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Need Help Addressing the References

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muslim720

Need Help Addressing the References
« on: December 29, 2019, 01:02:52 AM »
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Our friend whom I talked about in another topic, the "non sectarian Husayni", is at it again. 

In his recent series of articles, he has attacked Imam al-Zuhri (rah) for narrating Abu Talib's failure to accept Islam and he has tried to discredit Imam al-Zuhri (rah) for being employed by the Ummayads.  He should be the last one to have such an issue since he has been given platform by the Shias, whether it be on Muslim Vibe or the Shi'i mosque where he occasionally delivers the jummah khutbah. 

Nevertheless, I have a logical refutation ready for him.  I wanted to know if my case can be substantiated further by one of you also addressing his references in the following article: https://themuslimvibe.com/faith-islam/abu-talib-al-zuhris-questionable-hadith-part-4

JazakAllah khair.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Need Help Addressing the References
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2019, 01:17:47 PM »
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Our friend whom I talked about in another topic, the "non sectarian Husayni", is at it again. 

In his recent series of articles, he has attacked Imam al-Zuhri (rah) for narrating Abu Talib's failure to accept Islam and he has tried to discredit Imam al-Zuhri (rah) for being employed by the Ummayads.  He should be the last one to have such an issue since he has been given platform by the Shias, whether it be on Muslim Vibe or the Shi'i mosque where he occasionally delivers the jummah khutbah. 

Nevertheless, I have a logical refutation ready for him.  I wanted to know if my case can be substantiated further by one of you also addressing his references in the following article: https://themuslimvibe.com/faith-islam/abu-talib-al-zuhris-questionable-hadith-part-4

JazakAllah khair.

Part 3 and 4 of his articles are a spiders web. Apart from refuting them in a scientific way, those can be refuted by a simple fact that there are other Shawahid which support the fact that Abu Talib died as a disbeliever, which puts his concocted theories to rest. After these reports the question now raises on the credibility of this guy instead, while lifting the blame from Imam Zuhri.

Take these examples which are free of Zuhri or Musayyib:


وَحَدَّثَنَا عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ عُمَرَ الْقَوَارِيرِيُّ، وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ أَبِي بَكْرِ الْمُقَدَّمِيُّ، وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْمَلِكِ الأُمَوِيُّ، قَالُوا حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو عَوَانَةَ، عَنْ عَبْدِ الْمَلِكِ بْنِ عُمَيْرٍ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ الْحَارِثِ بْنِ نَوْفَلٍ، عَنِ الْعَبَّاسِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الْمُطَّلِبِ، أَنَّهُ قَالَ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ هَلْ نَفَعْتَ أَبَا طَالِبٍ بِشَىْءٍ فَإِنَّهُ كَانَ يَحُوطُكَ وَيَغْضَبُ لَكَ قَالَ ‏ "‏ نَعَمْ هُوَ فِي ضَحْضَاحٍ مِنْ نَارٍ وَلَوْلاَ أَنَا لَكَانَ فِي الدَّرْكِ الأَسْفَلِ مِنَ النَّارِ
It is reported on the authority of 'Abbas b. Abd al-Muttalib that he said: Messenger of Allah, have you benefited Abu Talib in any way for he defended you and was fervent in your defence? The Messenger of Allah (may peace he upon him) said: Yes; he would be in the most shallow part of the Fire: and but for me he would have been in the lowest part of Hell. [Sahih Muslim 209]

وَحَدَّثَنَا قُتَيْبَةُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ، حَدَّثَنَا لَيْثٌ، عَنِ ابْنِ الْهَادِ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ خَبَّابٍ، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ الْخُدْرِيِّ، أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ذُكِرَ عِنْدَهُ عَمُّهُ أَبُو طَالِبٍ فَقَالَ ‏ "‏ لَعَلَّهُ تَنْفَعُهُ شَفَاعَتِي يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ فَيُجْعَلُ فِي ضَحْضَاحٍ مِنْ نَارٍ يَبْلُغُ كَعْبَيْهِ يَغْلِي مِنْهُ دِمَاغُهُ
 Abu Sa'id al-Khudri reported: A mention was made of his uncle Abu Talib before the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) He said: My intercession may benefit him on the Day of Resurrection and he may be placed in the shallow part of the Fire which would reach his ankles and his brain would be boiling. [Sahih Muslim 210]

