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Hundred Questions for Shias

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iceman

Re: Hundred Questions for Shias
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2019, 09:38:43 AM »
Here is a list of 100 questions I prepared for Shias to answer.

https://shiacult.webnode.com/challenges/a100-questions/

Question 4, Can a Prophet, who is divinely appointed, render allegiance to a false prophet? If yes, then give any example from the seerah of the Prophets. If no, then how can an Imam, who is divinely appointed according to you, render allegiance to a false Imam?

Answer 4,
a, (Can a Prophet, who is divinely appointed, render allegiance to a false prophet?) NO.

b, (If no, then how can an Imam, who is divinely appointed according to you, render allegiance to a false Imam?)

No they can't. Who said anyone did? Don't go by false reports created by those who got into authority and used their influence, connections and power to suit their needs and make themselves look just and good.

Question 5. Did Ali distributed the inheritance of the Prophet (peace be upon him) amongst the inheritors especially Fadak?

Answer 5. No he didn't because they didn't accept him as the successor to Muhammad s.a.w nor was he the first Caliph of the Muslims.

This was the duty of the first Caliph since he took control of the lands and property belonging to Muhammad s.a.w.

Question 6. Is it true that even the Imams didn't mention Imamate to their children? Because we find in the Shia books that some of the children of the Imams were also unaware of the Imamate of their fathers.

Answer 6. I don't think this is true. But being open minded and looking at both sides of the argument, the Imams along with their family, friends, relatives, supporters and believers faced persecution. They were looked at badly and treated brutally. Taqiyyah had been the only choice for some.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 09:49:47 AM by iceman »

iceman

Re: Hundred Questions for Shias
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2019, 09:53:12 AM »
Question 7. Does the Progeny include the 12 Imams only? If not, then how do you exclude the others from the Hadith Thaqalayn?

Answer 7. Yes we do believe that the 12 Imams are from the progeny of the Prophet s.a.w.

1. `Ali Ibn Abi Talib quoted the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as saying: “Al-Mahdi is one of us, the clan of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). Allah will reform him in one night.”
(Reported by Imam Ahmad and Ibn Maqah).

The world will not come to pass until a man from among my family, whose name will be my name, rules over the Arabs.
(Tirmidhi Sahih, Vol. 9, P. 74; Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 5, P. 207;
also narrated by Ali b. Abi Talib, Abu Sa'id, Umm Salma, Abu Hurayra)

The Prophet(SAW) said:

Allah will bring out from concealment al-Mahdi from my family and just before the day of Judgment; even if only one day were to remain in the life of the world, and he will spread on this earth justice and equity and will eradicate tyranny and oppression.
(Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Vol. 1, P. 99)

Hadhrat Ali(RA) narrates that Rasulullah(SAW) said:

Even if only a day remains for Qiyamah to come, yet Allah will surely send a man from my family who will fill this world with such justice and fairness, just as it initially was filled with oppression.
(Abu Dawood)

Ali b. Abi Talib(RA) has related a tradition from the Prophet(SAW) who informed him:

The promised Mahdi will be among my family. God will make the provisions for his emergence within a single night.
(Ibn Majah, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 519)

Hazrat Umme Salmah(RA), Prophet's wife, narrates that she heard the Prophet(SAW) say:

The promised Mahdi will be among my progeny, among the descendants of Fatima.
(Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 207; Ibn Majah, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 519)

Rasulullah(SAW) announced:

The Mahdi will be of my family, of the descendants of Fatima (the Prophet's daughter). (Sunan Ibn Majah, Vol. 2, Tradition No. 4086)

The Prophet(SAW) taught:

Al-Mahdi is one of us, the members of the household (Ahlul-Bayt).
(Sunan Ibn Majah, Vol. 2, Tradition No. 4085)

Abu Sa'id al-Khudari(RA) narrated that the Prophet(SAW) said:

