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Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام

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ZulFiqar

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

Sunnis who believe that Jesus of Nazareth is alive for the past two millenia, but is hidden from us somewhere in the Heavens, believe in a kind of Ghayba akin to the Shi’a?

In any discussion you have with a Shi’i concerning the Ghayba, the irrationality of their belief that the twelfth Imam is living for over a thousand years, if they are sharp they will immediately bring up the example of Jesus of Nazareth. Hence they use it as a precedent and a proof for the concept of Ghayba. I feel this point is important because many Sunnis go to the extent of ridiculing the Shi’ite idea of Ghayba when ironically they themselves happen to believe in the Ghayba of Jesus.

But based on my study of this issue, I don’t find any evidence from Qur’an & Sunna regarding the alleged Ghayba of Jesus, on the contrary, I find it explicitly written that Jesus is deceased.

On my blog I’ve written about the Rafa or ascension of Jesus arguing that it has to be a Rafa of his spirit and not his body.


http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/2017/06/the-ascension-of-jesus-sura-355-4158.html
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ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2017, 09:43:10 PM »
Check out my response to the argument that the belief that Jesus hasn't died is proven from Sura 4:159

http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/2017/06/as-ive-proven-repeatedly-on-my-blog.html
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zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2017, 12:44:20 AM »
The analogy between Isa AS & the shi'i mahdi is not valid as we had the seal of prophets SAW come since Isa AS & also righteous leaders.
Shi'i believe their mahdi to be a seal.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2017, 12:45:37 AM »
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

Sunnis who believe that Jesus of Nazareth is alive for the past two millenia, but is hidden from us somewhere in the Heavens, believe in a kind of Ghayba akin to the Shi’a?

In any discussion you have with a Shi’i concerning the Ghayba, the irrationality of their belief that the twelfth Imam is living for over a thousand years, if they are sharp they will immediately bring up the example of Jesus of Nazareth. Hence they use it as a precedent and a proof for the concept of Ghayba. I feel this point is important because many Sunnis go to the extent of ridiculing the Shi’ite idea of Ghayba when ironically they themselves happen to believe in the Ghayba of Jesus.

But based on my study of this issue, I don’t find any evidence from Qur’an & Sunna regarding the alleged Ghayba of Jesus, on the contrary, I find it explicitly written that Jesus is deceased.

On my blog I’ve written about the Rafa or ascension of Jesus arguing that it has to be a Rafa of his spirit and not his body.


http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/2017/06/the-ascension-of-jesus-sura-355-4158.html


Respectfully disagree with you. Those Twelvers are not that sharp as you claimed if they pull out Jesus (as) ghayba's card to justify the ghayba of their 12th imam.

Nobody ridicule the ghayba for the sake of ghayba alone. What we find it perplex is that Twelvers claiming it is imperative for Allah (due to his Lutf) to send an infallible imam to guide human being at all times until qiyamah so that human being won't have any hujjah infront of Him (swt) later. But yet the number 12 is nowhere to be seen. What's the point of Allah sending a guide but yet you are deprieve of the so-called guidance. 

What makes it more ridiculous is that this guy has been missing for more than 1,100 years! And the gullible Twelvers will believe whatever justifications thrown to them no matter how absurd they might sound.

Jesus (as) went to ghayba but nobody claimed he (as) needs to guide people while in ghayba.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 12:47:53 AM by Abu Muhammad »

Hani

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2017, 01:52:53 AM »
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
Sunnis who believe that Jesus of Nazareth is alive for the past two millenia, but is hidden from us somewhere in the Heavens, believe in a kind of Ghayba akin to the Shi’a?

I believe he is dead but will return to earth.

إِذْ قَالَ اللَّـهُ يَا عِيسَىٰ إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ

فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنتَ أَنتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَنتَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ

The Qur'an clearly states that he is Mutawaffaa, most Ahlul-Sunnah explain it to mean "Taken" but it also means "death". Believing in his current physical life serves no purpose, why does he even need to be alive physically? Our physical bodies don't last and are usually our cause of death, if God raised him then He also put him into physical death, he cannot be counted among the living on this earth. However, he is alive spiritually, similart to martyrs, their pure souls dwell in a peaceful place in the heavens as they await to be admitted in the highest ranks of paradise.

