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The elevated chain: Its definition and importance

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Hani

The elevated chain: Its definition and importance
« on: November 05, 2015, 02:34:05 AM »
Salam,


An article I wrote today about the elevation of chains based on some material I found online.
http://twelvershia.net/2015/11/04/the-elevated-chain-its-definition-and-importance/


If Moin and Farid can give any advice/corrections/directions that would be awesome.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Farid

Re: The elevated chain: Its definition and importance
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2015, 08:54:32 AM »
Wa alaykum alsalam,

Good article. Nice surprise.

I agree. Al Kulayni didn't care about late Imams. It is because they had no weight. If you wanted the various Shia sects to follow you, you need to quote the Imams that the majority accepted.

Hani

Re: The elevated chain: Its definition and importance
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2015, 09:25:15 PM »
Abu Muslim bro, link the guys to ShiaChat and ask them on their forum for a logical explanation as to why al-Kulayni didn't narrate from the 11th Imam or take his religion from the emissaries as he was instructed?
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Khaled

Re: The elevated chain: Its definition and importance
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2015, 09:27:34 PM »
Barak Allahu feek akhi, this is a fantastic article

How reliable are his chains to the two Imams, Baqir and Ja'far رحمهما الله?  Does Kulayni have reports that are similar to the ones non-12ers report about them?
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Hani

Re: The elevated chain: Its definition and importance
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2015, 09:36:50 PM »
That's a separate research bro, but let me tell you that Kulayni's chains to al-`Askari I noticed have mostly been graded as weak by al-Majlisi, so not only does he have a small number of narrations from his last Imams, but they're also weak for the most part.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Khaled

Re: The elevated chain: Its definition and importance
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2015, 09:45:43 PM »
That's a separate research bro, but let me tell you that Kulayni's chains to al-`Askari I noticed have mostly been graded as weak by al-Majlisi, so not only does he have a small number of narrations from his last Imams, but they're also weak for the most part.

It's definitely different research, but I think it can add to the argument; that he purposefully avoided their known students and went through even longer chains filled with unknown and criticized narrators just because the matn coincided with his belief.
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Furkan

Re: The elevated chain: Its definition and importance
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2015, 12:45:06 AM »
Nice to read this. May Allah reward you for your efforts
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Farid

Re: The elevated chain: Its definition and importance
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2015, 09:05:17 AM »
Quote
Abu Muslim bro, link the guys to ShiaChat and ask them on their forum for a logical explanation as to why al-Kulayni didn't narrate from the 11th Imam or take his religion from the emissaries as he was instructed?

They were in Taqiyyah and under supervision of caliphs so they had no chance to spread their views like their fathers.

...yet, Al Jawad narrated 30,000 hadiths in one sitting.

Re: The elevated chain: Its definition and importance
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2015, 05:33:32 PM »
Please what is the authenticity of the hadith below :

Imam al-Haythami (d. 807 H)
records:
ﻭﻋﻦ ﺍﺑﻦ ﻋﺒﺎﺱ ﺃﻥ ﻋﻠﻴﺎ ﻛﺎﻥ ﻳﻘﻮﻝ ﻓﻲ
ﺣﻴﺎﺓ ﺭﺳﻮﻝ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﺻﻠﻰ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﻋﻠﻴﻪ ﻭ ﺳﻠﻢ :
ﺇﻥ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﻋﺰ ﻭ ﺟﻞ ﻳﻘﻮﻝ : } ﺃﻓﺈﻥ ﻣﺎﺕ ﺃﻭ
ﻗﺘﻞ ﺍﻧﻘﻠﺒﺘﻢ ﻋﻠﻰ ﺃﻋﻘﺎﺑﻜﻢ { ﻭﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﻻ ﻧﻨﻘﻠﺐ
ﻋﻠﻰ ﺃﻋﻘﺎﺑﻨﺎ ﺑﻌﺪ ﺇﺫ ﻫﺪﺍﻧﺎ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﺗﻌﺎﻟﻰ ﻭﺍﻟﻠﻪ
ﻟﺌﻦ ﻣﺎﺕ ﺃﻭ ﻗﺘﻞ ﻷﻗﺎﺗﻠﻦ ﻋﻠﻰ ﻣﺎ ﻗﺎﺗﻞ ﻋﻠﻴﻪ
ﺣﺘﻰ ﺃﻣﻮﺕ ﻭﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﺇﻧﻲ ﻷﺧﻮﻩ ﻭﻭﻟﻴﻪ ﻭﺍﺑﻦ
ﻋﻤﻪ ﻭﻭﺍﺭﺛﻪ ﻓﻤﻦ ﺃﺣﻖ ﺑﻪ ﻣﻨﻲ


Al-Haythami comments:

ﺭﻭﺍﻩ ﺍﻟﻄﺒﺮﺍﻧﻲ ﻭﺭﺟﺎﻟﻪ ﺭﺟﺎﻝ ﺍﻟﺼﺤﻴﺢ

Al-Tabarani records it, and its
narrators are narrators of the Sahih.


(Imam Nur al-Deen ‘Ali b. Abi Bakr
al-Haythami, Majma’ al-Zawaid
(Beirut: Dar al-Fikr; 1412 H), vol. 9,
p. 183, # 14765)

Hani

Re: The elevated chain: Its definition and importance
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2015, 11:20:21 PM »
Please what is the authenticity of the hadith below


Salam, Bro try not to go off-topic, whenever you wish to ask something open a new thread with a clear descriptive title in the correct section.

As for that Hadith, I saw it narrated by al-Hakim, al-Nasa'i and al-Tabarani with the same chain:

 عَمْرُو بْنِ حَمَّادِ بْنِ طَلْحَةَ الْقَنَّادُ، ثنا أَسْبَاطُ بْنُ نَصْرٍ، عَنْ سِمَاكِ بْنِ حَرْبٍ، عَنْ عِكْرِمَةَ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ، أَنَّ عَلِيًّا رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ، كَانَ يَقُولُ

... -> `Amro al-Qannad -> Asbat bin Nasr -> Simak bin Harb -> `Ikrimah Mawla ibn `Abbas -> `Abdullah ibn `Abbas

1- `Amro ibn Talhah is called a Rafidi apparently for his hatred of `Uthman, though he is truthful and it is disliked to take `Ali's virtues from his likes for obvious reasons.

2- Asbat al-Koufi is honest but makes a lot of mistakes and has narrated unsupported reports from Simak.

3- Simak bin Harb is honest with bad memory, he got confused at the end of his days and his narrations from `Ikrimah are shaky.

4-`Ikrimah the servant of ibn `Abbas whom the Rafidah accuse of being an evil Nasibi liar. Obviously they'll disregard it if he's narrating `Ali's virtue. He is trustworthy and very reliable when it comes to Ibn `Abbas's narrations.

Ruling: Weak Hadith.

Although there is no issue in accepting it out of lenience since it's a report in virtues and the text is not problematic.

`Ali says at the end of the report:
ﻭﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﺇﻧﻲ ﻷﺧﻮﻩ ﻭﻭﻟﻴﻪ ﻭﺍﺑﻦﻋﻤﻪ ﻭﻭﺍﺭﺛﻪ ﻓﻤﻦ ﺃﺣﻖ ﺑﻪ ﻣﻨﻲ
[By Allah, I am his brother, his beloved friend, his cousin and his inheritor so who has more right to him than me?]

I don't see an issue.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

 

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