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Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah

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iceman

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2018, 12:40:16 PM »
Got your stupid smileys out of the way, you 12 year old girl?

I have a better scenario for you to ponder over.  Assuming the Prophet (saw) appointed a leader after him, someone actually ordained by Allah (swt), but two of them shun responsibility.  One gives bayyah to Abu Bakr (ra), another gives his "Divinely Ordained" right to Muawiya and a 12th one that has completely ran off into hiding, absolving himself from all responsibilities?  Would you stand by such "appointed" leaders?  They behaved like anything but "appointed".

Having said that, I can see how Saqifa has deeply scarred you for life.

If three fallible individuals (ra) can coerce an entire nation, and in the process also subdue three living "infallible" Imams (ra), then they must be some men of valor who deserve the utmost respect and support.  Add to this the fact that their action have inflicted lifelong wounds upon imbeciles like you and it is twice the barakah.

"Got your stupid smileys out of the way, you 12 year old girl?"

12 year old girl? You've got me confused with MYTHBUSTER 😊

"Having said that, I can see how Saqifa has deeply scarred you for life"

Not me. Oh not at all. It's actually scarred Islam as well as the Muslim Ummah 😊 It can be clearly seen. But you're too blinded by Saqifa to realise that.

"If three fallible individuals (ra) can coerce an entire nation, and in the process also subdue three living "infallible" Imams (ra), then they must be some men of valor who deserve the utmost respect and support"

Well if you've got the connection, influence, support and backup then you are going to use it to your advantage. You ain't going to care what the Prophet s.a.w wants and advises. You're going to say "well the book of Allah is enough for us, so we don't care about anything else".

Muawiyah at Safeen and Aisha at Jamal did a lot better than those three wouldn’t you think. How many lives do you think were lost because they decided to revolt?

"Add to this the fact that their action have inflicted lifelong wounds upon imbeciles like you and it is twice the barakah"
Inflicted lifelong wounds on Islam and the Muslims, not on me. Oh not at all.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2018, 12:48:44 PM »
"but he was informed that the one whom he wanted to appoint, would eventually be appointed by the believers"

Are you serious. He wasn't appointed by the believers because all the believers were busy mourning the Prophet s.a.w and with his funeral arrangements.

Keep your half-baked and twisted stories in your pocket.

The believers eventually accepted his appointment.

حدثنا أبو حفص عمر بن أيوب السقطي ، قال : حدثنا محمد بن معاوية بن مالج ، قال : حدثنا علي بن هاشم ، عن أبيه ، عن أبي الجحاف ، قال : قام أبو بكر رضي الله عنه بعدما بويع له وبايع له علي رضي الله عنه وأصحابه قام ثلاثا ، يقول : ” أيها الناس ، قد أقلتكم بيعتكم هل من كاره ؟ قال : فيقوم علي رضي الله عنه أوائل الناس يقول : ” لا والله لا نقيلك ، ولا نستقيلك قدمك رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ، فمن ذا الذي يؤخرك ” .

[abu Hafs `Umar bin Ayyub al-Siqati told us, Muhammad bin Mu`awiyah bin Malaj said, `Ali bin Hisham told us, from his father, from abu al-Jahhaf that he said:
Abu Bakr (ra) stood up three times after he received Bay`ah from `Ali (ra) and his companions, saying: “O people, I shall return your Bay`ah to you, does anyone dislike this?” he said: So `Ali (ra) would stand among the first of them and say: “No by Allah we shall not let you retire, if the messenger of Allah (SAWS) placed you ahead (means leading Salat), then who can put you behind.”] ( al-Shari`ah lil-Aajurri (b.280 – d.360 AH).]

أَخْبَرَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ الْقَطِيعِيُّ، ثنا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ حَنْبَلٍ، حَدَّثَنِي أَبِي، وَأَحْمَدُ بْنُ مَنِيعٍ، قَالا: ثنا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ عَيَّاشٍ، ثنا عَاصِمٌ، عَنْ زِرٍّ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، قَالَ: ” مَا رَأَى الْمُسْلِمُونَ حَسَنًا فَهُوَ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ حَسَنٌ، وَمَا رَآهُ الْمُسْلِمُونَ سَيِّئًا فَهُوَ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ سَيِّءٌ، وَقَدْ رَأَى الصَّحَابَةُ جَمِيعًا أَنْ يَسْتَخْلِفُوا أَبَا بَكْرٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ

Abdullah ibn Masood(RA) said: “What the Muslims saw as good was good for Allah, and what the Muslims saw as bad was bad for Allah, and all the companions saw that they should make Abu Bakr the successor.”[Mustadrak al-Hakim vol 3, page 78-79].

Similarly we read:

حدثني أبو محمد جعفر بن حميد الكوفي أخو أحمد بن حميد يلقب بدار بأم سلمة ، حدثني يونس بن أبي يعفور ، عن أبيه ، عن الأسود بن قيس العبدي ، عن أبيه ، قال : ” شهدت خطبة علي يوم البصرة قال : فحمد الله وأثنى عليه وذكر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وما عالج من الناس ثم قبضه الله عز وجل إليه ثم رأى المسلمون أن يستخلفوا أبا بكر رضي الله عنه فبايعوا وعاهدوا وسلموا ، وبايعت وعاهدت وسلمت ، ورضوا ورضيت ، وفعل من الخير وجاهد حتى قبضه الله عز وجل ، رحمة الله عليه

Narrated Qays bin al Abdi: I Witnessed the Sermon of Ali on the Day of Basarah, he said: ” He praised Allah and thanked him and he mentioned the Prophet(SAWS) and his sacrifice to the people, then Allah(SWT) took his soul, Then the Muslims saw that they should give the Caliphate to Abu bakr(RA) so they pledged their allegiance and made their promise of loyalty, and I gave my pledge and I promised him my loyalty, They were pleased and so was I. He(Abu Bakr) did good deeds and made Jihad until Allah took his soul may Allah have mercy on him.” [ Al Sunnah by Abdullah bin Ahmad vol 2, page 563, #1208  ; The Narrators are all trustworthy.]

We even read in Nahjul Balagha:

Ali(ra) wrote in his letter stating:
إنه بايعني القوم الذين بايعوا أبا بكر وعمر وعثمان ، على ما بايعوهم عليه ، فلم يكن للشاهد أن يختار ولا للغائب أن يرد ، وإنما الشورى للمهاجرين والأنصار ، فإن اجتمعوا على رجل وسموه إماماً كان ذلك لله رضى فإن خرج منهم خارج بطعن أو بدعة ردوه إلى ماخرج منه فإن أبى قاتلوه على اتباعه غير سبيل المؤمنين ، وولاه الله ما تولى
Verily, the people who payed allegience to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, have payed allegience to me based on the same principles as the allegience to them. So anyone who was present has no right to go against his pledge of allegience, and anyone who was absent has no right to oppose it. And verily shura (consultation) is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar. So if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam, then it is with the pleasure of Allah. If anyone goes against this decision, then he must be persuaded to follow the rest of the people. If he persists, then fight with him for leaving that which has been accepted by the believers. And Allah shall let him wander misguided and not guide him. (Nahjul-Balaghah, Letter #6)


"but he was informed"

Informed by whom? 😊
By whom is a prophet informed about the future?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2018, 01:31:12 PM »
As for Abu Hanifa & Shafi being spiritual leaders... can you quote any verse from Quran or give any hadith stating that there can exist Spiritual Leaders? Aren't Abu Hanifa & Shafi, etc Ulemas? Isn't Imam/Caliph a political leader and Ulemas spiritual leaders or are the words "Imam" and "Ulema" also interchangeable?
Try figuring out the answers for these questions about Shia's Imam Khomeini, which you tried to dodge. Since you are here for argumentation. you can't ask us to educate you for your ignoramus arguments while you think they are reasonable.

About person leading prayer in congregation then Yes he is called Imam but I am talking about Imams mentioned in Quran and hadiths in the context of ruler.
So why did you bring the example of Imam Abu Hanifa(rah) and Imam Shafai(rah) ? DOn't you even know the basics that they weren't rulers? Don't you realize that you have started making contradictory claims out of confusion.


