TwelverShia.net Forum

Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Imamah-Ghaybah => Topic started by: Husayn on December 19, 2016, 09:21:17 PM

Title: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Husayn on December 19, 2016, 09:21:17 PM
Following the 12 Imams is the foundation of Twelver Shiism. They claim that we access true Islam from following them.

Can the Twelvers provide a hadith from each of the 12 Imams that is necessary for us to be Muslims?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be proper Muslims without? Philosophical mumbo-jumbo like "Prayer is really great" doesn't count.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Link on December 20, 2016, 12:22:16 AM
This is a good topic. I will reply after I am done exams.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Hani on December 20, 2016, 09:48:05 PM
They claim that we access true Islam from following them.

Let me give you quick things they can't access through their Imams. Prophetic-Seerah, Hadith grading, Proper Fiqh (W/O Taqiyyah), Tafsir-ul-Qur'an and Qira'aat.

The above are FUNDAMENTALS in Islam and they don't have access to any of it.

So to make your question worthwhile brother Husayn, you should ask: What information did we learn about God's Messenger (saw) through al-Jawad, how reliable are the narrations attributed to al-Jawad, what authentic Fiqh did we gain from al-Jawad, what's al-Jawad's interpretation for different Qur'anic verses, and how did al-Jawad teach Qur'anic recitation?
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Solomon on December 21, 2016, 01:05:36 AM
Following the 12 Imams is the foundation of Twelver Shiism. They claim that we access true Islam from following them.

Can the Twelvers provide a hadith from each of the 12 Imams that is necessary for us to be Muslims?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be proper Muslims without? Philosophical mumbo-jumbo like "Prayer is really great" doesn't count.

Prophet(s) was a warner about the correct path and there must be Imams who should keep guiding on correct path so as people may not go astray.
[Pickthal 13:7] Those who disbelieve say: If only some portent were sent down upon him from his Lord! Thou art a warner only, and for every folk a guide.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: muslim720 on December 21, 2016, 12:34:48 PM
Prophet(s) was a warner about the correct path and there must be Imams who should keep guiding on correct path so as people may not go astray.
[Pickthal 13:7] Those who disbelieve say: If only some portent were sent down upon him from his Lord! Thou art a warner only, and for every folk a guide.

What you did there, genius, was that you first gave us your own narrative and then you found a Qur'anic verse which somewhat (very vaguely) supports your narrative.  Classical Shia tactic!

Without your narrative preceding the (posting of the) verse, the understanding of it is completely different.  And this is exactly what you have done with Imamat.  You explain it and then try to show it from the Qur'an.  The methodology, you adopt, is upside down.  It has to be in the Qur'an for it to be explained.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on December 21, 2016, 03:16:12 PM
Following the 12 Imams is the foundation of Twelver Shiism. They claim that we access true Islam from following them.

Can the Twelvers provide a hadith from each of the 12 Imams that is necessary for us to be Muslims?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be proper Muslims without? Philosophical mumbo-jumbo like "Prayer is really great" doesn't count.

Prophet(s) was a warner about the correct path and there must be Imams who should keep guiding on correct path so as people may not go astray.
[Pickthal 13:7] Those who disbelieve say: If only some portent were sent down upon him from his Lord! Thou art a warner only, and for every folk a guide.

So why is shia hadith sciences, fiqh, tafsir, seerah, all such a mess & so weak & substandard to sunni scholarship?

Either the 'infallibles' failed or they were never infallible & the rafidha never actually truly followed them.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 22, 2016, 12:01:57 AM
Following the 12 Imams is the foundation of Twelver Shiism. They claim that we access true Islam from following them.

Can the Twelvers provide a hadith from each of the 12 Imams that is necessary for us to be Muslims?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be proper Muslims without? Philosophical mumbo-jumbo like "Prayer is really great" doesn't count.

Prophet(s) was a warner about the correct path and there must be Imams who should keep guiding on correct path so as people may not go astray.
[Pickthal 13:7] Those who disbelieve say: If only some portent were sent down upon him from his Lord! Thou art a warner only, and for every folk a guide.

A (hidden) guide who never guides his people for the last 1,100 years and leaving the task of guiding people to fallible scholars?

Isn't that irony that Allah s.w.t. sends to every people a guide (and it a must as you said) and yet the guide hids himself for more than 1,100 years and deprieve human being from guidance? Where is the grace of Allah as Twelvers always claim?
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Solomon on December 22, 2016, 02:09:06 AM

A (hidden) guide who never guides his people for the last 1,100 years and leaving the task of guiding people to fallible scholars?

Isn't that irony that Allah s.w.t. sends to every people a guide (and it a must as you said) and yet the guide hids himself for more than 1,100 years and deprieve human being from guidance? Where is the grace of Allah as Twelvers always claim?
Brother if u are thinking vicegerant of God could not leave people so it is wrong, as it is also obligatory on prophets and imams depending on situation to save his life and leave the people but at the same time they will remain in itself a prophet or Imam from God(ie-Guide).

For Prophet Musa(as) as he left people-
[Pickthal 28:21] So he escaped from thence, fearing, vigilant. He said: My Lord! Deliver me from the wrongdoing folk.

Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 22, 2016, 04:50:31 AM

A (hidden) guide who never guides his people for the last 1,100 years and leaving the task of guiding people to fallible scholars?

Isn't that irony that Allah s.w.t. sends to every people a guide (and it a must as you said) and yet the guide hids himself for more than 1,100 years and deprieve human being from guidance? Where is the grace of Allah as Twelvers always claim?
Brother if u are thinking vicegerant of God could not leave people so it is wrong, as it is also obligatory on prophets and imams depending on situation to save his life and leave the people but at the same time they will remain in itself a prophet or Imam from God(ie-Guide).

For Prophet Musa(as) as he left people-
[Pickthal 28:21] So he escaped from thence, fearing, vigilant. He said: My Lord! Deliver me from the wrongdoing folk.

Who said that the imam could not leave people? Read my post again carefully.

The issue is that he is not guiding anybody, the task he is supposed to do. And this has been going on for more than a thousand years. Or else, the concept of Allah's grace upon human kind by sending infallible guides is just something fabricated by Twelvers.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Solomon on December 22, 2016, 11:11:01 AM

Who said that the imam could not leave people? Read my post again carefully.

The issue is that he is not guiding anybody, the task he is supposed to do. And this has been going on for more than a thousand years. Or else, the concept of Allah's grace upon human kind by sending infallible guides is just something fabricated by Twelvers.
Brother you talked about leaving the people to falliable scholars thatswhy I told Prophet/Imam can leave but anyways u know it.
Firstly,It's wrong he never guided. Infact Imam guided peoples ,even verbally, not only thru his 4 deputies during minor occultation but also during major occultation numerous incident of meeting of Imam with trustworthy grand scholars is in books.
Secondly,meeting with any one solely depends on Imam and that person's godliness.

Could you please tell how prophet(sawa) was mercy for all worlds? This will make this matter more clearer .
21:107" And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds."
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 22, 2016, 02:16:20 PM

Who said that the imam could not leave people? Read my post again carefully.

The issue is that he is not guiding anybody, the task he is supposed to do. And this has been going on for more than a thousand years. Or else, the concept of Allah's grace upon human kind by sending infallible guides is just something fabricated by Twelvers.

Brother you talked about leaving the people to falliable scholars thatswhy I told Prophet/Imam can leave but anyways u know it.

I know what? Brother, clearly you failed to understand the point behind that statement. You arguing thing that I have no argument at all.

The whole point is about guidance. To make it clearer to you, error-free guidance. According to Twelvers, this guidance should and could only come from infallibles. But now you guys are relying on the fallibles. How can you be sure that the guidance from fallible scholars is free from error? If you can't, then the concept of Allah's grace upon human kind by sending infallible guides is just something fabricated by Twelvers.

Firstly,It's wrong he never guided. Infact Imam guided peoples ,even verbally, not only thru his 4 deputies during minor occultation but also during major occultation numerous incident of meeting of Imam with trustworthy grand scholars is in books.
Secondly,meeting with any one solely depends on Imam and that person's godliness.

Does that suit to what you call Allah's grace upon human being by sending infallible guide to people? You tell me.

Could you please tell how prophet(sawa) was mercy for all worlds? This will make this matter more clearer .
21:107" And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds."

Read these two ayat in Surah al-Anfal. They explain the verse you quoted.

8:32
وَإِذْ قَالُوا اللَّهُمَّ إِنْ كَانَ هَٰذَا هُوَ الْحَقَّ مِنْ عِنْدِكَ فَأَمْطِرْ عَلَيْنَا حِجَارَةً مِنَ السَّمَاءِ أَوِ ائْتِنَا بِعَذَابٍ أَلِيمٍ

And  [remember]  when  they  said,  "O Allah ,  if  this  should  be  the  truth  from  You,  then rain  down  upon  us  stones  from  the  sky  or  bring  us  a  painful  punishment."

