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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Hadith-Rijal => Topic started by: muslim720 on December 24, 2018, 04:07:29 AM

Title: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: muslim720 on December 24, 2018, 04:07:29 AM
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

A while back, reading a back-n-forth between a brother and a Shi'i sister, I was appalled to read the Shi'i sister claim that the Holy Prophet (saw) had given Imam Ali (ra) the right to divorce his wives (ra) after he (saw) passes away.  Giving their school the benefit of doubt, I was convinced that she misspoke and that such a thing does not exist in Shi'i books.

However, just when I thought their narrations could not get any more ridiculous, I stumbled on a profile on Facebook by the name of "Al-Rafidhi Sajjad".  Among his posts, almost all of which curse Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra), he had the following hadith:

The Prophet(صلی الله و عليه وآله) gives Amiral-Muminin(عليه السلام) the authority to divorce his wives after him:

Allamah Al-Majlisi:

Through the same previous chain (i.e. Shareef Al-Radhi from Harun Ibn Musa from Ahmad Ibn Mohammad Ibn Ammar Al-Ijli) from Isa Al-Dharir from Al-Kadhim(عليه السلام) from his father who said: the Messenger of Allah(صلی الله و عليه وآله) said in his will to Ali(عليه السلام) while the people were present around him, "By Allah O Ali, most of them will go back to disbelief, fighting each other, and there is nothing between you and witnessing that other than that I pass away.“
He(صلی الله و عليه وآله) said in his will to Ali, “whoever of my wives and companions disobeys you, she/he has disobeyed me and whoever disobeys me, has verily disobeyed Allah and I am innocent of them, so make me innocent of them” then Ali(عليه السلام) said: “Yes, I will do it” so he(صلی الله و عليه وآله) said: “O Allah, be witness!, O Ali, the people will conspire against you and antagonize you and they will decide overnight to do it and whoever does that I am innocent of him, and this verse has been revealed about them: “a party of them decide by night upon doing otherwise than what you say; and Allah writes down what they decide by night” [4:81].

And through the same chain from Al-Kadhim(عليه السلام) from his father who said: the Messenger of Allah(صلی الله و عليه وآله) said in his will to Ali(عليه السلام), “O Ali, verily so and so(i.e. Aisha) and so and so(i.e. Hafsa) will conspire against you and antagonize you after me and so and so(i.e. Aisha) will revolt against you with armed soldiers and the other one will stay back and help her with collecting supporters, they both are the in the same position in that matter, so what would you do O Ali?” He said: “O Messenger of Allah(صلی الله و عليه وآله) if they did that I will recite the Book of Allah to them and that is a proof against them in my account with them, if they accepted that would good, otherwise I will talk with them by Sunnah that it is obligatory upon them to obey me and that my right is obligatory on them, if they accepted that would be good, otherwise I will take Allah as witness and you over them and I will fight them for their deviancy.” he(صلی الله و عليه وآله) said: “and slay the camel, even if it was in fire(i.e. even if it was extremely hard).” I said: “Yes” he(صلی الله و عليه وآله) said: “O Allah be witness.” Then he(صلی الله و عليه وآله) said: “O Ali, when they did what the Qur’an has witnessed about them, then separate them from me, for verily they both will be separated from me and their father are their associates with them in what they do.” He(عليه السلام) said: „then the Prophet(صلی الله و عليه وآله) said in his will,‘O Ali be patient upon the oppression of the oppressor, for the disbelief and apostasy and hypocrisy is approaching with the first one of them(i.e. Abu Bakr) and then with the second one(i.e. Umar) and he is more evil and oppressor than the first one, then the third one(i.e. Uthman), and then supporters will gather around you and you will fight with their help with those who break their allegiance(i.e. Aisha, Talha and Zubayr in the battle of the camel) and then with the oppressors(i.e. Mu’awiya in Siffin) and then with the apostates(i.e. the Khawarij of Nahrawan) and their misguided followers and pray against them in your prayers, they are the misguided parties and their followers.‘“ (Source: Bihaar Al-Anwaar, Vol. 22 Pg. 488)

Is it just me or are the Shia masses really gullible?  The highlighted portion clearly says that the Holy Prophet (saw) allegedly knew that Aisha (ra) and Hafsa (ra) would "verily" conspire against Imam Ali (ra).  If the Prophet (saw) had that information, why did he not divorce them himself?

In the past two months, I have been studying for LSATs; have made the niyyah to go to law school, insha'Allah.  The preparation for the test has made me extra critical and observant of language.  "Verily" is a strong word which reaches the level of certainty.  Hence, our Prophet (saw) was certain that two of his wives (ra) would seek to harm Imam Ali (ra) and yet he did not divorce them; he (saw) tasked Imam Ali (ra) with the responsibility.

Wake up, ya Shia! 
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: MuslimAnswers on December 24, 2018, 05:24:16 AM
Quote
In the past two months, I have been studying for LSATs; have made the niyyah to go to law school, insha'Allah.  The preparation for the test has made me extra critical and observant of language.  "Verily" is a strong word which reaches the level of certainty.  Hence, our Prophet (saw) was certain that two of his wives (ra) would seek to harm Imam Ali (ra) and yet he did not divorce them; he (saw) tasked Imam Ali (ra) with the responsibility.


This is crucial when considering the 12er religion: Not only the Deen but even the Language and meaning of words are coined by their "Imams" and no one else; this is why it is very difficult to hold a discussion, they can claim the "Imams" held on to a 'Sunni' meaning of a word at one instance and coined a 'Shia' meaning to words in another instance. With this it is always a case of speaking past one another, since terms can always take on new meanings, be literal or metaphorical, constricted or expanded, or whatever in any and every case.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on December 26, 2018, 01:20:38 PM
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

A while back, reading a back-n-forth between a brother and a Shi'i sister, I was appalled to read the Shi'i sister claim that the Holy Prophet (saw) had given Imam Ali (ra) the right to divorce his wives (ra) after he (saw) passes away.  Giving their school the benefit of doubt, I was convinced that she misspoke and that such a thing does not exist in Shi'i books.

However, just when I thought their narrations could not get any more ridiculous, I stumbled on a profile on Facebook by the name of "Al-Rafidhi Sajjad".  Among his posts, almost all of which curse Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra), he had the following hadith:

The Prophet(صلی الله و عليه وآله) gives Amiral-Muminin(عليه السلام) the authority to divorce his wives after him:

Allamah Al-Majlisi:

Through the same previous chain (i.e. Shareef Al-Radhi from Harun Ibn Musa from Ahmad Ibn Mohammad Ibn Ammar Al-Ijli) from Isa Al-Dharir from Al-Kadhim(عليه السلام) from his father who said: the Messenger of Allah(صلی الله و عليه وآله) said in his will to Ali(عليه السلام) while the people were present around him, "By Allah O Ali, most of them will go back to disbelief, fighting each other, and there is nothing between you and witnessing that other than that I pass away.“
He(صلی الله و عليه وآله) said in his will to Ali, “whoever of my wives and companions disobeys you, she/he has disobeyed me and whoever disobeys me, has verily disobeyed Allah and I am innocent of them, so make me innocent of them” then Ali(عليه السلام) said: “Yes, I will do it” so he(صلی الله و عليه وآله) said: “O Allah, be witness!, O Ali, the people will conspire against you and antagonize you and they will decide overnight to do it and whoever does that I am innocent of him, and this verse has been revealed about them: “a party of them decide by night upon doing otherwise than what you say; and Allah writes down what they decide by night” [4:81].