The opinion of his "death" is a minority opinion, reported from Ibn `Abbas and Wahb bin Munabbih.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 02:02:37 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2017, 02:41:31 AM »


I believe he is dead but will return to earth.




Ok you seem very open minded and sincere. But I'd like you to clarify how is it possible for a deceased person to return to this world
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Hani

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2017, 03:09:15 AM »


I believe he is dead but will return to earth.




Ok you seem very open minded and sincere. But I'd like you to clarify how is it possible for a deceased person to return to this world

{Say, "He will give them life who produced them the first time; and He is, of all creation, Knowing."}
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2017, 03:27:42 AM »

{Say, "He will give them life who produced them the first time; and He is, of all creation, Knowing."}

This Verse is concerning the Resurrection on Yawm al Qiyama. You are talking about a deceased person returning to this Dunya

وَ حَرٰمٌ عَلٰی قَرۡیَۃٍ اَہۡلَکۡنٰہَاۤ اَنَّہُمۡ لَا یَرۡجِعُوۡنَ
It is haram for a township that We destroyed that they should ever return (21:95)
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Hani

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2017, 05:00:46 AM »
`Isa (as) is not a township He destroyed. He sends him back as He sends us on that day, no difference, no need for questions.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2017, 05:11:15 AM »
`Isa (as) is not a township He destroyed. He sends him back as He sends us on that day, no difference, no need for questions.

Please don't mind my questions. I am not trying to argue with you but only trying to find the truth in this matter.

You see you say that Jesus is going to come back to this world after having died. This is exactly the Shi'ite concept of Raj'a, i.e., the return of certain deceased people to this world BEFORE Qiyamah.

I will quote two other passages from the Holy Quran since you say that 21:95 is concerning an entire township, not individual souls.


حَتّٰۤی اِذَا جَآءَ اَحَدَہُمُ الۡمَوۡتُ قَالَ رَبِّ ارۡجِعُوۡنِ۞

لَعَلِّیۡۤ اَعۡمَلُ صَالِحًا فِیۡمَا تَرَکۡتُ کَلَّا ؕ اِنَّہَا کَلِمَۃٌ ہُوَ قَآئِلُہَا ؕ وَ مِنۡ وَّرَآئِہِمۡ بَرۡزَخٌ اِلٰی یَوۡمِ یُبۡعَثُوۡنَ
Until when comes unto one of them Death, he says: “O my Lord, send me back...so that I may perform deeds of piety in that [world] I left behind.” But no! It is simply a word he says. And before them is a barrier until the Day they are raised up. (Surah 23:99-100)


اَللّٰہُ یَتَوَفَّی الۡاَنۡفُسَ حِیۡنَ مَوۡتِہَا وَ الَّتِیۡ لَمۡ تَمُتۡ فِیۡ مَنَامِہَا ۚ فَیُمۡسِکُ الَّتِیۡ قَضٰی عَلَیۡہَا الۡمَوۡتَ وَ یُرۡسِلُ الۡاُخۡرٰۤی اِلٰۤی اَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّی ؕ اِنَّ فِیۡ ذٰلِکَ لَاٰیٰتٍ لِّقَوۡمٍ یَّتَفَکَّرُوۡنَ

Allah takes the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep. So He withholds those [souls] upon whom death has been decreed, and sends back the others until a term appointed. Verily, in that are Signs for a people who reflect. (Surah 39:42)

Now these two Verses are proof texts that the souls of the deceased cannot return to this world, because the Barzakh (barrier) has been set up to prevent that until the final Resurrection. Similarly, the second passage states that when Allah takes the soul of someone when death has been decreed for him, He (Allah) withholds the soul from coming back. فَیُمۡسِکُ الَّتِیۡ قَضٰی عَلَیۡہَا الۡمَوۡتَ

Likewise there is a Hadith Qudsi where Allah tells the martyr who wishes to return to this world:

 إِنَّهُ قَدْ سَبَقَ مِنِّي أَنَّهُمْ إِلَيْهَا لَا يُرْجَعُونَ

So how do you answer this point?
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Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2017, 09:33:01 AM »

I believe he is dead but will return to earth.