Clearly define to me what do you understand by "divine appointment" because according to my understanding divine appointment means "to be appointed by GOD."

Khulafa means successors. According to the verse you quoted it can be clearly seen that Disbelievers (i.e. People of Hud a.s) were Khulafa of Disbelievers (i.e. People of Noah a.s)
Mr. Confused so do you believe that disbelievers were too appointed divinely by Allah as Khulafa of Disbelievers? Because you say that divine appointment according to you means, to be appointed by God. Remember you have used the example of Adam(as), in response I used the above verse. So please distinguish between the two appointments.

As for Sunni view then, by divine appointment we mean that Allah(swt) communicates in a higher level with a person either directly or through a messenger and then commands him to guide people.


What we shias are saying is that only Masum (i.e. Imam a.s) can be Khalifa or Masum (Prophet a.s)
Your concept is corrupt and baseless. Most of Shia companions/narrators of Imams didn't believe Imams to be infallible either.

Shia Allama Majlisi quotes Shaheed al thani  as saying:

جمعى از راويان كه در اعصار ايمه بوده‏اند از شيعيان اعتقاد بعصمت ايشان نداشته‏اند بلكه ايشان را از علماى نيكوكار ميدانسته‏اند چنانچه از رجال كشى ظاهر ميشود و مع ذلك ايمه (ع) حكم بايمان بلكه بعدالت ايشان ميكرده‏اند
Most of the Shia narrators around the Imams didn’t believe in their infallibility but considered them pious scholars only, as is clear from Rijal Kashi, and still the Imams would declare them faithful and even trustworthy. [Haqqul Yaqin, p. 544]

Secondly be clear in your statement. Say Khalifa of believers. Because disbelievers have different Khulafa. 


How can GOD appoint dead people as Imams? I thought only living people were appointed as Imams. Can you enlighten me as to how did Pharoah become leader inviting people to Hell-fire after his death?
You are not here to learn from us isn't it. You are here to argue. So you behave arrogantly at one place and ask to be enlightened too.

As for the main question then its invalid because you seems to have missed the point which I was making. I was using these verses to prove that its not appointment rather its Qadr of Allah. I used these to refute your misunderstanding since you brought up the example of Adam(as), hence I responded accordingly. If you still dont get, read my previous response again.


If by the words "Khalifa tul Ardh" non-Masum humans are meant then as can be seen from the verse that Angels prediction about non-Masum humans came to be true because non-Masum Kings/Leaders did do mischief on earth and shed blood. So how do you interpret the verse quoted by you i.e. why did GOD prefer non-Masum Humans over Masum Angels?
Its not about Masum or Ghayr Masoom, but rather about a creation having free will. Angels had experience regarding the Jinns who were inhabiting earth and had a free will.

So you mean Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) and Imams from his (a.s) progeny were spiritual leaders and not political leaders? So following you logic can Ahlul Sunnah apply this concept to our 12 Imams i.e. they are spiritual leaders like Nabi Ibrahim (a.s)?
Yes with a exception, that they weren't divinely appointed and being spiritual Imams isnt restricted to them, it includes all the other spiritual Imams as well, example Abu Bakr(ra), Umar(ra), Uthman(ra), ABu Hanifa(ra), Shafaei(ra). 

Note that: This even has the exception for Ali(ra), Hassan(ra) , who were political rulers too.


Why did GOD knowing beforehand that a person would become oppressive and tyrant ruler give him rulership? GOD could have given rulership to Prophet instead of that oppressive and tyrant person. Following muslim720 logic of blaming Imam Hassan (a.s) for Muawiya's actions (during rulership) by giving latter the rulership can GOD be blamed (GOD Forbid) for the actions of oppressive and tyrant king as it was GOD who had given that person rulership in the first place?
Its Shia hadeeth, so you need to answer it, instead of asking me.

Mythbuster1

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2018, 01:32:44 PM »
"Got your stupid smileys out of the way, you 12 year old girl?"

12 year old girl? You've got me confused with MYTHBUSTER 😊

"Having said that, I can see how Saqifa has deeply scarred you for life"

Not me. Oh not at all. It's actually scarred Islam as well as the Muslim Ummah 😊 It can be clearly seen. But you're too blinded by Saqifa to realise that.

"If three fallible individuals (ra) can coerce an entire nation, and in the process also subdue three living "infallible" Imams (ra), then they must be some men of valor who deserve the utmost respect and support"

Well if you've got the connection, influence, support and backup then you are going to use it to your advantage. You ain't going to care what the Prophet s.a.w wants and advises. You're going to say "well the book of Allah is enough for us, so we don't care about anything else".

Muawiyah at Safeen and Aisha at Jamal did a lot better than those three wouldn’t you think. How many lives do you think were lost because they decided to revolt?

"Add to this the fact that their action have inflicted lifelong wounds upon imbeciles like you and it is twice the barakah"
Inflicted lifelong wounds on Islam and the Muslims, not on me. Oh not at all.

Lol speaks the lying turd who accuses people and passes judgements on people.


saqifa has messed up your braincells that much, even the most stupid idea of promotions after prophethood has rendered you brain dead........you can’t even answer your own made up theory, even a 12 year old Sunni would laugh at you.
One prophet gets it
Last prophet saw NEVER mentions it or recieves it
Non prophet recieve it at birth

Thinking bad about saqifa has had a bad effect on your braincells as can be seen.

You are scarred ......IT SHOWS, you keep bringing it up but you keep getting REFUTED.

This numpty believes Abu Bakr ra was rich and powerful and had plenty of support to take away khilafah😂😂😂😂😂😂
You are rendering islam as WEAK lol
Only in your mind!!
The imams had the chance to rectify it......yet they didn’t all 12 including the hidden one didn’t, you are rendering them WEAK also.

Your sect your arguments are weak with no strong evidence from the Quran........SAQIFA HAS MADE DIVINE IMAMATE REDUNDANT, that’s why you haven’t a counter argument with facts or evidences instead you come with ideas and notions that sound stupid and don’t even make sense like being promoted after prophethood.

Your dumb mind doesn’t connect the dots instead it’s built on HATE and HERESAY so you make your own dots to connect and come up with nonsensical theories based on hate and lies.

Well that’s shiism for you.😜

Mythbuster1

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2018, 01:40:27 PM »
Keep your half-baked and twisted stories in your pocket.

The believers eventually accepted his appointment.

حدثنا أبو حفص عمر بن أيوب السقطي ، قال : حدثنا محمد بن معاوية بن مالج ، قال : حدثنا علي بن هاشم ، عن أبيه ، عن أبي الجحاف ، قال : قام أبو بكر رضي الله عنه بعدما بويع له وبايع له علي رضي الله عنه وأصحابه قام ثلاثا ، يقول : ” أيها الناس ، قد أقلتكم بيعتكم هل من كاره ؟ قال : فيقوم علي رضي الله عنه أوائل الناس يقول : ” لا والله لا نقيلك ، ولا نستقيلك قدمك رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ، فمن ذا الذي يؤخرك ” .

[abu Hafs `Umar bin Ayyub al-Siqati told us, Muhammad bin Mu`awiyah bin Malaj said, `Ali bin Hisham told us, from his father, from abu al-Jahhaf that he said:
Abu Bakr (ra) stood up three times after he received Bay`ah from `Ali (ra) and his companions, saying: “O people, I shall return your Bay`ah to you, does anyone dislike this?” he said: So `Ali (ra) would stand among the first of them and say: “No by Allah we shall not let you retire, if the messenger of Allah (SAWS) placed you ahead (means leading Salat), then who can put you behind.”] ( al-Shari`ah lil-Aajurri (b.280 – d.360 AH).]

أَخْبَرَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ الْقَطِيعِيُّ، ثنا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ حَنْبَلٍ، حَدَّثَنِي أَبِي، وَأَحْمَدُ بْنُ مَنِيعٍ، قَالا: ثنا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ عَيَّاشٍ، ثنا عَاصِمٌ، عَنْ زِرٍّ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، قَالَ: ” مَا رَأَى الْمُسْلِمُونَ حَسَنًا فَهُوَ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ حَسَنٌ، وَمَا رَآهُ الْمُسْلِمُونَ سَيِّئًا فَهُوَ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ سَيِّءٌ، وَقَدْ رَأَى الصَّحَابَةُ جَمِيعًا أَنْ يَسْتَخْلِفُوا أَبَا بَكْرٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ

Abdullah ibn Masood(RA) said: “What the Muslims saw as good was good for Allah, and what the Muslims saw as bad was bad for Allah, and all the companions saw that they should make Abu Bakr the successor.”[Mustadrak al-Hakim vol 3, page 78-79].

