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Yet Another devastating blow to imamah

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TAHIR

Yet Another devastating blow to imamah
« on: February 08, 2020, 04:55:08 PM »
This is going to be an interesting post inshallah. And it will give you a smell of a confusion similar to the one In Trinity in imamah
We first quote a narration from Al kafi

Ahmad ibn Muhammad and Muhammad ibn Yahya have narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Husayn from Ali ibn Hassan from Faddal from Ali ibn Ya'qub al-Hashimi from Marwan ibn Muslim from Burayd who has said the following.
"I asked abu Ja‘far (a.s.) about the words of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, "Satan would try to tamper with the desires of every Prophet or Messenger or Muhaddith (Muhaddith is a commentary of Imam (a.s.), whom We sent . . .’" (22:52). I said, ""May Allah take my soul in service for your cause, the word Muhaddith does not exist in our reading. What then is the meaning of The Messenger, Prophet and Muhaddith?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "A messenger is one to whom the angel comes openly and speaks to him. A prophet is one who sees in his dream. Sometimes prophethood and messengership may exist in one person. Al-Muhaddith is one who hears the voice but does not see the person (of the angel)." I then asked, may Allah keep you well, "How would one know that what one sees in his dream is true and that it is from the angel?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "He receives help for success to know the angel. Allah has your book the last book and your Prophet the last of prophets."
http://www.alseraj.net/maktaba/kotob/english/Hadeeths/AlKafi/html/eng/books/hadith/al-kafi/part4/part4-ch3.htm
Hadith no 423.
Now three points are worth notice.
1. Messenger sees angles
2.prophet sees them in dream (not while awake)
3. And imam only hears him (neither does he see him in dream nor awake)

So it will take a no genius to figure if some body is an imam he must not be a prophet and he must not be an angle.
And prophet can't be imam and can't be Messenger .
Similar inter relationships can be established.

But then Shia will also argue Ibrahim (a.s) was a ist a servant of Allah then a prophet then a messenger and finally an imam.

Now two points
1. How can he become an imam and a messenger and a  prophet all at once
the messenger is not Prophet, the prophet is not imam but they are all in one
Secondly
of all the progression doesn't make any sense.
He is first a servant fine
Then a prophet fine
Then a messenger fine
By now he is hearing and seeing the angles
What is that he has more to become
He is already has the quality of hearing also.


« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 12:55:10 PM by TAHIR »

TAHIR

Re: Yet Another devastating blow to imamah
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2020, 05:00:49 PM »
H 420, Ch. 2, h 4

Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Muhammad ibn al-Hassan from Ishaq ibn ‘Abd al-‘Aziz from abu al-Saffah from Jabir from abu Ja‘far (a.s.) has said the following.
"I heard the Imam saying, ‘Allah chose Abraham as a servant before He chose him as a prophet. He chose him as a prophet before He chose him as a messenger. He chose him as a messenger before He chose him as a friend of His. He chose him as a friend of His before He chose him as an Imam. When all of these things gathered in him (the Imam holding his hands said, "Allah said, ‘O Ibrahim I have appointed you as the Imam (leader) of the people." Because of the greatness of the position Abraham them asked, "O Lord, can it be in my descendants also?" The Lord said, ‘My covenant does not go to the unjust ones
http://www.alseraj.net/maktaba/kotob/english/Hadeeths/AlKafi/html/eng/books/hadith/al-kafi/part4/part4-ch2.htm

I believe both the narrations offered are authentic as per majlisi will provide links to his authentication timely

TAHIR

Re: Yet Another devastating blow to imamah
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2020, 07:30:40 AM »
Oaps ! The second narration is weak as per majlisi ,but doesn't bother us , because the aqeedah is established among all tashayu that ibraheem (a.s) was a prophet imam and messenger!


