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Justifying Shia beliefs with Shia hadiths

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confusedshia

Justifying Shia beliefs with Shia hadiths
« on: April 03, 2018, 04:59:14 PM »
salam.

i would like the thoughts of all of you here. if sunnis see it as perfectly reasonable to establish beliefs based on sunni hadiths, then why can't a shia establish beliefs based on shia hadiths? for example, the belief in twelve infallible imams. i'm convinced from the other thread i recently made that the concept cannot be proven through sunni hadiths as many shias have claimed. however, this doctrine is clearly reported in shia literature and hadiths. so what's the problem if someone uses a hadith from usul al kafi or other collection which is graded as sahih according to shia scholars?

muslim720

Re: Justifying Shia beliefs with Shia hadiths
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2018, 10:16:43 PM »
Wa alaykum as salaam wa rahmatullah,

Within the Ithna Ashari school, it is perfectly alright to derive beliefs from Shia hadiths; in fact, that is what Shias do.  However, Shi'i hadiths are not hujjah upon us just like ours isn't hujjah upon you.  Regarding Imamah, for the reason that it is considered an usool-e-deen, it must be proven first through the Qur'an.  And as we continue to see, over a thousand years having passed by, there is nothing unequivocally stated in the Qur'an regarding Imamah.  If one cites the example of Ibrahim (asws) being appointed an Imam, the correct understanding is in the verse itself.  It says that Ibrahim (asws), unlike other Prophets (asws), was appointed an Imam for all mankind, not just for his people.  We pray in Masjid Haram behind Maqam Ibrahim; we were taught by the Prophet (saw) to send salawaat on him and his Aal by mentioning Ibrahim (asws) and Aale Ibrahim (Salaatul Ibrahimiyyah), etc.  However, to counter the Shia point from a different angle, consider this verse: "O David!  We did indeed make thee a vicegerent (khaleefatan) on earth....." (Surah Sa'd verse 26)  Does that mean all Caliphs (ra), starting with Abu Bakr (ra), were above Prophets (asws), naudhubillah?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 10:20:13 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Hadrami

Re: Justifying Shia beliefs with Shia hadiths
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2018, 11:14:29 PM »
i dont think shia using shia hadith is an issue at all. The issue is just a matter of the most important thing that shia believes doesnt exist in quran. Like someone once said, give quran to nonmuslim who has never heard of Islam, he would be able to extract salat, fasting, zakat etc, but wont be able to find any belief about shia infallible imam which shia believe more inportant than any of those other beliefs. Most important ever but none to be found in the most important scripture.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Justifying Shia beliefs with Shia hadiths
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2018, 12:31:30 AM »
salam.

i would like the thoughts of all of you here. if sunnis see it as perfectly reasonable to establish beliefs based on sunni hadiths, then why can't a shia establish beliefs based on shia hadiths? for example, the belief in twelve infallible imams. i'm convinced from the other thread i recently made that the concept cannot be proven through sunni hadiths as many shias have claimed. however, this doctrine is clearly reported in shia literature and hadiths. so what's the problem if someone uses a hadith from usul al kafi or other collection which is graded as sahih according to shia scholars?

Brother the fact is that, Shias establish their beliefs based on their hadeeth, and likewise Sunnis establish on their own hadeeth. Now as per Sunni standards of Hadeeth science, Jarh wa Tadeel of narrators, the Shia hadeeths are unreliable. The Shias would give you the same reply about Sunni hadeeths.

So an independent researcher needs to make a comparative study about the details and differences  between the Hadeeth science of Shias and Sunnis. The effort each sect put, in  regards to gather the information about narrators from whom they took their deen, focusing on the defects in pattern of transmission etc. And if you do that, you would fairly reach the conclusion that Sunnis surpassed Shias in this field. So taking opinion of Shia Schlars regards Hadeeth sciences is much safer and logical.

But, obviously its not possible for every random individual to take up this task and complete it in a proper manner. So you need to look at things from a different perspective.  For example, as the brother pointed out, you need to find explicit evidences from Quran which support the fundamental of Shia creed(Imamah after Prophet). You'll realize that their isn't any clear evidence, what all that is brought is ambiguous.   Infact their are verses which go against Imamah , like 4:59.

Most importantly, the historical fact that there were so many different Shia sects in regards to believing in the number of Imams. You can read about them in Shia books like Firaq al Shia. Or on articles on twelvershia website. If the number of Imams were known then Shias wouldn't have differed so much, there wouldn't have been, seveners like waqifis, etc.

There wouldn't have been a need for attributing Bada to Allah in regards to Imamah after the death of sons of Imams.

