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Refutation of Twelvershia.net on Ikmal udin verse.

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fgss

إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

muslim720

Re: Refutation of Twelvershia.net on Ikmal udin verse.
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2019, 02:31:57 PM »
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

I admit that I have zero expertise in ahaadith but having studied for law school exam, I can spot flawed reasoning and the failure of premises to support a conclusion.

Having never heard of Shahr ibn Hawshab, I did some research and found out the following:

1.  A Muslim posed a question to a scholar.  Not getting into the details, we can deduce from the answer that Shahr ibn Hawshab's reports are acceptable when corroborated by others

Please visit: https://www.islamweb.net/en/fatwa/371374/a-hadeeth-by-shahr-ibn-hawshab

2.  Also, tadlees is not a simple task.  Please visit the following link to read about different types of tadlees, the ruling of a hadith with tadlees and the ruling of a person who practiced it: https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/46975/what-exactly-is-tadlees

3.  The very next line in the article by TwelverShia - "actually there is not a single authentic narration from any companion who considered the incident of Ghadeer to be the proof of Imamate and leadership of Ali (ra)" - loosely points to the my first point.  What Shahr ibn Hawshab narrated is not corroborated by anyone else.  However, the Rawaafidh are too busy reading their own meaning in something they do not understand so it is natural for them to lose track of supporting evidence.

Therefore, the "refutation" is not as simple as showing an authentic report by way of Shahr ibn Hawshab and claiming that he is a reliable narrator.  Rather, the Rawaafidh will have to present an authentic report by way of Shahr ibn Hawshab not corroborated by anyone else or any other chain.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 02:33:20 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Refutation of Twelvershia.net on Ikmal udin verse.
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2019, 07:20:09 PM »
Quote
This report is Munkar(denounced) and unreliable, hence discarded. It even contradicts several authentic reports we mentioned above.

The problem in this narration is the Tafarrud of the narrator Shahr bin Hawshab.

We read in Taqreeb al-tah’dheeb:
شهر بن حوشب الأشعري الشامي مولى أسماء بنت يزيد بن السكن صدوق كثير الإرسال والأوهام
Shahr ibn Hawshab al-ash’ari al-shami, the slave of Asma bint Yazeed ibn al-sakan. He is Saduq, and he commits lot of Irsal and he has lot of illusions. [Taqreeb al-tah’dheeb Vol. 1, p. 269]

Moreover, we read in Ibn Rajab’s Sharh of Ilal al-tirmidhi
وقد ذكر الترمذي أن هؤلاء وأمثالهم ممن تكلم فيه من قبل حفظه وكثرة خطئه لا يحتج بحديث أحد منهم إنما انفرد
Tirmidhi has mentioned that these and the similar people who are criticized due to bad memory, or excessive mistakes, can’t be taken as proof in hadith when they are alone. [Sharh Ilal al-Tirmidhi, Vol. 1, p. 148]

Similarly Ibn Qayyim says in Hadi al-Arwah
وشهرين حوشب ضعفه مشهور والحديث منكر يخالف الأحاديث الصحيحة … قال الدولابي شهر بن حوشب لا يشبه حديثه الناس وقال ابن عون بن حوشب شهرا تركوه وقال النسائي وابن عدي ليس بالقوي وقال أبو حاتم لا يحتج به وتركه شعبة ويحيى بن سعيد وهذان من أعلم الناس بالحديث ورواته وعلله وأن كان غير هؤلاء قد وثقه وحسن حديثه فلا ريب أنه إذا انفرد بما يخالف ما رواه الثقات لم يقبل
Shahb ibn Hawshab’s weakness is famous, and his narration opposes saheeh narrations … Dawlabi said that his hadith is not like the narration of the people. Ibn Awn said that he has been left. Nasai and Ibn Adi said that he is not strong. Abu Hatim said that he can’t be used as a proof. Shu’ba and Yahya ibn Sa’eed left him, and they are from the most knowledgeable people about hadeeth, and its narrators, and its ilal. And even though others have authenticated him as well, and declared his narrations as Hassan, still there is no doubt that when he is alone in what the Thiqat (pl.) narrate, then it will not be accepted. [Hadi al-Arwah, Vol. 1, p. 106]

Verdict of Scholars regarding the report of Abu Huraira:

(a). Ibn Katheer says regarding this narration in his book ‘al-Bidayah wal-Nihaya’
فأما الحديث الذي رواه ضمرة عن ابن شوذب ، عن مطر الوراق ، عن شهر بن حوشب ، عن أبي هريرة قال : لما أخذ رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم بيد علي قال : ” من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه ” . فأنزل الله عز وجل : ” اليوم أكملت لكم دينكم ” ( المائدة : 3 ) . قال أبو هريرة : وهو يوم غدير خم ، من صام يوم ثمان عشرة من ذي الحجة كتب له صيام ستين شهرا . فإنه حديث منكر جدا ، بل كذب ; لمخالفته لما ثبت في ” الصحيحين ” عن أمير المؤمنين عمر بن الخطاب أن هذه الآية نزلت في يوم الجمعة يوم عرفة ورسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم واقف بها كما قدمنا
As far as the hadeeth is concerned which is narrated by Ibn Shawzab from Matar al-Waraaq from Shahr ibn Shawzab from Abu Hurairah that when the Messenger of Allah (S) took the hand of Ali and said : “Whoever considers me his Mawla, then Ali is his Mawla” , so Allah revealed the verse “Today I have completed your religion for you” (al-Maidah : Verse 3) and Abu Hurairah said : This was the day of Ghadeer Khumm, whoever fasts on the 18th of Dhil-Hijjah then Allah will write down the reward of fasts equal to sixty months for him”, then this hadeeth is extremely munkar, rather it is fabrication, because it opposes what is proven in Sahihayn from Ameer ul Momineen Umar ibn al-Khattab that he said : This verse was revealed on the day of Jumah, the day of Arafat, and the Prophet(SAWS) was standing there as we mentioned earlier.[ al-Bidayah wal-Nihaya, Vol. 5, p. 233]