وَحَدَّثَنَا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا عَفَّانُ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ سَلَمَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا ثَابِتٌ، عَنْ أَبِي عُثْمَانَ النَّهْدِيِّ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ، أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ أَهْوَنُ أَهْلِ النَّارِ عَذَابًا أَبُو طَالِبٍ وَهُوَ مُنْتَعِلٌ بِنَعْلَيْنِ يَغْلِي مِنْهُمَا دِمَاغُهُ
 Ibn 'Abbas reported: The Prophet (ﷺ) said: Among the inhabitants of the Fire Abu Talib would have the least suffering, and he would be wearing two shoes (of Fire) which would boil his brain. [Sahih Muslim 212]

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ حَاتِمِ بْنِ مَيْمُونٍ، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ سَعِيدٍ، حَدَّثَنَا يَزِيدُ بْنُ كَيْسَانَ، عَنْ أَبِي حَازِمٍ الأَشْجَعِيِّ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم لِعَمِّهِ ‏"‏ قُلْ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ اللَّهُ أَشْهَدُ لَكَ بِهَا يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ لَوْلاَ أَنْ تُعَيِّرَنِي قُرَيْشٌ يَقُولُونَ إِنَّمَا حَمَلَهُ عَلَى ذَلِكَ الْجَزَعُ لأَقْرَرْتُ بِهَا عَيْنَكَ فَأَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ ‏{‏ إِنَّكَ لاَ تَهْدِي مَنْ أَحْبَبْتَ وَلَكِنَّ اللَّهَ يَهْدِي مَنْ يَشَاءُ‏}
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah said to his uncle (at the time of his death): Make a profession of it that there is no god but Allah and I will bear testimony (of your being a Muslim) on the Day of judgment. He (Abu Talib) said: Were it not the fear of the Quraysh blaming me (and) saying that it was the fear of (approaching death) that induced me to do so, I would have certainly delighted your eyes. It was then that Allah revealed: " Verily thou canst not guide to the right path whom thou lovest. And it is Allah Who guideth whom He will and He knoweth best who are the guided" (xxviii-56). [Sahih Muslim 25]

It was narrated from 'Ali(R) that he came to the Prophet(S) and said: Abu Talib has died. The Prophet(S) said: "Go and bury him." 'Ali said: He died a mushrik. He said: "Go and bury him." 'Ali said: When I had buried him, I came back to the Prophet(S) and he said: "Do ghusl."[Musnad Ahmad #759]


As for Zuhri then:

Ibn Asakir related that Hisham ibn Abdulmalik (Caliph from Umeyyah) asked Sulaiman ibn Yasar about explanation of this verse (24:11): “and (as for) him who took upon himself the main part thereof, he shall have a grievous chastisement”. Hisham asked who was this man who would have a grievous chastisement? Sulaiman answered that this was Abdullah ibn Ubay ibn Salul. Hisham said: “You lied, rather he was Ali ibn Abi Talib”. When Hisham asked the same question from imam az-Zuhri, he also said that it was ibn Ubay. Hisham again said: “You lied, rather he was Ali ibn Abi Talib”. Imam az-Zuhri answered: “I lied?! May you have no father! By Allah if a caller from sky would say me that lying is permitted, I wouldn’t lie. Such and such related to me that the one who would have greater share therein was Abdullah ibn Ubay ibn Salul”. (end 0f quote “Sunnah wal Makanatuha fi Tashriy al-Islami” p 283, abriged)

Just see how imam az-Zuhri rejected accusation from Ali, and answered to caliph of Umawiyun!

