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Difference between Nabi and Rasool.

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Soccer

Difference between Nabi and Rasool.
« on: September 17, 2020, 03:50:34 AM »
1. A Rasool is one entrusted to convey God's messages clearly and bring out the higher hidden to the people's understanding.

2. A Nabi is one entrusted to be a channel of a revelation from God to people in a form of a scripture.

3. A Nabi is not necessarily a Rasool and a Rasool is not necessarily a Nabi.

4. A Nabi that is not a  Rasool is one which the clear messages are established that God wants in society - and the Nabi receives a book from God for the people.

5. A Rasool that is a not a Nabi is one who is required to clarify things to the people but doesn't receive a revelation in form of scripture for the people from God.

6. Almost every Nabi has been a Rasool and almost every Rasool a Nabi.

7. The Ulil-Amr were only to take task of being a Rasool if people differed with respect to the truth and religion and became ignorant, and disputes then would have to be solved through God's book but as well a Messenger that clarifies it.

8. If people didn't dispute after Mohammad (s), there was no requirement for the Ulil-Amr (a) to become Rusul.

9. As people deviated and didn't understand Quran properly - the Imams (a) essentially were Messengers as well and had the task of conveying clear messages of God regarding Quran.  

10. Revelation as in words talked to God to people and to Imams is not necessarily all Nubuwa, Nubuwa specifically refers to that revelation which is to be entrusted as scripture to be held on to as proofs from God and insights, specifically a book from God that is a proof and miracle in itself and a lasting one.  

11. Ghadeer khum speech is part of the Resalah of the Rasool, but the exacts words all though proven in Quran, are not part of Quran.  The Resalah and Nubuwa of Mohammad (s) are interlinked, the Quran plays a vital role and the Message of Mohammad plays a vital role in clarifying Quran.

12. The Sunnah was dynamically built with the Quran and Quran was dynamically built with the Sunnah.  

13. 23 years of Nubuwa of Mohammad (s) with his Sunnah - made Islam very strong - and the Quran is foundational in this sense,  but if Imams (a) were to be Anbiya - it would probably be that divisions are worse, and that their revelations would be difficult for humans to accept as scripture and shia sects would not unite on them and Quran would lose it's prestige if revelations of Imams say they were to be Anbiya were to be disputed, and that since God doesn't force humans but wanted to put an end to the Ahlulbayts sent to humanity, in his wisdom, put an end to scripture and revelations revealed to humanity.  

14. The ending of Nubuwa is a big trial - essentially - God is not talking to humans. But the Quran is meant for all the times to come and has been written in a way to guide in all times.  However, darkness in the form of sorcery has made a trial regarding it and people are blind - hence the Imams (a) messages are essential to listen to pertaining to it.

15. Kulayni and our scholars were wrong about the Shiite sect that believed Imams to be Rusul to be out of Islam and out of Shiism, it's rather, the hadiths that Kulayni collected about the difference between Nabi, Rasool and Muhadath that frankly makes no sense what so ever.  

16. All Rusul and all Anbiya are Imams  but it's also the case than an Imam is not necessarily a Rasool or Nabi. For example, our Imams would not have been Messengers if people didn't divide and stook to the clear truths - rather - they would have been guidance and God's Guides true - and expand on knowledge and increase us in it and continue to increase us in guidance, but the clear messages would not need conveying, but rather deeper truths would have been the central role they play.  However, since divisions did occur and the truth covered by sorcery and corruption took place with translations and interpretation of Quran in the most basic essential teachings, they were Messengers as well and hence it's vital we pay attention what is left of their words. This another thing that Al-Kafi get's wrong, in that it makes Imamate something that not all Anbiya or Rusul are in some hadiths, however, in a hadith from Imam Reda (a) - it's confirmed the Anbiya and Rusul all have this station. So there is a contradiction in Al-Kafi in this respect.