Similarly we read:

حدثني أبو محمد جعفر بن حميد الكوفي أخو أحمد بن حميد يلقب بدار بأم سلمة ، حدثني يونس بن أبي يعفور ، عن أبيه ، عن الأسود بن قيس العبدي ، عن أبيه ، قال : ” شهدت خطبة علي يوم البصرة قال : فحمد الله وأثنى عليه وذكر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وما عالج من الناس ثم قبضه الله عز وجل إليه ثم رأى المسلمون أن يستخلفوا أبا بكر رضي الله عنه فبايعوا وعاهدوا وسلموا ، وبايعت وعاهدت وسلمت ، ورضوا ورضيت ، وفعل من الخير وجاهد حتى قبضه الله عز وجل ، رحمة الله عليه

Narrated Qays bin al Abdi: I Witnessed the Sermon of Ali on the Day of Basarah, he said: ” He praised Allah and thanked him and he mentioned the Prophet(SAWS) and his sacrifice to the people, then Allah(SWT) took his soul, Then the Muslims saw that they should give the Caliphate to Abu bakr(RA) so they pledged their allegiance and made their promise of loyalty, and I gave my pledge and I promised him my loyalty, They were pleased and so was I. He(Abu Bakr) did good deeds and made Jihad until Allah took his soul may Allah have mercy on him.” [ Al Sunnah by Abdullah bin Ahmad vol 2, page 563, #1208  ; The Narrators are all trustworthy.]

We even read in Nahjul Balagha:

Ali(ra) wrote in his letter stating:
إنه بايعني القوم الذين بايعوا أبا بكر وعمر وعثمان ، على ما بايعوهم عليه ، فلم يكن للشاهد أن يختار ولا للغائب أن يرد ، وإنما الشورى للمهاجرين والأنصار ، فإن اجتمعوا على رجل وسموه إماماً كان ذلك لله رضى فإن خرج منهم خارج بطعن أو بدعة ردوه إلى ماخرج منه فإن أبى قاتلوه على اتباعه غير سبيل المؤمنين ، وولاه الله ما تولى
Verily, the people who payed allegience to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, have payed allegience to me based on the same principles as the allegience to them. So anyone who was present has no right to go against his pledge of allegience, and anyone who was absent has no right to oppose it. And verily shura (consultation) is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar. So if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam, then it is with the pleasure of Allah. If anyone goes against this decision, then he must be persuaded to follow the rest of the people. If he persists, then fight with him for leaving that which has been accepted by the believers. And Allah shall let him wander misguided and not guide him. (Nahjul-Balaghah, Letter #6)

By whom is a prophet informed about the future?

The believers accepted Alhamdulillah yet to this day the non believers still haven’t accepted.😉👍

iceman

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2018, 01:55:58 PM »
Lol speaks the lying turd who accuses people and passes judgements on people.


saqifa has messed up your braincells that much, even the most stupid idea of promotions after prophethood has rendered you brain dead........you can’t even answer your own made up theory, even a 12 year old Sunni would laugh at you.
One prophet gets it
Last prophet saw NEVER mentions it or recieves it
Non prophet recieve it at birth

Thinking bad about saqifa has had a bad effect on your braincells as can be seen.

You are scarred ......IT SHOWS, you keep bringing it up but you keep getting REFUTED.

This numpty believes Abu Bakr ra was rich and powerful and had plenty of support to take away khilafah😂😂😂😂😂😂
You are rendering islam as WEAK lol
Only in your mind!!
The imams had the chance to rectify it......yet they didn’t all 12 including the hidden one didn’t, you are rendering them WEAK also.

Your sect your arguments are weak with no strong evidence from the Quran........SAQIFA HAS MADE DIVINE IMAMATE REDUNDANT, that’s why you haven’t a counter argument with facts or evidences instead you come with ideas and notions that sound stupid and don’t even make sense like being promoted after prophethood.

Your dumb mind doesn’t connect the dots instead it’s built on HATE and HERESAY so you make your own dots to connect and come up with nonsensical theories based on hate and lies.

Well that’s shiism for you.😜

"saqifa has messed up your braincells"

Nope. Not at all. 😊 It's messed up Islam and the Muslims.

"even the most stupid idea of promotions after prophethood has rendered you brain dead......"

That's exactly what the Qur'an says. If you think it's the most stupid idea then take it up with God when you see him.

"you can’t even answer your own made up theory"

Answered it MANY TIMES OVER. You just don't want to accept it. Your arrogance is stepping in the way.

"even a 12 year old Sunni would laugh at you"

Laugh, well that's all you've been doing. That's what Sunnis do, have a laugh. 😊

"One prophet gets it
Last prophet saw NEVER mentions it or recieves it
Non prophet recieve it at birth"

Steady on there. One step at a time my dear. Allah gave the example of Abraham. You don't want to accept it then that's down to you. Don't look for excuses. The last Prophet saw mentioned it. It's in your books. Most of your books. And Allah decides who he honours, how and when. Any problems then take it up with him.

"Thinking bad about saqifa has had a bad effect on your braincells as can be seen"

I don't think bad about anything or anyone. Tell me what's right about Saqifa? 😊

"You are scarred ......IT SHOWS, you keep bringing it up but you keep getting REFUTED"

I'm not scared. Otherwise I wouldn't be here. There's nothing to be scared about here. Refuted? Your arrogance over a matter is no refute.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2018, 02:56:48 PM »
If your understanding is to be taken then I want to know why would GOD protect good ruler from evil advisors but not from the ruler's own incorrect judgments/decisions? If evil advisors were to give good ruler some suggestions regarding decisions/judgments to make regarding some matter then GOD would protected good ruler from acting on those suggestions but on the other hand if evil advisors had not given suggestions to good ruler and good ruler acted on his own behalf and gave judgments/decisions (which were same as evil advisors had suggested) then GOD would not had protected good ruler as such judgments and decisions were to be counted as mistakes of good ruler?
None of these questions refute the explanation given for the hadeeth. Hence I won’t waste time answering them.


Did Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman act on all the advises given by Imam Ali (a.s)?
I don’t want to make any sarcastic comment. But please re-read and try to first understand the hadeeth you yourself were quoting. The hadeeth you mentioned us talking about a group of Advisors, not just one. So a group may differ on one issue, and the Caliph would choose the opinion which he think is better.


Imam Ali (a.s) during the time of Prophet's (s.a.w.w) rulership was like Nabi Haroon (a.s) was during the time of Nabi Musa's (a.s) rulership.
Haroon(as) was an active Prophet. During the lifetime of Musa(as). Was Ali(ra) an active Imam during the time of Prophet(saws)?

I got it. You believe Ulil Amr can be more than one people at one time i.e. Caliph/King, governor, leader of an army etc.
Alhamdulillah.

muslim720

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2018, 03:15:20 PM »
12 year old girl? You've got me confused with MYTHBUSTER 😊

No, I have you figured out.

Quote
Not me. Oh not at all. It's actually scarred Islam as well as the Muslim Ummah 😊

haha, did you just separate yourself from the Muslim Ummah?  Awesome!

You distanced yourself from the Ummah and yet cannot say a word against a kufr-infested video.  This is your "auqaat".

Quote
It can be clearly seen. But you're too blinded by Saqifa to realise that.

I am scarred by Saqifa, which is visibly clear, but I am also too blinded by Saqifa to realize that!  Do you eat $hit for breakfast to come up with such nonsense?

Quote
Well if you've got the connection, influence, support and backup then you are going to use it to your advantage.

According to your theology, the Imams (ra) had connections.  They were influenced, supported and backed up by Allah (swt).  Are you saying that Allah (swt) abandoned them when He (swt) did not even abandon Yunus (asws)?

So much for Imams (ra) being higher than Prophets (asws), lol.