Mythbuster1

Re: Yet Another devastating blow to imamah
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2020, 12:24:19 PM »
This is going to be an interesting post inshallah. And it will give you a smell of a confusion similar to the one In Trinity in imamah
We first quote a narration from Al kafi

Ahmad ibn Muhammad and Muhammad ibn Yahya have narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Husayn from Ali ibn Hassan from Faddal from Ali ibn Ya'qub al-Hashimi from Marwan ibn Muslim from Burayd who has said the following.
"I asked abu Ja‘far (a.s.) about the words of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, "Satan would try to tamper with the desires of every Prophet or Messenger or Muhaddith (Muhaddith is a commentary of Imam (a.s.), whom We sent . . .’" (22:52). I said, ""May Allah take my soul in service for your cause, the word Muhaddith does not exist in our reading. What then is the meaning of The Messenger, Prophet and Muhaddith?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "A messenger is one to whom the angel comes openly and speaks to him. A prophet is one who sees in his dream. Sometimes prophethood and messengership may exist in one person. Al-Muhaddith is one who hears the voice but does not see the person (of the angel)." I then asked, may Allah keep you well, "How would one know that what one sees in his dream is true and that it is from the angel?" The Imam (a.s.) said, "He receives help for success to know the angel. Allah has your book the last book and your Prophet the last of prophets."
http://www.alseraj.net/maktaba/kotob/english/Hadeeths/AlKafi/html/eng/books/hadith/al-kafi/part4/part4-ch3.htm
Hadith no 423.
Now three points are worth notice.
1. Messenger sees angles
2.prophet sees them in dream (not while awake)
3. And imam only hears him (neither does he see him in dream nor awake)

So it will take a no genius to figure if some body is an imam he must not be a prophet and he must not be an angle.
And prophet can't be imam and can't be Messenger .
Similar inter relationships can be established.

But then Shia will also argue Ibrahim (a.s) was a ist a servant of Allah then a prophet then a messenger and finally an imam.

Now two points
1. How can he become an imam and a messenger and a  prophet all at once
the messenger is not Prophet, the prophet is not imam but they are all in one
Secondly
of all the progression doesn't make any sense.
He is first a servant fine
Then a prophet fine
Then a messenger fine
By now he is hearing and seeing the angles
What is that he has more to become
He is already has the quality of hearing also.




Good points.

According to icemans correspondence with me, Imamate is the final goal the ultimate goal AFTER prophethood reason being because of the verse of Ibrahim and how Allah swt has made that verse to include Imamate AFTER prophethood so it must mean a divine station that comes AFTER prophethood in this case Ibrahim as was tested and passed and now He moved to a higher status......Imamate!

That is it!!

Imamate is the ultimate station.........don’t know how and why but it is, according to iceman because it is WRITTEN in the verse of Aibrahim as so it must be!! And if you don’t believe that then you must be blind and full of hate for Shias.

Imamate Is just a cesspit of confusion even the not so smart sunnies are wise to this odd concept.

iceman

Re: Yet Another devastating blow to imamah
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2020, 11:02:27 AM »
Good points.

According to icemans correspondence with me, Imamate is the final goal the ultimate goal AFTER prophethood reason being because of the verse of Ibrahim and how Allah swt has made that verse to include Imamate AFTER prophethood so it must mean a divine station that comes AFTER prophethood in this case Ibrahim as was tested and passed and now He moved to a higher status......Imamate!

That is it!!

Imamate is the ultimate station.........don’t know how and why but it is, according to iceman because it is WRITTEN in the verse of Aibrahim as so it must be!! And if you don’t believe that then you must be blind and full of hate for Shias.

Imamate Is just a cesspit of confusion even the not so smart sunnies are wise to this odd concept.

You've got it wrong. You always do. Because you don't ask, question, point out or discuss based on learning and getting to know. And don't put words in my mouth. Let me break it down for the readers and viewers so they don't misunderstand and get caught up in your mischief about Shias and their belief.

Can you prove Imamah from the Qur'an? Or does Imamah exist in the Qur'an? Or is there any reference of Imamah in the Qur'an? Or does Imamah come from Allah just as Messenger hood and Prophecy? The answer to these questions is YES. References have been provided for this but I'll put them forward again in the next post just for the readers and viewers. After all we're dealing with mischief here. And we don't want people getting caught up in it.

