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Belief in knowledge of ghayb for non prophets [Shia vs Sunni]

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fgss

Shia belief: There are 73 units of the Greatest Name of Allah and ahlulbayt possess 72 units of that. This is how much there is difference between the knowledge of Allah and ahlulbayt.

Abu Ja’far (as) said: "Verily, the Greatest Name of Allah consists of seventy three units (Harf). Asaf possessed only one unit of it, and when he spoke it (i.e., used it) the ground between him and the throne of Bilqis (the Queen of Sheba/Saba) folded/subsided so that he could take the throne with his hands, and then the ground opened out and returned to what it was originally in less than the twinkling of an eye.

We (Ahlul-Bayt) have seventy two units of the Greatest Name, and one unit remained with Allah which is kept exclusively in His knowledge of Unseen (Ilm al-Ghayb); and there is no efficacy or power except by Allah, the High, the Great.”(Usul al-Kafi, Kitab al-Hujjah, Tradition #613)

Source: https://www.al-islam.org/pt/node/28050


Sunni belief: Forget about knowledge of Allah swt (which is absolute and has no limits), no one can even match with the knowledge given by Allah swt to His blessed prophets.

 It was narrated that Ibn 'Abbas said:
"The Prophet (ﷺ) drew back the curtain when the people were in rows behind Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, and said: 'O people, there is nothing left of the features of Prophethood except a good dream that a Muslim sees or is seen by others for him.' Then he said: 'Verily, I have been forbidden from reciting the Qur'an when bowing or prostrating. As for bowing, glorify the Lord therein, and as for prostration, strive hard in supplication for it is more deserving of a response.'" Sunan an-Nasa'i 1045

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "A good dream (that comes true) of a righteous man is one of forty-six parts of prophetism." Sahih al-Bukhari 6983
 

« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 06:02:37 PM by fgss »
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Rationalist

Re: Belief in knowledge of ghayb for non prophets [Shia vs Sunni]
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2017, 07:43:08 PM »
Refer to this topic.

http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/special-powers-presented-by-prophets-and-imams/msg15472/#msg15472

I even challenged the admin on revisiting the Salaf and he backed away.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Belief in knowledge of ghayb for non prophets [Shia vs Sunni]
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2017, 12:44:30 AM »
We read in Shia book Al Mu’amrah al Kubra by Ayatullah Hussain al Radhy, Page 227

ما رواه الكشي في الصحيح عن ابن أبي عمير، عن شعيب، عن أبي بصير، قال قلت لأبي عبد الله (ع) إنهم يقولون! قال: و ما يقولون قلت يقولون تعلم قطر المطر و عدد النجوم و ورق الشجر و وزن ما في البحر و عدد التراب، فرفع يده إلى السماء، و قال: سبحان الله سبحان الله لا و الله ما يعلم هذا إلا الله.

Shaikh Kashi reported in a sahih hadith from ibn abi Umair, from Shu’aib, from abi Baseer, who said: I said to abi Abdullah (as): “Indeed they claim!” Imam (as) asked: “And what do they claim?” I said: “They claim that you know (number of) drops of the rain, number of stars and leaves of trees, weight of what is in the seas and number of (particles of) sand.” So Imam (as) raised his hand towards the sky and said: “Subhanallah! Subhanallah! No one knows all this except for Allah (swt).”

Comment: The Imam Abu Abdullah clearly stated that, none knows the knowledge of unseen except Allah(swt).