Quote
You ain't going to care what the Prophet s.a.w wants and advises.

No, we don't care about what the Shias (falsely) attribute to the Prophet (saw) and Ahlul Bayt (ra).

Quote
Muawiyah at Safeen and Aisha at Jamal did a lot better than those three wouldn’t you think.

Safeen?  Siffeen, perhaps? 

Quote
Inflicted lifelong wounds on Islam and the Muslims, not on me. Oh not at all.

By separating yourself from Islam and Muslims, for a second time now, you are intentionally or unknowingly testifying to be outside Islam and not a Muslim, lol.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 03:16:53 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2018, 06:57:26 PM »
No, I have you figured out.

haha, did you just separate yourself from the Muslim Ummah?  Awesome!

You distanced yourself from the Ummah and yet cannot say a word against a kufr-infested video.  This is your "auqaat".

I am scarred by Saqifa, which is visibly clear, but I am also too blinded by Saqifa to realize that!  Do you eat $hit for breakfast to come up with such nonsense?

According to your theology, the Imams (ra) had connections.  They were influenced, supported and backed up by Allah (swt).  Are you saying that Allah (swt) abandoned them when He (swt) did not even abandon Yunus (asws)?

So much for Imams (ra) being higher than Prophets (asws), lol.

No, we don't care about what the Shias (falsely) attribute to the Prophet (saw) and Ahlul Bayt (ra).

Safeen?  Siffeen, perhaps? 

By separating yourself from Islam and Muslims, for a second time now, you are intentionally or unknowingly testifying to be outside Islam and not a Muslim, lol.

"No, I have you figured out"

You've got yourself all mixed up, here as well as there and everywhere.

"haha, did you just separate yourself from the Muslim Ummah?  Awesome!"

Why is the Muslim Ummah in such as mess at a global level? It all started off from Saqifa. Muslim turning against Muslims. Muslim rulers exercising heavy handed tactics on the Ummah. I don't think this is AWESOME.

"You distanced yourself from the Ummah and yet cannot say a word against a kufr-infested video.  This is your "auqaat".

What's the definition of Kufr? No reply from you. That's your AUQAAT!  You don't want to get into a discussion. You're afraid of being cornered and caught out.

"Do you eat $hit for breakfast to come up with such nonsense?"

You're very familiar with s..., it seems like you have a very close relationship with it. Saqifa was just a coincidence. The three rushed there just to stop something terrible from happening. Read your own books.

"Are you saying that Allah (swt) abandoned them when He (swt) did not even abandon Yunus (asws)?"

Well if that's what you think then why don't you ask yourself why Allah left the fate of mankind in the hands of Satan for him to toy and play.

"So much for Imams (ra) being higher than Prophets (asws), lol."

Allah's decision, not mine. Sort it out with him when you see him.

"No, we don't care about what the Shias (falsely) attribute to the Prophet (saw) and Ahlul Bayt (ra)"

We don't falsely attribute. It's your rulers who took matter into their own hands when it came to Sunnah especially hadiths.

"Safeen?  Siffeen, perhaps?"

It doesn't matter be it Safeen or Jamal, they went against your Caliphate 😊 Yes your beloved Caliphate which you so eagerly justify and defend but uptil Usman. After that your doubts start kicking in about Caliphate. That's double standards for you. You can't stick to one thing, matter or principle. And you never will.

"By separating yourself from Islam and Muslims, for a second time now, you are intentionally or unknowingly testifying to be outside Islam and not a Muslim, lol"

If that's what you think then I'll answer that with a hadith from your own books.

iceman

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2018, 07:09:36 PM »
The Messenger, upon whom be peace, said:

"He who says to his brother 'O disbeliever', then it returns upon one of them."
Reported by Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Malik, At-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud
He also said:

"And he who accuses a believer of kufr (disbelief) then it is like killing him."
Reported by Al-Bukhari

Mythbuster1

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2018, 08:36:26 PM »
"saqifa has messed up your braincells"

Nope. Not at all. 😊 It's messed up Islam and the Muslims.

"even the most stupid idea of promotions after prophethood has rendered you brain dead......"

That's exactly what the Qur'an says. If you think it's the most stupid idea then take it up with God when you see him.

"you can’t even answer your own made up theory"

Answered it MANY TIMES OVER. You just don't want to accept it. Your arrogance is stepping in the way.

"even a 12 year old Sunni would laugh at you"

Laugh, well that's all you've been doing. That's what Sunnis do, have a laugh. 😊

"One prophet gets it
Last prophet saw NEVER mentions it or recieves it
Non prophet recieve it at birth"

Steady on there. One step at a time my dear. Allah gave the example of Abraham. You don't want to accept it then that's down to you. Don't look for excuses. The last Prophet saw mentioned it. It's in your books. Most of your books. And Allah decides who he honours, how and when. Any problems then take it up with him.

"Thinking bad about saqifa has had a bad effect on your braincells as can be seen"

I don't think bad about anything or anyone. Tell me what's right about Saqifa? 😊

"You are scarred ......IT SHOWS, you keep bringing it up but you keep getting REFUTED"

I'm not scared. Otherwise I wouldn't be here. There's nothing to be scared about here. Refuted? Your arrogance over a matter is no refute.

Saqifa was successful and implemented........divine Imamate NEVER has been.
You can’t prove otherwise and now it hurts you that events at saqifa we’re more successful because IT happened.

Idea was first thought of by ibn Saba.
Is he who you worship?
God never mentioned Ibrahim as was PROMOTED to a being what ibn Saba thought to be divine.😉

Iceman Logic ;
God gives divine authority higher than prophethood to Abraham
God misses/skips that divine authority higher than prophethood on Muhammad pbuh
The children of the last prophet pbuh AUTOMATICALLY are born and bred with divine authority.

Icemans answers to the logic above;
Iceman says it’s gods plan without giving details He chooses and that’s it, then iceman either says he has answered or I am too stubborn or blind or the best answer you gave....”go ask god”😂

You are not giving answers to questions asked, how some don’t need to be prophets to get divine Imamate? yet you post a verse of a great prophet whom Allah swt called KHALIL how He had to go through trials and is mentioned by Allah swt in the Quran Yet the ahle baith ra were left out and not mentioned.

And your complaining others are arrogant?

Every human laughs at clowns and Sunnis aren’t any different.😉

Oh another gem.......please do provide the source or sources of prophet saw mentioning He is now an imam after His prophecy.
You make claims but fall short of providing proofs for them.
All hot air.😉

Chill out I wrote “scarred” not scared lol
I am sure you are a brave guy following in the footsteps of a hero hiding out of fear 1300 years ago.😉

muslim720

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2018, 09:42:42 PM »
Why is the Muslim Ummah in such as mess at a global level? It all started off from Saqifa. Muslim turning against Muslims. Muslim rulers exercising heavy handed tactics on the Ummah. I don't think this is AWESOME.


The awesome comment was for your separation of yourself from the Islamic Ummah.  You distanced yourself from Islam; shot yourself in the foot.

As for global level mess, I blame the "infallible" Imams.  It was during the time of Imam Ali (ra) that Muslims fought each other on a large scale.  Then again at the time of Imam Hassan (ra).  Therefore, the absent concept of Imamah is the root cause of mess for the Ummah.

Quote
What's the definition of Kufr? No reply from you. That's your AUQAAT!  You don't want to get into a discussion. You're afraid of being cornered and caught out.

No, kanjar, that is your auqaat!  You are so caught up in licking your wounds inflicted by Saqifa that you actually issued a statement distancing yourself from Islam and Muslims.  You made takfeer on your own self.  SubhanAllah, from the horse's mouth!  More like from the donkey's mouth in your case.

Quote
You're very familiar with s..., it seems like you have a very close relationship with it.

I deal with $hit everyday because you keep spewing it.

Quote
Saqifa was just a coincidence. The three rushed there just to stop something terrible from happening. Read your own books.

Coincidence or not, the three got what they wanted.  Your four "infallibles" (ra) alive at the time could not achieve their objectives.  Game over, you lost!

Quote
Well if that's what you think then why don't you ask yourself why Allah left the fate of mankind in the hands of Satan for him to toy and play.

