TwelverShia.net Forum

Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Imamah-Ghaybah => Topic started by: Abu Muhammad on March 18, 2017, 01:06:41 AM

Title: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 18, 2017, 01:06:41 AM
To my learned brothers and sisters in this group, appreciate it very much if anyone of you knows about the following:

Did Ali r.a. ever, in his life, using the event of Ghadir Khum as an evidence for his so-called imamate?

If any, could you bring the narrations and from which books they are cited.
Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Rationalist on March 18, 2017, 08:44:01 PM
In fact, according to the 12ers the Imams only told a select few that they are the 12 divinely appointed. So in their lifetime the public supposedly had no clue they are 6th imam or the 7th imam. Today when a 12er reveals this to us, we become Nawasib for not accepting it.
Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Link on March 18, 2017, 09:02:27 PM
In fact, according to the 12ers the Imams only told a select few that they are the 12 divinely appointed. So in their lifetime the public supposedly had no clue they are 6th imam or the 7th imam. Today when a 12er reveals this to us, we become Nawasib for not accepting it.

Maybe you should give up this identity you are fighting to protect, be it yours or your group, but embark on a journey to find the truth!

You keep saying according to 12vers, but what you really mean, is according to some Twelvers. It doesn't matter how "big" the scholars who say this are, the truth is, you have to investigate the Quran and ahadith independently and see what contradicts Quran and what doesn't.

It doesn't matter even if all 12vers said this, you still have to independently investigate Quran and ahadith with reason.

There are ahadith that show the opposite to Taqiya, that show Imams were very public about their Imammate, and there is many with authentics I've seen.

Taqiya as in Imams hidding their position as opposed to followers hiding their faith, I have not seen much support!

Quran and Ahlulbayt go together, so Imams would essentially have to hide the teachings of Quran from the masses to hide away their Imammate.

All reasoning, Quran and most of our ahadith show they strove to manifest it.

There is no doubt going to be fabrications from the hidden and manifest Illuminati in all ages. They are the killers of PRophets and the causers of all revealed books to become hidden from society.

They are the reason of corruption streaming in religion till this day.

There are ahadith from Imams about the leaders of disbelief and the Shayateen coming down to them, there are hadiths about how Shaytan doesn't stop sending his forces in garbs of Shiites and narrating lies.

This is a given.

Yes seeing who is trustworthy is important, but we can't rely on the people who attempted to do that as if they knew people and knew exactly who everyone was.

They maybe wrong about people who they deemed either liar or weak or truthful or reliable.

Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Rationalist on March 19, 2017, 01:03:02 AM
Ok show me the report where Imam Ali references Ghadir to remind people he was appointed to rule the ummah.
Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Link on March 19, 2017, 02:54:40 PM
You guys are aware of the narrations where he get's people to testify that Rasool said this. If it meant "friend", all he had to do was quote the verse in Quran that believers are only brothers or something like that.

Also, he uses it to admonish people should not oppose him and his rule, but we know it wasn't matter that Mauwiya people considered Ali and his supporters to be disbelievers or anything like that.

I know you guys know about these ahadith.

We know you guys can magically interpret everything away and deny it.

That's nothing new.



Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Ebn Hussein on March 19, 2017, 03:24:08 PM
Yes, we are very well aware of narrations where Ali used the ghadir incident in a SUNNI sense, we don't need a disturbed Mushrik Rafidi like you to teach us. In fact those narrations are ammunition for Ahlussunnah as they prove that Ali and his descendants ALL understood Ghadir like Sunnis do, there is no magic or far fetched interpretations (what Rafidism is known for) needed, I converted from Shiims to Islam after understanding that my master Ali understood Ghadir just as Sunnis do. The hell with your satanistic-Kabbalistic 12 code game, one of the 13 disciples of Jesus was a Dajjal just like your 12th bastards Dajjal saviour.