8:33
وَمَا كَانَ اللَّهُ لِيُعَذِّبَهُمْ وَأَنْتَ فِيهِمْ ۚ وَمَا كَانَ اللَّهُ مُعَذِّبَهُمْ وَهُمْ يَسْتَغْفِرُونَ

But Allah would  not  punish  them  while  you,  [O  Muhammad],  are  among  them,  and Allah would  not  punish  them  while  they  seek  forgiveness.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Solomon on December 23, 2016, 01:32:13 AM
I know what? Brother, clearly you failed to understand the point behind that statement. You arguing thing that I have no argument at all.

The whole point is about guidance. To make it clearer to you, error-free guidance. According to Twelvers, this guidance should and could only come from infallibles. But now you guys are relying on the fallibles. How can you be sure that the guidance from fallible scholars is free from error? If you can't, then the concept of Allah's grace upon human kind by sending infallible guides is just something fabricated by Twelvers.

Does that suit to what you call Allah's grace upon human being by sending infallible guide to people? You tell me.
We agreed that a prophet/Imam can leave the people , so brother, in that situation people have to look for scholars to access knowledge. If you are thinking continuous verbal & apparent guidance from Infalliable guide should be there then it will occur only when Imam will re-appear. When ever a prophet/Imam leaves the people its because of peoples being non supportive against tyrants so people have to suffer up till his reappearance form non-continuous verbal & apparent guidance.

As far as you brought the point of God's grace,for us imams(/prophet's) very existence on earth ,being God's grace, stop God's wrath on earth when numerous brutal crime is going on earth today and then also God left people with the door open for them towards truth.

If u or I didn't get the point please ask one line question so that I could clearly know ur exact point.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Link on December 23, 2016, 03:44:19 AM
One of the important hadiths from Imam Jewad is that the one who passively watches an oppression (does nothing to stop it), the one who supports an oppression, and the oppressor himself of that oppression....all are partners.

I believe most of the world problems would be solved if this hadith was acted upon for example.  If we all took responsibility of oppression and not just passively watched it, and felt we have no role in it.


Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Sheikh on December 23, 2016, 03:55:04 AM
Brother if u are thinking vicegerant of God could not leave people so it is wrong, as it is also obligatory on prophets and imams depending on situation to save his life and leave the people but at the same time they will remain in itself a prophet or Imam from God(ie-Guide).


So the Prophet (saws) was in less danger when he was surrounded entirely by kuffar than the 12th Imam is now with millions of Shia to protect him?


Imam Ali (ra) was in less danger when the entire Ummah conspired to withhold his rightful leadership?


Imam Hussain (ra) was in less danger when he walked into a suicide mission that he supposedly had foreknowledge of?


All of these righteous men (peace be upon them all) were in less danger than your 12th Imam is in today when he had an earth full of Shi'ites to protect and support him?


SubhanAllah, if they were all in less danger than your 12th Imam, what does that say about you Shias that can't even protect one man?
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Solomon on December 23, 2016, 05:49:34 AM
Brother if u are thinking vicegerant of God could not leave people so it is wrong, as it is also obligatory on prophets and imams depending on situation to save his life and leave the people but at the same time they will remain in itself a prophet or Imam from God(ie-Guide).


So the Prophet (saws) was in less danger when he was surrounded entirely by kuffar than the 12th Imam is now with millions of Shia to protect him?


Imam Ali (ra) was in less danger when the entire Ummah conspired to withhold his rightful leadership?


Imam Hussain (ra) was in less danger when he walked into a suicide mission that he supposedly had foreknowledge of?


All of these righteous men (peace be upon them all) were in less danger than your 12th Imam is in today when he had an earth full of Shi'ites to protect and support him?


SubhanAllah, if they were all in less danger than your 12th Imam, what does that say about you Shias that can't even protect one man?
Yep brother ,Prophet(sawa) was in danger and then he left meccan people because of not having even minimum required number supportive people(ie- ppl of highest levels of faith) .
Same for Imam ali(as) for not having even minimum required number supportive people(ie- ppl of highest levels of faith) to fight against oppressive ppl.
As for Imam Hussain(as) he inteded towards kufa not for karbala(with women & children) but situation changed on the way & he was taken to karbala .Every action of imams is based on conditions and situations .

But when things come to Imam Mahdi(as) the oppressive rulers well knew that 12th Imam will rule over the world and all kingdom will be under his authority as per shias. So they left no chance to oppress 11th imam and they were not to leave any chance to eliminate 12th Imam as there whole government was in danger in same way as firon and namrod were doing before advent of musa(as) and ibrahim(as).
Lastly ,bro when those minimum number of shias with highest level of faith will be there at a time to which imam wants, who will be with imam when imam will break oppressive rulers of today then imam will reappear.......yes I will say most of shias r not of that level today though sign of reappearnce r geting fulfilled day by day.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Qizilbash_Safavid on December 23, 2016, 05:55:51 AM
Brother if u are thinking vicegerant of God could not leave people so it is wrong, as it is also obligatory on prophets and imams depending on situation to save his life and leave the people but at the same time they will remain in itself a prophet or Imam from God(ie-Guide).


So the Prophet (saws) was in less danger when he was surrounded entirely by kuffar than the 12th Imam is now with millions of Shia to protect him?


Imam Ali (ra) was in less danger when the entire Ummah conspired to withhold his rightful leadership?


Imam Hussain (ra) was in less danger when he walked into a suicide mission that he supposedly had foreknowledge of?


All of these righteous men (peace be upon them all) were in less danger than your 12th Imam is in today when he had an earth full of Shi'ites to protect and support him?


SubhanAllah, if they were all in less danger than your 12th Imam, what does that say about you Shias that can't even protect one man?

The main reason for The ghaybah isn't because his life is in danger, it's also because we are not ready for his return. According to our hadiths even shia will fight against the Imam (as), it has nothing to do with how many shias there are. When will Isa (as) return? Wasn't Yahya (as) in more danger than him? Why didn't Yahya (as) go into Ghaybah like Isa (as)?
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 23, 2016, 11:07:46 PM
The main reason for The ghaybah isn't because his life is in danger, it's also because we are not ready for his return. According to our hadiths even shia will fight against the Imam (as), it has nothing to do with how many shias there are. When will Isa (as) return? Wasn't Yahya (as) in more danger than him? Why didn't Yahya (as) go into Ghaybah like Isa (as)?

Not ready to return is not the reason for going into ghaybah in the first place. That's the reason for why he does not re-appear.

The very reason he went into ghaybah in the first place according to Twelvers was because he was afraid and freightened of being killed.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Qizilbash_Safavid on December 23, 2016, 11:09:21 PM
The main reason for The ghaybah isn't because his life is in danger, it's also because we are not ready for his return. According to our hadiths even shia will fight against the Imam (as), it has nothing to do with how many shias there are. When will Isa (as) return? Wasn't Yahya (as) in more danger than him? Why didn't Yahya (as) go into Ghaybah like Isa (as)?

Not ready to return is not the reason for going into ghaybah in the first place. That's the reason for why he does not re-appear.

The very reason he went into ghaybah in the first place according to Twelvers was because he was afraid and freightened of being killed.

Yep, same way Isa (as) went into hiding, and Prophet Muhammad (saw), are they all cave dwelling  cowards too now?
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Husayn on December 23, 2016, 11:22:46 PM
Looks like this thread is getting derailed.

Please stick to the topic.

Can the Twelver Shi'a demonstate to us why all 12 Imams are necessary for us to know true Islam?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Qizilbash_Safavid on December 23, 2016, 11:35:24 PM
Looks like this thread is getting derailed.

Please stick to the topic.

Can the Twelver Shi'a demonstate to us why all 12 Imams are necessary for us to know true Islam?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?

Bro r u serious? What has ur caliphs ever done? There is a video of a Sunni sheikh who became shia, one of his reasons was that there isn't 3 narrations of Abu bakr umar or uthman saying something, umar himself said "without Ali umar would have been destroyed"

And ur 4 Imams of ahle sunnah were students of Jafar Sadiq (As), don't ever say something that stupid again. Here's a nice quote By Abu bakr

"May Allah not put me in a position where I dont have access to Ali to solve it for me"
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 24, 2016, 12:02:50 AM
Looks like this thread is getting derailed.

Please stick to the topic.

Can the Twelver Shi'a demonstate to us why all 12 Imams are necessary for us to know true Islam?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?
Would like to see your answer to Brother Husayn's questions here...

And ur 4 Imams of ahle sunnah were students of Jafar Sadiq (As), don't ever say something that stupid again.
Don't call other people saying something stupid if you don't know the full story.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Hani on December 24, 2016, 01:46:57 AM
The main reason for The ghaybah isn't because his life is in danger, it's also because we are not ready for his return. According to our hadiths even shia will fight against the Imam (as), it has nothing to do with how many shias there are. When will Isa (as) return? Wasn't Yahya (as) in more danger than him? Why didn't Yahya (as) go into Ghaybah like Isa (as)?

Not ready to return is not the reason for going into ghaybah in the first place. That's the reason for why he does not re-appear.

The very reason he went into ghaybah in the first place according to Twelvers was because he was afraid and freightened of being killed.

