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Is reputation reliable?

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Soccer

Is reputation reliable?
« on: August 22, 2020, 08:14:30 PM »
I can quote so many verses about this topic, but I will be brief, it's not. If I quote all the verses about this, the points I bring will have so many verses, but rather I will summarize what people who read Quran should recall and be familiar with.

1)Believers were always seen low, vile, per their opponents and Quran says the people of hell will be amazed that there was a group of people they use to count as the most evil and vile, but not one of them in the hell.

2)People know for "righteousness" without proof from God in form of signs and scripture from him designating them specifically as that, for the most part, are the opposite and clothing themselves with garbs of purity and righteousness above others, when they are not even believers.

3) Clergy of all religions known as highly more pious, pure or righteous then others, there are so many verses, about how their reputation was based on falsehood from Iblis and the sorcery gives them the illusion of it in both their eyes and the eyes of the people.

4) The only people who are attributed purity by God and have authority to speak about guidance with firm authority, is those who God manifests their purity per scriptures and proves them, and who have proof of their authority from God without doubt.

5) Who truly fears God is not known through reputation, claiming one fears God, outward show and marks, all this doesn't prove it.

6) God always divided believers from disbelievers, with the word of light from him in both form of scripture and in humans who interpret the scripture and leads humans back to God and calls them back to God.

7) The sorcery itself makes people belittle Prophets as liars, deceivers, greedy people out for their own reward, let alone, believers, and so in a world ruled by dark magic from Iblis,  one cannot rely on who is "known" for knowledge, piousness, or purity.  One has to seek proof from God.

8) God emphasizes so much places, faith is hidden and needs to be tested,  and even when one is sure and certain, and don't doubt after, if they sin and unclean fire takes over their souls, they can turn on their backs... and so even if a person is a believer and you know he is, this is different then guarantee from reverting to disbelief and this is true vice versa, lost souls and rebellious souls still have a chance to repent and thank God and turn to the right path. The nature of most humans is they are volatile. IT's the chosen ones who God knows for sure if they slip, they will repent and turn back, and will remain on the straight path and not leave it no matter what slip they might slip by.

Believers are volatile, and Suratal Auli-Imran shows even the original Badr fighters, were volatile and can turn on their backs after, let alone other believers.

9) Real trials come at moments we don't expect and make us and break us, like Iblis when ordered to prostrate to Adam. Worshipping God for eons before, he didn't expect himself to leave the path, disbelieve in God and rebel against the order of the heavens and the earth, but here is and here we are.


10) The Quran talks about disbelievers having followed their leaders and their great ones, their great ones were not great, only their eyes, this means, reputation in people's eyes is not reliable.


« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 08:15:55 PM by Soccer »
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

muslim720

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2020, 11:09:31 PM »
A perfect example of why the explanation of the Qur'an should not be tasked to a nobody.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Soccer

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2020, 12:15:09 AM »
A perfect example of why the explanation of the Qur'an should not be tasked to a nobody.

What did I say that is wrong here?
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

muslim720

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2020, 05:01:25 PM »
What did I say that is wrong here?

Well, simple, you have said nothing with any value whatsoever.

Just because you have access to the translation of the Qur'an and an internet connection does not mean that you should broadcast all the preposterous things that run across your mind.  This is true for everyone, btw!
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Soccer

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2020, 06:16:55 PM »
It's of value. Ilmel Rijaal and the whole basis of Sunnism and Shiism today, trusts reputation as reliable. I've shown by Quran, it is not.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

muslim720

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2020, 07:47:16 PM »
It's of value. Ilmel Rijaal and the whole basis of Sunnism and Shiism today, trusts reputation as reliable. I've shown by Quran, it is not.

So the entire point of your post was to show that ilm-ul-rijaal is based on reputation and since reputation does not confer reliability that both Sunni and Shi'i ilm-ul-rijaal are flawed.  You did not make your objective clear in your opening post but no problem.

I have a question for you.  Like me, you must have read the Qur'an in its English translation but if you were to read it in Arabic, how can you trust the vowel points?  After all, the vowels - the rules of recitation - are based on isnad (chain) and that chain entails ilm-ul-rijaal (those who were experts or imams in recitation).  So essentially, you're reading a text which arrived to you via a chain that was verified by ilm-ul-rijaal and you're using the very same text to criticize those who transmitted it to you and its methodology.  If ilm-ul-rijaal is to be doubted and not trusted, how can you accept the Qur'an?