And through the same chain from Al-Kadhim(عليه السلام) from his father who said: the Messenger of Allah(صلی الله و عليه وآله) said in his will to Ali(عليه السلام), “O Ali, verily so and so(i.e. Aisha) and so and so(i.e. Hafsa) will conspire against you and antagonize you after me and so and so(i.e. Aisha) will revolt against you with armed soldiers and the other one will stay back and help her with collecting supporters, they both are the in the same position in that matter, so what would you do O Ali?” He said: “O Messenger of Allah(صلی الله و عليه وآله) if they did that I will recite the Book of Allah to them and that is a proof against them in my account with them, if they accepted that would good, otherwise I will talk with them by Sunnah that it is obligatory upon them to obey me and that my right is obligatory on them, if they accepted that would be good, otherwise I will take Allah as witness and you over them and I will fight them for their deviancy.” he(صلی الله و عليه وآله) said: “and slay the camel, even if it was in fire(i.e. even if it was extremely hard).” I said: “Yes” he(صلی الله و عليه وآله) said: “O Allah be witness.” Then he(صلی الله و عليه وآله) said: “O Ali, when they did what the Qur’an has witnessed about them, then separate them from me, for verily they both will be separated from me and their father are their associates with them in what they do.” He(عليه السلام) said: „then the Prophet(صلی الله و عليه وآله) said in his will,‘O Ali be patient upon the oppression of the oppressor, for the disbelief and apostasy and hypocrisy is approaching with the first one of them(i.e. Abu Bakr) and then with the second one(i.e. Umar) and he is more evil and oppressor than the first one, then the third one(i.e. Uthman), and then supporters will gather around you and you will fight with their help with those who break their allegiance(i.e. Aisha, Talha and Zubayr in the battle of the camel) and then with the oppressors(i.e. Mu’awiya in Siffin) and then with the apostates(i.e. the Khawarij of Nahrawan) and their misguided followers and pray against them in your prayers, they are the misguided parties and their followers.‘“ (Source: Bihaar Al-Anwaar, Vol. 22 Pg. 488)

Is it just me or are the Shia masses really gullible?  The highlighted portion clearly says that the Holy Prophet (saw) allegedly knew that Aisha (ra) and Hafsa (ra) would "verily" conspire against Imam Ali (ra).  If the Prophet (saw) had that information, why did he not divorce them himself?

In the past two months, I have been studying for LSATs; have made the niyyah to go to law school, insha'Allah.  The preparation for the test has made me extra critical and observant of language.  "Verily" is a strong word which reaches the level of certainty.  Hence, our Prophet (saw) was certain that two of his wives (ra) would seek to harm Imam Ali (ra) and yet he did not divorce them; he (saw) tasked Imam Ali (ra) with the responsibility.

Wake up, ya Shia!

"Is it just me or are the Shia masses really gullible?"

Believe me IT'S JUST YOU. ONLY YOU.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: muslim720 on December 26, 2018, 01:25:13 PM
Believe me IT'S JUST YOU. ONLY YOU.

Thank you for proving me right!  Wonder how many Shi'i women were divorced by their late-husbands' cousins (who were also their sons-in-law)?!  One idiotic concept only to be believed and implemented by idiots.

Bihar ul Anwar?  I'd say Bihar ul $hit-war!
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on December 26, 2018, 03:22:02 PM
Thank you for proving me right!  Wonder how many Shi'i women were divorced by their late-husbands' cousins (who were also their sons-in-law)?!  One idiotic concept only to be believed and implemented by idiots.

Bihar ul Anwar?  I'd say Bihar ul $hit-war!

"Bihar ul Anwar?  I'd say Bihar ul $hit-war!"

You can say what ever you want to. I don't think you have a clue about how much what you call "$hit" you have in books be it yours or anyone else. That's why I'm saying don't get too carried away when it comes to books. Keep your feelings and emotions under control. 😊

"One idiotic concept only to be believed and implemented by idiots"

You're not here to refute what's in the books but to slander the Shias. That's your problem. How you react and the words you use tells that you're one emotionally and mentally messed up individual.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: muslim720 on December 26, 2018, 03:32:00 PM
You can say what ever you want to.

I am about to give you my reasons.

Quote
I don't think you have a clue about how much what you call "$hit" you have in books be it yours or anyone else.

Teaching me that another man can divorce my wife (although I'm unmarried) after I die?  That sort of garbage cannot be outmatched.

Quote
That's why I'm saying don't get too carried away when it comes to books. Keep your feelings and emotions under control. 😊

According to Shias, and I am copy-pasting this from a Shia's Facebook, we ought to insult others.

The Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “When you will find people of bid`ah (innovation) and doubt/suspicion after me, show your baraa’ (disassociation) from them and INCREASE YOUR INSULTS (sabihim) towards them, and oppose (them) and bring evidences against them so they may not become greedy in bringing fasaad (corruption) to Islam.  You must warn people against them so they do not learn their bid`ah (innovation). Allah will write for you hasanaat (good deeds) for this, and will raise you darajaat (levels) in the next life.’”

Source:
1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 2, ch. 159, pg. 375, hadeeth # 4
Grading:
1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 11, pg. 77

Other Scholar's who have said this hadeeth is SaHeeH:

1. al-FaaDil al-Kaadhimi (d. 1065), Masaalik al-Afhaam 'ila Ayaat al-Ahkaam, vol. 2, pg. 397
2. Shaheed al-Thaani (d. 966), Masaalik al-Afhaam ila TanqeeH Sharaa'i` al-Islaam, vol. 14, pg. 434
3. al-Majlisi I (al-Majlisi's father), RawDah al-Muttaqeen, vol. 9, pg. 327
4. Muhaqqiq al-Sabzawaaree (d. 1090), Kifaayah al-Ahkaam, vol. 1, pg. 437
5. `Abd al-`Ala (d. 1414), Mahdhab al-Ahkaam, vol. 16, pg. 134
6. `Abd Allaah al-Jazaa'iree (d. 1173), al-TuHfah al-Suniyyah, pg. 83
7. Yoosuf al-Bahraani, al-Hadaa'iq al-NaaDirah, vol. 18, pg. 164
8. al-Hussayn bin Aal `Asfoor al-Bahraani, Sadaad al-`Ibaad, pg. 446
9. Muhammad Mujaahid al-Tabataba'i (d. 1242), al-Munaahil, pg. 259
10. Ahmad al-Naraaqi (d. 1245), Mustanad al-Shee`ah fee Ahkaam al-Sharee`ah, vol. 14, pg. 162
11. Murtada al-Ansaari (d. 1281), Kitaab al-Makaasib, vol. 1, pg. 353
12. al-Khoei, MisbaaH al-Fuqaahah, vol. 1, pg. 354
13. Jawad al-Tabrizi, Irshaad al-Taalib 'ila al-Ta`leeq `ala al-Makaasib, vol. 1, pg. 162
14. Jawad al-Tabrizi, Asad al-Hadood, pg. 235
15. Abu Talib al-Tabrizi, al-Ta`leeqah al-Istidilaaliyyah, pg. 430
16. al-Sayfa al-Mazandaraani, Daleel Tahreer al-Waseelah, vol. 2, pg. 174
17. al-RooHaani, Fiqh al-Saadiq, vol. 14, pg. 296
18. al-RooHaani, MisbaaH al-Fuqaahah, vol. 1, pg. 379
19. Muhammad Sa`eed al-Hakeem, MisbaaH al-Minhaaj, pg. 359
20. `Alee al-Namaazee al-Shahroodi, Mustadarak Safeenah al-Bihaar, vol. 1, pg. 303 & vol. 8, pg. 202
21. Haadi al-Najafi, Mawsoo`ah aHaadeeth Ahl al-Bayt, vol. 2, pg. 25
22. al-Turayhi, Majma` al-BaHrayn, vol. 3, pg. 343
23. Muhammad Taqi al-Isfahani, Mikyaal al-Makaarim, vol. 2, pg. 259

Quote
You're not here to refute what's in the books but to slander the Shias.

Once again, it is the Prophetic model, according to 23 Shi'i sources.  See above!

Quote
That's your problem. How you react and the words you use tells that you're one emotionally and mentally messed up individual.

If emotionally reacting makes one a messed up individual then your entire theology is messed up (exactly my point) because it is rooted in emotional reactions (as shown in the hadith which encourages insulting those who oppose you).