(b). Similarly, Imam Alusi narrates from Dhahabi that he said:
وعن الذهبي أن «من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه» متواتر يتيقن أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قاله ، وأما اللهم وال من والاه ، فزيادة قوية الإسناد ، وأما صيام ثماني عشرة ذي الحجة فليس بصحيح ولا والله نزلت تلك الآية إلا يوم عرفة قبل غدير خم بأيام
Dhahabi said the statement ‘Whosoever considers me his Mawla, then I am his Mawla’ is mutawatir, making it sure that the Prophet (S) said it. As far as the part ‘Allah befriend him whosoever considers him as his friend’ then this addition has also strong chains of transmissions. And as far as the part regarding the fast on the 18th of Dhil Hijjah, then it is NOT Sahih, and by Allah, this verse was revealed on the day of Arafat, days before the event of Ghadeer Khum. [Tafsir Ruh al-Ma’ani, Vol. 5, p. 69].

(c). Similarly, Imam Suyuti says in al-Durr al-Manthur
وأخرج ابن مردويه والخطيب وابن عساكر بسند ضعيف عن أبي هريرة قال : لما كان يوم غدير خم وهو يوم ثماني عشر من ذي الحجة قال النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم : ” من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه
فانزل الله اليوم أكملت لكم دينكم ”
Ibn Mardawiyah and Khateeb and Ibn Asakir have narrated through weak chains of transmissions from Abu Hurairah that he said : “When it was the day of Ghadeer Khum, and it was the 18th of Dhil Hijjah, the Prophet (S) said ‘Whosoever considers me his friend, then Ali is his friend’ so Allah revealed the verse ‘Today I have accomplished your religion for you’. [Al-Durr al-Manthur, Vol. 3, p. 19].

(d). Similarly, Allamah Alusi says in his Tafsir:
وروى ضمرة بإسناده عن أبي هريرة قال : لما أخذ رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يد علي كرم الله تعالى وجهه قال : من كنت مولاه ، فأنزل الله تعالى { اليوم أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ } [ المائدة : 3 ] ثم قال أبو هريرة : وهو يوم غدير خم ، ومن صام يوم ثماني عشرة من ذي الحجة كتب الله تعالى له صيام ستين شهراً ، وهو حديث منكر جداً
Zamurrah has narrated through his sanad from Abu Hurairah that when the Messenger of Allah (S) took the hand of Ali and said : “Whoever considers me his Mawla, then Ali is his Mawla” , so Allah revealed the verse “Today I have completed your religion for you” (al-Maidah : Verse 3) and Abu Hurairah said : This was the day of Ghadeer Khumm, whoever fasts on the 18th of Dhil-Hijjah then Allah will write down the reward of fasts equal to sixty months for him”. This hadeeth is extremely munkar. [Tafsir Ruh al-Ma’ani, Vol. 5, p. 69].

From
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2016/04/14/the-ghadeer-khumm-event-as-understood-by-ahlelbayt-sahaba-ahlus-sunnah/

muslim720

Re: Refutation of Twelvershia.net on Ikmal udin verse.
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2019, 07:44:48 PM »
Taken from the same article, I can say I was so right. 

"Moreover, we read in Ibn Rajab’s Sharh of Ilal al-tirmidhi
وقد ذكر الترمذي أن هؤلاء وأمثالهم ممن تكلم فيه من قبل حفظه وكثرة خطئه لا يحتج بحديث أحد منهم إنما انفرد
Tirmidhi has mentioned that these and the similar people who are criticized due to bad memory, or excessive mistakes, can’t be taken as proof in hadith when they are alone". [Sharh Ilal al-Tirmidhi, Vol. 1, p. 148]
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Refutation of Twelvershia.net on Ikmal udin verse.
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2019, 07:50:17 PM »
Rather, the Rawaafidh will have to present an authentic report by way of Shahr ibn Hawshab not corroborated by anyone else or any other chain.
Walaikumsalam.

I don’t think this point is worth considering in this case, because Shahr is from the level of those narrators whose isolated reports, if go against authentic reports , are deemed as munkar.

muslim720

Re: Refutation of Twelvershia.net on Ikmal udin verse.
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2019, 08:30:20 PM »
Walaikumsalam.

I don’t think this point is worth considering in this case, because Shahr is from the level of those narrators whose isolated reports, if go against authentic reports , are deemed as munkar.

Even better!  In my ignorance of the science of hadith, I kept an option open for the Rawaafidh to redeem themselves; seems like there is not much they can say except issue an apology, lol.

The real question now is this: who is going to bring this refutation to Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi Baqvi Taqvi Stupdvi's attention?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 08:32:22 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Refutation of Twelvershia.net on Ikmal udin verse.
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2019, 08:45:07 PM »
Even better!  In my ignorance of the science of hadith, I kept an option open for the Rawaafidh to redeem themselves; seems like there is not much they can say except issue an apology, lol.

The real question now is this: who is going to bring this refutation to Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi Baqvi Taqvi Stupdvi's attention?

I guess he was well aware of this refutation at youpuncturedtheark, as the link to Ghadeer article on SC is present from ages, but he purposely chose to address Twelvershia.net’s article, and the reason is quite obvious.

 

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