Do you even think before you type?
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Soccer

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2020, 11:22:52 PM »
So the entire point of your post was to show that ilm-ul-rijaal is based on reputation and since reputation does not confer reliability that both Sunni and Shi'i ilm-ul-rijaal are flawed.  You did not make your objective clear in your opening post but no problem.

I have a question for you.  Like me, you must have read the Qur'an in its English translation but if you were to read it in Arabic, how can you trust the vowel points?  After all, the vowels - the rules of recitation - are based on isnad (chain) and that chain entails ilm-ul-rijaal (those who were experts or imams in recitation).  So essentially, you're reading a text which arrived to you via a chain that was verified by ilm-ul-rijaal and you're using the very same text to criticize those who transmitted it to you and its methodology.  If ilm-ul-rijaal is to be doubted and not trusted, how can you accept the Qur'an?

Do you even think before you type?

The Quran has the most majestic form and guidance.   The different vowels or even different forms of letters (because it's not only vowels that differ) - they all there, and there is a way to know which is true.  However, if you rely on isnaad, than their is contradictions in meaning for example in 3:7 the stop place changes meaning.  So they can't all be right.

But how to know which is right, is always possible through reflecting on Quran just as you can know the true meaning even if multiple meanings through reflecting on the different possibilities and which one is best suited given context, flow, and with respect to the whole Quran and reason.

"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

glorfindel

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2020, 01:05:43 AM »
As brother muslim720 has said without the isnad, you wouldn't know how to pronounce the words let alone know what the meaning is, for example in Surah Al-Baqarah the first words are الم, in Surah Al-Fil the first word is الم, how would you know one is pronounced one way or the other if you didn't have someone tell you?

As for Surah 3:9, what difference is made depending on where the stop is? How do you know which one is correct?

In the oldest manuscripts there are no diacritics (no tashkil, no harakat, no ijam) you wouldn't be able to distinguish one letter from another let alone the words - I have attached an example - please let us know what is the right meaning, ...given context, flow and respect to the whole Quran and reason
« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 01:11:22 AM by glorfindel »

Soccer

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2020, 01:16:32 AM »
The Qariats is part of what is passed on to us. None of them are full proof reliable in themselves, for example, where it stops (the Hamza) in 3:7 changes meaning of the verse, so it needs to be investigated.

There is no difference in this regard with respect to meaning of the Quran with respect to a Qariat, so it's the same with Qariats with respect to each other.

"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

Soccer

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2020, 01:18:31 AM »
The Qariats is part of what is passed on to us. None of them are full proof reliable in themselves, for example, where it stops (the Hamza) in 3:7 changes meaning of the verse, so it needs to be investigated.

There is no difference in this regard with respect to meaning of the Quran with respect to a Qariat, so it's the same with Qariats with respect to each other.

To add to this, it's not only Qariats that differ, even the huruf (letters themselves) differ in different chains passed on to us.

This doesn't mean Quran is not preserved.   It just requires a bit more effort to get to the truth then simply blindly follow so called Authorities pertaining to the Quran or Sunnah.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

glorfindel

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2020, 01:53:21 AM »
Rather than your meaningless word salad, would you like to hazard a guess at that the text says that is attached? Since you don't blindly follow any authorities you should have no problem reciting the text for us.

As for the Qira'at - they are the Quran! How else would someone know where to put the Nuqat, Tashkil and Harakat?

As for 3:7 which hamza are you talking about?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 02:02:31 AM by glorfindel »

Soccer

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2020, 03:32:55 AM »
Communicate more clearly, because I feel like I already addressed your points. As in, elaborate your points.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

muslim720

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2020, 04:12:11 PM »
The Quran has the most majestic form and guidance.   The different vowels or even different forms of letters (because it's not only vowels that differ) - they all there, and there is a way to know which is true.  However, if you rely on isnaad, than their is contradictions in meaning for example in 3:7 the stop place changes meaning.  So they can't all be right.

But how to know which is right, is always possible through reflecting on Quran just as you can know the true meaning even if multiple meanings through reflecting on the different possibilities and which one is best suited given context, flow, and with respect to the whole Quran and reason.