Now is Imamah higher and above Nabuwwah and Risalat? Taking a look at the Qur'an and what's within it, the answer based on that would be YES but also not necessarily. We go by our thoughts, opinions and point of view, we go by what we believe, assume and or think of rather than taking and looking for an answer or solution for a question or problem from the Qur'an. That's where things have gone wrong.

And that is by trying to sort it out ourselves and according to our way and desire. You ask a question and expect an answer that you want to hear based on your desire and what's suits you. You are looking for a solution to a problem but again based on your desire and what suits you. This is where things are going wrong.

Khaled

Re: Yet Another devastating blow to imamah
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2020, 06:28:08 PM »
You've got it wrong. You always do. Because you don't ask, question, point out or discuss based on learning and getting to know. And don't put words in my mouth. Let me break it down for the readers and viewers so they don't misunderstand and get caught up in your mischief about Shias and their belief.

I seriously don't know how you think what you are about to say differs from what is quoted.

Quote
Can you prove Imamah from the Qur'an? Or does Imamah exist in the Qur'an? Or is there any reference of Imamah in the Qur'an? Or does Imamah come from Allah just as Messenger hood and Prophecy? The answer to these questions is YES. References have been provided for this but I'll put them forward again in the next post just for the readers and viewers. After all we're dealing with mischief here. And we don't want people getting caught up in it.

Actually, no one disagrees that the word Imam is found in the Qur'an, lol.  What we disagree with is that when the word Imam shows up in the Qur'an, that it means what the 12er Shi'a call Imamate.  We have discussed this DOZENS of times, and you cannot seem to fathom what is being said to you.  Prove the 12er Imamates from the Qur'an, not that Imams (i.e. leaders) exist in the Qur'an.  The problem is that it is obvious that you understand this, and yet still, you keep using the same old argument that "Imama can be proven from the Qur'an" while using the same verse over and over again. Well, I can say that you can pray to become an Imam because Allah says in the Qur'an:

Quote
   
And those who say: "Our Lord! Bestow on us from our wives and our offspring the comfort of our eyes, and make us leaders of the Muttaqun."

The word used is Imam for leaders, I didn't bother quoting it in Arabic because that would be a waste of time of course.

Quote
Now is Imamah higher and above Nabuwwah and Risalat? Taking a look at the Qur'an and what's within it, the answer based on that would be YES but also not necessarily.

See what is wrong with your belief?  You give us an affirmative YES as if your belief is clear as day in the Qur'an, then immediately switch to saying not necessarily.  You didn't even wait a whole sentence to contradict yourself.  Imamah is not a higher station than Prophethood, because if it was, we wouldn't be able to pray to be Imams (see 25:74).  Unless, of course, you know some ayaat or ahadeeth, or statements of the Imams, which tell us that one can pray to be a Prophet!

Quote
And that is by trying to sort it out ourselves and according to our way and desire. You ask a question and expect an answer that you want to hear based on your desire and what's suits you. You are looking for a solution to a problem but again based on your desire and what suits you. This is where things are going wrong.

How do know the brother's intention and what is in his heart?
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

iceman

Re: Yet Another devastating blow to imamah
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2020, 09:21:57 AM »
I seriously don't know how you think what you are about to say differs from what is quoted.

Actually, no one disagrees that the word Imam is found in the Qur'an, lol.  What we disagree with is that when the word Imam shows up in the Qur'an, that it means what the 12er Shi'a call Imamate.  We have discussed this DOZENS of times, and you cannot seem to fathom what is being said to you.  Prove the 12er Imamates from the Qur'an, not that Imams (i.e. leaders) exist in the Qur'an.  The problem is that it is obvious that you understand this, and yet still, you keep using the same old argument that "Imama can be proven from the Qur'an" while using the same verse over and over again. Well, I can say that you can pray to become an Imam because Allah says in the Qur'an:

The word used is Imam for leaders, I didn't bother quoting it in Arabic because that would be a waste of time of course.