It is quite off-putting to see Shias get offended when people carry out what they claim to be "Sunnah", whether it be cursing or their own kith and kin practicing Mutah.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: Mythbuster1 on December 26, 2018, 04:33:27 PM
"Is it just me or are the Shia masses really gullible?"

Believe me IT'S JUST YOU. ONLY YOU.

Believe me it’s not only him but the rest of the ummah of 1.5 billion.😜

Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: Sheikh on December 26, 2018, 05:11:16 PM
This thread gave me cancer 🙄
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on December 27, 2018, 03:38:42 PM
Believe me it’s not only him but the rest of the ummah of 1.5 billion.😜

Well the majority have always disbelieved or gone astray. And this isn't from me but from Allah and history. 😊 So don't be too excited and proud over numbers. 😊
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on December 27, 2018, 03:42:09 PM
This thread gave me cancer 🙄

Well you definitely need to see a doctor. 😊 This should be your priority from now on. 😊
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: muslim720 on December 27, 2018, 07:02:16 PM
I am starting to see a pattern.

Iceman loves to talk, however, when you confront him with one of their narrations, somehow he (conveniently) misses the entire post.  It is as though the entire post becomes invisible to him.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: Muhammad Tazin on December 28, 2018, 12:20:25 PM
Devil Majlisi also brought this story in his book Tarikh Payambaran(Hayat al Qulub)-

علی بن
ابی طالب علیه السّلام و فرمود: این برادر من است و وصی و وارث من است و قیامکننده است به امور شما و به امور سایر امت بعد
از من، پس اطاعت نمایید او را در هر چه شما را به آن امر میکند و نافرمانی او مکنید که به نافرمانی او هلاك میشوید. پس به
حضرت امیر المؤمنین علیه السّلام فرمود: یا علی! این زنان را که به تو سفارش مینمایم ایشان را نگاهداري بکن و خرج ایشان را
بکش مادام که اطاعت تو نمایند، و امر کن ایشان را به امر خود و نهی کن ایشان را از آنچه تو را به شک میاندازد، و اگر نافرمانی
کنند ایشان را رها کن و طلاق بگو. حضرت امیر المؤمنین علیه السّلام عرض کرد: یا رسول اللّه! ایشان زنانند و کار ایشان است
سستی در امور و ضعف رأي. حضرت فرمود: تا آنکه صلاح ایشان را در مدارا دانی مدارا کن با ایشان، و هر که تو را نافرمانی کند
از ایشان پس او را طلاق بگو طلاقی که خدا و رسول از او شاد گردند. پس زنان آن حضرت همه ساکت شدند و حرفی نگفتند
مگر عایشه که او سخن گفت و گفت: یا رسول اللّه! هرگز ما چنین نبودیم که ما را امري بفرمایی و ما غیر آن را بجا آوریم.
حضرت فرمود: نه چنین است اي حمیرا، بلکه مخالفت من نمودي بدترین مخالفتها،

Then
he pointed to Imam Ali (a.s.) and said: “This is my brother, my successor and inheritor and the caretaker
of all religious and secular affairs of the community after me. Therefore you must obey what he
commands and in no case must you disobey him or you shall be destroyed.”
Then he said to His Eminence, Ali (a.s.): “I commend you to take care of these women as long as they
remain obedient to you and continue to pay for their maintenance. And continue to order them your
obedience. And keep them away from doubtful acts. If they disobey you, you may free them from my
wifehood and you may divorce them.” Amirul Momineen (a.s.) said: “O Messenger of Allah (S), they are
women, they are lazy and weak in opinion.”
The Holy Prophet (S) said: “Be kind to them as much as possible, and if in spite of that they do not obey,
you must divorce them in the manner approved by the Almighty Allah. All the wives fell silent on hearing
this discourse. But Ayesha said: “O Messenger of Allah (S), we can never go against your commands.”
The Prophet said: “It is not so. You have disobeyed me in the worst type of disobedience.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on December 28, 2018, 07:44:49 PM
I am starting to see a pattern.

Iceman loves to talk, however, when you confront him with one of their narrations, somehow he (conveniently) misses the entire post.  It is as though the entire post becomes invisible to him.

No it doesn't. Do you believe everything and I mean every single thing in sehih sitta? We also don't believe and it's not compulsory on us to believe everything and I mean every single thing in kutub e Arbaa. 😊 Set your standards by getting rid of your double standards 😊
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: muslim720 on December 28, 2018, 08:00:57 PM
No it doesn't. Do you believe everything and I mean every single thing in sehih sitta? We also don't believe and it's not compulsory on us to believe everything and I mean every single thing in kutub e Arbaa. 😊 Set your standards by getting rid of your double standards 😊

I forgot you are the same guy who vociferously argues that we need "infallible" Imams (ra) after the Prophet (saw) but when we showed you authentic reports from your Imams (ra) declaring kufr upon those who refuse to pay Zakah, you changed goal posts.  Then we showed your "kufr" for disobeying your own "infallibles" (ra) from your own books.  You evaded them too, lol.

There are these convenient stores attached to gas stations in the US called "On the Run"!  I am sure they are franchise owned; in case you need business ideas because the principle of being "On the Run" sits very well with you and your theology, lol.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on December 28, 2018, 09:22:46 PM
I forgot you are the same guy who vociferously argues that we need "infallible" Imams (ra) after the Prophet (saw) but when we showed you authentic reports from your Imams (ra) declaring kufr upon those who refuse to pay Zakah, you changed goal posts.  Then we showed your "kufr" for disobeying your own "infallibles" (ra) from your own books.  You evaded them too, lol.

There are these convenient stores attached to gas stations in the US called "On the Run"!  I am sure they are franchise owned; in case you need business ideas because the principle of being "On the Run" sits very well with you and your theology, lol.

Your thinking based on assumptions, gossip and rumours doesn't surprise or amaze me. Neither does your stories and tales which you call experience.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on December 28, 2018, 09:56:29 PM
I forgot you are the same guy who vociferously argues that we need "infallible" Imams (ra) after the Prophet (saw) but when we showed you authentic reports from your Imams (ra) declaring kufr upon those who refuse to pay Zakah, you changed goal posts.  Then we showed your "kufr" for disobeying your own "infallibles" (ra) from your own books.  You evaded them too, lol.

There are these convenient stores attached to gas stations in the US called "On the Run"!  I am sure they are franchise owned; in case you need business ideas because the principle of being "On the Run" sits very well with you and your theology, lol.

Refuse to pay Zakah makes you a Kafir, throws you out of the fold of Islam, you couldn’t prove that from the Qur'an. You don't PAY Zakah infact you GIVE Zakah. Is it obligatory to hand over the Zakah money to the government? And of you don't does that make you WAJIB UL QATAL? You couldn’t prove this from the Qur'an either. Why did the Prophet s.a.w prohibit Mu'tah, what was the reason and purpose first it to be banned?  You couldn’t provide any explanation for this. Ring any bells?
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: muslim720 on December 30, 2018, 06:14:22 AM
Refuse to pay Zakah makes you a Kafir, throws you out of the fold of Islam, you couldn’t prove that from the Qur'an.

You take those who believed in tahreef to be your champion scholars so this is your "auqaat" when you ask for proof from the Qur'an.  However, I did better; I proved it via narrations attributed to Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) [all from your own books] who is on par with the Qur'an (as per your assessment of Hadith Thaqalayn) that refusal to pay Zakah is kufr.  It is not my fault that you are choosing to disobey your own sixth "infallible" Imam (ra).

Quote
Why did the Prophet s.a.w prohibit Mu'tah, what was the reason and purpose first it to be banned?  You couldn’t provide any explanation for this.

The Prophet (saw) prohibited Mu'tah for the same reason why your scholars won't give their daughters in Mu'tah.  In fact, he (saw) also banned Mu'tah because Mu'tah marriages saw a rise in the birth of many of your scholars and ancestors.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on December 31, 2018, 04:41:03 PM
You take those who believed in tahreef to be your champion scholars so this is your "auqaat" when you ask for proof from the Qur'an.  However, I did better; I proved it via narrations attributed to Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) [all from your own books] who is on par with the Qur'an (as per your assessment of Hadith Thaqalayn) that refusal to pay Zakah is kufr.  It is not my fault that you are choosing to disobey your own sixth "infallible" Imam (ra).