Stop perceiving yourself as a prophet who knows and sees things that others don't!  You know which is right, as in, how to recite the Qur'an, by reflecting on it?  Idiot, how do you - as someone else raised the point - recite "alif laam meem"?  Do you recite the individual letters, as we normally do, or alm, ilm or ulm?  No, you recite it as "alif laam meem"!  Is it because someone reflected on it?  No!  Because someone transmitted it to us.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

glorfindel

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2020, 05:29:39 PM »
Communicate more clearly, because I feel like I already addressed your points. As in, elaborate your points.

1.  The Rasm I attached has many possible pronunciations, I would like you to let me know how to pronounce the words correctly; as without a teacher/transmitter who either indicates how to pronounce and what the rhythm of the text is or put the diacritics in there themselves - normal people wouldn't know how to pronounce it; the diacritics in the text are used to fix the text with one Qira'at.

Please show us how to pronounce the words of the Rasm I posted - since you think it is unnecessary to have diacritics to comprehend the text.

2. in Surah 3:7 you stated that the placement of the Hamza changes the meaning of the verses - which hamza are you talking about?  What is the correct meaning and which of the Qira'at does it conform with; I have checked through, Hafs/Warsh/Douri/Qaloon and they all look the same.  If you disagree with the placement of the Hamza, on whose authority are you doing that?  And if you disagree with the one little hamza, why do you agree with all the other niqud, harakat etc, the people who put that hamza there are the same people who put everything else there - so you should remove all of them and produce a Qira'at of you own, that accords to the rules of Grammar, accords to the Rasm Uthmani, and has a chain of authority that goes back to the prophet (as) - Let's start with text I originally attached and then we can move on to all the errant hamza's of the world and anything else you want.

muslim720

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2020, 05:38:06 PM »
It's of value. Ilmel Rijaal and the whole basis of Sunnism and Shiism today, trusts reputation as reliable. I've shown by Quran, it is not.

By the way, if reputation is unreliable, well, there goes Shiaism with it!  After all, when Shias make a case for Imams (ra), they make it on reputation.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Soccer

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2020, 06:55:09 PM »
By the way, if reputation is unreliable, well, there goes Shiaism with it!  After all, when Shias make a case for Imams (ra), they make it on reputation.

They shouldn't make it on reputation, but rather, who is to pure in eyes of people per Quran, is by God making them pure in their eyes and proving their case.  In fact, there is three verses purely about this, that reputation of purity is not for the people to do, and purity in context not of infallibility or the level of the chosen ones, but just a high righteousness by which people can rely on,  is not for the people but only for God.

Authority is never proven by people per Quran, but by God, and if you can't ascend means to the sky or cannot prove your case by a book from God or cannot bring miracles than you have no proof of authority at all. 

It is for God to attribute purity to who he pleases, not for the people, and chooses who he wishes as authority, not for the people. In fact, there is more verses condemning polytheists for choosing without knowledge their gods and ascribing God partners without proof, then there are verses showing the impossibility of it and condemning it based on the impossibility.

There are more verses about the requirement of being sure who you give clear authority and place of intercession with knowledge and proof, then they are condemned for not realizing Tawheed and impossibility of other gods with God.

"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

muslim720

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2020, 05:48:25 PM »
They shouldn't make it on reputation, but rather, who is to pure in eyes of people per Quran, is by God making them pure in their eyes and proving their case.

WHAT. THE. HECK.

They should not be followed based on reputation but based on the fact that they were purified by Allah (swt)?  Well purification by Allah (swt) is a fadhila which bolsters one's reputation.  For example, the virtue (or at least one of the virtues) bestowed upon Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain - peace be upon them both - is that they are the Leaders of the Youth of Paradise.  That is their reputation.  And we know about their fadhaail because it was transmitted by reputable people.

You know what, you should make an appointment with Dr. Jordan Peterson!
« Last Edit: August 28, 2020, 05:49:35 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Soccer

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2020, 11:57:26 PM »
God attributing purity is proven through other means than reputation.  Their reputation as pure is due to God proving it through other then means of reputation.
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

glorfindel

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2020, 02:04:45 AM »
God attributing purity is proven through other means than reputation.  Their reputation as pure is due to God proving it through other then means of reputation.

What other means?

Soccer

Re: Is reputation reliable?
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2020, 02:52:28 AM »
"Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance

 

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