See what is wrong with your belief?  You give us an affirmative YES as if your belief is clear as day in the Qur'an, then immediately switch to saying not necessarily.  You didn't even wait a whole sentence to contradict yourself.  Imamah is not a higher station than Prophethood, because if it was, we wouldn't be able to pray to be Imams (see 25:74).  Unless, of course, you know some ayaat or ahadeeth, or statements of the Imams, which tell us that one can pray to be a Prophet!

How do know the brother's intention and what is in his heart?

"Prove the 12er Imamates from the Qur'an, not that Imams (i.e. leaders) exist in the Qur'an"

I was asked and this has been asked on numerous occasions that PROVE IMAMAH FROM THE QUR'AN, which I have and has been proven by us again and again. And now we are asked;

"Prove the 12er Imamates from the Qur'an, not that Imams (i.e. leaders) exist in the Qur'an"

Now I personally have addressed this before and now I will do it again just to put the misunderstanding and misconception created through mischief to rest again by the Anti Shia campaigners.

Is it absolutely necessary that everything has to be from the Qur'an in the exact way and manner specified by you and your kind? Exactly how you want it and the way you want it? If the answer is yes and lets go by yes to move this discussion forward and by staying on the right track.

Then you believe in Messenger hood. And you believe that there has been 124,000 Messengers. That's the exact and main belief of the Muslims, you and your kind. Now I'm not going to ask you to prove Messenger hood (Nabuwwah) from the Qur'an but I'm going to ask you to prove the 124,000er Nabuwwah from the Qur'an, just in the shape and form of you asking me to not prove Imamah from the Qur'an but to prove the 12er Imamah from the Qur'an. Can you do that? Will you do that? CAN YOU DELIVER EXACTLY AND IN THE SAME MANNER AS YOU ASK AND DEMAND? Or how are you going to answer and address this? I'll leave it to you.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2020, 09:25:22 AM by iceman »

Mythbuster1

Re: Yet Another devastating blow to imamah
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2020, 04:08:32 PM »
You've got it wrong. You always do. Because you don't ask, question, point out or discuss based on learning and getting to know. And don't put words in my mouth. Let me break it down for the readers and viewers so they don't misunderstand and get caught up in your mischief about Shias and their belief.

Can you prove Imamah from the Qur'an? Or does Imamah exist in the Qur'an? Or is there any reference of Imamah in the Qur'an? Or does Imamah come from Allah just as Messenger hood and Prophecy? The answer to these questions is YES. References have been provided for this but I'll put them forward again in the next post just for the readers and viewers. After all we're dealing with mischief here. And we don't want people getting caught up in it.

Now is Imamah higher and above Nabuwwah and Risalat? Taking a look at the Qur'an and what's within it, the answer based on that would be YES but also not necessarily. We go by our thoughts, opinions and point of view, we go by what we believe, assume and or think of rather than taking and looking for an answer or solution for a question or problem from the Qur'an. That's where things have gone wrong.

And that is by trying to sort it out ourselves and according to our way and desire. You ask a question and expect an answer that you want to hear based on your desire and what's suits you. You are looking for a solution to a problem but again based on your desire and what suits you. This is where things are going wrong.


I believe infact I know I haven’t got anything wrong it’s more to do with your explanations and tafseers of verses where you have to add in the concept of divine Imamate, honestly it’s as simple as that.

You can post the whole Quran if you like but like I keep saying as well as billions of Muslims that there is no divine Imamate concept or idea in the Quran again it’s you and your kind who keep banging on about it and using vague verses to try and prove it, this is where you lot go wrong and can EASILY be rebuked by ANY Muslim who reads and understands Quran.

I asked a question and basically you cannot answer with clear proofs or evidences.........instead it’s my fault because I don’t wanna hear what I want to hear and am not interested in the solution. Yeah right.

Look at the confusion you yourself are in

“Imamate is higher than prophethood but not necessarily.”

So Imamate is higher than prophethood but it’s not required???

