and thus waste everybody's time .

But what we should ask ourselves is ,why are there people too stubborn in authenticating these narrations the answer we have given already.

TAHIR

Re: Hadith al tayr analysing some transmissions
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2021, 12:49:02 PM »
Second chain

حدثنا أحمد قال : حدثنا سلمة بن شبيب قال : حدثنا عبد الرزاق قال : أخبرنا الأوزاعي عن يحيى بن أبي كثير .

The second chain the person brings is from muajam Al Aswat and it goes like
Ahmed from salmah ibn shabeeb from Abdur razzak from yahaya ibn Abi katheer :

The obvious thing here is that the chain is disconnected between yahaya ibn Abi katheer and Anas ibn Malik:
But as before the deviant will cover  this with a multilayer deception:

He begins by saying ,the correct position in this regard is that ,yahaya ibn Abi  kathir has listned *some* narrations he narrates from Anas while some of them he narrates he hasn't, since none listed this narration among those which were not listened from Anas himself ,by default it is to be assumed as one listened by him directly:

We say with all the flaws in the above argument ,let us grant it to you that unless it is specified by any scholar of hadith that a particular narration is not an direct transmission from Anas, let us grant it to you that it be considered a direct transmission but what will happen when a scholarly testimony flashes before your eyes pointing out that *in this hadith specifically* yahaya ibn abi katheer didn't transmit from Anas ?

وروى الطبراني في الأوسط من حديث أنس مثل حديث الباب وهو ضعيف فإنه من رواية الأوزاعي عن يحيى عن أنس وهو معلول بما تقدم2 وقد اختلف فيه على الأوزاعي أيضا ذكره الدارقطني في العلل وقال الصحيح عن الأوزاعي عن يحيى أن أنسا كان يفعل قلت ويحيى لم يسمع من أنس.


Ibn hajjar (r.a) says in talkhees al habeer vol 2 page 114
And tabrani narrates in his Aswat a similar hadith which is *weak*.......and i say yahaya didn't listen from Anas.

So the specific excuse goes out of the door .
Now back to the punching bag, what is the correct Position regarding the disconnection between yahaya ibn Abi katheer and Anas ?
For this we bring some scholarly opinions:
Abu zurrah Ar-razi says :
قال أبو زرعة يحيى بن أبي كثير بلغه عن أنس وحديثه عنه مرسل أصح وهذا وهم يعني المرفوع يعني في حديثه عن أنس أفطر عندكم الصائمون وأكل طعامكم الأبرار
That the  hadith of yahaya ibn Abi katheer from Anas are mursal is correct and the claim that this particular Hadith (أفطر عندكم الصائمو) being marfu (not disconnected in the context) is an illusion.
Ibn Abi Hatim  makes it more clear
سمعت أبي يقول يحيى بن أبي كثير لم يدرك أحدًا من أصحاب النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - إلا أنسا فإنه رآه رؤية ولم يسمع منه
So quoting his father Abu Hatim  who said , yahaya ibn Abi katheer didn't see any of the sahaba of prophet (s.a.w) except Anas ibn Malik (r.a) ,he did see him but didn't listen from him

Imam Ahmed and yahaya ibn maeen acknowledged yahaya seeing Anas but had no knowledge of if yahaya actually listened from Anas or not.
Imam Nasai after commenting upon the hadith (أفطر عندكم الصائمون) in his sunan al kubra says
قالأبو عبد الرحمن يحيى بن أبي كثير لم يسمعه من أنس
Abu Abdur Rehman(imam Hakim ) said : yahaya ibn abi katheer didn't listen from Anas(r.a)
Hafidh dhahbi has weakned a narration of yahaya ibn abi katheer through Anas ibn Malik (r.a)

حديث أبي عقيل، عن يحيى بن أبي كثير، عن أنس قال: [لما نزلت] (1) {آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْهِ (285)} [البقرة: 285] قال النبي -صلى الله عليه وسلَّم-: "وحق (2) له أن يؤمن". قال: صحيح. قلت: منقطع
"From abi Aqeel from yahaya ibn Abi katheer from Ans who said.......
Hakim said sahih , i say disconnected"
He expressedlly says the same thing in mizan
قلت: يروي عن أنس ولم يسمع منه
I say he narrates from Anas (r.a).but he didn't listen from him
Same has been said by ibn hibban and also we have mentioned above that same is known from ibn hajjar.
As far as the arguments that were brought up by the bidati in order to establish connection between yahya ibn Abi katheer and Anas ibn Malik then they are nothing but misrepresentations and distortions and at best weak.