Yep, same way Isa (as) went into hiding, and Prophet Muhammad (saw), are they all cave dwelling  cowards too now?

Yet you claim `Umar also avoided harm out of fear but for some reason you insult `Umar and claim him a coward.

On the other hand, when your 12th leader runs without a trace out of fear from death for 1,200 years, suddenly you start quoting narrations about the prophets running away. Why not insult them too for consistency sake?
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Hani on December 24, 2016, 01:50:00 AM
Brother if u are thinking vicegerant of God could not leave people so it is wrong, as it is also obligatory on prophets and imams depending on situation to save his life and leave the people but at the same time they will remain in itself a prophet or Imam from God(ie-Guide).


So the Prophet (saws) was in less danger when he was surrounded entirely by kuffar than the 12th Imam is now with millions of Shia to protect him?


Imam Ali (ra) was in less danger when the entire Ummah conspired to withhold his rightful leadership?


Imam Hussain (ra) was in less danger when he walked into a suicide mission that he supposedly had foreknowledge of?


All of these righteous men (peace be upon them all) were in less danger than your 12th Imam is in today when he had an earth full of Shi'ites to protect and support him?


SubhanAllah, if they were all in less danger than your 12th Imam, what does that say about you Shias that can't even protect one man?

The main reason for The ghaybah isn't because his life is in danger, it's also because we are not ready for his return. According to our hadiths even shia will fight against the Imam (as), it has nothing to do with how many shias there are. When will Isa (as) return? Wasn't Yahya (as) in more danger than him? Why didn't Yahya (as) go into Ghaybah like Isa (as)?

All your top scholars and thinkers say it's due to fear of death, this is supported by your narrations.

As for this "getting ready" business, it's a vague excuse thrown to confuse people as to why this mythical creature does not show its face. How about you go take a shower, brush your hair and get ready for his return already?
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 26, 2016, 03:46:51 AM
Following the 12 Imams is the foundation of Twelver Shiism. They claim that we access true Islam from following them.

Can the Twelvers provide a hadith from each of the 12 Imams that is necessary for us to be Muslims?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be proper Muslims without? Philosophical mumbo-jumbo like "Prayer is really great" doesn't count.

This is a good topic. I will reply after I am done exams.

Link, I thought you want to write a reply to this topic.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Solomon on December 26, 2016, 05:42:28 AM

Following the 12 Imams is the foundation of Twelver Shiism. They claim that we access true Islam from following them.

Can the Twelvers provide a hadith from each of the 12 Imams that is necessary for us to be Muslims?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be proper Muslims without? Philosophical mumbo-jumbo like "Prayer is really great" doesn't count.
Hi, brother u r there  I thought we r done.
As we have discussed above they were guide, so like every imam he also guided people in his time towards the religion of Prophet(sawa) so that followers of truth may not go astray.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 26, 2016, 09:24:09 AM
I stopped due to this:

Looks like this thread is getting derailed.

Please stick to the topic.

Can the Twelver Shi'a demonstate to us why all 12 Imams are necessary for us to know true Islam?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?

By the way, you insist.

We agreed that a prophet/Imam can leave the people , so brother, in that situation people have to look for scholars to access knowledge. If you are thinking continuous verbal & apparent guidance from Infalliable guide should be there then it will occur only when Imam will re-appear. When ever a prophet/Imam leaves the people its because of peoples being non supportive against tyrants so people have to suffer up till his reappearance form non-continuous verbal & apparent guidance.

Wow… I can't believe what I saw here. Your hidden Imam indiscriminately puts billions of people into suffering for more than a thousand years.  That's interesting. That is what you call God's grace.

As far as you brought the point of God's grace,for us imams(/prophet's) very existence on earth ,being God's grace, stop God's wrath on earth when numerous brutal crime is going on earth today and then also God left people with the door open for them towards truth.

What you stated there was GOD's MERCY and not GRACE. Learn the difference.

Read the excerp below from one of your Twelvers website Al-Islam.org. Whenever I stressed about infallible guide and God's grace according to Twelvers, this is what I meant:

"Imamat is the Grace (Lutf) of Allah which attracts mankind towards His obedience and keeps them away from His disobedience, without compelling them in any way. When Allah orders mankind to do something yet He is aware that either they can not do it, or it is very difficult for them to do it without His assistance, then if Allah does not provide His assistance, He would be contradicting His own aim. Obviously, such negligence is evil according to reason.

As such, Grace (Lutf) is one of Allah’s character, and He is purified/exalted from inadequacy of lacking such attribute."


Also:

"If a divinely appointed leader is not infallible (Ma’sum), he would be liable to errors and to deceive others as well. In such a case, no implicit confidence may be placed in his sayings/commands/actions. A divinely appointed Imam is the most liable person to rule as the head of the community, and people are supposed to follow him in every matter.

Now if he commits a sin, people would be bound to follow him in that sin as well, because of their ignorance of whether that action is sin or not (Keep in mind the assumption that Imam is the most knowledgeable person in his community).

Such a situation is not acceptable by the Grace of Allah since obedience in sin is evil, unlawful, and forbidden. Moreover it would mean that leader should be obeyed and disobeyed at the same time, that is obedience to him is obligatory yet forbidden which is clearly a contradiction and is not commendable."


Now, tell me who are you following for the past 1,100 years? Infallible imam or fallible Ulama'?If fallible Ulama', how do you know that those Ulama' are free from error and free from sin? If you said they are not free from error and sin, then I quoted again the above paragraph from Al-Islam.org :

"Such a situation is not acceptable by the Grace of Allah since obedience in sin is evil, unlawful, and forbidden. Moreover it would mean that leader should be obeyed and disobeyed at the same time, that is obedience to him is obligatory yet forbidden which is clearly a contradiction and is not commendable."

Frankly speaking, the deeper I went into Twelvers Shiism, the more confusing I became.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 26, 2016, 09:26:40 AM
Yeah... Brother Solomon, I thinks you should also start answering Bro Hussein' question there...
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Solomon on December 26, 2016, 10:48:44 AM
I stopped due to this:

Looks like this thread is getting derailed.

Please stick to the topic.

Can the Twelver Shi'a demonstate to us why all 12 Imams are necessary for us to know true Islam?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?

By the way, you insist.
Firstly, we were talking with respect to (12)imam/guide so no where it was derailed but due to another shia guy it was derailed--maybe to him bro hussain was pointing otherwise he should have pointed at very begining when we started....No i don't insist ,its up to u to discuss, u left halfway and started commenting on others so I thought we r undone. Again I don't insist brother.
Anyways coming to point-


Wow… I can't believe what I saw here. Your hidden Imam indiscriminately puts billions of people into suffering for more than a thousand years.  That's interesting. That is what you call God's grace.
Brother we earlier discussed the oppressive situation due to which Imam went in occultation(as it was obligatory on Imam).As our prophet(sawa) left meccans or musa(as)left his ppl.
Community  suffers b/c of being non-supportive

What you stated there was GOD's MERCY and not GRACE. Learn the difference.

Read the excerp below from one of your Twelvers website Al-Islam.org. Whenever I stressed about infallible guide and God's grace according to Twelvers, this is what I meant:

"Imamat is the Grace (Lutf) of Allah which attracts mankind towards His obedience and keeps them away from His disobedience, without compelling them in any way. When Allah orders mankind to do something yet He is aware that either they can not do it, or it is very difficult for them to do it without His assistance, then if Allah does not provide His assistance, He would be contradicting His own aim. Obviously, such negligence is evil according to reason.

As such, Grace (Lutf) is one of Allah’s character, and He is purified/exalted from inadequacy of lacking such attribute."


Also:

"If a divinely appointed leader is not infallible (Ma’sum), he would be liable to errors and to deceive others as well. In such a case, no implicit confidence may be placed in his sayings/commands/actions. A divinely appointed Imam is the most liable person to rule as the head of the community, and people are supposed to follow him in every matter.

Now if he commits a sin, people would be bound to follow him in that sin as well, because of their ignorance of whether that action is sin or not (Keep in mind the assumption that Imam is the most knowledgeable person in his community).

Such a situation is not acceptable by the Grace of Allah since obedience in sin is evil, unlawful, and forbidden. Moreover it would mean that leader should be obeyed and disobeyed at the same time, that is obedience to him is obligatory yet forbidden which is clearly a contradiction and is not commendable."


Now, tell me who are you following for the past 1,100 years? Infallible imam or fallible Ulama'?If fallible Ulama', how do you know that those Ulama' are free from error and free from sin? If you said they are not free from error and sin, then I quoted again the above paragraph from Al-Islam.org :

"Such a situation is not acceptable by the Grace of Allah since obedience in sin is evil, unlawful, and forbidden. Moreover it would mean that leader should be obeyed and disobeyed at the same time, that is obedience to him is obligatory yet forbidden which is clearly a contradiction and is not commendable."