This is the reason:

أقول: الزهري و إن كان من علماء العامة إلا أنه يظهر من هذه الرواية و غيرها أنه كان يحب علي بن الحسين ع و يعظمه.
Esteemed Shia scholar (al-Khoei) said: al-Zuhri is from the `ulemaa of the `aamah (sunnis) except that he showed from this narration and others that he loved `Alee bin al-Hussayn(as)[4th Shia Imam] and held him (AS) in a dignified (position)
[Source: al-Khoei, Mu`jam Rijaal al-Hadeeth, vol. 16, pg. 182, hadeeth # 10960]
« Last Edit: December 29, 2019, 01:20:48 PM by Noor-us-Sunnah »

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Need Help Addressing the References
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2019, 02:01:53 PM »
Quote
Now that a brief introduction to al-Musayyib has been given, we must address the “an-anah” used on his part in the transmission of this report. “An-anah” is a term that the scholars of Hadith coined in reference to the usage of “that” in the transmission of a report. For example, when a narrator says: “It was narrated to me from so-and-so, from his father, that he reported to him that when…”, the usage of such ambiguous wording in relaying the chain of transmission does not affirm [nor deny] whether the transmitter did in fact see, hear, or witness anything from the Prophet. It is also a method used by those who camouflage their reports (i.e. tadlis); they did not actually hear or see the event, but narrate it as if they did, making it ambiguous as to who or what the direct source of the event was.

Without going into too much more detail, “an-anah” does not bear any [authoritative] weight nor does it constitute [nor affirm] al-ittisal (i.e. affirmation of a connected/direct transmission) when used by a mudallis; a camouflaged narrator who uses ambiguous wordings when relaying his transmission. This can be genuine or malicious. Malicious intent is the intentional attempt to cover up the direct source of the narration, particularly if the source is known to be weak, in order to avoid discrediting the report itself.


Al-Musayyib’s an-anah

The an-anah of mudallis rather creates more ambiguity and room for other possibilities. Al-Musayyib makes no indication in the narration that he was actually present at the event of Abu Talib’s passing, nor whether he heard the account from somebody else who was.

Now, the guy claims that al-Musayyib used an-anah while transmitting the report, without asking his evidence for considering al-Musayyib a Mudallis, I would like to ask him, where did al-Musayyib used an-anah while transmitting the report?

He used Bukhari as his source in the beginning , so let me quote the reports from Bukhari, we don't find an-anah by al-Musayyib. This guy pulled a fastone to fool the readers. Because as we can see it was Sa'eed bin al-Musayyib who used "AN" while narrating from his Father, but al-Mussayib didn't use "AN".

حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ، أَخْبَرَنَا يَعْقُوبُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي أَبِي، عَنْ صَالِحٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي سَعِيدُ بْنُ الْمُسَيَّبِ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، أَنَّهُ أَخْبَرَهُ أَنَّهُ، لَمَّا حَضَرَتْ أَبَا طَالِبٍ الْوَفَاةُ جَاءَهُ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَوَجَدَ عِنْدَهُ أَبَا جَهْلِ بْنَ هِشَامٍ، وَعَبْدَ اللَّهِ بْنَ أَبِي أُمَيَّةَ بْنِ الْمُغِيرَةِ، قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم لأَبِي طَالِبٍ ‏"‏ يَا عَمِّ، قُلْ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ اللَّهُ، كَلِمَةً أَشْهَدُ لَكَ بِهَا عِنْدَ اللَّهِ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَقَالَ أَبُو جَهْلٍ وَعَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ أَبِي أُمَيَّةَ يَا أَبَا طَالِبٍ، أَتَرْغَبُ عَنْ مِلَّةِ عَبْدِ الْمُطَّلِبِ فَلَمْ يَزَلْ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَعْرِضُهَا عَلَيْهِ، وَيَعُودَانِ بِتِلْكَ الْمَقَالَةِ، حَتَّى قَالَ أَبُو طَالِبٍ آخِرَ مَا كَلَّمَهُمْ هُوَ عَلَى مِلَّةِ عَبْدِ الْمُطَّلِبِ، وَأَبَى أَنْ يَقُولَ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ اللَّهُ‏.‏ فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ أَمَا وَاللَّهِ لأَسْتَغْفِرَنَّ لَكَ، مَا لَمْ أُنْهَ عَنْكَ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَأَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ تَعَالَى فِيهِ ‏{‏مَا كَانَ لِلنَّبِيِّ‏}‏ الآيَةَ‏.‏
[Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 2, Book 23, Hadith 442]

حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّزَّاقِ، أَخْبَرَنَا مَعْمَرٌ، عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ الْمُسَيَّبِ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، قَالَ لَمَّا حَضَرَتْ أَبَا طَالِبٍ الْوَفَاةُ دَخَلَ عَلَيْهِ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَعِنْدَهُ أَبُو جَهْلٍ وَعَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ أَبِي أُمَيَّةَ، فَقَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ أَىْ عَمِّ قُلْ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ اللَّهُ‏.‏ أُحَاجُّ لَكَ بِهَا عِنْدَ اللَّهِ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَقَالَ أَبُو جَهْلٍ وَعَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ أَبِي أُمَيَّةَ يَا أَبَا طَالِبٍ، أَتَرْغَبُ عَنْ مِلَّةِ عَبْدِ الْمُطَّلِبِ‏.‏ فَقَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ لأَسْتَغْفِرَنَّ لَكَ مَا لَمْ أُنْهَ عَنْكَ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَنَزَلَتْ ‏{‏مَا كَانَ لِلنَّبِيِّ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَنْ يَسْتَغْفِرُوا لِلْمُشْرِكِينَ وَلَوْ كَانُوا أُولِي قُرْبَى مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُمْ أَنَّهُمْ أَصْحَابُ الْجَحِيمِ‏}
[Sahih Bukhari Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 197]