Our Mahdi will have a broad forehead and a pointed (prominent) nose. He will fill the earth with justice as it is filled with injustice and tyranny. He will rule for seven years.
(Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 2, p. 208; Fusul al-muhimma, p. 275)

Hadhrat Abu Saeed Khudri(RA) relates that Rasulullah(SAW) said:

Al Mahdi will be from my progeny. His forehead will be broad and his nose will be high. He will fill the world with justice and fairness at a time when the world will be filled with oppression. He will rule for seven years.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 10:01:34 AM by iceman »

Abu Muhammad

Re: Hundred Questions for Shias
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2019, 01:23:46 PM »
Question 7. Does the Progeny include the 12 Imams only? If not, then how do you exclude the others from the Hadith Thaqalayn?

Answer 7. Yes we do believe that the 12 Imams are from the progeny of the Prophet s.a.w.

1. `Ali Ibn Abi Talib quoted the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as saying: “Al-Mahdi is one of us, the clan of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). Allah will reform him in one night.”
(Reported by Imam Ahmad and Ibn Maqah).

The world will not come to pass until a man from among my family, whose name will be my name, rules over the Arabs.
(Tirmidhi Sahih, Vol. 9, P. 74; Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 5, P. 207;
also narrated by Ali b. Abi Talib, Abu Sa'id, Umm Salma, Abu Hurayra)

The Prophet(SAW) said:

Allah will bring out from concealment al-Mahdi from my family and just before the day of Judgment; even if only one day were to remain in the life of the world, and he will spread on this earth justice and equity and will eradicate tyranny and oppression.
(Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Vol. 1, P. 99)

Hadhrat Ali(RA) narrates that Rasulullah(SAW) said:

Even if only a day remains for Qiyamah to come, yet Allah will surely send a man from my family who will fill this world with such justice and fairness, just as it initially was filled with oppression.
(Abu Dawood)

Ali b. Abi Talib(RA) has related a tradition from the Prophet(SAW) who informed him:

The promised Mahdi will be among my family. God will make the provisions for his emergence within a single night.
(Ibn Majah, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 519)

Hazrat Umme Salmah(RA), Prophet's wife, narrates that she heard the Prophet(SAW) say:

The promised Mahdi will be among my progeny, among the descendants of Fatima.
(Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 207; Ibn Majah, Sahih, Vol. 2, P. 519)

Rasulullah(SAW) announced:

The Mahdi will be of my family, of the descendants of Fatima (the Prophet's daughter). (Sunan Ibn Majah, Vol. 2, Tradition No. 4086)

The Prophet(SAW) taught:

Al-Mahdi is one of us, the members of the household (Ahlul-Bayt).
(Sunan Ibn Majah, Vol. 2, Tradition No. 4085)

Abu Sa'id al-Khudari(RA) narrated that the Prophet(SAW) said:

Our Mahdi will have a broad forehead and a pointed (prominent) nose. He will fill the earth with justice as it is filled with injustice and tyranny. He will rule for seven years.
(Abu Dawud, Sahih, Vol. 2, p. 208; Fusul al-muhimma, p. 275)

Hadhrat Abu Saeed Khudri(RA) relates that Rasulullah(SAW) said:

Al Mahdi will be from my progeny. His forehead will be broad and his nose will be high. He will fill the world with justice and fairness at a time when the world will be filled with oppression. He will rule for seven years.

Poor you. The question asked about something and you answered TOTALLY something else.

iceman

Re: Hundred Questions for Shias
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2019, 02:25:38 PM »
Poor you. The question asked about something and you answered TOTALLY something else.

Thankyou for feeling sorry for me. It's nice of you to show a bit of the soft side. I didn’t know you had one. Why don't you help the poor man out here. Would you like to rephrase the question. Didn't care to comment on anything else or just didn't bother.😊
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 02:30:03 PM by iceman »

iceman

Re: Hundred Questions for Shias
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2019, 02:43:28 PM »
Question 8. How is it possible that the Companions didn't help Ali when Abu Bakr was being chosen as Caliph, but they helped Ali when he fought against Muawiyah?