I advise every truth seeker to study the following article carefully, it answers the query of this very post, every single narration the Rafida use has been answered. Alhamdulillah for following the understanding of Ali/Ahlul Bayt on the issue of Ghadir and not the understanding of the heretical Rafida:

https://gift2shias.com/2013/10/28/no-to-ghadir-qom-yes-to-ghadir-khom/amp/


Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Link on March 19, 2017, 03:28:36 PM
Nahjul balagha is more subtle, Imam Ali there in emphasized on the wisdom of why Imams are appointed and should be followed as shown in Quran and is complimenting the Quran in that regard.

It has arguments for Islam/Quran/Ahlulbayt for all of humanity.

He obviously knows people know about the ghadeer declaration. He is emphasizing on the wisdom of it, so people can have faith in Islam as they should with insight.



Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Ebn Hussein on March 19, 2017, 03:31:51 PM
Nahjul Balagha, a lie attributed to li lol

Link you are a textbook Zindiq and biased Jahil, I don't feel sorry for you, may you die upon Rafd and may Ali's curse be upon you in Qiyamah day.
Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Rationalist on March 19, 2017, 04:23:06 PM
Nahjul balagha is more subtle, Imam Ali there in emphasized on the wisdom of why Imams are appointed and should be followed as shown in Quran and is complimenting the Quran in that regard.



Najh Al Balagha has no mention of having limit to 12. In fact, it also hints imamate for the Hassani lineage.
Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Link on March 19, 2017, 04:29:33 PM
Nahjul balagha is more subtle, Imam Ali there in emphasized on the wisdom of why Imams are appointed and should be followed as shown in Quran and is complimenting the Quran in that regard.


Najh Al Balagha has no mention of having limit to 12. In fact, it also hints imamate for the Hassani lineage.

There is complimentary sermons to the mention of Twelve in Quran that make you understand the parables.

I appreciate all that because I needed to see reason to believe in Islam when my understanding of Arabic eloquence was really bad (it is still bad now so that route doesn't work for me).
Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Link on March 19, 2017, 04:38:05 PM
Nahjul Balagha, a lie attributed to li lol

Link you are a textbook Zindiq and biased Jahil, I don't feel sorry for you, may you die upon Rafd and may Ali's curse be upon you in Qiyamah day.

What is the goal and purpose of this post?
Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Rationalist on March 20, 2017, 12:47:53 AM


I appreciate all that because I needed to see reason to believe in Islam when my understanding of Arabic eloquence was really bad (it is still bad now so that route doesn't work for me).

That's the issue.  If you go by your history the Imams supposedly only told a select few that they are the 12. They never made any public announcement. The 12ers say Imam Zayd never claimed imamate. However, in Shaykh Mufid's book 'al Irshad' Hisham bin Abdul Malik mocks Imam Zayds and asks 'you think you are eligible to rule the Ummah? Imam Zayd doesn't reply back by saying no only the 12 are the Calipahs or the imam of the time is Imam Jafar. He tells him why he qualifies. So in those days, the Imams supposedly kept it a secret, but today you are supposed to tell us the truth? In Shaykh Saduq book Taqiyyah is done till the arrival of the 12th Imam. 
Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Link on March 20, 2017, 01:13:25 AM
You are making an issue from noise of people rather then investigating this issue rationally.
Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Rationalist on March 20, 2017, 03:07:46 AM
You are making an issue from noise of people rather then investigating this issue rationally.
No I am point out that Imam Jafar never announced his Imamate. In fact, in Al Kafi, 100,000 people from Kufa called to him, and he still refused to make his imamate public.

Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Link on March 20, 2017, 04:30:55 AM
You are making an issue from noise of people rather then investigating this issue rationally.
No I am point out that Imam Jafar never announced his Imamate. In fact, in Al Kafi, 100,000 people from Kufa called to him, and he still refused to make his imamate public.

Make your own foundations and believe whatever you want.

I will rely on what is for certain over what is doubtful and not give up what I know for what is doubtful.

Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Rationalist on March 20, 2017, 09:17:50 PM


I will rely on what is for certain over what is doubtful and not give up what I know for what is doubtful.


Taqiyyah is most doubtful foundation. It has no certainty because you are never able to tell how much truth exist in reality.
Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Link on March 21, 2017, 10:43:38 AM


I will rely on what is for certain over what is doubtful and not give up what I know for what is doubtful.


Taqiyyah is most doubtful foundation. It has no certainty because you are never able to tell how much truth exist in reality.

If you keep asserting things that you don't know and not seeking conclusive foundations by which you derive your other conclusions, you will be caught up in a mess of doubts.

Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Rationalist on March 21, 2017, 03:52:55 PM


I will rely on what is for certain over what is doubtful and not give up what I know for what is doubtful.


Taqiyyah is most doubtful foundation. It has no certainty because you are never able to tell how much truth exist in reality.

If you keep asserting things that you don't know and not seeking conclusive foundations by which you derive your other conclusions, you will be caught up in a mess of doubts.



But there are hadith and even conclusions from 12er  Shia scholars that Imam Jafar's Imamate was not announced publicly.
Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Hani on March 21, 2017, 10:30:52 PM
Alright guys, 17 posts thus far. What's the conclusion? Did `Ali ever use Ghadir as evidence for his leadership?
Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Link on March 21, 2017, 10:45:23 PM
Alright guys, 17 posts thus far. What's the conclusion? Did `Ali ever use Ghadir as evidence for his leadership?

Yes he did. Next question.
Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Hani on March 21, 2017, 10:54:30 PM
I don't see the evidence written anywhere above Mr.Link, are you sure your evidence is not in occultation or Ghaybah? It's concealed from all of us?
Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Hani on March 21, 2017, 10:55:57 PM

There is no doubt going to be fabrications from the hidden and manifest Illuminati in all ages. They are the killers of PRophets and the causers of all revealed books to become hidden from society.


Or maybe the Illuminati and reptilians erased your evidence?
Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Link on March 21, 2017, 11:00:02 PM
I don't see the evidence written anywhere above Mr.Link, are you sure your evidence is not in occultation or Ghaybah? It's concealed from all of us?

You guys TRY to conceal this, but there is a lot people who know the truth about this, and you yourselves know better but you trick yourself.
Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 22, 2017, 12:47:31 PM
I don't see the evidence written anywhere above Mr.Link, are you sure your evidence is not in occultation or Ghaybah? It's concealed from all of us?

You guys TRY to conceal this, but there is a lot people who know the truth about this, and you yourselves know better but you trick yourself.

You are like an empty container. When struck, produce a lot of sound but yeah, we know it's empty.

Produce your evidence...
Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 22, 2017, 12:49:17 PM
Yes, we are very well aware of narrations where Ali used the ghadir incident in a SUNNI sense, we don't need a disturbed Mushrik Rafidi like you to teach us. In fact those narrations are ammunition for Ahlussunnah as they prove that Ali and his descendants ALL understood Ghadir like Sunnis do, there is no magic or far fetched interpretations (what Rafidism is known for) needed, I converted from Shiims to Islam after understanding that my master Ali understood Ghadir just as Sunnis do. The hell with your satanistic-Kabbalistic 12 code game, one of the 13 disciples of Jesus was a Dajjal just like your 12th bastards Dajjal saviour.

I advise every truth seeker to study the following article carefully, it answers the query of this very post, every single narration the Rafida use has been answered. Alhamdulillah for following the understanding of Ali/Ahlul Bayt on the issue of Ghadir and not the understanding of the heretical Rafida:

https://gift2shias.com/2013/10/28/no-to-ghadir-qom-yes-to-ghadir-khom/amp/


Thank you brother Ebn Hussain for an excellent article.
Title: Re: Did Ali Use Ghadir Khum As Evidence For His Imamate?
Post by: Link on March 22, 2017, 01:50:01 PM
Produce your evidence...

Inshallah I continue to produce evidence as I have already done in the past.