إِذْ قَالَ اللَّـهُ يَا عِيسَىٰ إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ

فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنتَ أَنتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَنتَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ

The Qur'an clearly states that he is Mutawaffaa, most Ahlul-Sunnah explain it to mean "Taken" but it also means "death". Believing in his current physical life serves no purpose, why does he even need to be alive physically? Our physical bodies don't last and are usually our cause of death, if God raised him then He also put him into physical death, he cannot be counted among the living on this earth. However, he is alive spiritually, similart to martyrs, their pure souls dwell in a peaceful place in the heavens as they await to be admitted in the highest ranks of paradise.

The opinion of his "death" is a minority opinion, reported from Ibn `Abbas and Wahb bin Munabbih.

This is an incorrect belief akhee.

Please go through these links you'll find that the argument of death of Isa(as) is actually weak.

http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2010/02/jesus-did-not-die-according-to-quran.html

http://www.thecult.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=70


One of the earliest books talks about the descend of Isa(as).

    عن الزهري، عن سعيد بن المسيب، أنه سمع أبا هريرة يقول: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: «والذي نفسي بيده ليوشكن أن ينزل فيكم ابن مريم حكما عدلا، وإماما مقسطا، يكسر الصليب، ويقتل الخنزير، ويضع الجزية، ويفيض المال حتى لا يقبله أحد»

    (Ma’mar narrates) from Al-Zuhri – Sa’id bin Al-Musayyib that he heard Abu Huraira saying: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, said: “By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, (‘Eisa) the Son of Maryam will soon descend amongst you as a just ruler and leader and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish Jizya. There will be abundance of money and no-one will accept charity.” [Al-Jami of Ma’mar ibn Rashid as-San’ani (d. 152/769) included in Musannaf ‘Abdul Razzaq, vol.11 pp.399 Hadith 20840]


Akhee Hani you may also read this book in arabic

https://d1.islamhouse.com/data/ar/ih_books/single2/ar_fasl_maqal_in_Raising_Jesus_is_alive.pdf

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2017, 09:48:43 AM »
The arguments put forward by those who say Jesus is alive are extremely weak and easily repudiated. First of all, it is established from Ibn Abbas (R.A)

حَدَّثَنَا حَدَّثَنَا أَبِي ، ثنا أَبُو صَالِحٍ ، حَدَّثَنِي مُعَاوِيَةُ بْنُ صَالِحٍ ، عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي طَلْحَةَ ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ ، " قَوْلُهُ : إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ سورة آل عمران آية 55 , يقول : " إِنِّي مُمِيتُكَ "

(Tafsir Ibn Abi Hatim)

So if "Inni Mutawaffeeka" means "Inni Mumeetuka" then it stands to reason that "Falamma Tawaffaytanee" means "Falamma Tamaytanee"

فلما تميتني "When you caused me to die"

And this meaning is established from the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم himself:

فَأَقُولُ كَمَا قَالَ الْعَبْدُ الصَّالِحُ ‏{‏وَكُنْتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا مَا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنْتَ أَنْتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ‏}
 I will say as the pious slave (the Prophet (ﷺ) Jesus) said: And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them. When You caused me to die, You were the Watcher over them and You are a Witness to all things.' (5.117)
(Sahih al-Bukhari)

So on Judgment Day, our Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم will say the exact words of Jesus as quoted in Sura 5:117. If in Sura 5:117 Falamma Tawaffaytanee means Allah raised Jesus to himself in body, then it has to mean the same thing for Prophet Muhammad, i.e., he too was raised to Heaven in his body and didn't die. But the fact that our Prophet died and his body was not raised into Heaven clarifies the meaning of Falamma Tawaffaytanee as Falamma Tamaytanee

See my blog for dozens of proofs that Jesus is dead.
http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/p/death-of-jesus.html
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Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2017, 09:59:40 AM »
The arguments put forward by those who say Jesus is alive are extremely weak and easily repudiated. First of all, it is established from Ibn Abbas (R.A)