Frankly speaking, the deeper I went into Twelvers Shiism, the more confusing I became.
the site which you quoted is talking about grace and I consider his grace to humans under his mercy.
Turning towards scholars will provide more accurate knowledge during occultation.God has given his grace but ppl didn't supported him in normal condition also thatswhy ppl suffers and are responsible.Yep God has completed his grace but ppl went below even normal level towards supporting him
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 26, 2016, 03:20:50 PM
Firstly, we were talking with respect to (12)imam/guide so no where it was derailed but due to another shia guy it was derailed--

Not really. Brother Husayn asked whether the Twelver Shi'a can demonsrate to us why all 12 Imams are necessary for us to know true Islam UNLESS you are in agreement with him since you were, somehow, just prove that it is not necessary to have imam for us to know the true Islam. Occultation itself shows that people can't get access to the "true" Islam regardless the reason he went into occulatation.


Brother we earlier discussed the oppressive situation due to which Imam went in occultation(as it was obligatory on Imam).As our prophet(sawa) left meccans or musa(as)left his ppl.
Community  suffers b/c of being non-supportive

As far as I know the reasons given by Twelvers, he went hiding because he was freigthened and afraid of being killed. There are sayings of your imams from your books that clearly stated that. Prophet s.a.w. left Mecca because of procecution of Qurasy and death threat. Was he afraid? Never. We could see how calm he was during Hijrah.

By the way, Prophet s.a.w. left Mecca with his followers. So, he s.a.w. is accessable to his followers for guidance and hence, it was not the same situation as your hidden imam.


the site which you quoted is talking about grace and I consider his grace to humans under his mercy.

Please elaborate…


God has given his grace but ppl didn't supported him in normal condition also thatswhy ppl suffers and are responsible.Yep God has completed his grace but ppl went below even normal level towards supporting him

God INDISCRIMINATELY punished billions of people from generations after generations for the past thousand years and deprieve them from guidance. Yup, what a just God you got. And what an excuse too.


Turning towards scholars will provide more accurate knowledge during occultation.

You know what. In the end, both Sunni and Twelvers methodologies are in principle the same. Forget about the need for infallible guides after the demise of Prophet s.a.w. We both depend on fallible people to derive guidance from the words of Allah and the words of ma'sum. The major difference is Sunni has far more superior and sound traditions and sciences compared to Twelvers.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Solomon on December 27, 2016, 02:01:36 AM

Not really. Brother Husayn asked whether the Twelver Shi'a can demonsrate to us why all 12 Imams are necessary for us to know true Islam UNLESS you are in agreement with him since you were, somehow, just prove that it is not necessary to have imam for us to know the true Islam. Occultation itself shows that people can't get access to the "true" Islam regardless the reason he went into occulatation.
As said earlier there is a guide for every people and our prophet was a warner only as per Quran.
13:7- And those who disbelieve say: Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord? You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.
These guides r infalliable imams and as for number 12 caliphs sahih bukhari helps us.


As far as I know the reasons given by Twelvers, he went hiding because he was freigthened and afraid of being killed. There are sayings of your imams from your books that clearly stated that. Prophet s.a.w. left Mecca because of procecution of Qurasy and death threat. Was he afraid? Never. We could see how calm he was during Hijrah.

By the way, Prophet s.a.w. left Mecca with his followers. So, he s.a.w. is accessable to his followers for guidance and hence, it was not the same situation as your hidden imam.
Again u came up with something that our scholars said I also know this there are various other factors as well but I didn't quote b/c it wasn't in exact line of conversation according to me.Anyways being frightened for ones life is not sign of cowardness always.If a vicegerent of God fears about his life maybe in danger and task given  by God is not completed then any such fear for life is for God and is correct.
28:21- So he escaped from thence, fearing, vigilant. He said: My Lord! Deliver me from the wrongdoing folk.
here fear of ulul azm prophet was also correct,and I quoted abt our prophet to show one can leave ppl if needed.

the site which you quoted is talking about grace and I consider his grace to humans under his mercy.

Please elaborate…

God INDISCRIMINATELY punished billions of people from generations after generations for the past thousand years and deprieve them from guidance. Yup, what a just God you got. And what an excuse too.
U came up with that point if u think his grace is not under sky of mercy then you must elaborate.

God has not indiscriminately made ppl suffered but ppl themseleves were responsible as one generation is responsible for upbringing of other generation and so on, so untill community don't produce such a generation, who can be with imam when imam breaks oppressors and establishes just government, community suffers and God is just as always
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 27, 2016, 03:51:41 AM
Brother Husayn's questions were:

1. Can Twelver Shi'a DEMONSTRATE to us WHY all 12 Imams are NECCESSARY for us TO KNOW true Islam?

2. What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

3. If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?

And your answer was:

As said earlier there is a guide for every people and our prophet was a warner only as per Quran.
13:7- And those who disbelieve say: Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord? You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.
These guides r infalliable imams and as for number 12 caliphs sahih bukhari helps us.

Great! Typical Twelvers response that does not addressing the questions. Read again the question carefully and try again.

By the way, from the ayah, it shows that Prophet s.a.w. was not a guide. Only a warner. Good, another problem created.

Again u came up with something that our scholars said I also know this there are various other factors as well but I didn't quote b/c it wasn't in exact line of conversation according to me.Anyways being frightened for ones life is not sign of cowardness always.If a vicegerent of God fears about his life maybe in danger and task given  by God is not completed then any such fear for life is for God and is correct.
28:21- So he escaped from thence, fearing, vigilant. He said: My Lord! Deliver me from the wrongdoing folk.
here fear of ulul azm prophet was also correct,and I quoted abt our prophet to show one can leave ppl if needed.

Sure, we both agree that he was fear for his life even though for you that was not the sign of cowardness.

By the way, I repeat the point that you missed up there; Prophet s.a.w. left Mecca with his followers. So, he s.a.w. was accessable to his followers for guidance and hence, it was clearly not the same situation as your hidden imam.

God has not indiscriminately made ppl suffered but ppl themseleves were responsible as one generation is responsible for upbringing of other generation and so on, so untill community don't produce such a generation, who can be with imam when imam breaks oppressors and establishes just government, community suffers and God is just as always

Nope. You are wrong. That's not the only conditions. Even though people produce such generation, they will still be deprieved of guidance since your imam will not come out until the other signs manifested e.g. coming of Sufyani, etc.

So, don't blame people for that. Blame your "God" since he INDICRIMINATELY punished people NO MATTER WHAT PEOPLE DO. What a justice.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Solomon on December 27, 2016, 10:26:27 AM
""""Nope. You are wrong. That's not the only conditions. Even though people produce such generation, they will still be deprieved of guidance since your imam will not come out until the other signs manifested e.g. coming of Sufyani, etc. """

[Sorry my QUOTE property wasn't working ]

I've never said that's the only reason.I just took one reason to discuss. There must be that many number of ,highly ranked in faith ,supporters at a time as needed to establish the rule .If there were ppl of that level asu say then we also get numerous incident in shia book of there meeting with Imam/Guide but they were not that many and yes not only this but there are many more factors as well.
Sufayani etc r signs(ie- effects not cause) of the time near to reappearence.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 27, 2016, 11:39:16 AM
""""Nope. You are wrong. That's not the only conditions. Even though people produce such generation, they will still be deprieved of guidance since your imam will not come out until the other signs manifested e.g. coming of Sufyani, etc. """

[Sorry my QUOTE property wasn't working ]

I've never said that's the only reason.I just took one reason to discuss. There must be that many number of ,highly ranked in faith ,supporters at a time as needed to establish the rule .If there were ppl of that level asu say then we also get numerous incident in shia book of there meeting with Imam/Guide but they were not that many and yes not only this but there are many more factors as well.
Sufayani etc r signs(ie- effects not cause) of the time near to reappearence.

You didn't get the point, did you? By putting all those conditions and signs, how can God blame people and put them into suffering? Some of them are just beyond human control.

The most appropriate one is to blame God himself (na'udzubillahi min dzalik). He put all those signs and conditions for re-appearance and then INDICRIMINATELY punished people and deprieve them from guidance NO MATTER WHAT PEOPLE DO. 

And also, please remember that there are hundreds if not thousands of narrations in your books stating that the number of imam would be 12 and the 12th would go into occultation. It shows that occultation would come regardless. It was foretold. It is as if God purposely wants to deprieve human being from His guidance and punish His creation anyway.

You see. The deeper I go into Twelverism, the more confusing I become. But luckily I'm not alone. Twelvers in 3rd & 4th centuries Hijra were also the same.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on December 27, 2016, 12:11:07 PM
Tbh soloman & link seem to reproduce the same philsophical mumbo jumbo again & again.
I could reproduce everything they say & replace the number 12 with another number & replace the word Imams with christ or saints yet the whole theme would still carry.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Solomon on December 27, 2016, 03:22:33 PM
Quote
You didn't get the point, did you? By putting all those conditions and signs, how can God blame people and put them into suffering? Some of them are just beyond human control.
And also, please remember that there are hundreds if not thousands of narrations in your books stating that the number of imam would be 12 and the 12th would go into occultation. It shows that occultation would come regardless. It was foretold. It is as if God purposely wants to deprieve human being from His guidance and punish His creation anyway.