Answer 8. What kind of help do you mean? Raising arms or going for an armed resistance? Some helped Ali by keeping it peaceful, others sided with either Abu Bakr or just accepted the decision in Saqifa or were made or forced to accept. Some didn't care, who ever or what ever.

Ali didn't fight against Muawiya. Muawiyah didn't fight against Ali. Muawiyah disregarded Ali's position of Caliphate and refused to give allegiance to him over demands concerning the murder of Usman. Muawiyah put up an armed resistance, not against Ali but against the 4th rightly guided Caliph of the Muslims. The situation was different here.

The circumstances concerning the two characters, Abu Bakr and Muawiya, was very different. And they were of different nature and stance as well

Mythbuster1

Re: Hundred Questions for Shias
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2019, 03:27:00 PM »
Poor you. The question asked about something and you answered TOTALLY something else.

That’s just another step of his just short of LYING........he is a bit deranged, you ask him a question and the kid goes on a tangent on something completely different, he tried it with Imamate and divine Imamate on me and was cocky sure he was right and then.......BLANK the unashamed guy that he is didn’t even acknowledge his mistake and kept on being stubborn, whether it’s on purpose or not i don’t know but the kid has less braincells than the average human, human? Chimps better.😜👍

iceman

Re: Hundred Questions for Shias
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2019, 03:30:42 PM »
That’s just another step of his just short of LYING........he is a bit deranged, you ask him a question and the kid goes on a tangent on something completely different, he tried it with Imamate and divine Imamate on me and was cocky sure he was right and then.......BLANK the unashamed guy that he is didn’t even acknowledge his mistake and kept on being stubborn, whether it’s on purpose or not i don’t know but the kid has less braincells than the average human, human? Chimps better.😜👍

Rather than letting off a tantrum and then crying over it, just spell it out. If it's not too difficult for you. Or if it doesn't sting you.

Mythbuster1

Re: Hundred Questions for Shias
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2019, 03:55:17 PM »
Rather than letting off a tantrum and then crying over it, just spell it out. If it's not too difficult for you. Or if it doesn't sting you.

Spell what out? You know what I am talking about as you did say....”give me a moment and I will get the post”........well?? It’s been 2 days and you haven’t produced it or neither apologised for your mistake.
Is this what believing in divine imams does to you?

Abu Muhammad

Re: Hundred Questions for Shias
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2019, 06:21:27 PM »
Thankyou for feeling sorry for me. It's nice of you to show a bit of the soft side. I didn’t know you had one. Why don't you help the poor man out here. Would you like to rephrase the question. Didn't care to comment on anything else or just didn't bother.😊
You make Twelvers look like a fool with your poor comprehension. And I can fully understand why some of the brothers stop responding to you.

Question 7. Does the Progeny include the 12 Imams only? If not, then how do you exclude the others from the Hadith Thaqalayn?

Can't you differentiate between "12 imams" as per asked in the question and "12th imam" as per your answer?

iceman

Re: Hundred Questions for Shias
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2019, 06:45:57 PM »
Spell what out? You know what I am talking about as you did say....”give me a moment and I will get the post”........well?? It’s been 2 days and you haven’t produced it or neither apologised for your mistake.
Is this what believing in divine imams does to you?

What exactly are you talking about. Because you mouth off a lot. You come out with insults and tantrums. You bring in irrelevant stuff. Here's to calm you down.

"Right chuck.......... so what was the test of the imams ra? And when did the Quran and prophet saw Himself state that NOW He Muhammad saw is an imam AFTER passing the test of prophet hood?"

The above is what you said. I believe it was post #33. "Right chuck" you accepted that there is Imamah in the Qur'an just like your buddy Muslim 720 who also accepted.

First you danced around Imamah and put up a confrontational stance. Then you accepted Imamah and now you are dancing over divinity.