حَدَّثَنَا حَدَّثَنَا أَبِي ، ثنا أَبُو صَالِحٍ ، حَدَّثَنِي مُعَاوِيَةُ بْنُ صَالِحٍ ، عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي طَلْحَةَ ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ ، " قَوْلُهُ : إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ سورة آل عمران آية 55 , يقول : " إِنِّي مُمِيتُكَ "

(Tafsir Ibn Abi Hatim)

So if "Inni Mutawaffeeka" means "Inni Mumeetuka" then it stands to reason that "Falamma Tawaffaytanee" means "Falamma Tamaytanee"

فلما تميتني "When you caused me to die"

And this meaning is established from the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم himself:

فَأَقُولُ كَمَا قَالَ الْعَبْدُ الصَّالِحُ ‏{‏وَكُنْتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا مَا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنْتَ أَنْتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ‏}
 I will say as the pious slave (the Prophet (ﷺ) Jesus) said: And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them. When You caused me to die, You were the Watcher over them and You are a Witness to all things.' (5.117)
(Sahih al-Bukhari)

So on Judgment Day, our Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم will say the exact words of Jesus as quoted in Sura 5:117. If in Sura 5:117 Falamma Tawaffaytanee means Allah raised Jesus to himself in body, then it has to mean the same thing for Prophet Muhammad, i.e., he too was raised to Heaven in his body and didn't die. But the fact that our Prophet died and his body was not raised into Heaven clarifies the meaning of Falamma Tawaffaytanee as Falamma Tamaytanee

See my blog for dozens of proofs that Jesus is dead.
http://islamsalvationfromhell.blogspot.ca/p/death-of-jesus.html

This is the response you will find in one of the link I gave.

Ibn Abbas's (RA) view on Mutawaffeeka:

Now coming to the view of the pious Companion Ibn Abbas, we see that many people often quote a saying of him to confuse the whole case. It is quoted in Sahih Bukhari without any chain,

وَقَالَ ابْنُ عَبَّاسٍ { مُتَوَفِّيكَ } مُمِيتُكَ

Ibn Abbas (RA) said: "Mutawaffeeka is 'I'll cause you to die.'" (Sahih Bukhari 14/149)

The complete narration along with chain is found in Ibn kathir 2/47, Al-Tabari 6/457, Ibn Abi Hatim 3/14 Hadith 3630.

But we ought to consider other narrations of Ibn Abbas (RA) to understand his actual position on this issue. The following one clarifies his stand point;

عن ابن عباس في قوله { إني متوفيك ورافعك } يعني رافعك ثم متوفيك في آخر الزمان

Narrated Az-Zahaak from Ibn Abbas that the verse 'Inni Mutawaffeka wa rafiuka' means: "I will raise you to myself then I'll cause you to die near the End of Times." (Durr Al-Manthur 2/347)

It is enough to show that even according to Ibn Abbas' (RA) view Jesus (PBUH) is alive yet and the verse to him refers only to his death in the End of Times after his descent.

One may say how can the order be changed i.e. how can rafa (raising) precede tawaffa (death as per Ibn Abbas' view) while it is mentioned later according to the make up of the sentence. This is no problem as it’s common in Quran that something mentioned later in the sentence precedes what's mentioned before it. A perfect example is Quran 3:110.

كُنْتُمْ خَيْرَ أُمَّةٍ أُخْرِجَتْ لِلنَّاسِ تَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَتَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ وَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ

"You are the best of the nations raised up for (the benefit of) men; you enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and believe in Allah."

One can see that belief in Allah comes first but its mentioned after the mention of enjoining what is right and forbidding the wrong.

Ibn Abbas (RA) believed in the physical ascension of Prophet Jesus (PBUH). This fact also refutes any notion of attributing Jesus' (PBUH) death to him.

عن ابن عباس قال: لما أراد الله أن يرفع عيسى إلى السماء خرج على أصحابه ...ورفع عيسى من رَوْزَنَة في البيت إلى السماء

Ibn Abbas said, "When Allah intended to raise Jesus (PBUH) to the heavens, he went to his companions,...Jesus (PBUH) ascended to heaven through an opening in the top of the house."
(Ibn Abi Hatim 4/431 Hadith 6266, Ibn Kathir 2/449. Ibn Kathir called it Sahih)

This detail is enough to maintain that even the opinion of Ibn Abbas (RA) in essence goes with the established opinion of other Sahaba and later Muslim generations.