B. We read in Shia book, Nahjul Balagha:

I  can see a people whose faces are like shields covered with rough-scraped skins. They dress themselves in silken and woollen clothes and hold dear excellent horses. Their killing and bloodshed shall take place freely till the wounded shall walk over the dead and the number of runners-away shall be less than those taken prisoner:
One of his companions said to him: O’ Amir al-mu’minin, you have been given knowledge of hidden things. Whereupon Amir al-mu’minin laughed and said to the man who belonged to the tribe of Banu Kalb: O’ brother of Kalb! This is not knowledge of hidden things (`ilmu’l-ghayb), (3) these matters have been acquired from him (namely in Prophet) who knew them. As regard knowledge of hidden things, that means knowledge of the Day of Judgement, and the things covered by Allah in the verse. Verily, Allah is He with Whom is the knowledge of the Hour… (Qur’an, 31:34) Therefore, Allah alone knows what is there in the wombs, whether male or female, ugly or handsome, generous or miserly, mischievous or pious, and who will be the fuel for Hell and who will be in the company of the Prophets in Paradise. This is the knowledge of the hidden things which is not known to anyone save Allah. All else is that whose knowledge Allah passed on to His Prophet and he passed it on to me, and prayed for me that my bosom may retain it and my ribs may hold it. [Najh al Balagha Sermon 127]

Taken from
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2011/09/23/part-1the-imams-from-ahlebayt-whom-shia-consider-to-be-their-divinely-appointed-imams-were-on-the-creed-of-ahlesunnah-wal-jamaah/

fgss

Re: Belief in knowledge of ghayb for non prophets [Shia vs Sunni]
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2017, 06:00:53 AM »
Refer to this topic.

http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/special-powers-presented-by-prophets-and-imams/msg15472/#msg15472

I even challenged the admin on revisiting the Salaf and he backed away.

And taqqiyah was that special power. Which no one else used from ahlebayt other than 12 Imams.
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

fgss

Re: Belief in knowledge of ghayb for non prophets [Shia vs Sunni]
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2017, 06:19:18 AM »
We read in Shia book Al Mu’amrah al Kubra by Ayatullah Hussain al Radhy, Page 227

ما رواه الكشي في الصحيح عن ابن أبي عمير، عن شعيب، عن أبي بصير، قال قلت لأبي عبد الله (ع) إنهم يقولون! قال: و ما يقولون قلت يقولون تعلم قطر المطر و عدد النجوم و ورق الشجر و وزن ما في البحر و عدد التراب، فرفع يده إلى السماء، و قال: سبحان الله سبحان الله لا و الله ما يعلم هذا إلا الله.

Shaikh Kashi reported in a sahih hadith from ibn abi Umair, from Shu’aib, from abi Baseer, who said: I said to abi Abdullah (as): “Indeed they claim!” Imam (as) asked: “And what do they claim?” I said: “They claim that you know (number of) drops of the rain, number of stars and leaves of trees, weight of what is in the seas and number of (particles of) sand.” So Imam (as) raised his hand towards the sky and said: “Subhanallah! Subhanallah! No one knows all this except for Allah (swt).”

Comment: The Imam Abu Abdullah clearly stated that, none knows the knowledge of unseen except Allah(swt).

B. We read in Shia book, Nahjul Balagha:

I  can see a people whose faces are like shields covered with rough-scraped skins. They dress themselves in silken and woollen clothes and hold dear excellent horses. Their killing and bloodshed shall take place freely till the wounded shall walk over the dead and the number of runners-away shall be less than those taken prisoner:
One of his companions said to him: O’ Amir al-mu’minin, you have been given knowledge of hidden things. Whereupon Amir al-mu’minin laughed and said to the man who belonged to the tribe of Banu Kalb: O’ brother of Kalb! This is not knowledge of hidden things (`ilmu’l-ghayb), (3) these matters have been acquired from him (namely in Prophet) who knew them. As regard knowledge of hidden things, that means knowledge of the Day of Judgement, and the things covered by Allah in the verse. Verily, Allah is He with Whom is the knowledge of the Hour… (Qur’an, 31:34) Therefore, Allah alone knows what is there in the wombs, whether male or female, ugly or handsome, generous or miserly, mischievous or pious, and who will be the fuel for Hell and who will be in the company of the Prophets in Paradise. This is the knowledge of the hidden things which is not known to anyone save Allah. All else is that whose knowledge Allah passed on to His Prophet and he passed it on to me, and prayed for me that my bosom may retain it and my ribs may hold it. [Najh al Balagha Sermon 127]