As per islam in last era many different types of evil would be occuring and there r many signs of Doomsday would be closer as told by prophet(sawa) so this doesn't mean God purposely wanted evil to be spread on earth but it was as per situation & condition and it was in knowledge of Prophet so he foretold. Same way foretelling narrations related to occultation was in knowledge of Prophet and imams . As God purposely didn't wanted numerous evil to be spread but its b/c of ppl in same way he purposely didn't wanted ppl to be deprived but occultation was b/c of situation.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on December 27, 2016, 04:23:56 PM
Your sig:

----------------------------------

"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)
Messenger of Allah said:
"For whoever I am his mawla, 'Ali is his mawla".


-----------------------------------
Astagfirullah. So you're saying Allah ordered the Prophet (SAW) to announce Ali's appointment as leader & Allah warned the Prophet (SAW) of the repurcussions if he didn't announce it i.e he (SAW) would have failed in his task.

Astagfirullah. You disgrace the Prophet (SAW) to elevate Ali.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Hadrami on December 28, 2016, 02:12:13 AM
Following the 12 Imams is the foundation of Twelver Shiism. They claim that we access true Islam from following them.

Can the Twelvers provide a hadith from each of the 12 Imams that is necessary for us to be Muslims?

What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be proper Muslims without? Philosophical mumbo-jumbo like "Prayer is really great" doesn't count.

The current situation of 12er shias in the last 1000+yr is proof that we don't need imam (mahdi). Shia have replaced imam with fallible scholars. I don't see any refutation to this fact can hold any weight.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 28, 2016, 04:07:25 AM
Brother Solomon, you are still trying to clutch on a straw, aren't you? You are trying to make a anology but the anology you gave was not addressing the argument at all. You guys do not believe in qiyas but still trying to use one when in desperation. No wonder you failed miserably whenever you are trying to make one on anything.

My argument was that in Twelvers, occultation is already foretold in your imams' narrations. There are hundreds if not thousands of them in your books. Simply said, occultation would happened regardless. And for the re-appearance, according to Twelvers, there are signs and conditions and many of them are just beyond human control. Therefore, why does Allah put suffering to people by depriving them from the guidance of the imam whereas some of the conditions and signs are just beyond human control? It is as if God purposely wants to deprieve human being from His guidance and punish His creation anyway.

And out of sudden, you said:

As per islam in last era many different types of evil would be occuring and there r many signs of Doomsday would be closer as told by prophet(sawa) so this doesn't mean God purposely wanted evil to be spread on earth but it was as per situation & condition and it was in knowledge of Prophet so he foretold.

Same way foretelling narrations related to occultation was in knowledge of Prophet and imams . As God purposely didn't wanted numerous evil to be spread but its b/c of ppl in same way he purposely didn't wanted ppl to be deprived but occultation was b/c of situation.

Are you in your right frame of mind when you typed those? The only same theme in both your and my statements is "foretold story". But that's not the argument at all. The argument is why Allah punished people for things that are beyond their control.

Can't you comprehend that simple premise? Please try again...

The current situation of 12er shias in the last 1000+yr is proof that we don't need imam (mahdi). Shia have replaced imam with fallible scholars. I don't see any refutation to this fact can hold any weight.

Indeed brother.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 28, 2016, 04:33:12 AM
Brother Husayn's questions were:

1. Can Twelver Shi'a DEMONSTRATE to us WHY all 12 Imams are NECCESSARY for us TO KNOW true Islam?

2. What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

3. If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?

And your answer was:

As said earlier there is a guide for every people and our prophet was a warner only as per Quran.
13:7- And those who disbelieve say: Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord? You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.
These guides r infalliable imams and as for number 12 caliphs sahih bukhari helps us.

Great! Typical Twelvers response that does not addressing the questions. Read again the question carefully and try again.

And don't forget to respond to this too brother Solomon since this is the actual topic of this thread.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Husayn on December 28, 2016, 05:54:45 AM
This thread demonstrates the issue that the average 12ver has.

They are obsessed with proving the need for the 12 Imams "philosophically", but can provide no evidence for why we need them practically.

Ask any average 12ver to give you a single quote from al-Jawad that they cannot practise their deen without - and they will fail.

This is because the truth is, the only reason the 12vers need al-Jawad is simply to come up with 12 divinely appointed infallibles as a need of 'aqeedah.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Hani on December 28, 2016, 07:33:20 AM
If their Imam `Ali al-Hadi died without a son, they would have claimed he had a hidden son and that this hidden son later got married and received another hidden child = 12.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Solomon on December 28, 2016, 12:36:07 PM
Brother Solomon, you are still trying to clutch on a straw, aren't you? You are trying to make a anology but the anology you gave was not addressing the argument at all. You guys do not believe in qiyas but still trying to use one when in desperation. No wonder you failed miserably whenever you are trying to make one on anything.

My argument was that in Twelvers, occultation is already foretold in your imams' narrations. There are hundreds if not thousands of them in your books. Simply said, occultation would happened regardless. And for the re-appearance, according to Twelvers, there are signs and conditions and many of them are just beyond human control. Therefore, why does Allah put suffering to people by depriving them from the guidance of the imam whereas some of the conditions and signs are just beyond human control? It is as if God purposely wants to deprieve human being from His guidance and punish His creation anyway.


Are you in your right frame of mind when you typed those? The only same theme in both your and my statements is "foretold story". But that's not the argument at all. The argument is why Allah punished people for things that are beyond their control.

Can't you comprehend that simple premise? Please try again...

Brohter I had quoted that examples of doomsday & last era foretold narrations to make u understand clearer not for analogy. Ok now I answer u directly the same question -
u asked- occultaion would come regardless, as it is foretold.
I say- NO,occultation is b/c of situation & condition of that era and it has been foretold b/c it's was in knowledge of Prophet and Imams.
u asked -  And for the re-appearance, according to Twelvers, there are signs and conditions and many of them are just beyond human control.
I say - Signs & conditions (are effects of era) which r foretold ,as these signs & conditions will be there at time of re-appearence. More the community will fullfill the supportive  & Godliness nature increases more signs(few natural & few effects of era) & condition will get manifested.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 28, 2016, 03:49:39 PM
Brohter I had quoted that examples of doomsday & last era foretold narrations to make u understand clearer not for analogy. Ok now I answer u directly the same question -
u asked- occultaion would come regardless, as it is foretold.
I say- NO,occultation is b/c of situation & condition of that era and it has been foretold b/c it's was in knowledge of Prophet and Imams.
u asked -  And for the re-appearance, according to Twelvers, there are signs and conditions and many of them are just beyond human control.
I say - Signs & conditions (are effects of era) which r foretold ,as these signs & conditions will be there at time of re-appearence. More the community will fullfill the supportive  & Godliness nature increases more signs(few natural & few effects of era) & condition will get manifested.

Are you saying that when the people become more supportive of the imam and increase in their godliness, Allah will start manifest those signs?
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Solomon on December 29, 2016, 01:08:10 PM
^
God will manifest those few signs which r natural, as when time of re-appearance would be closer.
And as for sufiyani etc these are era based(effects) signs .
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 30, 2016, 03:49:59 AM
^
God will manifest those few signs which r natural, as when time of re-appearance would be closer.
And as for sufiyani etc these are era based(effects) signs .

Brother, you didn't answer the question. The question was:

"Are you saying that when the people become more supportive of the imam and increase in their godliness, Allah will start manifest those signs?"

You didn't answer the original questions of this thread too:

1. Can Twelver Shi'a DEMONSTRATE to us WHY all 12 Imams are NECCESSARY for us TO KNOW true Islam?

2. What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

3. If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Solomon on December 30, 2016, 08:27:59 AM


Brother, you didn't answer the question. The question was:

"Are you saying that when the people become more supportive of the imam and increase in their godliness, Allah will start manifest those signs?"

When ppl(that many which imam needs) become supportive & godly [then that will be the time closer to re-apearence] then God will manifest those [of natural]signs of time of re-appearence.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 30, 2016, 01:13:13 PM


Brother, you didn't answer the question. The question was:

"Are you saying that when the people become more supportive of the imam and increase in their godliness, Allah will start manifest those signs?"

When ppl(that many which imam needs) become supportive & godly [then that will be the time closer to re-apearence] then God will manifest those [of natural]signs of time of re-appearence.

Could you provide narrations of your imams to support that?


You didn't answer the original questions of this thread too:

1. Can Twelver Shi'a DEMONSTRATE to us WHY all 12 Imams are NECCESSARY for us TO KNOW true Islam?

2. What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

3. If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?

You seemed like evading answering these questions? May I know why?
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Solomon on December 30, 2016, 02:14:25 PM
Could you provide narrations of your imams to support that?
Honestly saying brother,I just remembered the concepts as ppl do, I don't remember exact narrations nor do I have time to go thru the books(as I read long ago)but there are various natural signs like -a call from sky etc etc(as I remembered) will occur just before time of re-appearence.
You seemed like evading answering these questions? May I know why?