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الْيَمَانِ، أَخْبَرَنَا شُعَيْبٌ، عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي سَعِيدُ بْنُ الْمُسَيَّبِ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، قَالَ لَمَّا حَضَرَتْ أَبَا طَالِبٍ الْوَفَاةُ جَاءَهُ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَوَجَدَ عِنْدَهِ أَبَا جَهْلٍ وَعَبْدَ اللَّهِ بْنَ أَبِي أُمَيَّةَ بْنِ الْمُغِيرَةِ، فَقَالَ ‏"‏ أَىْ عَمِّ قُلْ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ اللَّهُ، كَلِمَةً أُحَاجُّ لَكَ بِهَا عِنْدَ اللَّهِ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَقَالَ أَبُو جَهْلٍ وَعَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ أَبِي أُمَيَّةَ أَتَرْغَبُ عَنْ مِلَّةِ عَبْدِ الْمُطَّلِبِ فَلَمْ يَزَلْ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَعْرِضُهَا عَلَيْهِ، وَيُعِيدَانِهِ بِتِلْكَ الْمَقَالَةِ حَتَّى قَالَ أَبُو طَالِبٍ آخِرَ مَا كَلَّمَهُمْ عَلَى مِلَّةِ عَبْدِ الْمُطَّلِبِ، وَأَبَى أَنْ يَقُولُ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ اللَّهُ‏.‏ قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ وَاللَّهِ لأَسْتَغْفِرَنَّ لَكَ مَا لَمْ أُنْهَ عَنْكَ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَأَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ ‏{‏مَا كَانَ لِلنَّبِيِّ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَنْ يَسْتَغْفِرُوا لِلْمُشْرِكِينَ‏}‏ وَأَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ فِي أَبِي طَالِبٍ، فَقَالَ لِرَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏{‏إِنَّكَ لاَ تَهْدِي مَنْ أَحْبَبْتَ وَلَكِنَّ اللَّهَ يَهْدِي مَنْ يَشَاءُ‏}‏‏.‏ قَالَ ابْنُ عَبَّاسٍ ‏{‏أُولِي الْقُوَّةِ‏}‏ لاَ يَرْفَعُهَا الْعُصْبَةُ مِنَ الرِّجَالِ‏.‏ ‏{‏لَتَنُوءُ‏}‏ لَتُثْقِلُ‏.‏ ‏{‏فَارِغًا‏}‏ إِلاَّ مِنْ ذِكْرِ مُوسَى‏.‏ ‏{‏الْفَرِحِينَ‏}‏ الْمَرِحِينَ‏.‏ ‏{‏قُصِّيهِ‏}‏ اتَّبِعِي أَثَرَهُ، وَقَدْ يَكُونُ أَنْ يَقُصَّ الْكَلاَمَ ‏{‏نَحْنُ نَقُصُّ عَلَيْكَ‏}‏‏.‏ ‏{‏عَنْ جُنُبٍ‏}‏ عَنْ بُعْدٍ عَنْ جَنَابَةٍ وَاحِدٌ، وَعَنِ اجْتِنَابٍ أَيْضًا، يَبْطِشُ وَيَبْطُشُ‏.‏ ‏{‏يَأْتَمِرُونَ‏}‏ يَتَشَاوَرُونَ‏.‏ الْعُدْوَانُ وَالْعَدَاءُ وَالتَّعَدِّي وَاحِدٌ‏.‏ ‏{‏آنَسَ‏}‏ أَبْصَرَ‏.‏ الْجِذْوَةُ قِطْعَةٌ غَلِيظَةٌ مِنَ الْخَشَبِ، لَيْسَ فِيهَا لَهَبٌ، وَالشِّهَابُ فِيهِ لَهَبٌ‏.‏ وَالْحَيَّاتُ أَجْنَاسٌ الْجَانُّ وَالأَفَاعِي وَالأَسَاوِدُ‏.‏ ‏{‏رِدْءًا‏}‏ مُعِينًا‏.‏ قَالَ ابْنُ عَبَّاسٍ ‏{‏يُصَدِّقُنِي‏}‏ وَقَالَ غَيْرُهُ ‏{‏سَنَشُدُّ‏}‏ سَنُعِينُكَ كُلَّمَا عَزَّزْتَ شَيْئًا فَقَدْ جَعَلْتَ لَهُ عَضُدًا‏.‏ مَقْبُوحِينَ مُهْلَكِينَ‏.‏ ‏{‏وَصَّلْنَا‏}‏ بَيَّنَّاهُ وَأَتْمَمْنَاهُ‏.‏ ‏{‏يُجْبَى‏}‏ يُجْلَبُ ‏.‏‏{‏بَطِرَتْ‏}‏ أَشِرَتْ‏.‏ ‏{‏فِي أُمِّهَا رَسُولاً‏}‏ أُمُّ الْقُرَى مَكَّةُ وَمَا حَوْلَهَا‏.‏ ‏{‏تُكِنُّ‏}‏ تُخْفِي‏.‏ أَكْنَنْتُ الشَّىْءَ أَخْفَيْتُهُ، وَكَنَنْتُهُ أَخْفَيْتُهُ وَأَظْهَرْتُهُ‏.‏ ‏{‏وَيْكَأَنَّ اللَّهَ‏}‏ مِثْلُ أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ ‏{‏يَبْسُطُ الرِّزْقَ لِمَنْ يَشَاءُ وَيَقْدِرُ‏}‏ يُوَسِّعُ عَلَيْهِ وَيُضَيِّقُ عَلَيْهِ‏.‏
[Sahih Bukhari Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 295]

muslim720

Re: Need Help Addressing the References
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2019, 11:29:14 PM »
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

JazakAllah khair for your assistance.  I will copy-paste my post aimed at him.  I owe most, if not all, of the information in points 2 and 3 to you.

