TwelverShia.net Forum

Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Hani

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2017, 02:03:13 AM »
Reason: Your beliefs are impractical, not useful and have no value for any intelligent being. Rather they are a curse upon humanity as they await a mythical character to save them instead of doing it themselves in addition to dooming Muslims to hell for disbelieving in something unbelievable and vague.

Qur'an: You've proven nothing from the Qur'an and we've refuted all your arguments thus far whether "Ulil-Amr" or "Ilyaseen" or anything else.

Sunnah:
http://www.twelvershia.net/2015/05/12/hadith-of-twelve-caliphs/

Bon apetit Jahil
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Link

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2017, 02:05:42 AM »
People can judge who won those arguments. No need to self-declare your supposed victory constantly.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2017, 02:16:52 AM »
The reason I have stopped replying to your posts directly is that most of what you spew has no consensus amongst any shia sect whatsoever.
Hence you would be like the only person on the face of this whole earth who subscribes to even half your views.
To make it worse you waste even more of a persons time with your essays that hardly make any sense.

Link

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2017, 02:30:26 AM »
no consensus amongst any shia sect whatsoever.

There is no consensus on issues related to Tawheed either.  I don't understand the points you guys try to make, I try my best to show the fallacy and false thinking, but I really don't understand.

Is it so bad that God blessed humanity with a chosen family like he did in the past?

Is it so hard to rely on God for guidance and try to get connected to a mystic link beyond our understanding?

Is is so bad to investigate and seek insight from the Twelve Streams of Mohammad's covenant, and not mix in relying on other streams which are full of pollution for insight?

Is it so bad to believe God can put enough leaders to perserve the teachings of Islam if we don't mix with their leadership and authority others?

Is it so bad to be connected to a leader and guide from God that can empower our sword and help us in ways we do not understand?

Is it so bad that God blesses us through the prayers of an intercessor that is dear to him and knows humans and Jinn more then they know themselves, and makes a mercy to humanity and Jinn?

I don't understand you guys. I don't.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 02:32:42 AM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2017, 02:42:23 AM »
If you was so sincere you would be open to views other than just your own (they literally are just your own in most cases).
So many threads & posts you make yet each time you see yourself as being the only person who is ALWAYS right EVERYTIME.
That is no sincere search for the truth.
In your head YOU ARE THE TRUTH.
I'm just waiting for the moment when you claim a divine position for yourself if you already haven't.

Yes it is so bad!

Link

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2017, 02:52:02 AM »
An Atheist wants one to be open minded and doubt God. The Christian wants us to be open minded and doubt the unity of God. The Jews want us to doubt Mohammad and the majestic Quran. The Sunnis wants us to doubt the Imams. The divergent Shiites want us to doubt the holy Sacred Twelve and the clear affair of the religion as it's always been by God.

There is no shortage of people who wish others to plunge to their level.

I had views that were very much like the masses of Shiites in the past. I've even argued against Imammate in my rebellious times and said there is no conclusive proof Shiism. I gave the devil a chance, believe me.

I am not going to doubt any more. I left that house, thanks to God who guided me to that, and I would not have been guided were it not that God guided me.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 02:57:48 AM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hani

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2017, 08:38:02 PM »

Is it so bad that God blessed humanity with a chosen family like he did in the past?


It is great that God blessed humanity (period), whichever way He decides to bless us, we are grateful.

Quote
Is it so hard to rely on God for guidance and try to get connected to a mystic link beyond our understanding?


That's what EVERY Muslim does, we rely on God who guides us in mysterious ways. We form bonds with our creator in every possible way we can without disobeying His command.


Quote
Is is so bad to investigate and seek insight from the Twelve Streams of Mohammad's covenant, and not mix in relying on other streams which are full of pollution for insight?


Yes, these twelve streams were never pure to begin with. Furthermore, even if they were pure their teachings reached us through a million polluted streams (narrators). In addition to that, we were not required by God to take knowledge from those twelve. Not to forget that the current "stream" is out of commission and dry (no flow of knowledge).

Quote
Is it so bad to believe God can put enough leaders to perserve the teachings of Islam if we don't mix with their leadership and authority others?


He didn't put enough, twelve is a lot less than the time humanity requires to reach the end of its journey. We needed a few hundreds based on this theory. Furthermore, none of those leaders were able to preserve or protect Islamic teachings that were tainted by consensus of Shia. During the presence of the eleven you speak of, religion was tainted and corrupted. They were definitely incapable, the matter was way above their heads and they were clearly ill-equipped to handle such a job.

Quote
Is it so bad to be connected to a leader and guide from God that can empower our sword and help us in ways we do not understand?


No it's great. We strive to connect ourselves to religious leaders and guides whom God Has guided at all times.

Quote
Is it so bad that God blesses us through the prayers of an intercessor that is dear to him and knows humans and Jinn more then they know themselves, and makes a mercy to humanity and Jinn?