The Prophet (saw) prohibited Mu'tah for the same reason why your scholars won't give their daughters in Mu'tah.  In fact, he (saw) also banned Mu'tah because Mu'tah marriages saw a rise in the birth of many of your scholars and ancestors.

"You take those who believed in tahreef to be your champion scholars"

I don't know what you're talking about but I wish you'd stick to the subject and what is being discussed.

"However, I did better; I proved it via narrations attributed to Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (ra) [all from your own books]"

And I will answer to the above with your own reply,

"Exactly why we ask you to renounce your books!  What has been (falsely) attributed to your Imams (ra) contradict each other"

Go on, have a laugh over it.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: muslim720 on December 31, 2018, 04:45:38 PM
I don't know what you're talking about but I wish you'd stick to the subject and what is being discussed.

You become very unaware and extremely quiet when your own scholars, books and beliefs come under scrutiny.  No need to play dumb.

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And I will answer to the above with your own reply,

In other words, you have an answer to go over your own sixth "infallible" Imam's (ra) head, lol.

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Go on, have a laugh over it.

I pity you more than I laugh at you.  If you only knew!
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on January 01, 2019, 07:42:11 PM
You become very unaware and extremely quiet when your own scholars, books and beliefs come under scrutiny.  No need to play dumb.

In other words, you have an answer to go over your own sixth "infallible" Imam's (ra) head, lol.

I pity you more than I laugh at you.  If you only knew!

"You become very unaware and extremely quiet when your own scholars, books and beliefs come under scrutiny"

No I don't. This is where you are wrong. I don't accept anything and everything nor do I go as you, and that is to accept what suits you and try and justify that and undermine the other.

"No need to play dumb" I don't play dumb. I play honest and fair. You play to your advantage and desire. That's the difference.

"In other words, you have an answer to go over your own sixth "infallible" Imam's (ra) head, lol"

Nope. I don't take things at face value or according to my desire and need, as you. For me Qur'an is the scale and measuring device. Can you prove and back it from the Qur'an? Or I compare things with the Qur'an and see if it goes with it or contradicts it.

"I pity you more than I laugh at you.  If you only knew!"

Believe me I KNOW. Your belief and faith depends and evolves around defending and protecting these handful of desired personalities.

It doesn't matter how hard you try you will never be able to wash away their actions and what they said and did.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: muslim720 on January 01, 2019, 11:44:14 PM
I don't accept anything and everything nor do I go as you, and that is to accept what suits you and try and justify that and undermine the other.

Exactly!  You refuse to obey your own Imams (ra) which is tantamount to kufr in your theology.

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Nope. I don't take things at face value or according to my desire and need, as you.

Funny that you say that when you are a Shi'i while refusing to obey your own Imams (ra), lol.

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For me Qur'an is the scale and measuring device. Can you prove and back it from the Qur'an? Or I compare things with the Qur'an and see if it goes with it or contradicts it.

I proved from Qur'an, Sunnah and as per the words of your Imams (ra) that Zakah is obligatory and violating it is Kufr.  I also proved that you are kafir, according to your madhhab, for disobeying the Imams (ra).  Go and read all the narrations in the other discussion topic declaring your kufr, lol!

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Believe me I KNOW. Your belief and faith depends and evolves around defending and protecting these handful of desired personalities.

I don't have a strict number of 12 along with concocted attributes falsely attributed to them.

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It doesn't matter how hard you try you will never be able to wash away their actions and what they said and did.

Are you talking about your helplessness when you see that your Imams (ra) did not reclaim Fadak, that they lost at every corner, that they had to hand the Caliphate over, that they were subdued at every step of the way, and more?
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: Hani on January 02, 2019, 06:37:51 AM
Well the majority have always disbelieved or gone astray. And this isn't from me but from Allah and history. 😊 So don't be too excited and proud over numbers. 😊

There's more Shia than Salafis, so now you're the majority acc to Salafis.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on January 02, 2019, 12:31:56 PM
There's more Shia than Salafis, so now you're the majority acc to Salafis.

Oh, hello. It's nice of you to show up. But for what, just to rant and rave at me. Is that it.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 02, 2019, 12:50:29 PM
Yea a very good point where even iceman is dumbfounded and answers by saying......”you are ranting and raving at me”

Typical.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on January 02, 2019, 12:52:32 PM
Exactly!  You refuse to obey your own Imams (ra) which is tantamount to kufr in your theology.

Funny that you say that when you are a Shi'i while refusing to obey your own Imams (ra), lol.

I proved from Qur'an, Sunnah and as per the words of your Imams (ra) that Zakah is obligatory and violating it is Kufr.  I also proved that you are kafir, according to your madhhab, for disobeying the Imams (ra).  Go and read all the narrations in the other discussion topic declaring your kufr, lol!

I don't have a strict number of 12 along with concocted attributes falsely attributed to them.

Are you talking about your helplessness when you see that your Imams (ra) did not reclaim Fadak, that they lost at every corner, that they had to hand the Caliphate over, that they were subdued at every step of the way, and more?

"Exactly!  You refuse to obey your own Imams (ra) which is tantamount to kufr in your theology"

When we obey and follow are Imams you want us to prove from the Qur'an. Nothing else is accepted or considered. When we ask you to prove from the Qur'an then you want us to accept and obey the Imams 😊 Do you ever stick to something? Of course not. Because you're the so called Sunnis. And that is exactly why you're Sunnis, because you don't stick to anything.

YOU change goal posts when and where it suits you. YOU change principals when and where it suits you. YOU start hopping and jumping around. Let me give you an example to shut and finish it. Here it is.

You believe in Caliphate and keep believing in it. Don't go weak and wobbly at the knees. Lets stick to Khulafaa e Rashedoon so it doesn't get too painful for you. Khulafaa e Rashedoon are 4 if not five. And the 4 are Abu Bakr, Umar, Usman and Ali if you don't consider Hassan as the  5th. Some Sunnis do. All and everyone who opposed the Khulafa e Rashedoon should be considered outlaws and outcasts BY YOU. And there are people who just didn't oppose your 4th rightly guided Caliph but turned against him to the state of bloodshed.

What keeps you from the Shia is your so called experience. What keeps me from the Sunnis of your kind is the techniques and tactics based on DOUBLE STANDARDS, TWISTING AND TURNING, HYPOCRITICAL ELEMENT, BEING TOO FACED. I will post a clip of exactly what a Sunni Wahabi or which ever Sunni you want to call him...actually I'll post the clip and you can hear it for yourself.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on January 02, 2019, 01:02:15 PM
Yea a very good point where even iceman is dumbfounded and answers by saying......”you are ranting and raving at me”

Typical.

Because he's either too blind or absolutely careless of the amount of abuse by name calling that's gone on along with everything else. He comes on, has a one sided rant then off he goes.

But forget about the insults and abuse because I didn't report anything. Does the guy have the courage to come on and instead of a rant on a few words and then disappear, can he show me any indication what so ever from the Qur'an that if you REFUSE TO PAY ZAKAH TO THE RULER OF THE TIME THEN YOU HAVE BECOME AN APOSTATE. YOU ARE ELIGIBLE FOR THE DEATH PENALTY.

I mean these guys yapp on left, right and centre "can you prove this from the Qur'an, oh can you prove that from the Qur'an, but can you prove it from the Qur'an, can you show us from the Qur'an" but they can't talk the talk or walk the walk when put to the spot.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 02, 2019, 01:29:25 PM
Because he's either too blind or absolutely careless of the amount of abuse by name calling that's gone on along with everything else. He comes on, has a one sided rant then off he goes.