Taken from
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2011/09/23/part-1the-imams-from-ahlebayt-whom-shia-consider-to-be-their-divinely-appointed-imams-were-on-the-creed-of-ahlesunnah-wal-jamaah/

Brother, but in contrast al-islam.org aka shiachat believe this:

We (Ahlul-Bayt) have seventy two units of the Greatest Name, and one unit remained with Allah which is kept exclusively in His knowledge of Unseen (Ilm al-Ghayb); and there is no efficacy or power except by Allah, the High, the Great.” And 13:43 refers to only Imam Ali a.s. Thus only he has complete knowledge of the book.

And in reply they might say such knowledge of drops of rain, number of stars etc belong to that one unit which is with Allah exclusively. While ahlebayt has 72 units of knwoledge out of total 73.

Is this belief of units correct?
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Belief in knowledge of ghayb for non prophets [Shia vs Sunni]
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2017, 09:15:28 AM »
We read in Shia book Al Mu’amrah al Kubra by Ayatullah Hussain al Radhy, Page 227

ما رواه الكشي في الصحيح عن ابن أبي عمير، عن شعيب، عن أبي بصير، قال قلت لأبي عبد الله (ع) إنهم يقولون! قال: و ما يقولون قلت يقولون تعلم قطر المطر و عدد النجوم و ورق الشجر و وزن ما في البحر و عدد التراب، فرفع يده إلى السماء، و قال: سبحان الله سبحان الله لا و الله ما يعلم هذا إلا الله.

Shaikh Kashi reported in a sahih hadith from ibn abi Umair, from Shu’aib, from abi Baseer, who said: I said to abi Abdullah (as): “Indeed they claim!” Imam (as) asked: “And what do they claim?” I said: “They claim that you know (number of) drops of the rain, number of stars and leaves of trees, weight of what is in the seas and number of (particles of) sand.” So Imam (as) raised his hand towards the sky and said: “Subhanallah! Subhanallah! No one knows all this except for Allah (swt).”

Comment: The Imam Abu Abdullah clearly stated that, none knows the knowledge of unseen except Allah(swt).

B. We read in Shia book, Nahjul Balagha:

I  can see a people whose faces are like shields covered with rough-scraped skins. They dress themselves in silken and woollen clothes and hold dear excellent horses. Their killing and bloodshed shall take place freely till the wounded shall walk over the dead and the number of runners-away shall be less than those taken prisoner:
One of his companions said to him: O’ Amir al-mu’minin, you have been given knowledge of hidden things. Whereupon Amir al-mu’minin laughed and said to the man who belonged to the tribe of Banu Kalb: O’ brother of Kalb! This is not knowledge of hidden things (`ilmu’l-ghayb), (3) these matters have been acquired from him (namely in Prophet) who knew them. As regard knowledge of hidden things, that means knowledge of the Day of Judgement, and the things covered by Allah in the verse. Verily, Allah is He with Whom is the knowledge of the Hour… (Qur’an, 31:34) Therefore, Allah alone knows what is there in the wombs, whether male or female, ugly or handsome, generous or miserly, mischievous or pious, and who will be the fuel for Hell and who will be in the company of the Prophets in Paradise. This is the knowledge of the hidden things which is not known to anyone save Allah. All else is that whose knowledge Allah passed on to His Prophet and he passed it on to me, and prayed for me that my bosom may retain it and my ribs may hold it. [Najh al Balagha Sermon 127]

Taken from
https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2011/09/23/part-1the-imams-from-ahlebayt-whom-shia-consider-to-be-their-divinely-appointed-imams-were-on-the-creed-of-ahlesunnah-wal-jamaah/

Brother, but in contrast al-islam.org aka shiachat believe this:

We (Ahlul-Bayt) have seventy two units of the Greatest Name, and one unit remained with Allah which is kept exclusively in His knowledge of Unseen (Ilm al-Ghayb); and there is no efficacy or power except by Allah, the High, the Great.” And 13:43 refers to only Imam Ali a.s. Thus only he has complete knowledge of the book.