1. Can Twelver Shi'a DEMONSTRATE to us WHY all 12 Imams are NECCESSARY for us TO KNOW true Islam?

2. What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

3. If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?
Nope,not evading, I wanted not to mix up our above discussion with other questions as there would have been multiple questions at a time
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 30, 2016, 02:51:12 PM
Could you provide narrations of your imams to support that?
Honestly saying brother,I just remembered the concepts as ppl do, I don't remember exact narrations nor do I have time to go thru the books(as I read long ago)but there are various natural signs like -a call from sky etc etc(as I remembered) will occur just before time of re-appearence.

I didn't mean narrations for each of those signs. What I meant was narrations that said Allah will manifest those signs when people become more supportive of the hidden imam and increase in their godliness. Are there any?


You seemed like evading answering these questions? May I know why?

1. Can Twelver Shi'a DEMONSTRATE to us WHY all 12 Imams are NECCESSARY for us TO KNOW true Islam?

2. What did al-Jawad ever say that we cannot be Muslims without?

3. If we remove al-Jawad from history, what goes missing from Islam?
Nope,not evading, I wanted not to mix up our above discussion with other questions as there would have been multiple questions at a time

If your reason was not to mix up, quote those questions and respond accordingly in a separate post then. It isn't that hard.  ;)

You can start right after reading this post.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Solomon on December 30, 2016, 07:49:00 PM
Quote
I didn't mean narrations for each of those signs. What I meant was narrations that said Allah will manifest those signs when people become more supportive of the hidden imam and increase in their godliness. Are there any?
As I said earlier I have to surf thru books to quote exact narrations, Anyways below narration
shows God appoints various [natural] signs for pious those who awaits for imam.

Narrated to us Abdullah bin Ja’far Himyari from Ahmad bin Hilal from Hasan bin Mahboob from Abi Ayyub Khazzaz and Alaa bin Razeen from Muhammad bin Muslim that he said: I heard Abi Abdullah (a.s.) say: “Before the rising of the Qaim, Allah will appoint signs for the believers. I asked: What are those, may I be sacrificed on you? He replied: They are mentioned in the saying of Allah, the Mighty and Sublime: That is before the advent of the Qaim the believers will be tested through fear and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits; and give good news to the patient means those who await for the reappearance." Shaykh Saduq, Kamaaluddin wa Tamaamun Ni’ma Vol. 1
Below one shows order of Imam to adopt godliness & piety ,and if one goes thru narrations regarding companion of Imam Mahdi(as) those deals strictly with god-wariness
Imam Sadiq told his companions:"Whoever wishes to be a companion and close associate of our Qa'im should await deliverance through him. Moreover, such a person should adopt piety and virtuous life and continue to anticipate our Qa'im in that state."Nu'mani, Kitab al-ghayba, p. 211

As I said for more accurate narrations i've to go thru books closely again. I got above narrations quickly so I mentioned.

Quote
If your reason was not to mix up, quote those questions and respond accordingly in a separate post then. It isn't that hard.  ;)
first end up above lengthy one brother ;)
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Hani on December 30, 2016, 09:52:11 PM
Quote
I heard Abi Abdullah (a.s.) say: “Before the rising of the Qaim, Allah will appoint signs for the believers. I asked: What are those, may I be sacrificed on you? He replied: They are mentioned in the saying of Allah, the Mighty and Sublime: That is before the advent of the Qaim the believers will be tested through fear and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits; and give good news to the patient means those who await for the reappearance."

Do you know why this doesn't make sense? Because believers were always tested with fear, hunger and loss of property in the time of `Ali and the other Imams. Also in the time of our prophet (saw), those other prophets before him and pretty much all throughout history.

As for the Shia, they lived in these miserable conditions and still do since Shiasm was created. In other words, the above narration serves no purpose and just stating the obvious. He might as well have said: "Before the Qaim, wars will happen." No Duh!

Many Shia left Tashayyu` due to the death of al-`Askari without children, those who later claimed he had a hidden son can only go too far, soon people started asking where is this son? He never appeared so in order to trick their followers to believing he exists, they made up narrations urging the faithful Shia to "await" this character, until now many still do but he is not in existence.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 30, 2016, 10:36:01 PM
Quote
I didn't mean narrations for each of those signs. What I meant was narrations that said Allah will manifest those signs when people become more supportive of the hidden imam and increase in their godliness. Are there any?
As I said earlier I have to surf thru books to quote exact narrations, Anyways below narration
shows God appoints various [natural] signs for pious those who awaits for imam.

Narrated to us Abdullah bin Ja’far Himyari from Ahmad bin Hilal from Hasan bin Mahboob from Abi Ayyub Khazzaz and Alaa bin Razeen from Muhammad bin Muslim that he said: I heard Abi Abdullah (a.s.) say: “Before the rising of the Qaim, Allah will appoint signs for the believers. I asked: What are those, may I be sacrificed on you? He replied: They are mentioned in the saying of Allah, the Mighty and Sublime: That is before the advent of the Qaim the believers will be tested through fear and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits; and give good news to the patient means those who await for the reappearance." Shaykh Saduq, Kamaaluddin wa Tamaamun Ni’ma Vol. 1

As I said for more accurate narrations i've to go thru books closely again. I got above narrations quickly so I mentioned.

Surf thru your books harder brother. Believers to be "tested through fear and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits" is not a natural sign. In fact, not really sure you can take it as a que for a sign as brother Hani said since it happens throughout your history.

These are samples of natural signs before re-appearance of your imam according to Twelvers:
- There will be an eclipse of the sun in the middle of the month of Ramadan;
- There will be an eclipse of the moon at the end of that month in contrast to ordinary happenings;
- The land will be swallowed up at al-Bayda'; it will be swallowed in the east-it will be swallowed up in the west;
- The sun will stay still from the time of its decline to the middle of the time for the afternoon prayer.
- The sun will rise from the west;
- The star will appear in the east giving light just like the moon gives light; then (the new moon) will bend until its two tips almost meet;
- A colour will appear in the sky and spread to its horizons;
- A black wind will raise it at the beginning of the day and then an earthquake will occur so that much of it will be swallowed up;
- A cry (will come) from the sky (in such a way) that all the people will hear it in their own languages;
- A face and a chest will appear in the sky before the people in the centre of the sun;
- The dead will arise from their graves so that they will return to the world and they will recognize one another and visit one another; that will come to an end with twenty-four continuous rainstorms and the land will be revived by them after being dead and it will recognize its blessings;

Try to find narrations that relate manifestation of the above signs by Allah when people become more supportive of the hidden imam and increase in their godliness.


Below one shows order of Imam to adopt godliness & piety ,and if one goes thru narrations regarding companion of Imam Mahdi(as) those deals strictly with god-wariness
Imam Sadiq told his companions:"Whoever wishes to be a companion and close associate of our Qa'im should await deliverance through him. Moreover, such a person should adopt piety and virtuous life and continue to anticipate our Qa'im in that state."Nu'mani, Kitab al-ghayba, p. 211

This narration does not answer the question that I asked.


Quote
If your reason was not to mix up, quote those questions and respond accordingly in a separate post then. It isn't that hard.  ;)
first end up above lengthy one brother ;)

Do we have a new rule in this forum that certain discussion needs to be concluded first before we move on to another discussion? Sounds more like evading to me.  ;)
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on December 31, 2016, 12:13:18 AM
The twelvers are in denial.
There is nothing historically or academically to place the '9th, 10th or 11th' Imams above any other sayid from the offspring of Ali during their times nor any proof that they were even scholars of a high repute.
Only twelver & some extremist sufi fairytales.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Solomon on December 31, 2016, 04:44:09 AM
Quote
I didn't mean narrations for each of those signs. What I meant was narrations that said Allah will manifest those signs when people become more supportive of the hidden imam and increase in their godliness. Are there any?
As I said earlier I have to surf thru books to quote exact narrations, Anyways below narration
shows God appoints various [natural] signs for pious those who awaits for imam.

Narrated to us Abdullah bin Ja’far Himyari from Ahmad bin Hilal from Hasan bin Mahboob from Abi Ayyub Khazzaz and Alaa bin Razeen from Muhammad bin Muslim that he said: I heard Abi Abdullah (a.s.) say: “Before the rising of the Qaim, Allah will appoint signs for the believers. I asked: What are those, may I be sacrificed on you? He replied: They are mentioned in the saying of Allah, the Mighty and Sublime: That is before the advent of the Qaim the believers will be tested through fear and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits; and give good news to the patient means those who await for the reappearance." Shaykh Saduq, Kamaaluddin wa Tamaamun Ni’ma Vol. 1

As I said for more accurate narrations i've to go thru books closely again. I got above narrations quickly so I mentioned.

Surf thru your books harder brother. Believers to be "tested through fear and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits" is not a natural sign. In fact, not really sure you can take it as a que for a sign as brother Hani said since it happens throughout your history.

