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Imamah: Even the reasoning of their Imams is flawed and shallow!

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Link

Re: Imamah: Even the reasoning of their Imams is flawed and shallow!
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2016, 03:37:55 AM »
You questions are suggesting answers. Print two or three verses (with context) that include the number twelve, then just hand it out to some random non-Muslim. Ask them what they make of these verses. If they don't even notice the number twelve is being repeated then you bringing it up would defeat the very purpose of the test.

Can I say what do each of these verses have to would have to do with the submitting to God for humans today if it was from God?

Or is that too suggestive for you as well?

Or can I post verses warning against following religious leaders in general, and in contrast, talks about his chosen ones and the need to follow and obey them....

Because if you can't spot the pattern by now....negation of false authority with affirmation of God's authority vested in his chosen ones....you truly can't understand a word of Quran.

You haven't understood anything of it's warnings, of it's admonishment, of the way of submitting to God.

Try swapping the verse of twelve months with verse 5:55 or verse 4:59.  If you cannot see the same contrast, the same contrast in these places, and the similar emphasis....let me know. Or try putting verse 42:23 in where the 12 months verse is, or where 4:59 is or 5:55 is, of course it won't rhyme or anything, but you will see that all these Surahs are emphasizing on the same thing.

And other Surahs trying swapping "Imams who guide by our command", with "people who guide by the truth".

Or Imam for "way/course" (ummatan) or "umatan" for Imam in other places.

Try it, maybe you will see something, who knows?







« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 03:43:23 AM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Farid

Re: Imamah: Even the reasoning of their Imams is flawed and shallow!
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2016, 08:52:45 AM »
You questions are suggesting answers. Print two or three verses (with context) that include the number twelve, then just hand it out to some random non-Muslim. Ask them what they make of these verses. If they don't even notice the number twelve is being repeated then you bringing it up would defeat the very purpose of the test.

Can I say what do each of these verses have to would have to do with the submitting to God for humans today if it was from God?

Or is that too suggestive for you as well?

Or can I post verses warning against following religious leaders in general, and in contrast, talks about his chosen ones and the need to follow and obey them....

If you want this to sincerely be a test, you need to make it as fair as possible. You made the claim that anyone should be able to come to this conclusion.

With that said, even claiming that the verses are linked with one another provides a suggestion, since the average Muslim reading the Qur'an does not make this assumption.

Try quoting the verses with a context and presenting it to them, without suggesting that they are linked. Simply ask: What are the lessons learned from these verses?

Link

Re: Imamah: Even the reasoning of their Imams is flawed and shallow!
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2016, 11:04:54 AM »
lol don't show too much of Quran lest people connect the dots is what you are saying!
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Imamah: Even the reasoning of their Imams is flawed and shallow!
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2016, 12:24:23 PM »
lol don't show too much of Quran lest people connect the dots is what you are saying!

Dots? In your case I think you mean 50 odd boards of complex formulas.

Btw: You still haven't answered my question in the other thread.
I think we all know why you are avoiding it:)

Farid

Re: Imamah: Even the reasoning of their Imams is flawed and shallow!
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2016, 01:04:49 PM »
lol don't show too much of Quran lest people connect the dots is what you are saying!

Let's just end this, since it is obvious that you will not take part in the test.

Do you want me to bring Shias that will clearly tell you that your interpretations are false?

Link

Re: Imamah: Even the reasoning of their Imams is flawed and shallow!
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2016, 02:51:47 PM »

Let's just end this, since it is obvious that you will not take part in the test.

Do you want me to bring Shias that will clearly tell you that your interpretations are false?

Ok you can bring Shias that will say so, and I will try to reason with them.

Two questions:

The number 12 is significant or insignificant in your view?
What purpose does it serve with respect to the Surah and Quran to mention the number?


Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hani

Re: Imamah: Even the reasoning of their Imams is flawed and shallow!
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2016, 06:50:02 PM »
Link, you'd do much better as an Isma`ili than an Ithna `Ashari, they're experts when it comes to odd numbers and connecting vague verses together. Their books are filled with this.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Imamah: Even the reasoning of their Imams is flawed and shallow!
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2016, 06:53:57 PM »
Link, you'd do much better as an Isma`ili than an Ithna `Ashari, they're experts when it comes to odd numbers and connecting vague verses together. Their books are filled with this.