And in reply they might say such knowledge of drops of rain, number of stars etc belong to that one unit which is with Allah exclusively. While ahlebayt has 72 units of knwoledge out of total 73.

Is this belief of units correct?

Read this article:
http://realtashayyu.blogspot.com/2011/11/imams-and-knowledge-of-ghaib.html

You will find that the current Shia beliefs differ from their classical Scholars.

 Shia Ayatullah Burujerdi wrote in Taraiful Maqal, Volume 2, Page 356

وبالجملة الظاهر أن القدماء كانوا مختلفين في المسائل الأصولية، فربما كان
شئ عند بعضهم فاسدا أو كفرا أو غلوا، وعند آخرين عدمه بل مما يجب الاعتقاد
به،

And the bottom line is that it is apparent that the beliefs of the classical scholars were different, so sometimes something according to them would be invalid/corrupt, kufr (disbelief) or Ghulu, while according to the latter scholars it would not be so, in fact it would be regarded obligatory to believe in it.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Belief in knowledge of ghayb for non prophets [Shia vs Sunni]
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2017, 08:55:00 PM »
Shia belief: There are 73 units of the Greatest Name of Allah and ahlulbayt possess 72 units of that. This is how much there is difference between the knowledge of Allah and ahlulbayt.

Abu Ja’far (as) said: "Verily, the Greatest Name of Allah consists of seventy three units (Harf). Asaf possessed only one unit of it, and when he spoke it (i.e., used it) the ground between him and the throne of Bilqis (the Queen of Sheba/Saba) folded/subsided so that he could take the throne with his hands, and then the ground opened out and returned to what it was originally in less than the twinkling of an eye.

We (Ahlul-Bayt) have seventy two units of the Greatest Name, and one unit remained with Allah which is kept exclusively in His knowledge of Unseen (Ilm al-Ghayb); and there is no efficacy or power except by Allah, the High, the Great.”(Usul al-Kafi, Kitab al-Hujjah, Tradition #613)

Source: https://www.al-islam.org/pt/node/28050


Sunni belief: Forget about knowledge of Allah swt (which is absolute and has no limits), no one can even match with the knowledge given by Allah swt to His blessed prophets.

 It was narrated that Ibn 'Abbas said:
"The Prophet (ﷺ) drew back the curtain when the people were in rows behind Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, and said: 'O people, there is nothing left of the features of Prophethood except a good dream that a Muslim sees or is seen by others for him.' Then he said: 'Verily, I have been forbidden from reciting the Qur'an when bowing or prostrating. As for bowing, glorify the Lord therein, and as for prostration, strive hard in supplication for it is more deserving of a response.'" Sunan an-Nasa'i 1045

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "A good dream (that comes true) of a righteous man is one of forty-six parts of prophetism." Sahih al-Bukhari 6983

This is not the difference in knowledge between Ahlulbayt and Allah - such a comparison shouldn't even be considered. Allah's knowledge is limitless, He is limitless, the Ahlulbayt look to Allah for knowledge. They are dependent on Him, He is dependant one no one. The Ahlulbayt look to him for supernatural abilities, they do not possess these powers on their own, just like all the Prophets.