These are samples of natural signs before re-appearance of your imam according to Twelvers:
- There will be an eclipse of the sun in the middle of the month of Ramadan;
- There will be an eclipse of the moon at the end of that month in contrast to ordinary happenings;
- The land will be swallowed up at al-Bayda'; it will be swallowed in the east-it will be swallowed up in the west;
- The sun will stay still from the time of its decline to the middle of the time for the afternoon prayer.
- The sun will rise from the west;
- The star will appear in the east giving light just like the moon gives light; then (the new moon) will bend until its two tips almost meet;
- A colour will appear in the sky and spread to its horizons;
- A black wind will raise it at the beginning of the day and then an earthquake will occur so that much of it will be swallowed up;
- A cry (will come) from the sky (in such a way) that all the people will hear it in their own languages;
- A face and a chest will appear in the sky before the people in the centre of the sun;
- The dead will arise from their graves so that they will return to the world and they will recognize one another and visit one another; that will come to an end with twenty-four continuous rainstorms and the land will be revived by them after being dead and it will recognize its blessings;

Try to find narrations that relate manifestation of the above signs by Allah when people become more supportive of the hidden imam and increase in their godliness.


Below one shows order of Imam to adopt godliness & piety ,and if one goes thru narrations regarding companion of Imam Mahdi(as) those deals strictly with god-wariness
Imam Sadiq told his companions:"Whoever wishes to be a companion and close associate of our Qa'im should await deliverance through him. Moreover, such a person should adopt piety and virtuous life and continue to anticipate our Qa'im in that state."Nu'mani, Kitab al-ghayba, p. 211

This narration does not answer the question that I asked.

The second narration which I quoted was just to show the order of Imam to increase godliness those who awaits . The first narration clearly shows "God will appoint the [natural]signs for those who awatits " As in same narration imam counted few natural signs like hunger,loss of property etc specific to most believers.[Any loss of property,lives etc ,if its from God, are natural signs]
But amazingly you quoted ten other signs and told to find narration which include those signs as well as reasons[of ppl being godly] and as well as including word god will manifest in a narration.
There r various narrations  but not all things of islamic eschatology in one narration
Let me remind u ur question
Quote
I didn't mean narrations for each of those signs. What I meant was narrations that said Allah will manifest those signs when people become more supportive of the hidden imam and increase in their godliness.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on December 31, 2016, 06:23:48 AM
LOL!

Let me remind you my exact question.

I didn't mean narrations for each of those signs. What I meant was narrations that said Allah will manifest those signs when people become more supportive of the hidden imam and increase in their godliness.

Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Ebn Hussein on January 02, 2017, 09:52:04 PM

Firstly,It's wrong he never guided. Infact Imam guided peoples ,even verbally, not only thru his 4 deputies during minor occultation but also during major occultation numerous incident of meeting of Imam with trustworthy grand scholars is in books.

Yes, the hidden Imams meets the great Iranian Ayatullats in secret, and many other Shias, telling them for example that smacking your head with knives and blade (is a form of hijamah lol) and Sunnah. Look, look, what a great guide:



How dare you disbelieving Sunnis doubt that he guides! HE DOES GUIDE! Our great scholars have written it down.

Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Ebn Hussein on January 02, 2017, 10:09:24 PM
I have given up discussing with Shiites about their non-sensical, non-Quranic blief of 12 divine guides. What strikes me to this very day is a sentence a Shia mater (from when I used to be a Shiite) throw at me, with no shame. He said (and it's a very typical Shia statement, I've met many who say things like that):

"I don't need the Qur'an, Sunnah or anything to prove Imamah (of 12 Imams), it's a logical necessity."

Them lot speaking of logic makes you wanna puke. They call the concept of 11 (alleged) infallible Imams living for around 250 years and the last one HIDDEN for over 1200 years as justice (Adl) and grace (Lutf) of Allah that was bestowed upon manking. Rafidism, a illogical religion full of contradictions.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: MuslimAnswers on January 03, 2017, 04:29:25 AM

Yes, the hidden Imams meets the great Iranian Ayatullats in secret, and many other Shias, telling them for example that smacking your head with knives and blade (is a form of hijamah lol) and Sunnah. Look, look, what a great guide:



How dare you disbelieving Sunnis doubt that he guides! HE DOES GUIDE! Our great scholars have written it down.


Is there any formal discussion in their works of how claims to having met their "Infallible Imams" in person are taken into account?

As an analogy, in traditional Sunnism we do accept that people may see the Prophet (SAW) in dreams, yet if there is something in that dream that contradicts the Shariah as we have it transmitted this is rejected, and the fault is cast back to the spiritual deficiencies of the person experiencing the dream. So I am curious to know what is the "formal" consideration of this in the Twelver religion as far as the "Infallibles" are concerned.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: MuslimAnswers on January 03, 2017, 04:39:36 AM
I have given up discussing with Shiites about their non-sensical, non-Quranic blief of 12 divine guides. What strikes me to this very day is a sentence a Shia mater (from when I used to be a Shiite) throw at me, with no shame. He said (and it's a very typical Shia statement, I've met many who say things like that):

"I don't need the Qur'an, Sunnah or anything to prove Imamah (of 12 Imams), it's a logical necessity."

Them lot speaking of logic makes you wanna puke. They call the concept of 11 (alleged) infallible Imams living for around 250 years and the last one HIDDEN for over 1200 years as justice (Adl) and grace (Lutf) of Allah that was bestowed upon manking. Rafidism, a illogical religion full of contradictions.

(I will talk of the traditional schools of Sunni theology and how they might look at this matter, I know some may disagree with the below but it is the traditional view of Sunnis in Sunni-majority and even in Shia-majority lands like Iraq, etc.)

The issue is quite obvious in fact: The Twelvers seem to be saying on the one hand that Allah is obliged to bring Takleef entwined together with absolute Hidaayah, thus reward and punishment are predicated in this way.

Yet this is not something we see throughout history, and even the Quran mentions that Allah does not punish a people until a Messenger is sent to them - it would seem trivial to mention this if Hidaayah was indeed present which obligated the Mukallaf to act in a certain way.

Also, if the Twelver says his final Imam is 'hidden', we would say that the Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) is alive in his grave and benefits the Muslims from beyond the veil of the unseen, it would be superfluous for Allah to place another Infallible who is not directly accessible while there is already one Infallible benefiting the Ummah in this manner.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Link on January 04, 2017, 12:15:32 AM
Also, if the Twelver says his final Imam is 'hidden', we would say that the Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) is alive in his grave and benefits the Muslims from beyond the veil of the unseen, it would be superfluous for Allah to place another Infallible who is not directly accessible while there is already one Infallible benefiting the Ummah in this manner.

Everyone can make this claim, but Quran shows after Abraham, Imammate was passed down his offspring and didn't stay with him.

Like wise this nation not only need this hidden guidance (Mohammad could of been the one to go ghayba and return) but they need a series of Guides and Successors who were among the people and who the people are tried with. This trial was a good trial on God and a grace just as it was always grace before.

God could of made Moses stay on earth and be the guide and go hidden, but it was not superfluous to appoint a series of leaders that guide by God's command, 12 Captains that ways to God and who people should not mix from drinking their place uncertain water and falsehood with their truth.

This has a wisdom, the number 12 has a wisdom, and Elijah going into hidding and then after Zakeriya and Yahya and Isa, being the one who takes this mantle of spiritual guidance also had a wisdom.

Jesus is to a play a role to come, but he being the spiritual guide on earth is not one of them, but as the hadiths show, he will return while the Imam is among us and pray behind Imam Mahdi.

There is a wisdom in all this, if I or a Shia cannot articulate, it doesn't make it go away.

Part of the wisdom is that first people are tried with real rope from God that is physically present, and see how they act towards God through them. Then when they are not present among us, see who mixes with their authority others and demolishes the whole foundation of God's door and submission with tainted leadership and unproven authority.

This is a trial that has been repeated. The boat in the waves when things get hard for some reason those on it become sincere and worship God sincerely. Then when they are brought to safety and reach the promise of God, they rebel like Bani-Israel began to rebel after Moses brought them to safety.

This cycle repeats itself but the Mahdi is a long trial, because the cycle this time must stop. This time people will come to the truth and the earth will be illuminated by God's light through Imam Mahdi.

This time we will have to wait to the extent that is a guarantee that when people are brought to safety they will not assoicate in the divine leadership which is linked to God's Kingship the likes of the Samiri etc, but rather submit to the clean pure stream and enter the door that God has opened for them.

There is wisdom in sealing revelations and in sealing the divinely appointed leaders, so, and keeping that guidance of Abraham on earth in a remanent of pure family from his offspring. It has wisdom.

The Quran elaborates on it, manifests it's beauty, and shows it.  People will have to awaken to the arguments of the need of  a chosen one from God and guidance that is tread by him, and the world will have to want justice and to be ruled by it.

The world will recognize the need of a ruler and authority from God. It's bound to happen, we pray to be of those who speed up the process that leads to that and not be of those who delay it.

Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: MuslimAnswers on January 04, 2017, 05:06:59 PM
^

There is a lot unnecesarry prose above, yet the important points are as follows:

1. Concerning the "necessity" of Infallibles to be among people and to suffer with them, this is definitely not established as a need, and the sound mind does not see it at all as such. Besides, if one were to say that the "Imam in Occultation" is indeed suffering right now among people, this would have to be known in terms of exact time and location, which it is not, so again it is an irrelevant "Imam" for all intents and purposes.