God accepts our prayers and has established a connection with his needy and repentant slaves. It is a mercy that we do not need any intercessors to reach him. As for those who wish to supplicate God for us and intercede, we are of course thankful.

Quote
I don't understand you guys. I don't.


If everybody doesn't understand you, then it is a fault in you. Concluding otherwise is arrogance and haughtiness.



عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Link

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2017, 04:55:32 AM »
Quote
It is great that God blessed humanity (period), whichever way He decides to bless us, we are grateful.


The way he does has been shown to be through books he reveals and leaders he appoints. And the Leaders never come alone, they come in groups, succeeding one another.




Quote
That's what EVERY Muslim does, we rely on God who guides us in mysterious ways. We form bonds with our creator in every possible way we can without disobeying His command.


This is got to be a joke. Yeah every Muslim tried to connect to God that is why the abandoned Imam Hussain, that is why they let oppressors rule, etc....


Quote
Yes, these twelve streams were never pure to begin with. Furthermore, even if they were pure their teachings reached us through a million polluted streams (narrators). In addition to that, we were not required by God to take knowledge from those twelve. Not to forget that the current "stream" is out of commission and dry (no flow of knowledge).

There is going to be bad stuff attributed to them, but if we are going to get enlightenment, it's going to be through God's chosen ones, and among the narrations attributed to them through narrators who narrate to them, will be the knowledge and wisdom we seek, and the insight that will help us perceive the truths of the Quran.




Quote
He didn't put enough, twelve is a lot less than the time humanity requires to reach the end of its journey. We needed a few hundreds based on this theory.

If the chosen families came in groups of 200 divinely appointed leaders let's say, then God would have emphasized on that in the past, and emphasized on that number through out the ages.

Aeron would have had that number on his clothes, and Elyas would have that many stones, and Sulaiman's temple would have that many Lions. But we see 12 emphasized on.

Whatever number God knows is best, is what is best.



Quote
No it's great. We strive to connect ourselves to religious leaders and guides whom God Has guided at all times.

Except Quran shows no one should be followed except those he appoints and that clergy never had authority ever and never will.

Quote
God accepts our prayers and has established a connection with his needy and repentant slaves. It is a mercy that we do not need any intercessors to reach him. As for those who wish to supplicate God for us and intercede, we are of course thankful.

The reason is sufficient as a guide but we still need Messengers and holy books to help us. I will go more details into this. I am aware of the line in nahjul balagha in that letter, but I will talk more about why we need intercession another time.


Quote
If everybody doesn't understand you, then it is a fault in you. Concluding otherwise is arrogance and haughtiness.

Who says no one understands me. Or is that you represent all humans?

« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 04:58:57 AM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hani

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2017, 08:53:21 PM »




Quote

The way he does has been shown to be through books he reveals and leaders he appoints. And the Leaders never come alone, they come in groups, succeeding one another.


He revealed his Las book and sent his Last prophet (saw), why do you wish for the continuation of prophet-hood when that is a matter that clearly ended?



Quote

This is got to be a joke. Yeah every Muslim tried to connect to God that is why the abandoned Imam Hussain, that is why they let oppressors rule, etc....


Your religion is the joke, you mock God's pious servants and friends. Husayn made a bad move which resulted in a tragedy, he was advised not to rely on Kufans countless times. Funny that you rely for your religion on the same people Husayn relied on for support, then you're shocked that your beliefs are unreliable. The faithful Muslim must be wise and patient, most of the times revolting with the sword is not the best idea.


It is also funny how you went and tied spirituality right away with politics, shows how shallow your understanding of religion is. We talk about Muslims forming bonds with their creator and you talk about supporting `Alawite revolutions.


Secondly, if your measurement for piety and forming divine bonds relies on revolting, then the Khawarij and the Zaydiyyah must be the most guided of sects. Furthermore, the Companions revolted in al-Harrah of Madinah, guess what happened? They were massacred.



Quote

There is going to be bad stuff attributed to them, but if we are going to get enlightenment, it's going to be through God's chosen ones, and among the narrations attributed to them through narrators who narrate to them, will be the knowledge and wisdom we seek, and the insight that will help us perceive the truths of the Quran.


And we have narrations attributed to the Prophet (saw) from his most reliable Companions, people the entire nation viewed positively and with high regard. Surely, the Prophet (saw) is greater than the other members of his family, so relying on him is more crucial than the liars of Kufah.


Secondly, those you speak of were never chosen. Some of them were much wiser than others and more knowledgeable, other people in the nation were equally knowledgeable or more. That's what's recorded in the Islamic biographies and history books. Except in the Shia's own books, yet they're biased, unreliable and filled with exaggerations so we rightfully dismiss them.


Quote
If the chosen families came in groups of 200 divinely appointed leaders let's say, then God would have emphasized on that in the past, and emphasized on that number through out the ages.