And it'll be nothing less than sham and hypocrisy to take one narration of a person and reject the other for no reason.

http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2010/02/jesus-did-not-die-according-to-quran.html

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2017, 10:49:54 AM »
I understand the position of Ibn Abbas regarding Taqdim and Ta'khir in this Verse. However, we are not citing Ibn Abbas's overall opinion regarding the issue of life and death of Jesus, but specifically his translation of the word "Mutawaffeeka" as meaning "Mumeetuka", because this same word is used in 5:117 "Falamma Tawaffaytanee", which then has to mean "Falamma Tamaytanee". It is a matter of principle and in order to be consistent that if Tawaffaa as used in 3:55 means death than the same word as used in 5:117 has to mean death also. And an ever stronger evidence than this is the fact that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) himself quoted 5:117 "Falamma Tawaffaytanee" and explained it by giving his own example that he will say these words on Judgment Day. So not only will Jesus say "Falamma Tawaffaytanee" but even Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم will say "Falamma Tawaffaytanee" (Bukhari)

Unless you want to say that Prophet Muhammad was physically and bodily raised into the sky without experiencing death, you have no choice but to admit that "Falamma Tawaffaytanee" means "When you caused me to die"

In fact, you will never find an example from the Holy Qur'an where

فاعل = الله

مفعول = رجلٌ

فعل = توفّى

except that the meaning is Death

Another strong evidence from the Holy Qur'an

مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلَّا رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ ۖ كَانَا يَأْكُلَانِ الطَّعَامَ

"The Messiah son of Mary was a Messenger. All the Messenger died before him. His Mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food" (5:75)

Kaana is فعل ماذ
Ya'kulaan is verb in dual form

meaning both Jesus and his mother used to, in the past, eat food, and they no longer do so, because obviously both are dead. Otherwise if you say Jesus is alive, then Mariam has to be alive too. It is inconsistent to say one is alive and the other is deceased when the Holy Quran says they both (in the past) used to eat food.

Then the phrase قد خلت من قبله الرسل "all the Messengers before Jesus died" with Rusul prefixed with Lam at-Tarif (definite article "Al") indicating all the Messengers from before Jesus. Practically, there is no dispute that all the Messengers before Jesus died. But the exact same wording is in 3:144 except it is in relation to Muhammad (SAW): "all the Messengers before Muhammad died". So you have to be consistent between 5:75 and 3:144

It is written: خَلَا فلانٌ : إذَ مات "Khalaa someone....it means he died" (Taj al Urus; v.38 p.11)

So when Khalat is used in conjunction with a human being, omitting a specific place, it means death. And this is common in most languages. For example if I say "John has passed on" omitting the place to where John passed to, then it is assumed that I mean John has died.
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ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2017, 10:57:29 AM »
Another proof that Jesus has died is the Verse of the Holy Qur'an:

وَالَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّـهِ لَا يَخْلُقُونَ شَيْئًا وَهُمْ يُخْلَقُونَ ﴿٢٠﴾ أَمْوَاتٌ غَيْرُ أَحْيَاءٍ ۖ وَمَا يَشْعُرُونَ أَيَّانَ يُبْعَثُونَ
Those whom they invoke besides Allah have not created anything, but are themselves created. (20) (They are) dead, lifeless, and they know not when they will be raised up. (Sura 16:20-21)

Incidentally, after Allah, Jesus is the person who is most invoked as an object of worship, since Christianity is the most widespread religion in the Earth. And Jesus is included in the category of "Min Dooni Allah" (Sura 5:116). So Allah says those that are invoked besides Him are Amwaat "Dead" Ghayru Ahyaa'in "Lifeless"

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Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2017, 11:08:32 AM »
Ahmadi Claim: Tawafee has Always been used to mean Death in the Qur'an. They usually provide a list of 20 or 21 examples where it is used to mean Death.;

Muslim Response: No, Tawafee never means death, literally. Tawafee means "take completely". Below is a detailed response:

When someone says "I will crush you in basketball", that means that person is going to beat them in the game of basketball. Now, consider if someone said "I am going to crush this can", that carries the literal meaning of "expending energy to reduce volume". Likewise, the meaning of "tawafee" is "take completely, but when Allah takes someone, it generally means they are going to die.