2. If the Shia cannot articulate the matter properly as it seems to be the case, and since we know that the Quran is not articulating it perspicuously either, then it is obviously not clear enough to indicate obligatoriness [at the very minimum].

3. The matter of Elijah being a 'guide' after 'Isa (AS) is not proven; if anything it would go against the very principles of Twelver ideology, and prevent need for any further argumentation.

4. I see that the argument being used about Ibrahim (AS) is the same weak one employed by Tabatabai in his Tafsir; the reality being, among other things, that:

a) 'ظالم' is given a meaning of 'Fallible' while this is not borne out by this Verse nor by other Verses relating this same issue of the progeny after Ibrahim (AS).

b) The righteous descendants of Ibrahim (AS) on multiple occasions interact in ways that totally contradict "Infallible Imamah", so that seals the case right there, and really puts aside the need for further discussion.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Link on January 04, 2017, 05:45:12 PM
1. Concerning the "necessity" of Infallibles to be among people and to suffer with them, this is definitely not established as a need, and the sound mind does not see it at all as such. Besides, if one were to say that the "Imam in Occultation" is indeed suffering right now among people, this would have to be known in terms of exact time and location, which it is not, so again it is an irrelevant "Imam" for all intents and purposes.


I don't see any refutation to my points aside from just denying and stating the Imam would not be in occultation.

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2. If the Shia cannot articulate the matter properly as it seems to be the case, and since we know that the Quran is not articulating it perspicuously either, then it is obviously not clear enough to indicate obligatoriness [at the very minimum].

The Quran does articulate better and it has it's wisdom there for all humanity.  It has designation of guidance through a guide in each age and era.

Quote
3. The matter of Elijah being a 'guide' after 'Isa (AS) is not proven; if anything it would go against the very principles of Twelver ideology, and prevent need for any further argumentation.

It's proven in a subtle way to me.

Quote

4. I see that the argument being used about Ibrahim (AS) is the same weak one employed by Tabatabai in his Tafsir; the reality being, among other things, that:

a) 'ظالم' is given a meaning of 'Fallible' while this is not borne out by this Verse nor by other Verses relating this same issue of the progeny after Ibrahim (AS).

b) The righteous descendants of Ibrahim (AS) on multiple occasions interact in ways that totally contradict "Infallible Imamah", so that seals the case right there, and really puts aside the need for further discussion.

The Quran doesn't state all righteous people will be Imams, is states his covenant of leadership will not include those who are unjust or did injustice....

Also this is not the only verse that proves Imammate perpetually and it being a different station.  But it's the core of Sunnism to belittle every verse relating to guidance and dismiss as irrelevant.

Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: muslim720 on January 04, 2017, 06:51:33 PM
The Quran doesn't state all righteous people will be Imams, is states his covenant of leadership will not include those who are unjust or did injustice....

Very well, then, I will pose the same question Syed Zafarullah Shah (from Takbeer TV) posed to Hassan Allahyari which caused the latter to run in all directions and mumble something incoherent from a text (Al-Kafi) which is not hujjah upon us.

You said that the Qur'an "doesn't state all righteous people will be Imams" and you also believe that only Allah (swt) appoints Imams.  Then why the following supplication in Surah Al-Furqan verse 74:
"And those who pray, 'Our Lord! Grant unto us wives and offspring who will be the comfort of our eyes, and give us (the grace) to lead the righteous (Imama).'"

If Allah (swt) appoints Imams, then why are we making this supplication almost on a weekly (if not daily) basis?

The very next verse says, "Those are the ones who will be rewarded with the highest place in heaven, because of their patient constancy: therein shall they be met with salutations and peace".  Here Allah (swt) is saying that the righteous will be rewarded whereas you are saying that not every righteous person will be Imam when the Qur'an teaches us to supplicate for our children to be Imams (and guarantees reward for the righteous).

Quote
But it's the core of Sunnism to belittle every verse relating to guidance and dismiss as irrelevant.

It is the core of Sunni Islam to understand everything holistically just like your own established beliefs (regarding Imama) fail in the light of the Qur'an.
Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Link on January 04, 2017, 09:40:27 PM
Very well, then, I will pose the same question Syed Zafarullah Shah (from Takbeer TV) posed to Hassan Allahyari which caused the latter to run in all directions and mumble something incoherent from a text (Al-Kafi) which is not hujjah upon us.

You said that the Qur'an "doesn't state all righteous people will be Imams" and you also believe that only Allah (swt) appoints Imams.  Then why the following supplication in Surah Al-Furqan verse 74:
"And those who pray, 'Our Lord! Grant unto us wives and offspring who will be the comfort of our eyes, and give us (the grace) to lead the righteous (Imama).'"

If Allah (swt) appoints Imams, then why are we making this supplication almost on a weekly (if not daily) basis?

If we look at the context, it's referring to people's ignorance of Mohammad's station, and their over all blindness to the station of God's chosen ones. So when it says "And the servants of the Rahman....", it's not refering to all servants of the Rahman.

We can prove that three ways:

1. Context it was related to specifically the servants of the Rahman they were saying would be given mansions, etc, if they were actually chosen to guide humanity.

2. Mutaqeen are good servants of God, but not all of them would be included, because the prayer is to be an "Imam" of Mutaqeen (so if all mutaqeen were Imams who is left to be lead?)


3. Other verses showing that it's not for us to say who is to lead us and guide us and who is the path way to God, for example, Abraham was a way/course (ummatan) to God, because he has clear proofs and evidence. If we can decide who is our guides and leaders and examples to follow and imitate and be lead by, then there would be no need of Prophets and revelations from God. 

If you are Shia, there are hadiths that verify it refers to God's chosen ones.
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The very next verse says, "Those are the ones who will be rewarded with the highest place in heaven, because of their patient constancy: therein shall they be met with salutations and peace".  Here Allah (swt) is saying that the righteous will be rewarded whereas you are saying that not every righteous person will be Imam when the Qur'an teaches us to supplicate for our children to be Imams (and guarantees reward for the righteous).

If all Mutaqeen/righteous are leaders, who is left to lead the righteous/mutaqeen?



Quote
It is the core of Sunni Islam to understand everything holistically just like your own established beliefs (regarding Imama) fail in the light of the Qur'an.

The core of Sunnism is to disconnect Quran verses from one another, and disconnect hadiths of the Prophet from the Quran.

Isolate and interpret by desires. That is all there is to it.  It's nothing but huffing and puffing and making blindness as if it's a virtue.


Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: muslim720 on January 05, 2017, 01:45:41 PM
2. Mutaqeen are good servants of God, but not all of them would be included, because the prayer is to be an "Imam" of Mutaqeen (so if all mutaqeen were Imams who is left to be lead?)

The prayer does not necessitate that everyone is appointed Imam; in fact, that is not even my argument.  My argument, which you have overlooked for convenience or out of helplessness, is the following: if Imams are appointed by Allah (swt), why are we encouraged to supplicate for our children to be chosen Imams, to lead the righteous?

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If all Mutaqeen/righteous are leaders, who is left to lead the righteous/mutaqeen?

The verse, or the next one for that matter, does not guarantee that everyone making this supplication will necessarily be appointed as a leader to the righteous.  However, the verse leaves the appointment open to supplication and the next verse give glad tidings (to those who make this supplication), therefore, encouraging it.  Why would Allah (swt) encourage us to supplicate for something which has already been Divinely Ordained?  Can you supplicate for your children to be made prophets?  No!  Such a thing will make you oppose the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad (saw).  Then why are we commanded to make this supplication when (allegedly) Imamah has been already settled?



Quote
The core of Sunnism is to disconnect Quran verses from one another, and disconnect hadiths of the Prophet from the Quran.

Coming from the genius who wrote a painful-to-read, incoherent essay replete with punchlines like, "take away the story of fulan and you have done blah blah blah", this is almost criminal.

Speaking of disconnected hadiths, how many of your hadiths go back to the Prophet (saw)?

PS: I'm waiting for you to reconcile the two dichotomies I've pointed out here: http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/proving-there-is-exactly-'twelve'-successors/msg14366/#new


Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: Link on January 05, 2017, 08:57:17 PM
Prove your interpretation from Quran.  Show the context is about what you said.

Also, God never praises a prayer of a people and emphasizes on it, that he won't answer. Not once in Quran.

More interpretation of desires, while the whole context was about chosen type servants of God, the type they were objecting to and hence the reply is about that.

It shows God gave his chosen ones something beyond what they can appreciate and hence their objection of why isn't he blessed with treasures of gold etc, is all meaningless.

Title: Re: Do we need the 12 Imams?
Post by: muslim720 on January 08, 2017, 08:36:36 PM
Prove your interpretation from Quran.  Show the context is about what you said.

Exactly what have you - for all that you have typed in the last God knows how many days - provided the Qur'anic proof and context for?