Aeron would have had that number on his clothes, and Elyas would have that many stones, and Sulaiman's temple would have that many Lions. But we see 12 emphasized on.


No, if they were 200, God would have CLEARLY said "Your leaders are 200." Instead of mentioning 200 trees in some garden or 200 coins in some dude's wallet. This is not the DaVinci code, it is God's clear book. The number twelve was only mentioned in God's book with regards to the 12 tribes of Israel, then for each tribe there was a captain and they were given twelve rivers for sustenance. Obviously also the 12 months in a year. So the number twelve was mainly used because the tribes happened to be twelve, if they were thirteen they'd need equal number of leaders with thirteen rivers to live-off, that doesn't necessite that we must be ruled by twelve succeeding leaders.


If every number you see is referring to Imams, what do we do with these numbers?


{By the dawn - and ten nights}


{Its expiation is the feeding of ten needy (people) with such food as you normally offer to your own people}


{but if he lacks the means, let him fast three days during the pilgrimage and seven when he has returned, that is, ten days in all}


{He who brings a good deed shall have ten of its like}


{Or do they say: 'He has forged it' Say (to them): 'Then produce ten forged chapters like it.}


That's ten nights, what does it mean? 10 Imams?


{When Joseph said to his father: 'Father, I saw eleven planets, and the sun and the moon; I saw them prostrating themselves before me'}


Here it's eleven, or maybe 13 if you add the sun & moon, what does that make the number of Imams?


{Over it are nineteen (angels guarding).}


Nineteen Imams maybe?


Besides, if you're so obsessed with numbers, there's more emphasis on other numbers, for instance the number seven. And we know there's a sevener Shia sect (Isma`ilis) and their main arguments were esoteric and numerical.


{I saw in a vision seven fatted cows being devoured by seven lean ones; and seven green ears of corn and seven others withered.}
{He willed to the heaven, and leveled them seven heavens}
{a grain of corn that sprouts seven ears}
{He replied: 'You shall sow for seven years as is your way}
{Thereafter, seven hard years will come upon you}
{It has seven gates, and through each gate a portion of them belong}
{And We have certainly given you, [O Muhammad], seven of the often repeated [verses] and the great Qur'an.}
{It is Allah who has created seven heavens and of the earth [seven] the like of them}
{Which Allah imposed upon them for seven nights and eight days in succession}
etc..etc...


Based on these and many others, the seveners have a greater claim. For us, the use of these numbers in such a misguided way is ignorance.


Simply because God clearly says so:


{It is He who sent down upon thee the Book, wherein are verses clear that are the Essence of the Book, and others ambiguous. As for those in whose hearts is swerving, they follow the ambiguous part, desiring dissension, and desiring its interpretation; and none knows its interpretation, save only God.}


Either-way, you have't answered the argument. I said, 12 are not enough leaders in terms of quantity to lead mankind till the end of times, we needed hundreds of them. Eleven out of the twelve passed in the period of 260 years, we've been alive for 1,400 years and still counting.



Quote

Except Quran shows no one should be followed except those he appoints and that clergy never had authority ever and never will.


Poor Wilayat-ul-Faqih people will be preplexed to hear this.


You are wrong as usual, God does tell us CLEARLY to follow the righteous people who aren't necessarily appointed:


{And the first forerunners [in the faith] among the Muhajireen and the Ansar and those who followed them with good conduct - Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever. That is the great attainment.}


{And whoever opposes the Messenger after guidance has become clear to him and follows other than the way of the believers - We will give him what he has taken and drive him into Hell, and evil it is as a destination.}



Quote

The reason is sufficient as a guide but we still need Messengers and holy books to help us. I will go more details into this. I am aware of the line in nahjul balagha in that letter, but I will talk more about why we need intercession another time.


The believers can ask intercession of other living believers if they wish. They also have to ask God themselves and cannot solely rely on those intercessors. Furthermore, they cannot ask of the dead since that implies the dead are all-hearing and knowing, it also implies that the dead can do actions and we believe our actions are cut after death. The believers who follow the way of the Prophet (saw) will receive his intercession on the day of judgement.











عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: Did Prophet Musa (as) have 13+ Successors.
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2017, 01:55:01 AM »

I had views that were very much like the masses of Shiites in the past. I've even argued against Imammate in my rebellious times and said there is no conclusive proof Shiism. I gave the devil a chance, believe me.



What makes you think the devil has left you after returning to the Dozener Shia Sect?
The struggle still continues till you pass away. An example can be presented from Al Kafi itself.

&feature=youtu.be&t=110

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
1 Replies
1071 Views
Last post March 24, 2015, 03:03:37 PM
by Hani
2 Replies
1707 Views
Last post October 12, 2020, 07:00:36 PM
by Soccer
0 Replies
170 Views
Last post June 10, 2020, 10:23:08 PM
by Soccer
2 Replies
112 Views
Last post October 12, 2020, 06:24:15 PM
by Soccer