Iceman:
“We go by our thoughts, opinions and point of view, we go by what we believe, assume and or think of rather than taking and looking for an answer or solution for a question or problem from the Qur'an”

Your opinions have no room in Quran,your point of view isn’t in the Quran I do agree that you assume and think it is hence you will NEVER get an answer from the Quran full stop........This is where you go wrong kid.

iceman

Re: Yet Another devastating blow to imamah
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2020, 08:49:46 PM »
I believe infact I know I haven’t got anything wrong it’s more to do with your explanations and tafseers of verses where you have to add in the concept of divine Imamate, honestly it’s as simple as that.

You can post the whole Quran if you like but like I keep saying as well as billions of Muslims that there is no divine Imamate concept or idea in the Quran again it’s you and your kind who keep banging on about it and using vague verses to try and prove it, this is where you lot go wrong and can EASILY be rebuked by ANY Muslim who reads and understands Quran.

I asked a question and basically you cannot answer with clear proofs or evidences.........instead it’s my fault because I don’t wanna hear what I want to hear and am not interested in the solution. Yeah right.

Look at the confusion you yourself are in

“Imamate is higher than prophethood but not necessarily.”

So Imamate is higher than prophethood but it’s not required???

Iceman:
“We go by our thoughts, opinions and point of view, we go by what we believe, assume and or think of rather than taking and looking for an answer or solution for a question or problem from the Qur'an”

Your opinions have no room in Quran,your point of view isn’t in the Quran I do agree that you assume and think it is hence you will NEVER get an answer from the Quran full stop........This is where you go wrong kid.

"I believe infact I know I haven’t got anything wrong it’s more to do with your explanations and tafseers of verses where you have to add in the concept of divine Imamate, honestly it’s as simple as that"

I don't add or subtract anything. Quran is divine itself. Every single word is divine. Allah is divine who's words are the verses. The Holy scriptures are divine. And the ones they were revealed on were divine. For you divinity ends with certain Companions taking matters into their own hands. For us divinity was from the very beginning till the very end. But just as previous nations disregarded and took matters into their own hands and then certain people tried to justify it over the years to come, Muhammad's s.a.w Ummah went into the same direction after his death. Infact during it by rejecting what he had to offer by asking for pen and paper.

"You can post the whole Quran if you like but like I keep saying as well as billions of Muslims that there is no divine Imamate concept or idea in the Quran"

This is the sound of an arrogant ignorant or ignorant arrogant, which ever way it suits you. The concept of divine Imamate is absolutely and definitely in the Qur'an. You're too blind to see it or are playing blind just to save the concept of Saqifa and to save Caliphate otherwise it's ripped to shredds. Believe me I understand, to save a handful of companions and their merry men or cheer leaders and what they did and got up to is your prime objective.

"vague verses" Astaghfirullah this is an insult to the Qur'an and Allah "vague verses" La haula wala kuwat. I'm shocked at your thinking. You've been low before but I've never seen you go this low.

"I asked a question and basically you cannot answer with clear proofs or evidences.........instead it’s my fault because I don’t wanna hear what I want to hear and am not interested in the solution. Yeah right"

Everything you've asked I've answered. Tell me what I haven't.

"“Imamate is higher than prophethood but not necessarily.”

So Imamate is higher than prophethood but it’s not required???"

The first thing is point out where I said this. The second thing is ask for an explanation rather than asking then answering yourself on my behalf then passing judgement. That's all you seem to do.

We go by Allah and his Prophet s.a.w by Qur'an and Sunnah . You go by what a handful of companions did and the system they ran.

Mythbuster1

Re: Yet Another devastating blow to imamah
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2020, 08:09:45 AM »
"I believe infact I know I haven’t got anything wrong it’s more to do with your explanations and tafseers of verses where you have to add in the concept of divine Imamate, honestly it’s as simple as that"

I don't add or subtract anything. Quran is divine itself. Every single word is divine. Allah is divine who's words are the verses. The Holy scriptures are divine. And the ones they were revealed on were divine. For you divinity ends with certain Companions taking matters into their own hands. For us divinity was from the very beginning till the very end. But just as previous nations disregarded and took matters into their own hands and then certain people tried to justify it over the years to come, Muhammad's s.a.w Ummah went into the same direction after his death. Infact during it by rejecting what he had to offer by asking for pen and paper.