Mythbuster1

Re: Hundred Questions for Shias
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2019, 07:11:11 PM »
What exactly are you talking about. Because you mouth off a lot. You come out with insults and tantrums. You bring in irrelevant stuff. Here's to calm you down.

"Right chuck.......... so what was the test of the imams ra? And when did the Quran and prophet saw Himself state that NOW He Muhammad saw is an imam AFTER passing the test of prophet hood?"

The above is what you said. I believe it was post #33. "Right chuck" you accepted that there is Imamah in the Qur'an just like your buddy Muslim 720 who also accepted.

First you danced around Imamah and put up a confrontational stance. Then you accepted Imamah and now you are dancing over divinity.

You deceitful little lying rat yes you are and I honestly mean that, that post of mine you quoted you lying rat was about DIVINE imams the THEME of our correspondence was on DIVINE imams and you knew that hence your replies back to me, don’t twist it now just because I didn’t write DIVINE in front of the word imam and you take it as proof I agree with Imamate (your fake version) in Quran? The DIVINE fake Imamate? Seriously? Are you for real? I mean how old are you, really.

I never disagreed there wasn’t mention of imams in the Quran NUMPTY!!

Your divine Imamate the imamah the Shiite concept/theory has no place in the Quran or in the verse you keep posting there is no divine Imamate concept theory or man, you just added that bit yourself.😉

That question from my post still stands and you never answered it instead you went into a frenzy and started  lies and excuses as can be seen......liar!

Stop lying and making excuses and trying to find ways out when cornered, be a man and admit your blunders, don’t be following liars and using their arguments, it only makes you into one as evidenced in this forum.


muslim720

Re: Hundred Questions for Shias
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2019, 11:47:11 PM »
CAN YOU PROVE IT FROM THE QUR'AN. CAN YOU REALLY DIG IT.

It is extremely hypocritical of you to try to (in vain) prove Imamah and then disobey your own Imams (ra) on the punishment for not paying or giving Zakat, lol.

Quote
HE DIDN'T.

Denial of facts won't help you!  Your own books admit that Umar (ra) was married to the daughter of Imam Ali (ra).

Quote
He wasn't good enough for Fatima. He was turned down there point blank.

You are the first person who I am hearing this from!  Please prove to me, using authentic sources, that Umar (ra) proposed for Fatima's (ra) hand.

Quote
Would you marry your daughter to a great grandfather? He was Fatima's grandfather. So that would make him Kulsoom's great grandfather.

I may not marry my daughter to a great-grandfather but your first "infallible" Imam (ra) did.

Quote
These silly stories were created by the Ummayads.

These stories are authentically narrated in your own books.  Are you saying that the Ummayads fabricated your books?  Hahaha!

Quote
Come again. Since you and your sidekicks bring in so much irrelevant stuff one does loose track. It's obvious if you've got a pack of hyenas to deal with at the same time.

Irrelevant stuff?  You asked me to account for the following hadith:
Narrated by Anas:
A group of people from 'Ukl (tribe) came to the Prophet and they were living with the people of As-Suffa, but they became ill as the climate of Medina did not suit them, so they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with milk."  The Prophet said, I see no other way for you than to use the camels of Allah's Apostle."  So they went and drank the milk and urine of the camels, (as medicine) and became healthy and fat.  Then they killed the shepherd and took the camels away.  When a help-seeker came to Allah's Apostle, he sent some men in their pursuit, and they were captured and brought before mid day.  The Prophet ordered for some iron pieces to be made red hot, and their eyes were branded with them and their hands and feet were cut off and were not cauterized.  Then they were put at a place called Al-Harra, and when they asked for water to drink they were not given till they died.

The Qur'an answers you:
"The recompense of those who fight Allah and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is their disgrace in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great torment." (Qur'an 5:33)
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: Hundred Questions for Shias
« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2019, 01:56:29 AM »
It is extremely hypocritical of you to try to (in vain) prove Imamah and then disobey your own Imams (ra) on the punishment for not paying or giving Zakat, lol."