Yes his posts to resemble a very 'esoteric Ismaili' kind of interpretation.

GreatChineseFall

Re: Imamah: Even the reasoning of their Imams is flawed and shallow!
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2016, 09:30:26 PM »
Two questions:

The number 12 is significant or insignificant in your view?
What purpose does it serve with respect to the Surah and Quran to mention the number?

This is not meant as a mockery, I just want to see what your modus operandi is. Is the number three of any significance to you? Why is the number three explicitly mentioned in the following verses?

Quote
هنالك دعا زكريا ربه قال رب هب لي من لدنك ذرية طيبة إنك سميع الدعاء
Sahih International
At that, Zechariah called upon his Lord, saying, "My Lord, grant me from Yourself a good offspring. Indeed, You are the Hearer of supplication."

فنادته الملائكة وهو قائم يصلي في المحراب أن الله يبشرك بيحيى مصدقا بكلمة من الله وسيدا وحصورا ونبيّا من الصالحين
Sahih International
So the angels called him while he was standing in prayer in the chamber, "Indeed, Allah gives you good tidings of John, confirming a word from Allah and [who will be] honorable, abstaining [from women], and a prophet from among the righteous."

قال رب أنى يكون لي غلام وقد بلغني الكبر وامرأتي عاقر قال كذلك الله يفعل ما يشاء
Sahih International
He said, "My Lord, how will I have a boy when I have reached old age and my wife is barren?" The angel said, "Such is Allah ; He does what He wills."

قال رب اجعل لي آية قال آيتك ألا تكلم الناس ثلاثة أيام إلا رمزا واذكر ربك كثيرا وسبح بالعشي والإبكار
Sahih International
He said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He Said, "Your sign is that you will not [be able to] speak to the people for three days except by gesture. And remember your Lord much and exalt [Him with praise] in the evening and the morning."

Quote
ويا قوم هذه ناقة الله لكم آية فذروها تأكل في أرض الله ولا تمسوها بسوء فيأخذكم عذاب قريب
Sahih International
And O my people, this is the she-camel of Allah - [she is] to you a sign. So let her feed upon Allah 's earth and do not touch her with harm, or you will be taken by an impending punishment."

فعقروها فقال تمتعوا في داركم ثلاثة أيام ذلك وعد غير مكذوب
Sahih International
But they hamstrung her, so he said, "Enjoy yourselves in your homes for three days. That is a promise not to be denied."

Quote
خلقكم من نفس واحدة ثم جعل منها زوجها وأنزل لكم من الأنعام ثمانية أزواج يخلقكم في بطون أمهاتكم خلقا من بعد خلق في ظلمات ثلاث ذلكم الله ربكم له الملك لا إله إلا هو فأنى تصرفون
Sahih International
He created you from one soul. Then He made from it its mate, and He produced for you from the grazing livestock eight mates. He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation, within three darknesses. That is Allah , your Lord; to Him belongs dominion. There is no deity except Him, so how are you averted?

Quote
وكنتم أزواجا ثلاثة
Sahih International
And you become [of] three kinds:

فأصحاب الميمنة ما أصحاب الميمنة
Sahih International
Then the companions of the right - what are the companions of the right?

وأصحاب المشأمة ما أصحاب المشأمة
Sahih International
And the companions of the left - what are the companions of the left?

والسابقون السابقون
Sahih International
And the forerunners, the forerunners -

Quote
ويل يومئذ للمكذبين
Sahih International
Woe, that Day, to the deniers.

انطلقوا إلى ما كنتم به تكذبون
Sahih International
[They will be told], "Proceed to that which you used to deny.

انطلقوا إلى ظلّ ذي ثلاث شعب
Sahih International
Proceed to a shadow [of smoke] having three columns

Perhaps even these verses have something to do with it:
Quote
والمطلقات يتربصن بأنفسهن ثلاثة قروء ولا يحل لهن أن يكتمن ما خلق الله في أرحامهن إن كن يؤمن بالله واليوم الآخر وبعولتهن أحق بردهن في ذلك إن أرادوا إصلاحا ولهن مثل الذي عليهن بالمعروف وللرجال عليهن درجة والله عزيز حكيم
Sahih International
Divorced women remain in waiting for three periods, and it is not lawful for them to conceal what Allah has created in their wombs if they believe in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have more right to take them back in this [period] if they want reconciliation. And due to the wives is similar to what is expected of them, according to what is reasonable. But the men have a degree over them [in responsibility and authority]. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.