"You can post the whole Quran if you like but like I keep saying as well as billions of Muslims that there is no divine Imamate concept or idea in the Quran"

This is the sound of an arrogant ignorant or ignorant arrogant, which ever way it suits you. The concept of divine Imamate is absolutely and definitely in the Qur'an. You're too blind to see it or are playing blind just to save the concept of Saqifa and to save Caliphate otherwise it's ripped to shredds. Believe me I understand, to save a handful of companions and their merry men or cheer leaders and what they did and got up to is your prime objective.

"vague verses" Astaghfirullah this is an insult to the Qur'an and Allah "vague verses" La haula wala kuwat. I'm shocked at your thinking. You've been low before but I've never seen you go this low.

"I asked a question and basically you cannot answer with clear proofs or evidences.........instead it’s my fault because I don’t wanna hear what I want to hear and am not interested in the solution. Yeah right"

Everything you've asked I've answered. Tell me what I haven't.

"“Imamate is higher than prophethood but not necessarily.”

So Imamate is higher than prophethood but it’s not required???"

The first thing is point out where I said this. The second thing is ask for an explanation rather than asking then answering yourself on my behalf then passing judgement. That's all you seem to do.

We go by Allah and his Prophet s.a.w by Qur'an and Sunnah . You go by what a handful of companions did and the system they ran.

You don’t add or subtract anything??

Well Kid do show is the CLEAR verse of divine imams and we can all move on, but instead you are adding an alien idea that has no root in the Quran.
You even said you go by your own thoughts and ideas, so you even admit to adding your own thoughts and ideas on the verses.lol.

Oh it’s all back to saqifa and we are all about saqifa and nothing else the usurpers blah blah blah, the fact of the matter is Allah swt and prophet pbuh never mentioned the idea or concept of divine imams, they was that divine they were over powered by usurpers and never ruled and the last one is hiding for 1400 years scared even though he is a DIVINE GODLY CHOSEN IMAM TO LEAD! To believe such nonsense here you are adding in your own thoughts and ideas on particular verses just to carry on the flame of nonsense.

You still haven’t provided any clear verses or any clear hadith of prophet pbuh on divine Imamate rule, instead like you said it’s your thoughts and ideas.

You did say it kid just scroll up and look.

Let’s rectify your last statement you follow ibn Saba who came up with this divine idea nonsense Quran and sunnah have nothing to do with this idea or your assumptions, saqifa has made a big hole in your brain it’s mentally affecting you.

😂

Soccer

Re: Yet Another devastating blow to imamah
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2020, 02:51:58 AM »
For a long time I've been saying these hadiths in alkafi are wrong.  All Anbiya and Rusul are Imams. Tabatabai memorized Quran when he was 6. So his brain reflected a lot of right things, but a lot of things, he was wrong in.  His choice of which hadiths to support and which not to, is fallible opinion. He conjectured a lot in his Quran by Quran, but he didn't mean to.

The reality is all Anbiya and Rusool were at a point Imams who guide by God's command no exception.  Even Mariam was an Imam who guided by God's command (in that sense of the word) and together with Jesus was a proof.

The type talked about in Suratal Anbiya, even those without a revelation or message from God, Mariam has that and so did Fatima.

Mariam, Sarah, and Fatima all had authority to be obeyed. And were leaders who can light the way in spiritual kingdom as well.

The only thing is - the verse in Suratal Bani-Israel refers to a leadership is comprehensive and not limited to the inspiration of good deeds, salah, zakat, spiritually lighting the way and spiritually powering and helping believers. It includes there political authority to be turned to.

Sarah, Fatima, Mariam other of Isa, and Mariam sister of Harun and Musa, are all instances of being Leaders who guide by God's Command however just are not suppose to be returned to for the political affairs, because they are not meant to lead in battle and govern in this sense for example.





"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

 

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