But forget about the insults and abuse because I didn't report anything. Does the guy have the courage to come on and instead of a rant on a few words and then disappear, can he show me any indication what so ever from the Qur'an that if you REFUSE TO PAY ZAKAH TO THE RULER OF THE TIME THEN YOU HAVE BECOME AN APOSTATE. YOU ARE ELIGIBLE FOR THE DEATH PENALTY.

I mean these guys yapp on left, right and centre "can you prove this from the Qur'an, oh can you prove that from the Qur'an, but can you prove it from the Qur'an, can you show us from the Qur'an" but they can't talk the talk or walk the walk when put to the spot.

Oh shut up whining for the love of god.......honestly all you do is throw in tantrums, I mean bro hani posted a very good point an answer to your statement and all you can do is pick on him and what you think of him instead of replying back in the same intellectual manner.

Do you even know what rant/rave means? The brother posted an answer and you call it rant and rave?

Honestly.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: muslim720 on January 02, 2019, 01:30:31 PM
Oh, hello. It's nice of you to show up. But for what, just to rant and rave at me. Is that it.

Brother Hani cornered you so well because he asserted that according to Salafis, you are in majority (compared to them) so according to your ridiculous precedence, you are misguided. 

The fact that you could not handle his argument shows how misguided you are, thereby proving his point.

Another scenario could have been for you to say that Sunnis are still in majority which would force you (rightfully so) to bundle us all as one group.  That also would have been problematic for you because your scholars love to classify us as different "sects" when in reality, we are all under Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah.

So brother Hani's statement put you between a rock and a hard place and like the rabbit you are, you fainted.

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When we obey and follow are Imams you want us to prove from the Qur'an.

This is what your theology says:
Imam, Ja’far b. Muhammad as-Sadiq (as) said, "Indeed we do not classify a person as a true believer until he follows all of our teachings..." (al-Kafi, vol. 2, pg. 78, sec. al-Wara’, no. 13)

In other words, unwavering obedience.  If you do not follow all the teachings of your Imams (ra), including the Imam's (ra) statement that anyone who refuses to pay Zakah is a kafir, then you are not a true believer.

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When we ask you to prove from the Qur'an then you want us to accept and obey the Imams

We can play that game but then you would have to substantiate Imamah from the Qur'an.  Over 1400 years and you have failed so we will cut you some slack.  However, we can play by those rules at which point you will prove yourself to be a liar, someone who fabricates beliefs that are falsely attributed to the Qur'an.

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Because you're the so called Sunnis. And that is exactly why you're Sunnis, because you don't stick to anything.

We can always talk about your "sticking" skills; how your spiritual forefathers stuck by Imam Ali, Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain (peace be upon them all).

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YOU change goal posts when and where it suits you. YOU change principals when and where it suits you. YOU start hopping and jumping around.

Classic example of a little girl having a breakdown.

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Lets stick to Khulafaa e Rashedoon so it doesn't get too painful for you.

That right there is a classic "changing of goal post" example.  We were talking about Zakah and how to classify those who refuse to pay it, as per the words of your own Imams (ra).  Instead, you want to run to Khulafa-e-Rashidun.

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And the 4 are Abu Bakr, Umar, Usman and Ali if you don't consider Hassan as the  5th. Some Sunnis do.

I do too; I include Imam Hassan (ra) among the Rightly-Guided Caliphs.

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All and everyone who opposed the Khulafa e Rashedoon should be considered outlaws and outcasts BY YOU. And there are people who just didn't oppose your 4th rightly guided Caliph but turned against him to the state of bloodshed.

No one turned against Imam Ali (ra), certainly not Muawiya.  Acting on a Qur'anic injunction, Muawiya demanded qisas for Uthman's (ra) murder.  Also, it was Imam Ali (ra) who brought an army to fight Muawiya, not the other way around.

If that does not sit well with you then you should blame your Imams (ra) because Imam Ali (ra) made peace with Muawiya and Imam Hassan (ra) entrusted him with the affairs of the Ummah and gave Muawiya his own "Divinely Ordained Right" of leadership.

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What keeps me from the Sunnis of your kind is the techniques and tactics based on DOUBLE STANDARDS, TWISTING AND TURNING, HYPOCRITICAL ELEMENT, BEING TOO FACED.

I know the contradictory actions of your "infallible" Imams (ra) do not sit well with your beliefs but you cannot change history.  Their actions darkened your faces and they will torment you till the Day of Judgment.

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I will post a clip of exactly what a Sunni Wahabi or which ever Sunni you want to call him...actually I'll post the clip and you can hear it for yourself.

This is coming from the piece of $hit who dismisses my experiences, overlooks authentic Shi'i narrations and disregards all the clips in which Shi'i scholars and speakers are spewing kufr. 

The clips we share are misrepresentations or manipulated but the one you will share is undeniable proof and hujjah upon us.  Right, you piece of crap!
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on January 03, 2019, 03:11:42 PM
Oh shut up whining for the love of god.......honestly all you do is throw in tantrums, I mean bro hani posted a very good point an answer to your statement and all you can do is pick on him and what you think of him instead of replying back in the same intellectual manner.

Do you even know what rant/rave means? The brother posted an answer and you call it rant and rave?

Honestly.

"Oh shut up whining for the love of god......."

She up? What, really. You're going to tell me that, with the amount of nonsense and garbage that comes out of you in the shape and form of sarcasm and insults.

"honestly all you do is throw in tantrums"

I'm the ICE MAN, not MUSLIM 720 😀 And look in the mirror so you know who also throws tantrums. 😊

"I mean bro hani posted a very good point"

It is going to be a VERY GOOD POINT according to you. It's OBVIOUS 😊 Why wouldn't it be.

"an answer to your statement"

It's not an ANSWER to my statement but a RESPONSE based on the anti Shia sentiment. My statement is in general and that's what it was based on. His response is personal and specific. That's the difference.

"all you can do is pick on him"

Pick on him? 😀😀😀😀😀 That's funny.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on January 03, 2019, 03:57:14 PM
My statement was based on this,

وَإِنْ تُطِعْ أَكْثَرَ مَنْ فِي الأرْضِ يُضِلُّوكَ عَنْ سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ إِنْ يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلا الظَّنَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلا يَخْرُصُونَ

"And if you obey the majority who are on earth, they will lead you far astray from the path of Allah. They follow nothing but conjectures and they are nothing but liars." (6:116)

What was Hani's based on? Either he can answer or you (mythbuster, muslim720). Don't ARGUE but DISCUSS. All you seem to do is ARGUE and look for ARGUMENTS. Is that all you have learned and know 😊
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: muslim720 on January 03, 2019, 04:06:19 PM
My statement was based on this,

وَإِنْ تُطِعْ أَكْثَرَ مَنْ فِي الأرْضِ يُضِلُّوكَ عَنْ سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ إِنْ يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلا الظَّنَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلا يَخْرُصُونَ

"And if you obey the majority who are on earth, they will lead you far astray from the path of Allah. They follow nothing but conjectures and they are nothing but liars." (6:116)

Truly your scholars have very low opinion of you to make fools out of you so boldly and unapologetically. 

Without even taking the context of the verse into account, it says "majority who are on earth", not majority in Islam.  On the other hand, the Prophet (saw) encouraged communal relations between Muslims and Imam Ali (ra), in Nahjul Balagha, urged people to stay with the main body of Muslims.

However, as per your assessment of the verse to avoid "majority who are on earth", you should oppose Ithna Asharis because they form the majority of Shia Islam.  You should join hands with the Zaidis or Ismailis.  Or better yet, isolate yourself, much like your hidden one, because there is no smaller group than one person, if you can call it a group.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on January 03, 2019, 04:38:27 PM
Truly your scholars have very low opinion of you to make fools out of you so boldly and unapologetically. 

Without even taking the context of the verse into account, it says "majority who are on earth", not majority in Islam.  On the other hand, the Prophet (saw) encouraged communal relations between Muslims and Imam Ali (ra), in Nahjul Balagha, urged people to stay with the main body of Muslims.