We are talking about Prophets (asws) and Imams (ra), the latter being higher than the former in your theology.  If Allah (swt) accepted Yunus (asws) even when he temporarily disobeyed Allah (swt), why were your Imams (ra) never supplemented and granted respite?  Is it that Allah (swt) abandoned them or is the entire concept of Imamah is a fabrication?

Quote
Allah's decision, not mine. Sort it out with him when you see him.

Allah's (swt) decision is clear.  The three "rushed" to Saqifa and got everyone in line.  They took the power and won so much for Islam; brought vast areas of the globe under Islamic rule.  On the other hand, the "infallibles" (ra) achieved nothing.  Womp womp womp!

Quote
We don't falsely attribute. It's your rulers who took matter into their own hands when it came to Sunnah especially hadiths.

Assuming rulers took matter into their own hands, how does that weaken our ahadith literature?  Compare this to your own Imam (ra) issuing dubious dichotomous fatwa regarding some of your most prolific narrators like Zurarah, lol.  One one occasion he was cursed, in another he was praised.  What a tragedy!  The Imams (ra) were actually misguiding people.  Oh what a disaster!

Quote
It doesn't matter be it Safeen or Jamal, they went against your Caliphate 😊

It does matter!  You are an "imbecile", not "imbasil".  Makes a world of a difference!

Quote
Yes your beloved Caliphate which you so eagerly justify and defend but uptil Usman. After that your doubts start kicking in about Caliphate. That's double standards for you. You can't stick to one thing, matter or principle. And you never will.

Caliphate is not nearly a principle within our theology as is the absent-from-Qur'an concept of Imamah for you.  However, to burn you further, may Allah be pleased with Muawiya.  Had he not fought back, we would have never known that Imamah is a failure, lol.

Quote
If that's what you think then I'll answer that with a hadith from your own books.

It is not what I think; it is exactly what you said.  You clearly distinguished yourself from Islam and the Muslim Ummah.  Hence, you made takfeer upon your own self.  And that is your auqaat!

Quote
The Messenger, upon whom be peace, said:

"He who says to his brother 'O disbeliever', then it returns upon one of them."
Reported by Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Malik, At-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud
He also said:

"And he who accuses a believer of kufr (disbelief) then it is like killing him."
Reported by Al-Bukhari

These ahadith talk about a Muslim making takfeer on another; it does not address a situation in which an imbecile separates himself from the Muslims and makes takfeer upon himself (which is exactly what you did).
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2018, 04:18:57 PM »


The awesome comment was for your separation of yourself from the Islamic Ummah.  You distanced yourself from Islam; shot yourself in the foot.

As for global level mess, I blame the "infallible" Imams.  It was during the time of Imam Ali (ra) that Muslims fought each other on a large scale.  Then again at the time of Imam Hassan (ra).  Therefore, the absent concept of Imamah is the root cause of mess for the Ummah.

No, kanjar, that is your auqaat!  You are so caught up in licking your wounds inflicted by Saqifa that you actually issued a statement distancing yourself from Islam and Muslims.  You made takfeer on your own self.  SubhanAllah, from the horse's mouth!  More like from the donkey's mouth in your case.

I deal with $hit everyday because you keep spewing it.

Coincidence or not, the three got what they wanted.  Your four "infallibles" (ra) alive at the time could not achieve their objectives.  Game over, you lost!

We are talking about Prophets (asws) and Imams (ra), the latter being higher than the former in your theology.  If Allah (swt) accepted Yunus (asws) even when he temporarily disobeyed Allah (swt), why were your Imams (ra) never supplemented and granted respite?  Is it that Allah (swt) abandoned them or is the entire concept of Imamah is a fabrication?

Allah's (swt) decision is clear.  The three "rushed" to Saqifa and got everyone in line.  They took the power and won so much for Islam; brought vast areas of the globe under Islamic rule.  On the other hand, the "infallibles" (ra) achieved nothing.  Womp womp womp!

Assuming rulers took matter into their own hands, how does that weaken our ahadith literature?  Compare this to your own Imam (ra) issuing dubious dichotomous fatwa regarding some of your most prolific narrators like Zurarah, lol.  One one occasion he was cursed, in another he was praised.  What a tragedy!  The Imams (ra) were actually misguiding people.  Oh what a disaster!

It does matter!  You are an "imbecile", not "imbasil".  Makes a world of a difference!

Caliphate is not nearly a principle within our theology as is the absent-from-Qur'an concept of Imamah for you.  However, to burn you further, may Allah be pleased with Muawiya.  Had he not fought back, we would have never known that Imamah is a failure, lol.

It is not what I think; it is exactly what you said.  You clearly distinguished yourself from Islam and the Muslim Ummah.  Hence, you made takfeer upon your own self.  And that is your auqaat!

These ahadith talk about a Muslim making takfeer on another; it does not address a situation in which an imbecile separates himself from the Muslims and makes takfeer upon himself (which is exactly what you did).

"for your separation of yourself from the Islamic Ummah.  You distanced yourself from Islam"

😀😀😀 I don't know where you get your fairytales from.

"As for global level mess, I blame the "infallible" Imams.  It was during the time of Imam Ali (ra) that Muslims fought each other on a large scale"

Allow me to correct you. Muslims didn't fight each other, certain individuals rebelled against your 4th RIGHTLY GUIDED CALIPH OF THE MUSLIMS. They challenged your Caliph and your Caliphate system by means of violence and threatening behaviour. And you don't have the courage to criticise and condemn those and what needs to be criticised and condemned.

And you talk about crticisism and condemnation of Kufr in a silly clip created and designed for propaganda purposes.

"Therefore, the absent concept of Imamah is the root cause of mess for the Ummah"

Ok, so where's Caliphate then? The absent concept of Imamah is because of certain Muslims pushing for authority rather than being governed by the Prophet's s.a.w desire and choice. Remember the black day, where the Prophet s.a.w was refused access to pen and paper. That's what caused the problem.

"As for global level mess, I blame the "infallible" Imams"

It's got nothing to do with you or I or what we think. It's to do with reality and facts. Blame those who need to be blamed. And those are the ones who refused the Prophet s.a.w access to pen and paper and disregarded what he wanted them to have. There's your blame and who needs to be blamed.

"No, kanjar, that is your auqaat!  You are so caught up in licking your wounds inflicted by Saqifa"

I'm not the slightest worried about saqifa. Why would an coincidental and unfortunate incident worry me, and the unfair, unjust, immature decision made by a handful of people.


 that you actually issued a statement distancing yourself from Islam and Muslims"

iceman

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2018, 05:20:28 PM »


The awesome comment was for your separation of yourself from the Islamic Ummah.  You distanced yourself from Islam; shot yourself in the foot.

As for global level mess, I blame the "infallible" Imams.  It was during the time of Imam Ali (ra) that Muslims fought each other on a large scale.  Then again at the time of Imam Hassan (ra).  Therefore, the absent concept of Imamah is the root cause of mess for the Ummah.

No, kanjar, that is your auqaat!  You are so caught up in licking your wounds inflicted by Saqifa that you actually issued a statement distancing yourself from Islam and Muslims.  You made takfeer on your own self.  SubhanAllah, from the horse's mouth!  More like from the donkey's mouth in your case.

I deal with $hit everyday because you keep spewing it.

Coincidence or not, the three got what they wanted.  Your four "infallibles" (ra) alive at the time could not achieve their objectives.  Game over, you lost!

We are talking about Prophets (asws) and Imams (ra), the latter being higher than the former in your theology.  If Allah (swt) accepted Yunus (asws) even when he temporarily disobeyed Allah (swt), why were your Imams (ra) never supplemented and granted respite?  Is it that Allah (swt) abandoned them or is the entire concept of Imamah is a fabrication?

Allah's (swt) decision is clear.  The three "rushed" to Saqifa and got everyone in line.  They took the power and won so much for Islam; brought vast areas of the globe under Islamic rule.  On the other hand, the "infallibles" (ra) achieved nothing.  Womp womp womp!

Assuming rulers took matter into their own hands, how does that weaken our ahadith literature?  Compare this to your own Imam (ra) issuing dubious dichotomous fatwa regarding some of your most prolific narrators like Zurarah, lol.  One one occasion he was cursed, in another he was praised.  What a tragedy!  The Imams (ra) were actually misguiding people.  Oh what a disaster!

