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The Imamah Paradox

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Husayn

The Imamah Paradox
« on: January 21, 2015, 10:28:16 AM »
Imamah is the divinely ordained perfect system of leadership, according to them. Allah (swt) selects a leader, and the people follow.

The 12ers reject Shura as a method of electing a leader - because it is reliant on the opinions and actions of fallibles. (Ofcourse, Khomeini and his followers would disagree with this point, seeing as how the Supreme Leader is elected via Shura)

Now, why didn't Imamah succeed? We know, ofcourse that 'Ali (ra) was never accepted as the successor. It is because the people didn't accept it and they rebelled (according to 12ers).

So, in other words, Imamah, just like Shura, is limited by the actions and opinions of fallibles.

So if Imamah suffers the same limitations as Shura, how is it then a superior system?
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Hani

Re: The Imamah Paradox
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2015, 02:32:51 PM »
I was reading a book by al-Shareef al-Radi, I don't think it's his book but it's a fabrication attributed to him, and in this sad excuse of a book he's trying to answer the question of "Why did `Ali drop his right and not ask for it?" His excuse was the following:


He said that Imamah just like any other obligatory duty must be sought by the people, just like you go to Salat or go to pay Zakat, you must also go to the Imam and obey him, you cannot expect him to follow you and ask for his Imamah rather you must follow him and give him Imamah.


This is nonsense for the following reasons:


A- If Allah made Salat obligatory for every believer including the Prophet (saw), then we must all go to make Salat. Similarly Imamah was made obligatory for all believers as they claim so `Ali must also go to it and strive for it as it is an obligatory duty upon him to assume position of Imamah.


B- This makes no sense because it states that if Allah appoints someone then he must sit at home and do nothing and wait for the people to come to him. We all know that this isn't the path of every person whom Allah appointed as all Messengers and Prophets sacrificed everything for Allah and they followed the people to help them and guide them and call to their own prophet-hood.


All in all, Tashayyu` is a religion of sad excuses.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Furkan

Re: The Imamah Paradox
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2015, 09:03:15 PM »
You might add that excuse to the excuses thread, brother
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Ameen

Re: The Imamah Paradox
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2015, 02:34:24 AM »
Imamah is the divinely ordained perfect system of leadership, according to them. Allah (swt) selects a leader, and the people follow.

The 12ers reject Shura as a method of electing a leader - because it is reliant on the opinions and actions of fallibles. (Ofcourse, Khomeini and his followers would disagree with this point, seeing as how the Supreme Leader is elected via Shura)

Now, why didn't Imamah succeed? We know, ofcourse that 'Ali (ra) was never accepted as the successor. It is because the people didn't accept it and they rebelled (according to 12ers).

So, in other words, Imamah, just like Shura, is limited by the actions and opinions of fallibles.

So if Imamah suffers the same limitations as Shura, how is it then a superior system?

So Shias believe in Imamah after the Prophet (pbuh) and what do you believe in??? Shura??? Where was this Shura when the first Khalif named and appointed his successor???




Hani

Re: The Imamah Paradox
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2015, 02:36:10 AM »

So Shias believe in Imamah after the Prophet (pbuh) and what do you believe in??? Shura??? Where was this Shura when the first Khalif named and appointed his successor???

We also believe in Imamah, this is why the Muslims appointed an Imam after Rasul-Allah (saw) passed away. Or didn't you know this?
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: The Imamah Paradox
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2015, 04:19:58 AM »

So Shias believe in Imamah after the Prophet (pbuh) and what do you believe in??? Shura??? Where was this Shura when the first Khalif named and appointed his successor???

We also believe in Imamah, this is why the Muslims appointed an Imam after Rasul-Allah (saw) passed away. Or didn't you know this?

So what seems to be the problem then??? Shias believe in Imamah and you have just claimed that you also believe in Imamah, so what is the fuss all about??!

Furkan

Re: The Imamah Paradox
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2015, 04:28:52 AM »
Facepalm
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Taha

Re: The Imamah Paradox
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2015, 04:37:21 AM »
So what seems to be the problem then??? Shias believe in Imamah and you have just claimed that you also believe in Imamah, so what is the fuss all about??!
Sunni Imamate is different from Shia imamate.