Examples where it does NOT mean death. This forum can't do Unicode, so I'll paste the transliteration. Also, I will rely ONLY on Ahmadi translations of the Qur'an.

------------------------

Surah Zumar, Verse 42 (43)

Allah takes away the souls of men at the time of their death; and of those also that are not yet dead, during their sleep. Then He withholds those against which He has decreed death, and sends back the others till an appointed term. In that, surely, are Signs for a people who reflect.

Transliteration: Allahu yatawaffa al-anfusa heena mawtiha waallatee lam tamut fee manamiha fayumsiku allatee qada AAalayha almawta wayursilu al-okhra ila ajalin musamman inna fee thalika laayatin liqawmin yatafakkaroona

Allahu (Allah does)
yatawaffa (Takes)
al-anfusa (souls)
heena (when)
mawtiha (Her death)
wa (and)
allatee (those/which)
lam (do not)
tamut (was)
fee (in)
manamiha (her sleep)

The word Tawaffa is used to mean "take" here, even according to the Ahmadi translation. If it meant death, then the translation would be:
"Allah is the one who causes the souls to die at the time of their death, and those souls when they sleep"
A) This would create an awkward redundancy (Cause to die at the time of their death? When else do you die?)
B) People don't die when they sleep

This is an example of the same word used once, used in two different ways. This shows that its actual meaning is "take", not "death".

------------------------

Surah Nisaa, Verse 15 (16)

Ahmadi Translation: And such of your women who are guilty of any flagrant impropriety - call to witness four of you against them; and if they bear witness, then confine them to the houses until death overtakes them or Allah opens for them some other way.

Transliteration: Waallatee ya/teena alfahishata min nisa-ikum faistashhidoo AAalayhinna arbaAAatan minkum fa-in shahidoo faamsikoohunna fee albuyooti hatta yatawaffahunna almawtu aw yajAAala Allahu lahunna sabeelan

Quick Arabic grammar lesson: When you have a Dhamma (wideways nine) atop the last letter of a noun, it usually means that the noun is the "Do'er" of the action. In Arabic, its called a Faa'il.

Yatawaffa-hunna are actually two words
Yatawaffa - takes
-hunna - those women
al-Mawtu - The death (notice how its Mawtu, with the Dhamma at the end, meaning its the actor)

So, Death TAKES those women. Had Tawafee meant "death" always, Allah would have placed two words which have the exact same meaning right next to each other: al-Mawtu and Tawafee. This is even how the Ahmadi translation understands it. It wouldn't make sense any other way.

------------------------------------

The root word of Tawafee is Wafaa. How is that used in the Qur'an? Chapter 83, Verse 2 (3)

Ahmadi Translation: Woe unto those who give short measure;
There's a bit of a problem here, cuz the Ahmadis translated the meaning (the gist of it), but not the actual words. I'll use this anyways

Transliteration: Allatheena itha iktaloo AAala alnnasi yastawfoona

The last word is Yastawfoon literally meaning "those who take completely". We can see here that the root word of Tawafee, Wafaa, means "take completely"

--------------------------------
Surah Baqarah, Verse 40 (41)

Ahmadi Translation: O Children of Israel! remember My favours which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me, I will fulfil My covenant with you, and Me alone should you fear.
Transliteration: Ya banee isra-eela othkuroo niAAmatiya allatee anAAamtu AAalaykum waawfoo biAAahdee oofi biAAahdikum wa-iyyaya fairhabooni

Wa - and
awfoo - Command form of "take". In context, its translated as "fulfill". As in, its a command from Allah to fulfill the covenant.
bi-AAahdee - My covenant
oofi - Take, in context it means "fulfill".
bi-AAahdikum - My covenant with you

We can see here that the root word of Tawafee, Wafaa, also means "take completely".