It does matter!  You are an "imbecile", not "imbasil".  Makes a world of a difference!

Caliphate is not nearly a principle within our theology as is the absent-from-Qur'an concept of Imamah for you.  However, to burn you further, may Allah be pleased with Muawiya.  Had he not fought back, we would have never known that Imamah is a failure, lol.

It is not what I think; it is exactly what you said.  You clearly distinguished yourself from Islam and the Muslim Ummah.  Hence, you made takfeer upon your own self.  And that is your auqaat!

These ahadith talk about a Muslim making takfeer on another; it does not address a situation in which an imbecile separates himself from the Muslims and makes takfeer upon himself (which is exactly what you did).

"that you actually issued a statement distancing yourself from Islam and Muslims"

Did I? 😀 Where and when?

"No, kanjar, that is your auqaat!, and "More like from the donkey's mouth in your case"

😀😁😂😅 I know I'm getting the better of you. Your comments and behaviour tells. Lovin it. 😊

"Coincidence or not, the three got what they wanted"

Absolutely they got what THEY WANTED. Not what the PROPHET S.A.W WANTED. Thanks for admitting it.

"Your four "infallibles" (ra) alive at the time could not achieve their objectives.  Game over, you lost!"

That's how you see it. They were given a title and a job to do (Imamah), and mashallah they did it well. They didn't let their desire or will get in their way. Mashallah 😊

"If Allah (swt) accepted Yunus (asws) even when he temporarily disobeyed Allah (swt), why were your Imams (ra) never supplemented and granted respite?  Is it that Allah (swt) abandoned them or is the entire concept of Imamah is a fabrication?"

You don't understand why Imamah is all about. Because you've been fed rubbish about it from day one so how would you. Start a thread on Imamah, commit yourself to a discussion not argument and stick to the thread and what is being discussed and I ill tell you infact educate you on Imamah and what it's all about.

iceman

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2018, 07:12:28 PM »


The awesome comment was for your separation of yourself from the Islamic Ummah.  You distanced yourself from Islam; shot yourself in the foot.

As for global level mess, I blame the "infallible" Imams.  It was during the time of Imam Ali (ra) that Muslims fought each other on a large scale.  Then again at the time of Imam Hassan (ra).  Therefore, the absent concept of Imamah is the root cause of mess for the Ummah.

No, kanjar, that is your auqaat!  You are so caught up in licking your wounds inflicted by Saqifa that you actually issued a statement distancing yourself from Islam and Muslims.  You made takfeer on your own self.  SubhanAllah, from the horse's mouth!  More like from the donkey's mouth in your case.

I deal with $hit everyday because you keep spewing it.

Coincidence or not, the three got what they wanted.  Your four "infallibles" (ra) alive at the time could not achieve their objectives.  Game over, you lost!

We are talking about Prophets (asws) and Imams (ra), the latter being higher than the former in your theology.  If Allah (swt) accepted Yunus (asws) even when he temporarily disobeyed Allah (swt), why were your Imams (ra) never supplemented and granted respite?  Is it that Allah (swt) abandoned them or is the entire concept of Imamah is a fabrication?

Allah's (swt) decision is clear.  The three "rushed" to Saqifa and got everyone in line.  They took the power and won so much for Islam; brought vast areas of the globe under Islamic rule.  On the other hand, the "infallibles" (ra) achieved nothing.  Womp womp womp!

Assuming rulers took matter into their own hands, how does that weaken our ahadith literature?  Compare this to your own Imam (ra) issuing dubious dichotomous fatwa regarding some of your most prolific narrators like Zurarah, lol.  One one occasion he was cursed, in another he was praised.  What a tragedy!  The Imams (ra) were actually misguiding people.  Oh what a disaster!

It does matter!  You are an "imbecile", not "imbasil".  Makes a world of a difference!

Caliphate is not nearly a principle within our theology as is the absent-from-Qur'an concept of Imamah for you.  However, to burn you further, may Allah be pleased with Muawiya.  Had he not fought back, we would have never known that Imamah is a failure, lol.

It is not what I think; it is exactly what you said.  You clearly distinguished yourself from Islam and the Muslim Ummah.  Hence, you made takfeer upon your own self.  And that is your auqaat!

These ahadith talk about a Muslim making takfeer on another; it does not address a situation in which an imbecile separates himself from the Muslims and makes takfeer upon himself (which is exactly what you did).

"These ahadith talk about a Muslim making takfeer on another; it does not address a situation in which an imbecile separates himself from the Muslims and makes takfeer upon himself (which is exactly what you did)"

How did I separate myself from the Muslims and make takfeer upon myself? You've accused me of things before and when questioned you came up with nothing. I don't expect much from you now either.

"It is not what I think; it is exactly what you said.  You clearly distinguished yourself from Islam and the Muslim Ummah.  Hence, you made takfeer upon your own self.  And that is your auqaat!"

Show me how, when and where?

"Caliphate is not nearly a principle within our theology"

When and where did I say it was? Was the selection of Abu Bakr fair and justified? Was it legitimate? That's what I'm asking.

"absent-from-Qur'an concept of Imamah for you"

It isn't absent you're in constant denial over it.  You don't want to discuss it but argue over it. You question and ask to raise suspicion and cast doubt over it because you already have a mindset which is against it.

iceman

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2018, 11:35:01 PM »


The awesome comment was for your separation of yourself from the Islamic Ummah.  You distanced yourself from Islam; shot yourself in the foot.

As for global level mess, I blame the "infallible" Imams.  It was during the time of Imam Ali (ra) that Muslims fought each other on a large scale.  Then again at the time of Imam Hassan (ra).  Therefore, the absent concept of Imamah is the root cause of mess for the Ummah.

No, kanjar, that is your auqaat!  You are so caught up in licking your wounds inflicted by Saqifa that you actually issued a statement distancing yourself from Islam and Muslims.  You made takfeer on your own self.  SubhanAllah, from the horse's mouth!  More like from the donkey's mouth in your case.

I deal with $hit everyday because you keep spewing it.

Coincidence or not, the three got what they wanted.  Your four "infallibles" (ra) alive at the time could not achieve their objectives.  Game over, you lost!

We are talking about Prophets (asws) and Imams (ra), the latter being higher than the former in your theology.  If Allah (swt) accepted Yunus (asws) even when he temporarily disobeyed Allah (swt), why were your Imams (ra) never supplemented and granted respite?  Is it that Allah (swt) abandoned them or is the entire concept of Imamah is a fabrication?

Allah's (swt) decision is clear.  The three "rushed" to Saqifa and got everyone in line.  They took the power and won so much for Islam; brought vast areas of the globe under Islamic rule.  On the other hand, the "infallibles" (ra) achieved nothing.  Womp womp womp!

Assuming rulers took matter into their own hands, how does that weaken our ahadith literature?  Compare this to your own Imam (ra) issuing dubious dichotomous fatwa regarding some of your most prolific narrators like Zurarah, lol.  One one occasion he was cursed, in another he was praised.  What a tragedy!  The Imams (ra) were actually misguiding people.  Oh what a disaster!

It does matter!  You are an "imbecile", not "imbasil".  Makes a world of a difference!

Caliphate is not nearly a principle within our theology as is the absent-from-Qur'an concept of Imamah for you.  However, to burn you further, may Allah be pleased with Muawiya.  Had he not fought back, we would have never known that Imamah is a failure, lol.

It is not what I think; it is exactly what you said.  You clearly distinguished yourself from Islam and the Muslim Ummah.  Hence, you made takfeer upon your own self.  And that is your auqaat!

These ahadith talk about a Muslim making takfeer on another; it does not address a situation in which an imbecile separates himself from the Muslims and makes takfeer upon himself (which is exactly what you did).

"It does matter!  You are an "imbecile", not "imbasil".  Makes a world of a difference!"

And, "No, kanjar, that is your auqaat!" And, "it does not address a situation in which an imbecile separates himself "

You're right, it really doesn't matter how you shoot off your mouth. I like to say and behave in a respectable manner to represent and show myself as well mannered and you as I'll mannered. You can carry on with your tongue as you please, it doesn't bother me the slightest. With your behaviour I can tell that I've got and I'm getting the better of you.