Quote
يا أهل الكتاب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله وكلمته ألقاها إلى مريم وروح منه فآمنوا بالله ورسله ولا تقولوا ثلاثة انتهوا خيرا لكم إنما الله إله واحد سبحانه أن يكون له ولد له ما في السماوات وما في الأرض وكفى بالله وكيلا
Sahih International
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

Quote
لقد كفر الذين قالوا إن الله ثالث ثلاثة وما من إله إلا إله واحد وإن لم ينتهوا عما يقولون ليمسن الذين كفروا منهم عذاب أليم
Sahih International
They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

Quote
لا يؤاخذكم الله باللغو في أيمانكم ولكن يؤاخذكم بما عقدتم الأيمان فكفارته إطعام عشرة مساكين من أوسط ما تطعمون أهليكم أو كسوتهم أو تحرير رقبة فمن لم يجد فصيام ثلاثة أيام ذلك كفارة أيمانكم إذا حلفتم واحفظوا أيمانكم كذلك يبين الله لكم آياته لعلكم تشكرون
Sahih International
Allah will not impose blame upon you for what is meaningless in your oaths, but He will impose blame upon you for [breaking] what you intended of oaths. So its expiation is the feeding of ten needy people from the average of that which you feed your [own] families or clothing them or the freeing of a slave. But whoever cannot find [or afford it] - then a fast of three days [is required]. That is the expiation for oaths when you have sworn. But guard your oaths. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be grateful.

Quote
لقد تاب الله على النبي والمهاجرين والأنصار الذين اتبعوه في ساعة العسرة من بعد ما كاد يزيغ قلوب فريق منهم ثم تاب عليهم إنه بهم رءوف رحيم
Sahih International
Allah has already forgiven the Prophet and the Muhajireen and the Ansar who followed him in the hour of difficulty after the hearts of a party of them had almost inclined [to doubt], and then He forgave them. Indeed, He was to them Kind and Merciful.

وعلى الثلاثة الذين خلفوا حتى إذا ضاقت عليهم الأرض بما رحبت وضاقت عليهم أنفسهم وظنوا أن لا ملجأ من الله إلا إليه ثم تاب عليهم ليتوبوا إن الله هو التواب الرحيم
Sahih International
And [He also forgave] the three who were left behind [and regretted their error] to the point that the earth closed in on them in spite of its vastness and their souls confined them and they were certain that there is no refuge from Allah except in Him. Then He turned to them so they could repent. Indeed, Allah is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.

Quote
يا أيها الذين آمنوا ليستأذنكم الذين ملكت أيمانكم والذين لم يبلغوا الحلم منكم ثلاث مرات من قبل صلاة الفجر وحين تضعون ثيابكم من الظهيرة ومن بعد صلاة العشاء ثلاث عورات لكم ليس عليكم ولا عليهم جناح بعدهن طوافون عليكم بعضكم على بعض كذلك يبين الله لكم الآيات والله عليم حكيم
Sahih International
O you who have believed, let those whom your right hands possess and those who have not [yet] reached puberty among you ask permission of you [before entering] at three times: before the dawn prayer and when you put aside your clothing [for rest] at noon and after the night prayer. [These are] three times of privacy for you. There is no blame upon you nor upon them beyond these [periods], for they continually circulate among you - some of you, among others. Thus does Allah make clear to you the verses; and Allah is Knowing and Wise.

Link

Re: Imamah: Even the reasoning of their Imams is flawed and shallow!
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2016, 03:49:14 AM »
Some of those verses obviously don't have symbolic meaning, but some of them do.

The number 3 and 7 are both important in Shariah and Quran.

The journey with God and to God can be simplified in three stages:

1. Recognizing light/God's Name with some scent, some sight, some hearing. This is symbolized by "star" in the darkness/night.

2. It growing in light to a significant illumination (moon stage)

3. The night is over, and the Sun is apparent.


The number 40 also has a sacred meaning, in that, 40 lights were shown to the Nabi in Miraaj at a certain stage, from whence the outward colours come from.

