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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Imamah-Ghaybah => Topic started by: Link on March 18, 2017, 04:21:24 PM

Title: "Those who have the Authority" (Ulil-Amr)
Post by: Link on March 18, 2017, 04:21:24 PM
Argument from me:

1. Context shows leadership of religious clergy of Jews and Christians negated to the extent they CANNOT have a portion of Authority, and then contrasted to the family of Abraham, who have a great authority from God to the extent that God put in hell who turned away from it and linked faith to Himself and his Signs who believed in it. And envied people are COMPARED by SIMILARITY to that type of grace on the family of Abraham in flow to that, implying, they hold the authority. We are told then to obey God and obey the Messenger and those who Possess the Authority from us!

Counter argument:

2. It's says "then if you disagree with a thing, refer it to God and the Messenger....", if we are expected to obey Ulil-Amr absolutely and refer to them for our religion they would have been included in referral.

My counter argument to that counter argument:

3. That is imagining all sorts of implied hidden messages that are not there, the statement can be simply affirming the Ulil-Amr as a means to refer to God and the Messenger, and that the "so..." says the primary command that all should strive to achieve in obeying Ulil-Amr is to learn the Quran and Sunnah from them, to the extent, that we all refer back disputes to CLEAR teachings of Quran and CLEAR signs of Quran, and well AGREED upon Sunnah due to the presence of the Imams who preserved the teachings and who will be a source of unity in society.

The fa in this statement can be shown to show the primary role of appointing them is so we can refer disputes back to God and the Messenger and not our desires.

Furthermore, it can be further emphasis, that if we do not do that, that is if we 1. Do not obey God, and Rasool, and Ulil-Amr to the extent we refer things back to Quran and Sunah when we differ and dispute....then we are not at all believers of God and last day though we may convince ourselves we are!

In flow to the clergy contrast, it means, do not make idols as a means of division between yourself for the sake of the Taghut you hold high in yourself and others out of your desire, but rather I have appointed you a family like the family of Abraham as True Authorities over you, so therefore refer your disputes to the Quran and Sunnah and do not divide and choose your interpretations out of your desire neither follow fabrications in the name of following God's Messenger for I have appointed you possessors of the Authority that I have given my Messenger and that I have given all Messengers who were sent to be obeyed by my permission!

4. Counter to that argument above:

Hadiths from Imams saying their is Tahreef to 4:59.

5. My counter argument, I don't believe in those hadiths and neither do you, so it's ad hoc argument which is a fallacy!





Title: Re: "Those who have the Authority" (Ulil-Amr)
Post by: Hani on March 19, 2017, 06:30:32 PM
Look at how many times this clown opens the same topics after being refuted

Ulil-Amr and the context of the divine authority
http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/ulil-amr-and-the-context-of-the-divine-authority-of-the-family-of-ibrahim/

Ulil-Amr (another analysis)
http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/ulil-amr-(another-analysis)/60/

Context of Ulil-Amr verses
http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/context-of-ulil-amr-verses/
Title: Re: "Those who have the Authority" (Ulil-Amr)
Post by: Link on March 19, 2017, 06:43:52 PM
I thought a summary would be good.