"However, to burn you further, may Allah be pleased with Muawiya.  Had he not fought back, we would have never known that Imamah is a failure, lol."

Muawiyah didn't fight back. This is where you're dead wrong and you know it. I know you love to defend and protect certain personalities to such an extent that you can't distinguish between true and false and right and wrong anymore.

Muawiyah opposed your Caliphate system. In fact he made a mockery out of it by using means of violence and threatening behaviour. He used his influence, support and connections which he built under the regin of the first three and used it to his advantage.

If this wasn't Ali but one of the first three then your stance on Muawiya would be absolutely and totally different. You wouldn't have fallen short of branding Muawiya as a Murtad just like Malik bin Nuwayrah. I know your difference in principles and your double standards. And I'm very familiar with your hypocritical stance and tactics.

"Assuming rulers took matter into their own hands, how does that weaken our ahadith literature?"

Have some dignity and shame by sticking to one thing and principle. Accept the Caliphate system by not going weak on the 4th Caliph and then completely loosing it from there onwards. Yazeed was your beloved Caliph as well. Honour and praise him just like the first three.

iceman

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2018, 11:52:32 PM »
“And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him)) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment”

[al-Hashr 59:7]

“Say: "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (Messenger Muhammad (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him)) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah’s Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messengers duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way (i.e. to preach in a plain way)”

[an-Noor 24:54]

“We sent no Messenger, but to be obeyed by Allah’s Leave”

[an-Nisa’ 4:64]

The Prophet s.a.w asked for a pen and paper so he may give something. Was the Prophet s.a.w obeyed? Were the people present willing take what the Prophet s.a.w was giving/offering? 😊

The matter is crystal clear and in black and white. All matters are. But certain people wish to continue to mitigate matters by raising suspicion and casting doubt. Don't let these people fool you. Don't continue to fool yourself. 😊

muslim720

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2018, 02:59:56 AM »
😀😀😀 I don't know where you get your fairytales from.

From the mouth of the donkey who clearly distinguished himself from Islam and the Muslims.

Quote
Allow me to correct you. Muslims didn't fight each other, certain individuals rebelled against your 4th RIGHTLY GUIDED CALIPH OF THE MUSLIMS. They challenged your Caliph and your Caliphate system by means of violence and threatening behaviour. And you don't have the courage to criticise and condemn those and what needs to be criticised and condemned.

Muslims fought each other because Imam Ali (ra) never considered them "certain individuals" but instead as "Muslims".  And they did not challenge the Caliphate system; they disagreed over the blood of Uthman (ra) and it was Imam Ali (ra) to bring troops to fight them.  However, the point still stands.  The first major bloodshed among Muslims happened at the time of Imam Ali (ra) and then Imam Hassan (ra).  Hence, you should blame Imamah for Islamic bloodshed.

Quote
And you talk about crticisism and condemnation of Kufr in a silly clip created and designed for propaganda purposes.

No, I want to see how far will you go to not condemn such a kufr-ish clip to show you your "auqaat".

Quote
Ok, so where's Caliphate then? The absent concept of Imamah is because of certain Muslims pushing for authority rather than being governed by the Prophet's s.a.w desire and choice.

Caliphate is gone, unfortunately, but the first instance of Muslim infighting and bloodshed came at the time of an "infallible" (ra).  Therefore, blame Imamah!

Quote
Remember the black day, where the Prophet s.a.w was refused access to pen and paper. That's what caused the problem.

Going by your belief, on that day, much like on so many other days, the "infallibles" (ra) stood around incapable of bringing pen and paper.  Once again, Umar (ra) incapacitated the "Divinely Appointed Infallibles" (ra).  They could not even overcome Umar (ra) to bring pen and paper and you want us to believe that they will guide all mankind.

Quote
And those are the ones who refused the Prophet s.a.w access to pen and paper and disregarded what he wanted them to have. There's your blame and who needs to be blamed.

For the sake of argument, I blame everyone who refused, and was unable, to bring pen and paper.  That is the fair stance.  If we adopt it, then, we have to also blame those who sat idly and did nothing, like Imam Ali (ra).

Time and again, your accusations fall directly upon your own "infallibles" (ra).  Every. Time.

Quote
I'm not the slightest worried about saqifa. Why would an coincidental and unfortunate incident worry me, and the unfair, unjust, immature decision made by a handful of people.

It should worry you because, among many other reasons, the same "immature decision" was upheld by Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) who accepted to rule as per the "immature decision".

Quote
Did I? 😀 Where and when?

"Not me. Oh not at all. It's actually scarred Islam as well as the Muslim Ummah 😊"

"Inflicted lifelong wounds on Islam and the Muslims, not on me. Oh not at all."

In both those statements, you have made the claim that Saqifa scarred Islam and Muslims, not you.  From that, it can be inferred that you are outside Islam and do not belong with the Muslims.  Had you been a little smarter, you would have said that Saqifa has scarred "most", "a significant portion", etc, of the Ummah.

Quote
Absolutely they got what THEY WANTED. Not what the PROPHET S.A.W WANTED. Thanks for admitting it.

How do you know it is not what the Prophet (saw) wanted?  The Prophet (saw) had left the earthly existence when the first three (ra) coerced your "infallibles" (ra) into unimportance and rendered them helpless, lol.

Quote
That's how you see it. They were given a title and a job to do (Imamah), and mashallah they did it well. They didn't let their desire or will get in their way. Mashallah 😊

Yes, they did their job.  They affirmed that Abu Bakr (ra) was right when it comes to Fadak.  They affirmed that Muawiya, contrary to your belief, was a Muslim.  They affirmed, beyond a shadow of doubt, and to darken your face, that their rule was not "Divinely Ordained".  Indeed they did a good job except their deeds go against your beliefs.  Oops!

Quote
You don't understand why Imamah is all about.

You could not distinguish Yunus (asws) from Yusuf (asws).

Quote
Because you've been fed rubbish about it from day one so how would you.

I asked at Shi'i mosques.  If you do not like my understanding of Imamah, you should fight those mosques.  I believe I already provided you their names and location.

Quote
Start a thread on Imamah, commit yourself to a discussion not argument and stick to the thread and what is being discussed and I ill tell you infact educate you on Imamah and what it's all about.

Seems like you should first educate your own mosques because clearly you know something they don't!

Quote
It isn't absent you're in constant denial over it.

Then where is it?  Not a single verse!

Quote
With your behaviour I can tell that I've got and I'm getting the better of you.

Consolation prize?

Quote
Muawiyah opposed your Caliphate system. In fact he made a mockery out of it by using means of violence and threatening behaviour. He used his influence, support and connections which he built under the regin of the first three and used it to his advantage.

So Muawiya used his influence, support and connections to render Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) - who were being aided by Allah (swt) - useless?  A mere mortal outsmarted and outwitted two "Divinely Chosen Infallible" beings (ra)!  I say this Muawiya was a genius.  No wonder he gives you nightmares.

Quote
Have some dignity and shame by sticking to one thing and principle.

Kaminay, kanjar, you brought up ahaadith, not me. 

Quote
Yazeed was your beloved Caliph as well. Honour and praise him just like the first three.

Compared to you, Yazeed, indeed, was an honorable and praiseworthy man.  His crime was that he killed Imam Hussain (ra); your crime is that you are hell-bent upon throwing the entire Ummah in confusion by undermining the message of Islam.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 03:02:49 AM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2018, 12:58:41 PM »
From the mouth of the donkey who clearly distinguished himself from Islam and the Muslims.

Muslims fought each other because Imam Ali (ra) never considered them "certain individuals" but instead as "Muslims".  And they did not challenge the Caliphate system; they disagreed over the blood of Uthman (ra) and it was Imam Ali (ra) to bring troops to fight them.  However, the point still stands.  The first major bloodshed among Muslims happened at the time of Imam Ali (ra) and then Imam Hassan (ra).  Hence, you should blame Imamah for Islamic bloodshed.

No, I want to see how far will you go to not condemn such a kufr-ish clip to show you your "auqaat".