Sunni Imamate is also called Caliphate.  ISIL is trying to reestablish the Imamate/Caliphate in Sham right now ...

Ameen

Re: The Imamah Paradox
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2015, 04:44:21 AM »
So what seems to be the problem then??? Shias believe in Imamah and you have just claimed that you also believe in Imamah, so what is the fuss all about??!
Sunni Imamate is different from Shia imamate.


Sunni Imamate is also called Caliphate.  ISIL is trying to reestablish the Imamate/Caliphate in Sham right now ...

There are some serious problems going on in the world right now. The Prophet (pbuh) being cartooned, Isis causing havoc but not a single word in defence of the Prophet (pbuh) or any condemnation about Isis from this lot or their Arab leaders. They're just too stuck up with their propaganda.

Furkan

Re: The Imamah Paradox
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2015, 04:47:45 AM »
And now we are dragged into middle east -_-
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Taha

Re: The Imamah Paradox
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2015, 04:51:30 AM »
There are some serious problems going on in the world right now. The Prophet (pbuh) being cartooned, Isis causing havoc but not a single word in defence of the Prophet (pbuh) or any condemnation about Isis from this lot or their Arab leaders. They're just too stuck up with their propaganda.
What does that have to do with anything?  I never supported ISIS (may Allah ruin them) and I don't think anyone on this forum supports them.  I was just using them as an example.  The Sunni Imamate is the Caliphate.  That is all I was trying to say.  Nothing political.

Furkan

Re: The Imamah Paradox
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2015, 04:52:12 AM »
lanat bar isis :D
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Ameen

Re: The Imamah Paradox
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2015, 05:13:54 AM »
There are some serious problems going on in the world right now. The Prophet (pbuh) being cartooned, Isis causing havoc but not a single word in defence of the Prophet (pbuh) or any condemnation about Isis from this lot or their Arab leaders. They're just too stuck up with their propaganda.
What does that have to do with anything?  I never supported ISIS (may Allah ruin them) and I don't think anyone on this forum supports them.  I was just using them as an example.  The Sunni Imamate is the Caliphate.  That is all I was trying to say.  Nothing political.

Let me tell you what it has to do with, we can start posting videos of these terror organisations and groups, since they are Ahle Sunnah and start a propagandist campaign that, this is what the Ahle Sunnah Aqeedah is all about and this is how things were done after the death of the Prophet (pbuh). This is exactly how the companions took charge of affairs. You don't see us doing that, do you??? Since when did I say you or anyone supported Isis??? But no one as commented on the serious problem and condemned them either. What about the constant humiliation of the Prophet (pbuh)??? Or isn't this an important subject for my dear brothers??? I don't see any thread for such important issues and matters. Why???

Taha

Re: The Imamah Paradox
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2015, 05:19:22 AM »
Let me tell you what it has to do with, we can start posting videos of these terror organisations and groups, since they are Ahle Sunnah and start a propagandist campaign that, this is what the Ahle Sunnah Aqeedah is all about

There are Sunni scholars the world over the condemn ISIL.  I don't know of any Shia scholars that condemn Tawassul, Imamate, etc.  They wouldn't be Shia anymore ......




and this is how things were done after the death of the Prophet (pbuh). This is exactly how the companions took charge of affairs.

It is?



You don't see us doing that, do you??? Since when did I say you or anyone supported Isis??? But no one as commented on the serious problem and condemned them either.

You haven't really been looking then.  I deal with Islamophobes on Facebook and in real life that say ignorant things such as "why aren't Muslims condemning ISIL?  Cuz they're all terrorists!!!!" which is utter nonsense.  Muslims from all schools of thought have condemned ISIL.  Majority of them, understandably, are Sunni.

What about the constant humiliation of the Prophet (pbuh) ??? Or isn't this an important subject for my dear brothers??? I don't see any thread for such important issues and matters. Why???

As I recall, a couple of Sunnis actually implemented the hadd on a particular magazine that humiliated the Prophet (s.a.w.a) recently .....

Hani

Re: The Imamah Paradox
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2015, 05:32:16 AM »
Ameen just discovered that both Sunnies and Shia believe in "leadership."


Great let's unite now.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Furkan

Re: The Imamah Paradox
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2015, 06:08:17 AM »
LOOOOOOOOOL
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

 

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