17. Mursaleen is umbrella term that covers Rusul, Anbiya, and Imams. When applied to an Imam who is neither a Rasool or Nabi, it means with regards to guidance and knowledge he is sent with to guide humans to and teach them. Also the witnessing role as a witness is something that God sends. Imam Mahdi is specifically called one of these, and hence is a chosen one by God with no ambiguity in the hadiths. When applied to a Non-Nabi Rasool, it means he sent with messages to paraphrase in his words. And when a non-Rasool Nabi - it means as far that Nubuwa, he sent with scripture from God. Again, Imams who would be neither (but ours had to become Messengers because people became ignorant) - would also be sent with role of being witness (vision of people's deeds) and Guidance that plays addition to the messages established - but is additional guidance to the essential messages. Also, if you are sent with miracles, this is another thing his sent ones are sent with.

18. This is an important thing to note: Sunni and their scholars tried to bully the definitions of Nubuwa and Resalah to be inversed in this respect and even to some degree made Nubuwa into the definition of what an Imam is, and made Rasool do the definition of what a Nabi is, to argue, that all such guidance came to an end by the sealing of Nubuwa verse. However, they have no proof from Quran that this is the proper way. Look at the verses of Rusul and Anbiya and you will see Rasools convey clear messages but paraphrase in their own words, and hence "they convey the clear messages from God" while Nubuwa definition wise is not about conveying - the word itself about receiving news from God for the people or receing tidings from God for the people, that means their role as a Nabi is receiving, this refers to their role to channel scripture from God to people, but it's not their message, and hence Nubuwa is about reception.  Don't be bullied by any scholars - and Kulayni was wrong. Don't blindly follow but look at Quran usage of these terms. Also while all Nubuwa is wahy it's not the case all Wahy is Nubuwa.  There is hadith qudsi and also God talks to Pharaoh and he is not a Nabi.. 





"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

TAHIR

Re: Difference between Nabi and Rasool.
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2020, 04:45:16 PM »
Like somebody is going to read it

Abu Muhammad

Re: Difference between Nabi and Rasool.
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2020, 05:52:17 AM »
1. A Rasool is one entrusted to convey God's messages clearly and bring out the higher hidden to the people's understanding.

2. A Nabi is one entrusted to be a channel of a revelation from God to people in a form of a scripture.

3. A Nabi is not necessarily a Rasool and a Rasool is not necessarily a Nabi.

4. A Nabi that is not a  Rasool is one which the clear messages are established that God wants in society - and the Nabi receives a book from God for the people.

5. A Rasool that is a not a Nabi is one who is required to clarify things to the people but doesn't receive a revelation in form of scripture for the people from God.

6. Almost every Nabi has been a Rasool and almost every Rasool a Nabi.

7. The Ulil-Amr were only to take task of being a Rasool if people differed with respect to the truth and religion and became ignorant, and disputes then would have to be solved through God's book but as well a Messenger that clarifies it.

8. If people didn't dispute after Mohammad (s), there was no requirement for the Ulil-Amr (a) to become Rusul.

9. As people deviated and didn't understand Quran properly - the Imams (a) essentially were Messengers as well and had the task of conveying clear messages of God regarding Quran. 

10. Revelation as in words talked to God to people and to Imams is not necessarily all Nubuwa, Nubuwa specifically refers to that revelation which is to be entrusted as scripture to be held on to as proofs from God and insights, specifically a book from God that is a proof and miracle in itself and a lasting one. 

11. Ghadeer khum speech is part of the Resalah of the Rasool, but the exacts words all though proven in Quran, are not part of Quran.  The Resalah and Nubuwa of Mohammad (s) are interlinked, the Quran plays a vital role and the Message of Mohammad plays a vital role in clarifying Quran.