Caliphate is gone, unfortunately, but the first instance of Muslim infighting and bloodshed came at the time of an "infallible" (ra).  Therefore, blame Imamah!

Going by your belief, on that day, much like on so many other days, the "infallibles" (ra) stood around incapable of bringing pen and paper.  Once again, Umar (ra) incapacitated the "Divinely Appointed Infallibles" (ra).  They could not even overcome Umar (ra) to bring pen and paper and you want us to believe that they will guide all mankind.

For the sake of argument, I blame everyone who refused, and was unable, to bring pen and paper.  That is the fair stance.  If we adopt it, then, we have to also blame those who sat idly and did nothing, like Imam Ali (ra).

Time and again, your accusations fall directly upon your own "infallibles" (ra).  Every. Time.

It should worry you because, among many other reasons, the same "immature decision" was upheld by Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) who accepted to rule as per the "immature decision".

"Not me. Oh not at all. It's actually scarred Islam as well as the Muslim Ummah 😊"

"Inflicted lifelong wounds on Islam and the Muslims, not on me. Oh not at all."

In both those statements, you have made the claim that Saqifa scarred Islam and Muslims, not you.  From that, it can be inferred that you are outside Islam and do not belong with the Muslims.  Had you been a little smarter, you would have said that Saqifa has scarred "most", "a significant portion", etc, of the Ummah.

How do you know it is not what the Prophet (saw) wanted?  The Prophet (saw) had left the earthly existence when the first three (ra) coerced your "infallibles" (ra) into unimportance and rendered them helpless, lol.

Yes, they did their job.  They affirmed that Abu Bakr (ra) was right when it comes to Fadak.  They affirmed that Muawiya, contrary to your belief, was a Muslim.  They affirmed, beyond a shadow of doubt, and to darken your face, that their rule was not "Divinely Ordained".  Indeed they did a good job except their deeds go against your beliefs.  Oops!

You could not distinguish Yunus (asws) from Yusuf (asws).

I asked at Shi'i mosques.  If you do not like my understanding of Imamah, you should fight those mosques.  I believe I already provided you their names and location.

Seems like you should first educate your own mosques because clearly you know something they don't!

Then where is it?  Not a single verse!

Consolation prize?

So Muawiya used his influence, support and connections to render Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) - who were being aided by Allah (swt) - useless?  A mere mortal outsmarted and outwitted two "Divinely Chosen Infallible" beings (ra)!  I say this Muawiya was a genius.  No wonder he gives you nightmares.

Kaminay, kanjar, you brought up ahaadith, not me. 

Compared to you, Yazeed, indeed, was an honorable and praiseworthy man.  His crime was that he killed Imam Hussain (ra); your crime is that you are hell-bent upon throwing the entire Ummah in confusion by undermining the message of Islam.

"From the mouth of the donkey who clearly distinguished himself from Islam and the Muslims"

Where and when? You accuse then run off on to something else. PROVE IT.

"Muslims fought each other because Imam Ali (ra) never considered them"

WHAT A LOUSY EXCUSE. They took up arms against the Caliph (Ali) because he didn't give them governmental roles and positions? You must be joking. But thanks for being honest. At least we're getting somewhere.

He (Ali) had the right to choose his own administration and cabinet, just like his predecessors. Nice one though, it was the Caliphs (Ali) fault and not the ones who took on violence and threatening behaviour just to have their demands met😊 Nice one.

If this wasn't Ali but one of the first three then your belief and story would be absolutely the other way around.

iceman

Re: Concept of Imamah in Ahlul Sunnah
« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2018, 02:35:23 PM »
From the mouth of the donkey who clearly distinguished himself from Islam and the Muslims.

Muslims fought each other because Imam Ali (ra) never considered them "certain individuals" but instead as "Muslims".  And they did not challenge the Caliphate system; they disagreed over the blood of Uthman (ra) and it was Imam Ali (ra) to bring troops to fight them.  However, the point still stands.  The first major bloodshed among Muslims happened at the time of Imam Ali (ra) and then Imam Hassan (ra).  Hence, you should blame Imamah for Islamic bloodshed.

No, I want to see how far will you go to not condemn such a kufr-ish clip to show you your "auqaat".

Caliphate is gone, unfortunately, but the first instance of Muslim infighting and bloodshed came at the time of an "infallible" (ra).  Therefore, blame Imamah!

Going by your belief, on that day, much like on so many other days, the "infallibles" (ra) stood around incapable of bringing pen and paper.  Once again, Umar (ra) incapacitated the "Divinely Appointed Infallibles" (ra).  They could not even overcome Umar (ra) to bring pen and paper and you want us to believe that they will guide all mankind.

For the sake of argument, I blame everyone who refused, and was unable, to bring pen and paper.  That is the fair stance.  If we adopt it, then, we have to also blame those who sat idly and did nothing, like Imam Ali (ra).

Time and again, your accusations fall directly upon your own "infallibles" (ra).  Every. Time.

It should worry you because, among many other reasons, the same "immature decision" was upheld by Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) who accepted to rule as per the "immature decision".

"Not me. Oh not at all. It's actually scarred Islam as well as the Muslim Ummah 😊"

"Inflicted lifelong wounds on Islam and the Muslims, not on me. Oh not at all."

In both those statements, you have made the claim that Saqifa scarred Islam and Muslims, not you.  From that, it can be inferred that you are outside Islam and do not belong with the Muslims.  Had you been a little smarter, you would have said that Saqifa has scarred "most", "a significant portion", etc, of the Ummah.

How do you know it is not what the Prophet (saw) wanted?  The Prophet (saw) had left the earthly existence when the first three (ra) coerced your "infallibles" (ra) into unimportance and rendered them helpless, lol.

Yes, they did their job.  They affirmed that Abu Bakr (ra) was right when it comes to Fadak.  They affirmed that Muawiya, contrary to your belief, was a Muslim.  They affirmed, beyond a shadow of doubt, and to darken your face, that their rule was not "Divinely Ordained".  Indeed they did a good job except their deeds go against your beliefs.  Oops!

You could not distinguish Yunus (asws) from Yusuf (asws).

I asked at Shi'i mosques.  If you do not like my understanding of Imamah, you should fight those mosques.  I believe I already provided you their names and location.

Seems like you should first educate your own mosques because clearly you know something they don't!

Then where is it?  Not a single verse!

Consolation prize?

So Muawiya used his influence, support and connections to render Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) - who were being aided by Allah (swt) - useless?  A mere mortal outsmarted and outwitted two "Divinely Chosen Infallible" beings (ra)!  I say this Muawiya was a genius.  No wonder he gives you nightmares.

Kaminay, kanjar, you brought up ahaadith, not me. 

Compared to you, Yazeed, indeed, was an honorable and praiseworthy man.  His crime was that he killed Imam Hussain (ra); your crime is that you are hell-bent upon throwing the entire Ummah in confusion by undermining the message of Islam.

Compared to you, Yazeed, indeed, was an honorable and praiseworthy man"

You mean compared to Abu Bakr. In Saqifa there was no campaign no gathering on selecting a leader and Abu Bakr was chosen by a handful there. They just took the matter into their own hands. Then the decision was imposed on the others.

Where as Muawiya ran a campaign for Yazeed to be elected. And majority gave allegiance to him. See the difference on how Abu Bakr and Yazeed were selected. Yazeed gave the responsibility to Ubaydallah ibn Ziyaad to deal with Hussain and Abu Bakr gave a similar responsibility to Khalid ibn Waleed.

Basically an armed convoy was sent around to those who refused allegiance to Yazeed. A similar stance was taken by Abu Bakr on two occasions, once to get people to accept the decision in Saqifa without any objection and the second time to get people to hand over the Zakah money to them from now onwards.


"His crime was that he killed Imam Hussain (ra)"

Why did he kill him? Thanks for accepting this though. Some of you (Sunnis) believe Yazeed had nothing to do with it. He wasn't even aware of what was going on. Ubaydallah ibn Ziyaad acted according to himself. Just as Khalid ibn Waleed did in the case of Malik bin Nuwayrah and his clan.

"your crime is that you are hell-bent upon throwing the entire Ummah in confusion by undermining the message of Islam"

You accuse but can't prove. At least discuss so I can clear your misunderstanding.

 

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