This hadith is about a specific subject (ism al-adh'am) and not about ilm in general. Please do not be confused.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

ZulFiqar

Re: Belief in knowledge of ghayb for non prophets [Shia vs Sunni]
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2017, 11:51:39 PM »
The OP cited the Hadith about al-Mubashshiraat meaning the visions/dreams that a Believer sees which is one of the remaining parts of Nubuwwah. Some people, such as Jawed Ghamidi and Eng. Muhammad Ali Mirza, cite this Hadith as a proof that there is no Tahdith, Ilham, and Kashaf for this Umma, as all that remains from Nubuwwah is Ru'ya as-Sadiqa. I've even heard the latter claim that Sayyidina Umar رضى الله عنه was not a Muhaddath. He interprets the Hadith "If there was one (Muhaddath) in my Umma it would be Umar b. al-Khattab" as negation rather than affirmation that Umar is a Muhaddath, meaning, there were Muhaddathoon in the previous Ummam, but there is none in my Umma, if there was to be, then Umar would be one, but he is not. But this interpretation of the said Engineer is novel and goes against majority of Ulama who have affirmed that Umar was a Muhaddath.

But upon scrutinous deliberation of the matter, I come to the conclusion that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was not denying the occurrence of Tahdith, Ilham and Kashaf for the Umma when he said "Nothing remains of Nubuwwah except good dreams", because in that Hadith he is talking about the disclosing of matters of the unseen (Mughayibaat). Keep in mind that it is not necessary that a person who experiences Ilham or Sharh-al-Sadr is receiving information of the unseen, rather, he is receiving guidance to an affair that has already been revealed as being true, or being guided to do something Allah wants him to do. For example, the Sharh-al-Sadr of Sayyidina Abi Bakr رضى الله عنه to fight the Arab tribes refusing to pay Zakat. That is not an example of Allah giving news of the Unseen to Abi Bakr رضى الله عنه, because news of the unseen is only revealed upon a Rasul (72:26-27), or an ordinary Believer can acquire some premonition of the unseen through a good dream.
My Blog
Forbidden_Link

fgss

Re: Belief in knowledge of ghayb for non prophets [Shia vs Sunni]
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2017, 09:41:54 AM »
Shia belief: There are 73 units of the Greatest Name of Allah and ahlulbayt possess 72 units of that. This is how much there is difference between the knowledge of Allah and ahlulbayt.

Abu Ja’far (as) said: "Verily, the Greatest Name of Allah consists of seventy three units (Harf). Asaf possessed only one unit of it, and when he spoke it (i.e., used it) the ground between him and the throne of Bilqis (the Queen of Sheba/Saba) folded/subsided so that he could take the throne with his hands, and then the ground opened out and returned to what it was originally in less than the twinkling of an eye.

We (Ahlul-Bayt) have seventy two units of the Greatest Name, and one unit remained with Allah which is kept exclusively in His knowledge of Unseen (Ilm al-Ghayb); and there is no efficacy or power except by Allah, the High, the Great.”(Usul al-Kafi, Kitab al-Hujjah, Tradition #613)

Source: https://www.al-islam.org/pt/node/28050


Sunni belief: Forget about knowledge of Allah swt (which is absolute and has no limits), no one can even match with the knowledge given by Allah swt to His blessed prophets.

 It was narrated that Ibn 'Abbas said:
"The Prophet (ﷺ) drew back the curtain when the people were in rows behind Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, and said: 'O people, there is nothing left of the features of Prophethood except a good dream that a Muslim sees or is seen by others for him.' Then he said: 'Verily, I have been forbidden from reciting the Qur'an when bowing or prostrating. As for bowing, glorify the Lord therein, and as for prostration, strive hard in supplication for it is more deserving of a response.'" Sunan an-Nasa'i 1045

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "A good dream (that comes true) of a righteous man is one of forty-six parts of prophetism." Sahih al-Bukhari 6983

This is not the difference in knowledge between Ahlulbayt and Allah - such a comparison shouldn't even be considered. Allah's knowledge is limitless, He is limitless, the Ahlulbayt look to Allah for knowledge. They are dependent on Him, He is dependant one no one. The Ahlulbayt look to him for supernatural abilities, they do not possess these powers on their own, just like all the Prophets.

This hadith is about a specific subject (ism al-adh'am) and not about ilm in general. Please do not be confused.

What is that ism al-adham whose 72 units out of 73 are only with ahlebayt?
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

 

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