However, as per your assessment of the verse to avoid "majority who are on earth", you should oppose Ithna Asharis because they form the majority of Shia Islam.  You should join hands with the Zaidis or Ismailis.  Or better yet, isolate yourself, much like your hidden one, because there is no smaller group than one person, if you can call it a group.

☺ Here we go again. I can see the hatred and bitterness pouring out as usual. Always ready and prepared to argue and fight but not to discuss and debate. Sarcasm and insults but nothing constructive and positive. So what do you think mythbuster, who do you teally think is being picked on and who's actually coming out with tantrums. Be honest with yourself. I guess you won't 😊
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on January 03, 2019, 04:42:44 PM
Truly your scholars have very low opinion of you to make fools out of you so boldly and unapologetically. 

Without even taking the context of the verse into account, it says "majority who are on earth", not majority in Islam.  On the other hand, the Prophet (saw) encouraged communal relations between Muslims and Imam Ali (ra), in Nahjul Balagha, urged people to stay with the main body of Muslims.

However, as per your assessment of the verse to avoid "majority who are on earth", you should oppose Ithna Asharis because they form the majority of Shia Islam.  You should join hands with the Zaidis or Ismailis.  Or better yet, isolate yourself, much like your hidden one, because there is no smaller group than one person, if you can call it a group.

عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: يقول الله تعالى: يا آدم، فيقول: لبيك وسعديك، والخير في يديك، فيقول: أخرج بعث النار، قال: وما بعث النار؟ قال: من كل ألف تسعمائة وتسعة وتسعين

The Messenger Muhammad (SAW) said: "Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection), 'O Aadam.' Aadam (AS) will reply, 'Here I am, with full submission and all good is in your hand.' Allah will say, 'Bring out the people of the Fire.' Aadam will say, 'O Allah! How many are the people of the Fire?' Allah will reply, 'From every one thousand, take out nine hundred and ninety-nine.'"

(Saheeh al-Bukhaari, Book: Stories of the Prophets, chapter 7 hadeeth no.3348)

"Or better yet, isolate yourself, much like your hidden one, because there is no smaller group than one person, if you can call it a group"

And here is my answer to your above statement. In fact here is Allah's answer just to silence you here and on this one.


كَمْ مِنْ فِئَةٍ قَلِيلَةٍ غَلَبَتْ فِئَةً كَثِيرَةً بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ مَعَ الصَّابِرِينَ

"How often has a small group overpowered a mightier host with the permission of Allah?" And Allah is with as-Saabireen (those who are firm and uncompromising)." (2:249)

The reference is from Sunni books and sites. NOT SHIA. So don't twist yourself over it.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: muslim720 on January 03, 2019, 06:37:38 PM
Here we go again. I can see the hatred and bitterness pouring out as usual. Always ready and prepared to argue and fight but not to discuss and debate. Sarcasm and insults but nothing constructive and positive. So what do you think mythbuster, who do you teally think is being picked on and who's actually coming out with tantrums. Be honest with yourself. I guess you won't 😊

You sound like a widowed woman stuck in loop (replay).

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عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: يقول الله تعالى: يا آدم، فيقول: لبيك وسعديك، والخير في يديك، فيقول: أخرج بعث النار، قال: وما بعث النار؟ قال: من كل ألف تسعمائة وتسعة وتسعين

The Messenger Muhammad (SAW) said: "Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection), 'O Aadam.' Aadam (AS) will reply, 'Here I am, with full submission and all good is in your hand.' Allah will say, 'Bring out the people of the Fire.' Aadam will say, 'O Allah! How many are the people of the Fire?' Allah will reply, 'From every one thousand, take out nine hundred and ninety-nine.'"

(Saheeh al-Bukhaari, Book: Stories of the Prophets, chapter 7 hadeeth no.3348)

You just proved me right; your scholars take you as idiots.  You take their manipulations and run with it like it is revelation.  All you had to do was Google the narration.  Here it is in its entirety and now tell me how it substantiates your point.

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
The Prophet said, "Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection), 'O Adam.' Adam will reply, 'Labbaik wa Sa'daik', and all the good is in Your Hand.' Allah will say: 'Bring out the people of the fire.'  Adam will say: 'O Allah! How many are the people of the Fire?'  Allah will reply: 'From every one thousand, take out nine-hundred-and ninety-nine.'  At that time children will become hoary headed, every pregnant female will have a miscarriage, and one will see mankind as drunken, yet they will not be drunken, but dreadful will be the Wrath of Allah."  The companions of the Prophet asked, "O Allah's Apostle! Who is that (excepted) one?"  He said, "Rejoice with glad tidings; one person will be from you and one-thousand will be from Gog and Magog."

The Prophet further said, "By Him in Whose Hands my life is, hope that you will be one-fourth of the people of Paradise."  We shouted, "Allahu Akbar!"  He added, "I hope that you will be one-third of the people of Paradise."  We shouted, "Allahu Akbar!"  He said, "I hope that you will be half of the people of Paradise."  We shouted, "Allahu Akbar!"  He further said, "You (Muslims) (compared with non Muslims) are like a black hair in the skin of a white ox or like a white hair in the skin of a black ox (i.e. your number is very small as compared with theirs)."

From this hadith, without bringing explanations of it, we can see that not only the saved one person (per thousand) AND at least half of Paradise will be the Sahaba (ra) and Muslims.  Hence, your own proof blows your ill-informed claim - that majority on earth are misguided somehow alludes to Muslims - out of the water.

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"How often has a small group overpowered a mightier host with the permission of Allah?" And Allah is with as-Saabireen (those who are firm and uncompromising)." (2:249)

In the case of your "infallibles" (ra), as per your beliefs, they were a small group that was always overpowered.  Therefore, either Allah (swt) prefers a mightier host against your "infallibles" (ra) or you have it all upside down.  I bet on the latter.

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The reference is from Sunni books and sites. NOT SHIA. So don't twist yourself over it.

We can see how you are trying to wriggle out of this, lol:

Imam, Ja’far b. Muhammad as-Sadiq (as) said, "Indeed we do not classify a person as a true believer until he follows all of our teachings..." (al-Kafi, vol. 2, pg. 78, sec. al-Wara’, no. 13)
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on January 05, 2019, 10:46:26 PM
You sound like a widowed woman stuck in loop (replay).

You just proved me right; your scholars take you as idiots.  You take their manipulations and run with it like it is revelation.  All you had to do was Google the narration.  Here it is in its entirety and now tell me how it substantiates your point.

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
The Prophet said, "Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection), 'O Adam.' Adam will reply, 'Labbaik wa Sa'daik', and all the good is in Your Hand.' Allah will say: 'Bring out the people of the fire.'  Adam will say: 'O Allah! How many are the people of the Fire?'  Allah will reply: 'From every one thousand, take out nine-hundred-and ninety-nine.'  At that time children will become hoary headed, every pregnant female will have a miscarriage, and one will see mankind as drunken, yet they will not be drunken, but dreadful will be the Wrath of Allah."  The companions of the Prophet asked, "O Allah's Apostle! Who is that (excepted) one?"  He said, "Rejoice with glad tidings; one person will be from you and one-thousand will be from Gog and Magog."

The Prophet further said, "By Him in Whose Hands my life is, hope that you will be one-fourth of the people of Paradise."  We shouted, "Allahu Akbar!"  He added, "I hope that you will be one-third of the people of Paradise."  We shouted, "Allahu Akbar!"  He said, "I hope that you will be half of the people of Paradise."  We shouted, "Allahu Akbar!"  He further said, "You (Muslims) (compared with non Muslims) are like a black hair in the skin of a white ox or like a white hair in the skin of a black ox (i.e. your number is very small as compared with theirs)."

From this hadith, without bringing explanations of it, we can see that not only the saved one person (per thousand) AND at least half of Paradise will be the Sahaba (ra) and Muslims.  Hence, your own proof blows your ill-informed claim - that majority on earth are misguided somehow alludes to Muslims - out of the water.