12. The Sunnah was dynamically built with the Quran and Quran was dynamically built with the Sunnah. 

13. 23 years of Nubuwa of Mohammad (s) with his Sunnah - made Islam very strong - and the Quran is foundational in this sense,  but if Imams (a) were to be Anbiya - it would probably be that divisions are worse, and that their revelations would be difficult for humans to accept as scripture and shia sects would not unite on them and Quran would lose it's prestige if revelations of Imams say they were to be Anbiya were to be disputed, and that since God doesn't force humans but wanted to put an end to the Ahlulbayts sent to humanity, in his wisdom, put an end to scripture and revelations revealed to humanity. 

14. The ending of Nubuwa is a big trial - essentially - God is not talking to humans. But the Quran is meant for all the times to come and has been written in a way to guide in all times.  However, darkness in the form of sorcery has made a trial regarding it and people are blind - hence the Imams (a) messages are essential to listen to pertaining to it.

15. Kulayni and our scholars were wrong about the Shiite sect that believed Imams to be Rusul to be out of Islam and out of Shiism, it's rather, the hadiths that Kulayni collected about the difference between Nabi, Rasool and Muhadath that frankly makes no sense what so ever. 

16. All Rusul and all Anbiya are Imams  but it's also the case than an Imam is not necessarily a Rasool or Nabi. For example, our Imams would not have been Messengers if people didn't divide and stook to the clear truths - rather - they would have been guidance and God's Guides true - and expand on knowledge and increase us in it and continue to increase us in guidance, but the clear messages would not need conveying, but rather deeper truths would have been the central role they play.  However, since divisions did occur and the truth covered by sorcery and corruption took place with translations and interpretation of Quran in the most basic essential teachings, they were Messengers as well and hence it's vital we pay attention what is left of their words. This another thing that Al-Kafi get's wrong, in that it makes Imamate something that not all Anbiya or Rusul are in some hadiths, however, in a hadith from Imam Reda (a) - it's confirmed the Anbiya and Rusul all have this station. So there is a contradiction in Al-Kafi in this respect.

17. Mursaleen is umbrella term that covers Rusul, Anbiya, and Imams. When applied to an Imam who is neither a Rasool or Nabi, it means with regards to guidance and knowledge he is sent with to guide humans to and teach them. Also the witnessing role as a witness is something that God sends. Imam Mahdi is specifically called one of these, and hence is a chosen one by God with no ambiguity in the hadiths. When applied to a Non-Nabi Rasool, it means he sent with messages to paraphrase in his words. And when a non-Rasool Nabi - it means as far that Nubuwa, he sent with scripture from God. Again, Imams who would be neither (but ours had to become Messengers because people became ignorant) - would also be sent with role of being witness (vision of people's deeds) and Guidance that plays addition to the messages established - but is additional guidance to the essential messages. Also, if you are sent with miracles, this is another thing his sent ones are sent with.

18. This is an important thing to note: Sunni and their scholars tried to bully the definitions of Nubuwa and Resalah to be inversed in this respect and even to some degree made Nubuwa into the definition of what an Imam is, and made Rasool do the definition of what a Nabi is, to argue, that all such guidance came to an end by the sealing of Nubuwa verse. However, they have no proof from Quran that this is the proper way. Look at the verses of Rusul and Anbiya and you will see Rasools convey clear messages but paraphrase in their own words, and hence "they convey the clear messages from God" while Nubuwa definition wise is not about conveying - the word itself about receiving news from God for the people or receing tidings from God for the people, that means their role as a Nabi is receiving, this refers to their role to channel scripture from God to people, but it's not their message, and hence Nubuwa is about reception.  Don't be bullied by any scholars - and Kulayni was wrong. Don't blindly follow but look at Quran usage of these terms. Also while all Nubuwa is wahy it's not the case all Wahy is Nubuwa.  There is hadith qudsi and also God talks to Pharaoh and he is not a Nabi..

Just blabbering. Not a single reference provided to support those points.

Rationalist

Re: Difference between Nabi and Rasool.
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2020, 03:22:20 PM »
Do 12er Shia believe whatever the Imam says is equal to wahi?