------------------

Conclusion: The actual meaning of "Tawafee" is not "Death". It's "take completely". Just as the crush example above, it can be translated in context to mean "Death", but that isn't its actual meaning. Interestingly, go back and look at the instances where the Ahmadis claim it means "Death" and replace "Death" with "Take". Sometimes, just based on the structure of the Arabic sentence, it would not even make sense for it to say "Death". The translators translated the "gist of the meaning", not the actual word-for-word translation.

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2017, 11:18:48 AM »
I agree that the word Tawafee by itself doesn't mean death, though in many instances it means death Majaazan. But our point is that Tawafee when used in conjunction with human being can mean either death or sleep. It never means taking the entire person in his or her body. There isn't a single example you could point to where Tawafee, when used in conjunction with a human being, means the human being was taken completely in his or her body. Either it will mean death or sleep. So this Verse:

اللَّـهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا ۖ فَيُمْسِكُ الَّتِي قَضَىٰ عَلَيْهَا الْمَوْتَ وَيُرْسِلُ الْأُخْرَىٰ إِلَىٰ أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى

ِAllah is the One Who takes [YATAWAFFAA] the Souls during its death and that which dies not during its sleep. So He withholds the one upon which is the decree of death and sends back the other until a term appointed. (39:42)

This Verse establishes the principle that whenever Allah does Tawafee of a human being it can only be one of two things: 1. He takes away the soul permanently causing death, 2. He takes away the soul temporarily causing sleep.

There is no third example of Allah taking away the entire body up into the sky. These are the only two possibilities.

Now if you say that Allah didn't cause Jesus to die, but instead Allah took Jesus in his sleep, it means Allah took Jesus's soul temporarily, while his body is sleeping somewhere in the Earth. That is because during sleep, as is self-evident, Allah only takes the soul while the body remains lying on the bed snoring away. No one says that when you fall asleep Allah takes up the body completely into the sky. So you have no choice but to say that either Allah caused Jesus to die, or He caused Jesus to fall asleep, but the latter would mean Jesus's body is lying somewhere snoring away on the Earth, while his soul has been taken away for two millennia. That itself is absurd. The only rational thing to believe is that Jesus died and Allah took his soul away
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zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2017, 11:22:40 AM »
Would it not make more sense to have these discussions on an sunni vs ahmediyya forum?

Not sure if a sunni vs shia forum is the right place.

ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2017, 11:24:32 AM »
Would it not make more sense to have these discussions on an sunni vs ahmediyya forum?

Not sure if a sunni vs shia forum is the right place.

I am not an Ahmadi, and Ahmadis aren't the only ones who believe in that Jesus is deceased. Many Muslims of various persuasions believe in it. So it is not an issue that is exclusive to Ahmadiyya. And the reason we are discussing it is because it is relevant to the issue of Ghayba if you care to read my OP
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ZulFiqar

Re: Challenge to Sunnis: Ghayba of Ibn Mariam عليهما السلام
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2017, 11:29:37 AM »
Here is another point that is worthy of consideration. That is regarding upon whom the onus is to prove whether Jesus is alive or deceased. As you know, the principle in these matters is that the burden of proof is always on the person who makes an extraordinary claim. The belief that Jesus was raised physically in his body up into the sky, where he has been residing for the last 2000 years, is surely an extraordinary if not supernatural claim. Our belief that Jesus died in his own time just like every other Prophet, being a human being, is by no means an extraordinary or strange claim. So even if there was no explicit evidence in the Qur'an that Jesus has died, it doesn't necessitate that he is alive. For example, there is no explicit mention of that fact that the Prophet Shu'aib died, or the Prophet Alyasa died, and many others. Yet we as Muslims all assume that these Prophets have died because that is the natural course of things. Now despite this being the principle, there are in fact some 30 Verses in the Quran which either explicitly or implicitly prove that Jesus has died, yet strangely enough so many Muslims insist that he is alive.

So going by this principle I appeal to those who believe Jesus is alive to bring a single Verse from the Holy Qur'an which is unambiguous and explicit in proving that Jesus is physically alive in the sky for the past 2000 years.
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