I don't know what the fuss is all about. There is something in the books, be it kutab e Arbaa or sehih sitha, it doesn't matter, all I'm asking is 'is there any sort of proof within the Qur'an of such an important matter'. That's all I'm asking. Or do you believe that it isn't necessary that every important and serious matter has to be mentioned or given in the Qur'an.

For example, if the government makes a decision and orders employers, businesses, banks etc to deduct Zakat straight out of people's income be it accounts, salary etc and it goes to the treasury, is this allowed according to Sharia law? Can the government or local authority take zakat from you in such a manner? What does the Qur'an say about this.

Example two, inheritance is the right of every Muslim and Muslimah. Now according to the Qur'an if one asks for her share of inheritance and the other denies it because of a hadith on such an important matter that "We (Messengers and Prophets) do not leave anything behind for inheritance and to be inherited, but what we do leave behind is for charity and charitable purpose ony", this is a very important and serious matter. Any indication of this in the Qur'an?

Or can anyone come up with anything they like and say and we take it at face value and their character is good enough for it to be accepted regardless of how the other feels and sees?

muslim720

Re: Hundred Questions for Shias
« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2019, 04:56:03 AM »
I don't know what the fuss is all about. There is something in the books, be it kutab e Arbaa or sehih sitha, it doesn't matter, all I'm asking is 'is there any sort of proof within the Qur'an of such an important matter'.

The fuss, melting Iceman, is that you would not have had a particular form of theology without your four main books.  Furthermore, disobedience to the Imams (ra) is kufr, according to your school.  You have two choices now:

1.  Accept your authentic narrations and stop defending Malik bin Nuwayrah.

                                               OR

2.  Unsubscribe from Shiaism.

Quote
That's all I'm asking. Or do you believe that it isn't necessary that every important and serious matter has to be mentioned or given in the Qur'an.

Zakat is mentioned in the Qur'an and is therefore a Qur'anic injunction.  Disbelief in a Qur'anic teaching renders one to be an apostate.  Your books and ours agree with this principle.  Only you are looking to split hair.

Quote
For example, if the government makes a decision and orders employers, businesses, banks etc to deduct Zakat straight out of people's income be it accounts, salary etc and it goes to the treasury, is this allowed according to Sharia law? Can the government or local authority take zakat from you in such a manner? What does the Qur'an say about this.

Malik did not challenge the methodology of collecting Zakat; he openly declared that Zakat had been abolished.  You are actually making this more and more embarrassing for yourself instead of helping your case.

Quote
Example two, inheritance is the right of every Muslim and Muslimah. Now according to the Qur'an if one asks for her share of inheritance and the other denies it because of a hadith on such an important matter that "We (Messengers and Prophets) do not leave anything behind for inheritance and to be inherited, but what we do leave behind is for charity and charitable purpose ony", this is a very important and serious matter. Any indication of this in the Qur'an?

Classic Iceman!  Introducing another irrelevant matter!

Quote
Or can anyone come up with anything they like and say and we take it at face value and their character is good enough for it to be accepted regardless of how the other feels and sees?

Like you!  Running your mouth and then getting owned. 

Stop running from your own blunder.  Although many to keep track of, please respond to this:

Narrated by Anas:
A group of people from 'Ukl (tribe) came to the Prophet and they were living with the people of As-Suffa, but they became ill as the climate of Medina did not suit them, so they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with milk."  The Prophet said, I see no other way for you than to use the camels of Allah's Apostle."  So they went and drank the milk and urine of the camels, (as medicine) and became healthy and fat.  Then they killed the shepherd and took the camels away.  When a help-seeker came to Allah's Apostle, he sent some men in their pursuit, and they were captured and brought before mid day.  The Prophet ordered for some iron pieces to be made red hot, and their eyes were branded with them and their hands and feet were cut off and were not cauterized.  Then they were put at a place called Al-Harra, and when they asked for water to drink they were not given till they died.