Soccer

Re: Difference between Nabi and Rasool.
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2020, 07:55:54 PM »
Do 12er Shia believe whatever the Imam says is equal to wahi?

I can't speak nor care to, for 12ver Shias.  God's words when you become familiar with his book, are calculated in such a superior way, that those who witness it's wonders and way of become clearer and clearer, deeper in guidance and deeper, that after time, you know it's impossible it's fabricated, and you come to know it's from God.

The words of Ahlulbayt (a) - some of their words (especially when a great amount of it is written (ie. the text are long in this regard)), are also what cannot be fabricated as the devils and liars and transgressors are unable to bring the like of them no matter how hard they tried "indeed they are removed from the hearing" and "it does not befit them nor are they capable".

However they aren't the same as God's words.   As for Hadith Qudsi - there are three possibilities:

1. They are words of God and revelation however, not part of the recitation or Nubuwa.
2. They are actually words of Mohammad (s) and his family (a) - paraphrasing what they learned of Quran... and there is some evidence of this type of speech, paraphrasing what is in Quran.. and they are saying among the subtle messages of God in Quran is this and that.
3. Combination of 1 and 2.

From perspective of Two, it can be said, whether Imams (a) say "Allah said..." or just do a prayer, it's paraphrasing Quran, all their words are light and guidance to Quran.

However, I think 3 is plausible  Some hadith qudsi is paraphrasing what they know God teaches, and others can be actual words he says.  In both cases, none of these constitute Nubuwa.

However, what can make it not 3 and not 1, but only 2, is the fact God doesn't want to speak to humans any words, they can't be sure he said.

Nubuwa is particularly what God establishes of his words as proof which is scripture and a book from him.

The more you reflect how much God hates people attributing him what they don't know, you will find that 2 is the most plausible of them all.  Perhaps you can even become certain.

It's not that God doesn't speak other words to Mohammad (s) then Quran, it's that Mohammad (s) won't share them, because the generations in the future (as opposed to those who directly witness him saying it), cannot verify it to be true.

God is such that you never want to attribute him anything you don't know for certain. This includes his laws, but also any words that don't befit him.

Hadith Qudsi pale in comparison to Quran for a reason. God when he speaks, speaks in a superior way we can verify it's him talking. That is the nature of all his divine books, but Quran is superior in this respect and he spoke in a way differently for all time while before the revelations were meant to be followed up by other revelations.

There maybe some exceptions to the rule - for example, the hadiths of Miraaj - because of the nature of the event, has to be an exception.  But in general, Mohammad (s) and his family (a) are paraphrasing God's teachings in Quran.

The Miraaj hadiths I say this because some versions of it and their nature compliments the Shariah and reality and Quran in such a way, that you can verify it.

So let's add to this, if they are going to quote God it will be in a way we can verify and be certain God actual spoke those words if we reflect and gain enough insight to see that.

Most hadith qudsi however are not of this nature and hence, it's better to believe they are paraphrasing what God teaches in the Quran.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2020, 08:00:20 PM by Soccer »
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Rationalist

Re: Difference between Nabi and Rasool.
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2020, 03:48:52 AM »
If you believe in infallibility of the 12 imam can you answers the following?
1)  Why did Imam Ali (as) appoint Muhammad bin Abi Bakr(ra) as governor, and then was forced to replace him with Malik al Asthar (ra)? Did his infallible decision not allow a protection which blocked the future from harm?
2) Why Imam Ali (as) trusted Ziyad bin Abi with a leadership role?
3) Why he accepted bayah from a majority for Caliphate that didn't believe he was infallible, one of the 12, or believe in the Imamate or inter Ghadir as divine appointment?

Soccer

Re: Difference between Nabi and Rasool.
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2020, 05:36:37 PM »
Your topics are good topics, but it would be totally side-tracking this topic.  Make a thread about each or all of them together (since they seem related), and I will respond there.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

 

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