TwelverShia.net Forum

Is using "Ilmel Rijaal" disbelief in the guiding nature of Quran and Sunnah?

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Soccer

Some responses I already predict coming up:

(1) Appeal to consequence: Almost all Shiite and Sunni scholars rely on it, so you would be accusing them of disbelief the guiding nature of Quran and Sunnah.

My response: True but majority opinion people or their experts and great men in their eyes have never been a proof of truth nor even actually increase the probability of it being true.

(2) Without Ilmel Rijaal, it becomes a matter of what we like and dislike in choosing Quranic interpretation or hadiths.

My response: This is false, because the nature of Quran is that it's a book of signs, proofs, and insights, and this is goes against conjecture and desires, and is a way to cure Satanic desires and conjectures, through reasoning and light of love and logic in every soul.

As for hadiths,  those sent by God talk calculating their words in a way that they are guidance, light and compliment the Quran in a way, that they can be verified by Quran just as the words of the Anbiya of Bani-Israel were calculated with their revelations and the previous revelations and also a way to pave way to the next revelation of the next Prophet.

In fact, it is for this reason, because weak hadiths by ilmel rijaal can provide insight to Quran and be verified by Quran and false hadiths that are authentic chain wise by ilmel irjaal can be refuted by Quran and contradict it, that particularly any reliance on ilmel rijaal is disbelief in Quran and Sunnah, Quran in it's majestic way of providing endless proofs and insights and disbelief in Sunnah which is to lower the words of God's chosen to that of normal humans and not perceive they calculate their words to guide humans and show the truth of God's words to all humans and Jinn.


(3) What if a hadith cannot be verified by Quran? Or Quranic interpretation doesn't have support in the Sunnah?

My response: There is no hadith if it is about guidance to humans and Jinn that cannot be verified in Quran even if to get there, you have to quote a lot of verses and subjects and had needed to download this reflect over years.  And there is no Quranic interpretation that is true, that there isn't verification in the hadiths.  Sometimes majority of hadiths give a wrong interpretation of Quran but somewhere in the legacy we been left with, whether directly or indirectly, a minority hadith contradicting a majority of hadiths on that subject or majority of hadiths that emphasize on the truth of it (we are lucky when it's the latter), you will always find the truth confirmed and supported in the hadiths -  and it maybe a minority report of an event that appears to have nothing to do directly with the verse, but on reflecting, you will find it supports the right interpretation.

The Nabi (s) didn't neglect conveying the religion so as to interpret Quran per our whims, nor is the Quran leaving about an issue of guidance and insights so as to not know for sure if a hadith in terms of guidance is supported or not supported by Quran.


The 4th response:  Ilmel Rijaal is needed for historical events.

My response, this requires a more detailed answer about real way to determine historical events, but this one is more complicated.

And in fact Quran also plays a role in knowing what historically has happened as well but of course, the Quran alone can't give this information, but Quran was never meant to be approached alone. 

Quran is such that whether you become more familiar with a falsehood way of teaching (a false religion and path for example) or true knowledge, it has a response to the falsehood and has verification to truth.

It's not a normal book, normal books can't contain all information of guidance for humans, but Quran is not a normal book at all.

It augments itself and cures the dark covering from the curses and spells of the devils of humans and Jinn upon Quran through itself primarily and hadiths help, but primarily through itself.

And Mohammad (s) who is of the highest realm in the highest sky and sees Quran beyond Jibrael,  also increases in knowledge and upgrades itself in majesty and exalted nature, so let alone us who know so little.

The Quran is not meant to remain at a certain stage, it augments itself and in a way, the deeper you go in knowledge, it becomes more clear, and so it increases how clear it is to by itself.

This is not only due to contextualization but that over time, if you reflect, you begin to break knots of black magic and open doors that lead to other doors of light and you begin to download proper information and light from God patiently and over time become enlightened.

I believe Ilmel Rijaal and any reliance on it is complete utter disbelief nature of Ahlulbayt (a) words as well as the nature of Quran.

The topic is about this.  Don't divert it about any other issue.


"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

The killing of apostates and stoning of Adulators is not found in the Quran. Yet all sects have hadith in their rijal system to accept this. It makes me question how such as big command was missed in the Quran. 

Soccer

The killing of apostates and stoning of Adulators is not found in the Quran. Yet all sects have hadith in their rijal system to accept this. It makes me question how such as big command was missed in the Quran.

It's not only not found in Quran, the opposite is found, commands against this and clear verses that are against these two.

We prefer not the hadiths over Quran, we prefer what our scholars tell us about hadiths and Quran over Quran. There is a difference. 

The latter according to Quran is due to us worshiping them heedlessly and taking them as lords but not in a knowingly and aware way.

When we disobey God and twist his words out of their place for the sake of following our "greats and leaders" then we have not payed attention to the repeated warnings of Quran and when we attribute God what we don't know let alone falsehood, we have deviated off the straight path, and this an unforgivable sin.

In fact, Shirk is evil because it diminishes God's greatness, but this not the only reason it's been proven unforgivable and great injustice. More verses condemn it on the basis that it's attributing God and reality what we don't know, people are making up religion and don't care about what God really is and make up stuff about him.

God took a covenant with us in Quran that we only say regarding God the truth. As soon as you begin to mix falsehood with truth, and you mix with pure springs (chosen leaders of God) unclean and murky sources (other people we can't be sure are pure by reputation), the religion goes haywire.

Quran and Sunnah provide insights when sought together and reflected about together.

Ilmel Rijaal and reliance on it, put's God perfect guidance into a very unstable human designed way of approaching reports, and to me, this is the worse way of how to approach Quran and Sunnah, and is a proof we are cursed disbelievers with little faith in the guiding nature of Quran and Sunnah.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

It's not only not found in Quran, the opposite is found, commands against this and clear verses that are against these two.


Where are the verse for killing apostates and stoning found?

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
15 Replies
3959 Views
Last post March 03, 2018, 04:35:18 AM
by Hani
6 Replies
1855 Views
Last post July 12, 2016, 08:37:16 AM
by Sabih
0 Replies
925 Views
Last post May 22, 2017, 06:54:50 PM
by Link
35 Replies
2602 Views
Last post May 24, 2020, 06:44:29 AM
by Soccer