The Qur'an answers you:
"The recompense of those who fight Allah and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is their disgrace in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great torment." (Qur'an 5:33)

Do you retract your statement that such a punishment violates the Qur'an and Sunnah?
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: Hundred Questions for Shias
« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2019, 03:45:43 PM »
The fuss, melting Iceman, is that you would not have had a particular form of theology without your four main books.  Furthermore, disobedience to the Imams (ra) is kufr, according to your school.  You have two choices now:

1.  Accept your authentic narrations and stop defending Malik bin Nuwayrah.

                                               OR

2.  Unsubscribe from Shiaism.

Zakat is mentioned in the Qur'an and is therefore a Qur'anic injunction.  Disbelief in a Qur'anic teaching renders one to be an apostate.  Your books and ours agree with this principle.  Only you are looking to split hair.

Malik did not challenge the methodology of collecting Zakat; he openly declared that Zakat had been abolished.  You are actually making this more and more embarrassing for yourself instead of helping your case.

Classic Iceman!  Introducing another irrelevant matter!

Like you!  Running your mouth and then getting owned. 

Stop running from your own blunder.  Although many to keep track of, please respond to this:

Narrated by Anas:
A group of people from 'Ukl (tribe) came to the Prophet and they were living with the people of As-Suffa, but they became ill as the climate of Medina did not suit them, so they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with milk."  The Prophet said, I see no other way for you than to use the camels of Allah's Apostle."  So they went and drank the milk and urine of the camels, (as medicine) and became healthy and fat.  Then they killed the shepherd and took the camels away.  When a help-seeker came to Allah's Apostle, he sent some men in their pursuit, and they were captured and brought before mid day.  The Prophet ordered for some iron pieces to be made red hot, and their eyes were branded with them and their hands and feet were cut off and were not cauterized.  Then they were put at a place called Al-Harra, and when they asked for water to drink they were not given till they died.

The Qur'an answers you:
"The recompense of those who fight Allah and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is their disgrace in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great torment." (Qur'an 5:33)

Do you retract your statement that such a punishment violates the Qur'an and Sunnah?

Whether it's the 4 books or the 6 books, they all depend and rely on one main book, and that is the Qur'an. Otherwise anyone can come up with anything and start believing in it.

Apart from this there are many things in these books, be it 4 or 6 it doesn't matter, which aren't accepted by both parties, and one (from both sides) has asked references from the Qur'an to confirm its authenticity and legitimacy.

Either accept this, the Qur'an is the main and only sources. And if someone can't back it up what ever it may be then you're just beating around the bush.

Or accept this, it is not necessary that everything serious and important has to be in and from the Qur'an. And the words of Aimah, Auliya, Scholars etc is enough and acceptable.

You can't and shouldn't have DOUBLE STANDARDS. When you're given references from books you refuse to accept them and you bang on about the Qur'an. But you believe in the books and you provide references from the same books to prove and your claim.

At the end of your post you've mentioned a narration from Anas and you've backed it straight and direct from the Qur'an. But some narrations I've provided or you've put forward and I've asked you to do exactly the same thing and that is back it up from the Qur'an.

And you........

muslim720

Re: Hundred Questions for Shias
« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2019, 04:03:49 PM »
Apart from this there are many things in these books, be it 4 or 6 it doesn't matter, which aren't accepted by both parties, and one (from both sides) has asked references from the Qur'an to confirm its authenticity and legitimacy.

So we can safely conclude that you argue for Imamah, however, you do not obey the Imams (ra) yourself.  Very convenient!

Quote
Either accept this, the Qur'an is the main and only sources. And if someone can't back it up what ever it may be then you're just beating around the bush.

I darkened your face using the Qur'an and you are still running from it.