Thank you.

"Your effort to prove Abu Talib's (may Allah deal justly with him) "eemaan" was void of any scholarly method, in fact, quite lopsided and downright deceptive. Five articles to prove the "eemaan" of a man whom we all revere only because your underlying motive was to remove what you perceive to be a "blemish" from Imam Ali's (ra) record.

Let us be honest for minute, if it is not too hard. The Shias, known for their habit of mocking the Sahaba (ra), fell in their own trap when they tried to discredit them by stating that their parents were polytheists. When the chickens came home to roost, they could not stomach the fact that their accusation pointed right back at their first "infallible" Imam (ra) whose father also died without accepting Islam. Ever since then, there has been this frenzy to not only disprove the eemaan of exemplary Muslims (like most Sahaba and Mothers of Believers) but also to try to prove the "eemaan" of someone who did not accept Islam (Abu Talib). You, unfortunately, have tried to further the second part of that effort but have failed miserably for the following reasons:

1. You have tried to establish a strong link between Imam az-Zuhri (rah) and the Umayyads. Even if we accept your claim at face-value, who said association with any Umayyad automatically confers "nasb" upon someone? In fact, you failed your own standard because you questioned Imam az-Zuhri's (rah) credibility based on his involvement with the Umayyads when you are heavily invested in "The Muslim Vibe", a Shi'i website, which has given you the platform to publish your articles. So how dare you condemn az-Zuhri (rah) for doing exactly what you are doing (that is, issuing statements to please those who have given you an outlet for your ill-informed ideas)?

2. If Imam az-Zuhri (rah) was an Umayyad sell-out, please explain this to us: Ibn Asakir related that Hisham ibn Abdulmalik (Caliph from Umeyyah) asked Sulaiman ibn Yasar about explanation of this verse (24:11): “and (as for) him who took upon himself the main part thereof, he shall have a grievous chastisement”. Hisham asked who was this man who would have a grievous chastisement? Sulaiman answered that this was Abdullah ibn Ubay ibn Salul. Hisham said: “You lied, rather he was Ali ibn Abi Talib”. When Hisham asked the same question from imam az-Zuhri, he also said that it was ibn Ubay. Hisham again said: “You lied, rather he was Ali ibn Abi Talib”. Imam az-Zuhri answered: “I lied?! May you have no father! By Allah if a caller from sky would say me that lying is permitted, I wouldn’t lie. Such and such related to me that the one who would have greater share therein was Abdullah ibn Ubay ibn Salul”. (end of quote “Sunnah wal Makanatuha fi Tashriy al-Islami” p 283, abriged)

How could a "sell out" and "nasibi" talk to the Umayyad leader in those words, "may you have no father", and ALSO DEFEND Imam Ali (ra)?

Even Al-Khoei, the esteemed Shi'i scholar, said the following about az-Zuhri (rah): al-Zuhri is from the `ulemaa of the `aamah (sunnis) except that he showed from this narration and others that he loved `Alee bin al-Hussayn (as) [4th Shia Imam] and held him (AS) in a dignified (position)
[Source: al-Khoei, Mu`jam Rijaal al-Hadeeth, vol. 16, pg. 182, hadeeth # 10960]

3. Lastly, you have discredited the ahaadith that speak about Abu Talib not accepting Islam based on the fact that they are reported by az-Zuhri (rah) and al-Mussayib (ra). To keep this brief, I will not touch upon al-Mussayib (ra) although through my research and corroboration, I noticed that Sa'eed bin al-Mussayib used "AN", while narrating from his father, but I did not see al-Mussayib use "AN". Nevertheless, I can give you four narrations from Sahih Muslim - free from az-Zuhri and al-Mussayib - that declare Abu Talib's fate due to his inability or refusal to accept Islam. Would you then change your stance? Or is it that you reference the Sahihain ONLY to use it against us?"
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

 

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