In the case of your "infallibles" (ra), as per your beliefs, they were a small group that was always overpowered.  Therefore, either Allah (swt) prefers a mightier host against your "infallibles" (ra) or you have it all upside down.  I bet on the latter.

We can see how you are trying to wriggle out of this, lol:

Imam, Ja’far b. Muhammad as-Sadiq (as) said, "Indeed we do not classify a person as a true believer until he follows all of our teachings..." (al-Kafi, vol. 2, pg. 78, sec. al-Wara’, no. 13)

"How often has a small group overpowered a mightier host with the permission of Allah?" And Allah is with as-Saabireen (those who are firm and uncompromising)." (2:249)

You didn't respond to the above vetse. Obviously you couldn’t. Because it smashed your theory of mighty hosts. Instead you came with the tantrum.

"In the case of your "infallibles" (ra), as per your beliefs, they were a small group that was always overpowered"

And the answer to the above is again,

"How often has a small group overpowered a mightier host with the permission of Allah?" And Allah is with as-Saabireen (those who are firm and uncompromising)." (2:249)

Yes, let it out boy, let it out.

"Therefore, either Allah (swt) prefers a mightier host against your "infallibles" (ra) or you have it all upside down.  I bet on the latter."

You don't need to bet on it. Just prove it from the Qur'an. Or back your theories from the Qur'an. So far you've given me insults and tantrums. Nothing from the Qur'an.

"Imam, Ja’far b. Muhammad as-Sadiq (as) said, "Indeed we do not classify a person as a true believer until he follows all of our teachings..." (al-Kafi, vol. 2, pg. 78, sec. al-Wara’, no. 13)"

Prove to me from the Qur'an that if you refuse to pay Zakah to the government or refuse to hand over the Zakah money to them then you are Wajib Ul Qatal. You are liable for the death penalty.

Or accept the fact that it's not necessary that everything important and serious as such has to be in and from the Qur'an. Stop humming and start answering.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: muslim720 on January 06, 2019, 07:33:40 AM
You didn't respond to the above vetse. Obviously you couldn’t. Because it smashed your theory of mighty hosts. Instead you came with the tantrum.

In your Shi'i narrative, show me one time your smaller army defeated a mightier army.  Go on!

If anything, you lament over Imam Hussain (ra) and his 72 companions being overpowered by Yazeed's men.

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Yes, let it out boy, let it out.

No, little girl, you tell us of a time when your folks were able to overpower a mightier force.

Quote
You don't need to bet on it. Just prove it from the Qur'an. Or back your theories from the Qur'an. So far you've given me insults and tantrums. Nothing from the Qur'an.

Are you denying that your "infallibles" (ra) were overpowered, censored, tortured, poisoned and killed?  This is what they preach in your mosques so the verse can never be applied to you or your "infallibles" (ra) because they never overpowered a mightier opposing force.

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Prove to me from the Qur'an that if you refuse to pay Zakah to the government or refuse to hand over the Zakah money to them then you are Wajib Ul Qatal. You are liable for the death penalty.

So this is how you respond to your own hadith proving your "kufr", lol.

Imam, Ja’far b. Muhammad as-Sadiq (as) said, "Indeed we do not classify a person as a true believer until he follows all of our teachings..." (al-Kafi, vol. 2, pg. 78, sec. al-Wara’, no. 13)

Quote
Or accept the fact that it's not necessary that everything important and serious as such has to be in and from the Qur'an. Stop humming and start answering.

Your own "infallible" Imams (ra) deemed those who refuse to give Zakah to be kafirs.  You are opposing the Qur'an and your "infallibles" (ra).  So much for your adherence to Thaqalayn, lol.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: MuslimK on January 06, 2019, 11:10:25 AM
@Iceman do you believe in this disgusting twelver Shia belief that Ali divorced the wife of the Prophet (saw)?
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on January 06, 2019, 10:34:16 PM
@Iceman do you believe in this disgusting twelver Shia belief that Ali divorced the wife of the Prophet (saw)?

It's not a disgusting twelver Shia belief. Don't take everything you find in a book written or assembled by a Shia and labelled it as a belief of the entire community. Surely you have that much sense.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on January 06, 2019, 10:42:18 PM
In your Shi'i narrative, show me one time your smaller army defeated a mightier army.  Go on!

If anything, you lament over Imam Hussain (ra) and his 72 companions being overpowered by Yazeed's men.

No, little girl, you tell us of a time when your folks were able to overpower a mightier force.

Are you denying that your "infallibles" (ra) were overpowered, censored, tortured, poisoned and killed?  This is what they preach in your mosques so the verse can never be applied to you or your "infallibles" (ra) because they never overpowered a mightier opposing force.

So this is how you respond to your own hadith proving your "kufr", lol.

Imam, Ja’far b. Muhammad as-Sadiq (as) said, "Indeed we do not classify a person as a true believer until he follows all of our teachings..." (al-Kafi, vol. 2, pg. 78, sec. al-Wara’, no. 13)

Your own "infallible" Imams (ra) deemed those who refuse to give Zakah to be kafirs.  You are opposing the Qur'an and your "infallibles" (ra).  So much for your adherence to Thaqalayn, lol.

I'll sum up your entire post full of sarcasm and taunts in two points.

1, Prove to me from the Qur'an that overpowering others at any cost is a sign of being right and on Haq. In other words MIGHT IS RIGHT. Having the upper hand means you are true and right.

2, prove to me from the Qur'an that refusing to pay Zakah to the treasury, to the government makes you liable for the death penalty. That you are Wajib Ul Qatal.
Come on lad. Lets here it.

Enough ducking and diving from you.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: Mythbuster1 on January 07, 2019, 06:14:02 AM
It's not a disgusting twelver Shia belief. Don't take everything you find in a book written or assembled by a Shia and labelled it as a belief of the entire community. Surely you have that much sense.

ICEMAN SENSE!

He doesn’t even follow majlisi if majilisi wrote this, it goes against iceman.
He doesn’t believe in the hadith Muslim 720 posted of imams saying if you dont follow us you are not from us, it goes against iceman.
(He wants proof from Quran....yet.....he can’t prove divine Imamate.)😜😂😂👍👍
He has a promotion theory which no imam has EVER mentioned.😜
He uses videos of Sunni speakers and thinks that sunnies don’t know what they are saying.(imam Asim)😜
This guy is a believe as you go along Shiite using google as his main marja to get info from.......as can be seen by his repetitive blunders by using alislam.org as his proof.😂😂😂😂😂

This guy is a rabbit his promotion theory filled with divine Imamate is made up from someone’s devious mind and he jumps from one discussion to another and yet still cannot prove the damned theory.😜

Saqifa has mushed up his mind because divine Imamate never got to see the light of day instead all you got is iceman posting away nonsense without any proof from dodgy websites and disregarding evidences from his imams.😜

ICEMAN in a nutshell😊
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: muslim720 on January 07, 2019, 12:17:09 PM
I'll sum up your entire post full of sarcasm and taunts in two points.

And watch how I will dismantle your lies one by one.

Quote
1, Prove to me from the Qur'an that overpowering others at any cost is a sign of being right and on Haq. In other words MIGHT IS RIGHT. Having the upper hand means you are true and right.

If I am not mistaken, you introduced the following verse in this discussion:
"How often has a small group overpowered a mightier host with the permission of Allah?" And Allah is with as-Saabireen (those who are firm and uncompromising)." (2:249)

I only asked you to show me an example of "a small group overpowering a mightier host with the permission of Allah" within the Shi'i narrative.  There is none!  From Imam Ali, to Imam Hassan, to Imam Hussain (may Allah be pleased with them) all the way down to the hidden one, they were overpowered by "mightier hosts".  Therefore, the verse you brought up for unknown reasons actually goes against your own theology.

What is laughable is that then you demand from me to prove to you from the Qur'an "that overpowering others at any cost is a sign of being right and on Haq", lol.  Do you see how stupid you are?  You bring a verse and then require a proof from me when I have already shown you that your theology stands opposite to the verse.