Narrated by Anas:
A group of people from 'Ukl (tribe) came to the Prophet and they were living with the people of As-Suffa, but they became ill as the climate of Medina did not suit them, so they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with milk."  The Prophet said, I see no other way for you than to use the camels of Allah's Apostle."  So they went and drank the milk and urine of the camels, (as medicine) and became healthy and fat.  Then they killed the shepherd and took the camels away.  When a help-seeker came to Allah's Apostle, he sent some men in their pursuit, and they were captured and brought before mid day.  The Prophet ordered for some iron pieces to be made red hot, and their eyes were branded with them and their hands and feet were cut off and were not cauterized.  Then they were put at a place called Al-Harra, and when they asked for water to drink they were not given till they died.

The Qur'an answers you:
"The recompense of those who fight Allah and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is their disgrace in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great torment." (Qur'an 5:33)

Waiting for you to retract your statement and issue an apology.

Quote
Or accept this, it is not necessary that everything serious and important has to be in and from the Qur'an. And the words of Aimah, Auliya, Scholars etc is enough and acceptable.

Important Islamic injunctions must be mentioned in the Qur'an.  Their details can be found in authentic Sunnah but matters of creed must be rooted in the Qur'an.

Quote
You can't and shouldn't have DOUBLE STANDARDS.

Says the guy who supports Imamah but refuses to obey the Imams (ra), lol.

Quote
At the end of your post you've mentioned a narration from Anas and you've backed it straight and direct from the Qur'an. But some narrations I've provided or you've put forward and I've asked you to do exactly the same thing and that is back it up from the Qur'an.

Oh, I see!  So you will keep posting narrations to see how many I can link back to the Qur'an.  No, we do not play by your rules.  I just wanted to show you that you do not know the Qur'an.  And that is your auqaat!
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: Hundred Questions for Shias
« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2019, 09:29:44 PM »
So we can safely conclude that you argue for Imamah, however, you do not obey the Imams (ra) yourself.  Very convenient!

I darkened your face using the Qur'an and you are still running from it.

Narrated by Anas:
A group of people from 'Ukl (tribe) came to the Prophet and they were living with the people of As-Suffa, but they became ill as the climate of Medina did not suit them, so they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with milk."  The Prophet said, I see no other way for you than to use the camels of Allah's Apostle."  So they went and drank the milk and urine of the camels, (as medicine) and became healthy and fat.  Then they killed the shepherd and took the camels away.  When a help-seeker came to Allah's Apostle, he sent some men in their pursuit, and they were captured and brought before mid day.  The Prophet ordered for some iron pieces to be made red hot, and their eyes were branded with them and their hands and feet were cut off and were not cauterized.  Then they were put at a place called Al-Harra, and when they asked for water to drink they were not given till they died.

The Qur'an answers you:
"The recompense of those who fight Allah and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is their disgrace in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great torment." (Qur'an 5:33)

Waiting for you to retract your statement and issue an apology.

Important Islamic injunctions must be mentioned in the Qur'an.  Their details can be found in authentic Sunnah but matters of creed must be rooted in the Qur'an.

Says the guy who supports Imamah but refuses to obey the Imams (ra), lol.

Oh, I see!  So you will keep posting narrations to see how many I can link back to the Qur'an.  No, we do not play by your rules.  I just wanted to show you that you do not know the Qur'an.  And that is your auqaat!

"So we can safely conclude that you argue for Imamah, however, you do not obey the Imams (ra) yourself.  Very convenient!"

Or you can safely conclude that it isn't necessary that everything serious and important has to be in and from the Qur'an. Other sources, be it books or individuals, are acceptable.

If you agree to something and it suits you and your happy with then there is no need to turn towards the Qur'an. And if vice versa then you should also safely conclude that there is no need to turn towards the Qur'an.

I don't have anything against you, just your DOUBLE STANDARDS.

"I darkened your face using the Qur'an and you are still running from it"

No you haven't. I keep asking you to do exactly that but you keep running away on to other things just to divert attention.

About Zakah and about Fadak, both issues,  please do darken my face USING THE QUR'AN.

"Waiting for you to retract your statement and issue an apology"

I'm waiting for you to do exactly the same with the issue concerning Zakah and Fadak.