The 7 also has a meaning in that there is 7 veils, and descent of blessings and ascent of actions correspond to one of these heavens.

However all these verses have their places.

For example before Salah, it's mustahab to do 7 takbeer. And at the end it's mustahab to do 3 takbeer after Salah is over.

We can say numbers are sacred but we have to put them in their place.

The number 10 has to do with spiritual wealth and our actions, we count money with that, and God also made it the minimum multiplication of good deeds, good deeds always get rewards 10 times the like.

So this is significant with the 10 nights in Ramadan, and we remember what truly has value/worth (the night of Qadr).

2 is also important, in that it signifies opposite, light and darkness, but aside from good and evil, beauty and ugliness, and positive and negative, is that positives/praises are also created in pairs with polar opposites and lantents.

Four is also important for other reasons but it signifies essential aspects of humanity being shifted towards God.

But all these have their place.

The place of twelve and the covenant of Bani-Israel, is important, and it is important as well in that although God talked about past nations, he put magnifying glass on bani-Israel to show his way with the past and present.

And knowing the number that God picked for the chosen families and successors of founding Prophets is of vital importance for this nation as it was vital for each nation.

And it's emphasized in the right place with the subject of divine leadership and guidance.

By the name of God is it's sailing and achoring....and we raised from them twelve Captains.

And when it comes to the Taghut, then the number 9 is important, because it is in reality a 9 headed dragon.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 03:57:03 AM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hani

Re: Imamah: Even the reasoning of their Imams is flawed and shallow!
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2016, 07:30:41 AM »
7 Is my lucky number. It's also the lucky number of Isma`ili Shia who believe in seven imams and seven cycles.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

GreatChineseFall

Re: Imamah: Even the reasoning of their Imams is flawed and shallow!
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2017, 05:30:56 PM »
Some of those verses obviously don't have symbolic meaning, but some of them do.

The number 3 and 7 are both important in Shariah and Quran.

The journey with God and to God can be simplified in three stages:

1. Recognizing light/God's Name with some scent, some sight, some hearing. This is symbolized by "star" in the darkness/night.

2. It growing in light to a significant illumination (moon stage)

3. The night is over, and the Sun is apparent.


I understand, but how do you derive that from the quoted verses? Show your argumentation as you showed for the twelve leaders.

Also, do you think someone who doesn't believe in those three stages and doesn't see this truth would his entire faith and actions be in vain?

Link

Re: Imamah: Even the reasoning of their Imams is flawed and shallow!
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2017, 12:55:30 AM »
Also, do you think someone who doesn't believe in those three stages and doesn't see this truth would his entire faith and actions be in vain?

It depends if he is aware or not. People who reject the journey to God for example, and many people do, are people deceiving themselves about their belief in God.

People who approach the Quran with no want to understand the inner meanings of the Shariah will probably go to the Quran to confirm their desires and not seek the truth.

The book of God is primarily a book dealing with traveling to God. God has given all sorts of parables in there, and has made parallels to them in the Shariah for a purpose.

If a person becomes aware of the emphasis of 7 with the 7 veils or 7 heavens or 6 days and 7th being that of God's establishment on the throne, and yet doesn't put significance to 7 takbeers before Salah with any of that after hearing Imams emphasize on that,  they are not allowed to out of desires.

Like wise if a person wishes to dissociate water in wudoo with light of God and any symbolic meaning with respect to the nature of God's Names and humanity, even after becoming aware of the inward dimension, it can be said he hates the mystic link with God that humanity has.

All this cannot be explained except with love of Dunya. Love of Dunya is what causes people to reject knowledge of a higher type.

Also to downplay anything of the Quran, any verse, anything it says, is unacceptable.   This is not only out of love of Dunya, but is sheer disbelief, even if a person is unaware of it.

This is because God chose out of infinite words these words. These words are all careful part of a design of a book where each Surah plays a vital role, and where every verse is significant beyond our appreciation.

It's upon us to look into a verse as a treasure box and try to find what we can open up with it.

Not down grade it. Often a person down grades a hadith or a verse, and he becomes far away from the door of light and path to God though he doesn't perceive. He thinks he has faith in God and the last day, but deceives himself.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

 

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