Here we go:
His first evidence
Imam Hakim nisapuri in his book marifat uloom ul hadith page 117 brings a report through the chain of yahaya ibn Abi katheer from Anas and then says
قال أبو عبد الله قد ثبت عندنا من غير وجه رواية يحيى بن أبي كثير عن أنس بن مالك إلا أنه لم يسمع منه هذا الحديث
Now the bidati translates this as  ,
" Other transmissions of yahaya ibn abi katheer through Anas are established with us , but this particular Hadith he didn't listen from Anas "
The brother in the refutation vedio pointed out and i had also picked up the same
The actual translation would be
" This narration of yahaya ibn Abi katheer from Anas js established through other chains , although yahaya hasn't heard this hadith from Anas "
That is to say there are yahaya ibn Abi katheer through Anas transmission independent routes .
Even if for the sake of argument it is granted to him that Hakim did affirm some transmission from Anas ,then it would remain to prove that the actual hadith of tayr  was also heard by yahaya ,as ibn hajjar (r.a) has explicitly pointed out the disconnection in that .and by no means imam Hakim can claim the connection out of blues after imam Abu zurrah razi has denied it and imam Ahmed and yahaya ibn maeen have expressedlly admitted as having no knowledge of it . For the transmission to be established we ask simple one authentic chain upto yahaya ibn Abi katheer were he affirms listining from Anas that would be sufficient rest all are flimsy straws to which he is clutching.
The second piece of evidence he brings is
Imam nawawi and some other scholars have authenticated one chain containing yahaya ibn abi katheer's transmission from Anas (r.a)
Answer : here is the chain which imam Nawawi authenticated

أخبرنا أبو عبد الله الحافظ، ثنا علي بن حمشاذ العدل، أنبأ أبو بكر السدوسي، ثنا عاصم بن علي، ح وأخبرنا أبو سعد الماليني، أنبأ أبو أحمد بن عدي، ثنا محمد بن يحيى، وعبد الله بن محمد بن حميد الإمام قالا: ثنا عاصم بن علي، ثنا عكرمة بن عمار، ثنا يحيى بن أبي كثير، عن أنس
Surprisingly these people will try to escape one problem and get faced by another :
The narration here is from ikrama through yahaya ibn Abi katheer:
Now when we see the entry of ikrima ibn Ammar in tahzeeb at tahzeeb something interesting flashes before the eyes we write the summarised opinions here

أبو أحمد الحاكم : جل حديثه عن يحيى بن أبي كثير وليس بالقائم

Al Hakim al kabeer (not the author of Mustadrak) says :
His ahadith from yahaya ibn Abi katheer are forsaken and they aren't upright.

Ibn hibban
روايته عن يحيى بن أبي كثير ففيه اضطراب
In his hadith from yahaya ibn Abi katheer is iztiraab

Abu Dawood:
ثقة وفي حديثه عن يحيى بن أبي كثير اضطراب
Same as above
Same has been said by Ahmed ibn hanbal ,imam al Bukhari , imam Nasai , and others ..
In conclusion a weak chain beneath can never establish a connection between any narrators above point of weakness , because  the integrity of the part above the  point of weaknnes isn't known in the first place. So even if yahaya ibn abi katheer would have said hadasna in this narration it wouldn't have meant anything, imam Nawawi and all those who authenticated it have over looked the defect of ikrimas transmission once and yahayas disconnection , the point is there scholars are quit latter how on the earth would they be inspired as to establish connection between yahaya ibn abi katheer and Anas when the predecessors possessed no knowledge of it or denied it completely.
It is but a gameplay with hadith sciences.

Second of deception:
Even if it is assumed that yahaya ibn kathir didn't listen from Anas (r.a) , yahaya ibn Abi katheer by default tranmits from reliable transmitters only :
Abu Hatim razi says
يحيى إمام لا يحدث إلا عن ثقة
Yahaya was an imam didn't transmit except from reliable transmitters.
We say yahya ibn saeed al qattan says :
مرسلات يحيى بن أبي كثير شبه الريح
The maraseel of yahaya ibn saeed al qatan are just like wind (very weak )
Examining the shayookh of yahaya ibn Abi katheer
We find among them
1 جميع بن ثوب : he is munkar al hadith
2محمد بن الزبير he is matrook Al Hadith
3-عمر بن معتب he is weak in hadith
We can give more examples of such but this will be sufficient for now in sha Allah

At the end he goes around claiming whatsoever we are hanfi's we believe in disconnected narrations also:
Me : okay ,forsake authentically established ahadith and make a new usool every time anything opposes you
« Last Edit: January 02, 2021, 12:55:08 PM by TAHIR »

 

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