Quote
2, prove to me from the Qur'an that refusing to pay Zakah to the treasury, to the government makes you liable for the death penalty. That you are Wajib Ul Qatal.

It is like you learned the phrase "wajib ul qatl" and you are parroting it to fake knowledge.  Rejecting any Qur'anic injunction is kufr and that is agreed upon in both Shi'i and Sunni circles.

....from Sahl from ibn Shamun from Al-Asam from Malikk ibn ‘Utbah from Ibn Taghlub who said: “Abu Abdullah (i.e. Al-Sadiq) told me: “Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam, nobody must judge with regards to these two types until Allah sends our Qa’im (Shia Mahdi) from Ahl Al-Bayt, and when Allah sends him, he will judge with regards to these two types according to the ruling of Allah, without requiring any testimony, which is: The adulterer will be stoned and the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded.” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

It is not my fault that you disobey your own sixth "infallible" Imam (ra) which in of itself is "kufr", according to your theology.

Quote
Enough ducking and diving from you.

You are the master of the 5 Ds of dodgeball.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on January 09, 2019, 08:37:58 AM
And watch how I will dismantle your lies one by one.

If I am not mistaken, you introduced the following verse in this discussion:
"How often has a small group overpowered a mightier host with the permission of Allah?" And Allah is with as-Saabireen (those who are firm and uncompromising)." (2:249)

I only asked you to show me an example of "a small group overpowering a mightier host with the permission of Allah" within the Shi'i narrative.  There is none!  From Imam Ali, to Imam Hassan, to Imam Hussain (may Allah be pleased with them) all the way down to the hidden one, they were overpowered by "mightier hosts".  Therefore, the verse you brought up for unknown reasons actually goes against your own theology.

What is laughable is that then you demand from me to prove to you from the Qur'an "that overpowering others at any cost is a sign of being right and on Haq", lol.  Do you see how stupid you are?  You bring a verse and then require a proof from me when I have already shown you that your theology stands opposite to the verse.

It is like you learned the phrase "wajib ul qatl" and you are parroting it to fake knowledge.  Rejecting any Qur'anic injunction is kufr and that is agreed upon in both Shi'i and Sunni circles.

....from Sahl from ibn Shamun from Al-Asam from Malikk ibn ‘Utbah from Ibn Taghlub who said: “Abu Abdullah (i.e. Al-Sadiq) told me: “Allah has declared the blood of two types of people permissible to be shed in Islam, nobody must judge with regards to these two types until Allah sends our Qa’im (Shia Mahdi) from Ahl Al-Bayt, and when Allah sends him, he will judge with regards to these two types according to the ruling of Allah, without requiring any testimony, which is: The adulterer will be stoned and the one who refuses to pay the Zakah will get beheaded.” [Al-Kafi vol. 3 – The Book Of Zakah ch. 2]

It is not my fault that you disobey your own sixth "infallible" Imam (ra) which in of itself is "kufr", according to your theology.

You are the master of the 5 Ds of dodgeball.

You asked me,

"I only asked you to show me an example of "a small group overpowering a mightier host with the permission of Allah"

And I respond with the words of Allah,

"How often has a small group overpowered a mightier host with the permission of Allah?" And Allah is with as-Saabireen (those who are firm and uncompromising)."

I only asked you to show me an example of "a small group overpowering a mightier host with the permission of Allah within the Shi'i narrative. There is none!  From Imam Ali, to Imam Hassan, to Imam Hussain (may Allah be pleased with them) all the way down to the hidden one, they were overpowered by "mightier hosts"."

"There is none" So what seems to be the problem? What do you see this as? A fault or a valid reason for being wrong? Is this how you distinguish right from wrong?
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: muslim720 on January 09, 2019, 12:09:26 PM
"I only asked you to show me an example of "a small group overpowering a mightier host with the permission of Allah"

And I respond with the words of Allah,

"How often has a small group overpowered a mightier host with the permission of Allah?" And Allah is with as-Saabireen (those who are firm and uncompromising)."

Chronologically speaking, you are all over the place.  It was you who came to us with your "majority are misguided" nonsense.  Your exact statement was: "Well the majority have always disbelieved or gone astray. And this isn't from me but from Allah and history. 😊 So don't be too excited and proud over numbers. 😊"

When brother Hani made you look stupid, you introduced a Qur'anic verse which stands against everything your theology says regarding the Ahlul Bayt (ra).  As a minority, unlike what the verse says, they were NEVER able to overpower a "mightier host".

Quote
"There is none" So what seems to be the problem? What do you see this as? A fault or a valid reason for being wrong? Is this how you distinguish right from wrong?

The problem is that you cannot prove how the verse helps your beliefs; the restricted, all-exclusive list of Ahlul Bayt (ra) you cling on to were always overpowered, as per your theology.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on January 09, 2019, 04:30:50 PM
Chronologically speaking, you are all over the place.  It was you who came to us with your "majority are misguided" nonsense.  Your exact statement was: "Well the majority have always disbelieved or gone astray. And this isn't from me but from Allah and history. 😊 So don't be too excited and proud over numbers. 😊"

When brother Hani made you look stupid, you introduced a Qur'anic verse which stands against everything your theology says regarding the Ahlul Bayt (ra).  As a minority, unlike what the verse says, they were NEVER able to overpower a "mightier host".

The problem is that you cannot prove how the verse helps your beliefs; the restricted, all-exclusive list of Ahlul Bayt (ra) you cling on to were always overpowered, as per your theology.

"Chronologically speaking, you are all over the place.  It was you who came to us with your "majority are misguided" nonsense.  Your exact statement was: "Well the majority have always disbelieved or gone astray. And this isn't from me but from Allah and history. 😊 So don't be too excited and proud over numbers. 😊"

Hold on. Lets clear this. Who kept yapping on that we are only this percentage out of the Muslim population? Who kept yapping on that they were this billion? Who keeps using numbers and might to justify themselves or the position of others. Who keeps using the example that if so and so was wrong then how or why did they get into authority. Or if so and do is right then why didn't there use might and challenged others head on.

My statement was in general and in response to those who keep using numbers or majority as a reason to be right and justify themselves. Where and when did I say that the majority are and have been always and everytime wrong in every case and place?

Hani didn't make me look stupid. How can someone make you look stupid by coming on taking a cheap shot and disappearing in thin air that he might end up getting caught up or cornered. This is his home and his court or you can say his arena. Which ever way you want to put it. He's left a handful of you to rant and rave, shout and scream but he's too hesitant and shy to engage.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: muslim720 on January 10, 2019, 12:14:41 PM
Hani didn't make me look stupid. How can someone make you look stupid by coming on taking a cheap shot and disappearing in thin air that he might end up getting caught up or cornered. This is his home and his court or you can say his arena. Which ever way you want to put it. He's left a handful of you to rant and rave, shout and scream but he's too hesitant and shy to engage.

The fact that you fail to acknowledge that brother Hani made you look stupid proves that you are stupid.  If you had an ounce of intelligence, you would have seen how he rendered your argument useless.  But for that, you need a fully functional brain, not a beaten-to-mush brain that has been subjected to physical beating on an annual basis.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on January 10, 2019, 08:56:39 PM
The fact that you fail to acknowledge that brother Hani made you look stupid proves that you are stupid.  If you had an ounce of intelligence, you would have seen how he rendered your argument useless.  But for that, you need a fully functional brain, not a beaten-to-mush brain that has been subjected to physical beating on an annual basis.

I DON'T BEAT MYSELF. WHO TOLD YOU I DID? 😊 This is exactly your problem. You're IGNORANT.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: muslim720 on January 11, 2019, 12:46:44 AM
I DON'T BEAT MYSELF. WHO TOLD YOU I DID?

Your low level of comprehension.
Title: Re: Imam Ali (ra) Could Divorce the Mothers of Believers (ra)
Post by: iceman on January 11, 2019, 12:48:19 AM
Your low level of comprehension.

No. Your level of ignorance.