"No, we do not play by your rules"

I absolutely agree 100%. SO DON'T GET US TO PLAY BY YOURS EITHER.

"I just wanted to show you that you do not know the Qur'an.  And that is your auqaat!"

And I presume that you do? So prove and back the following from the Qur'an.

iceman

Re: Hundred Questions for Shias
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2019, 12:38:51 AM »
Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet said,

"Our (Apostles') property should not be inherited, and whatever we leave, is to be spent in charity."

Abu Bakr said:

" I have heard from Allah's Apostle saying, 'Our property cannot be inherited, and whatever we leave is to be spent in charity"

Prove to me from the Qur'an that if you don't pay Zakah then you are subject to capital punishment.

Prove to me from the Qur'an that the ruling government have the right to take Zakah off you even against your will.

Go on, darken my face, prove this from the Qur'an.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 12:47:03 AM by iceman »

Abu Muhammad

Re: Hundred Questions for Shias
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2019, 03:50:49 AM »
You make Twelvers look like a fool with your poor comprehension. And I can fully understand why some of the brothers stop responding to you.

Can't you differentiate between "12 imams" as per asked in the question and "12th imam" as per your answer?

Have you able to comprehend Question 7, @iceman?

muslim720

Re: Hundred Questions for Shias
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2019, 04:41:16 AM »
Or you can safely conclude that it isn't necessary that everything serious and important has to be in and from the Qur'an. Other sources, be it books or individuals, are acceptable.

No, it is very clear for everyone to see that the one preaching Imamah cannot seem to obey his own "infallible" Imams (ra).  I do not blame you; it is easier to write about, and preach, fiction than to believe it.

As for every serious matter being in the Qur'an, Zakat is in the Qur'an whereas Imamah (in the Shi'i sense) is not.  I know it hurts; that is why we see you flatter in pain all over the place.

Quote
No you haven't. I keep asking you to do exactly that but you keep running away on to other things just to divert attention.

In Urdu, they say, "choree uppar se seena zoree".  In Dari, which is similar to your "divine" language of Farsi, we say, "naree wa gharee".

You brought a hadith from our book regarding certain men having their hands and feet chopped off and left to die.  On that basis, you said that our books contain "crap" and openly declared that such a practice is against the Qur'an and Sunnah.  I showed you the exact punishment from the Qur'an.  The fact that you are still arguing with me, instead of realizing your blunder and keeping your mouth shut, gives us a glimpse of your endless shamelessness.  However, I am not surprised.  So many Shias before you, even Syed Ali of Bayat-al-Ghadeer, mocked one of our narrations in one of the Sahihain and then we found out that the exact same thing is mentioned in the Qur'an.

We gave you the Qur'an, we educate you on it regularly and not even a thank-you.

Quote
About Zakah and about Fadak, both issues,  please do darken my face USING THE QUR'AN.

I'm waiting for you to do exactly the same with the issue concerning Zakah and Fadak.

Regarding Zakah, your own "infallible" Imam (ra) has declared refusal to pay or give Zakah a form of apostasy, punishable by death.  The fact that you reject the statement of your own Imam (ra) tells me that you will reject my Qur'anic references (on Fadak) which is exactly why I will share those references. 

As for Fadak, another red-herring introduced in the discussion, the Qur'an categorically and explicitly rejects the notion that Fay (which Fadak was) can have individual owners.

Surah Hashr verse 7:
"What God has bestowed on His Apostle (and taken away) from the people of the townships,- belongs to God,- to His Apostle and to kindred and orphans, the needy and the wayfarer; in order that it may not (merely) make a circuit between the wealthy among you. So take what the Apostle assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear God; for God is strict in Punishment."

Translation, such a property cannot be under the ownership of a few, let alone one individual.

Quote
And I presume that you do? So prove and back the following from the Qur'an.

I did!  The Qur'an agrees with the punishment meted out to those men (as stated in Sahih Bukhari) and it also refutes the notion that Fay can have individual owner(s).
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 04:43:05 AM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

 

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