Lastly, Shia scholar of Hadith Muhammad Baqir al-Behbudi writes in "Ma`rifat al-Hadith" pg.172:

على انك عرفت في بحث الشذوذ عن نظام الامامة ان الأحاديث المروية في النصوص على الأئمة جملة من خبر اللوح وغيره كلها مصنوعة في عهد الغيبة والحيرة وقبلها بقليل فلو كانت هذه النصوص المتوافرة موجوده عند الشيعة اللإمامية لما اختلفوا في معرفة الأئمة هذا الاختلاف الفاضح ولما وقعت الحيرة لأساطين المذهب واركان الحديث سنوات عديدة وكانوا في غنى ان يتسرعوا في تأليف الكتب في اثبات الغيبة وكشف الحيرة عن قلوب الامة بهذه الكثرة

[And you (reader) now know after the research on "al-Shudhudh `an Nizam al-Imamah" that the narrations about the general identity of the Imams such as the narration of the Tablet (1) and others, are all fabricated during the time of al-Ghaybah (2) and al-Hayrah (3) and some short time before it. For if these narrations were available with the Imami Shia, they would not have disagreed so openly and greatly about the identity of the Imams, nor would the biggest personalities and narrators of Hadith have faced much confusion for long years, nor would they have needed to quickly write books proving the Ghaybah to unveil the confusion from the hearts of the nation in such great numbers.] 

Footnotes:
(1) Narrations of the Tablet are those when Jabir (ra) walks in on Fatima (ra) and sees a tablet with the names of the Imams on it.
(2) al-Ghaybah is the period of occultation of the Shia 12th Imam when he was never seen nor heard from by anyone except four people and only for a couple of years, then followed by the greater occultation.
(3) al-Hayrah is the great confusion that struck the followers of the Imami branch of Tashayyu` when the news of their Imam stopped reaching them after the death of the fourth emissary and lots of them abandoned the Madhab.

GreatChineseFall

Re: Justifying Shia beliefs with Shia hadiths
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2018, 01:55:10 PM »
Another problem is taqiyya, if you have authentic hadiths that contradict each other, what are you supposed to do? Many will simply declare something as being the result of taqiyya and this leaves the door open to pick and choose what to accept.

glorfindel

Re: Justifying Shia beliefs with Shia hadiths
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2018, 02:03:45 PM »
salam.

i would like the thoughts of all of you here. if sunnis see it as perfectly reasonable to establish beliefs based on sunni hadiths, then why can't a shia establish beliefs based on shia hadiths? for example, the belief in twelve infallible imams. i'm convinced from the other thread i recently made that the concept cannot be proven through sunni hadiths as many shias have claimed. however, this doctrine is clearly reported in shia literature and hadiths. so what's the problem if someone uses a hadith from usul al kafi or other collection which is graded as sahih according to shia scholars?

Wa Salam,

It's good to see someone admit that the 12er belief cannot be extracted from the corpus of Sunni literature.  As you have stated it is expected and reasonable to say that the 12er beliefs can be extracted from the 12er literature - that's the point of them! 

However the revelation descended upon Muhammed (صلى الله عليه و سلم) not upon Ali (عليه السلام) or his descendants (عليهم السلام) therefore in the area of belief we have to be able to trace back our beliefs to the revelation of the Quran or the Sunnah of the prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم).  You are right that there are sayings of the Imams (عليهم السلام) in the Shia literature narrating that there are 12 Imams, or Musa ibn Ja'far (عليه السلام) is the Imam and not Isma'il ibn Jafar (عليه السلام) - this is all underpinned with assumption that the Imams (عليه السلام) who are narrating are infallible and in the place of the prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم) - this needs to be proven first, otherwise its's circular logic; i.e. Al-Baqir (عليه السلام) says the Imam's are infallible and he is an Imam therefore he is infallible - we need an external source going back to Quran or the prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم) which establishes that fact before we can look into the sayings of the Imams (عليهم السلام).

Also as the other members have pointed out the hadith sciences were established by the Sunnis - who were only detailing the life of one man, i.e. Muhammed (صلى الله عليه و سلم), with the Shia they are having to deal with the lives of 13 men - what did they do to establish the sciences for all these people (عليهم السلام)?

I hope this helps.

confusedshia

Re: Justifying Shia beliefs with Shia hadiths
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2018, 09:11:03 PM »
Wa Salam,

It's good to see someone admit that the 12er belief cannot be extracted from the corpus of Sunni literature.  As you have stated it is expected and reasonable to say that the 12er beliefs can be extracted from the 12er literature - that's the point of them! 

However the revelation descended upon Muhammed (صلى الله عليه و سلم) not upon Ali (عليه السلام) or his descendants (عليهم السلام) therefore in the area of belief we have to be able to trace back our beliefs to the revelation of the Quran or the Sunnah of the prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم).  You are right that there are sayings of the Imams (عليهم السلام) in the Shia literature narrating that there are 12 Imams, or Musa ibn Ja'far (عليه السلام) is the Imam and not Isma'il ibn Jafar (عليه السلام) - this is all underpinned with assumption that the Imams (عليه السلام) who are narrating are infallible and in the place of the prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم) - this needs to be proven first, otherwise its's circular logic; i.e. Al-Baqir (عليه السلام) says the Imam's are infallible and he is an Imam therefore he is infallible - we need an external source going back to Quran or the prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم) which establishes that fact before we can look into the sayings of the Imams (عليهم السلام).

Also as the other members have pointed out the hadith sciences were established by the Sunnis - who were only detailing the life of one man, i.e. Muhammed (صلى الله عليه و سلم), with the Shia they are having to deal with the lives of 13 men - what did they do to establish the sciences for all these people (عليهم السلام)?

I hope this helps.

your post makes a lot of sense. i suppose the question i must ask now is whether there are any hadiths within shia collections which are linked to the prophet that mention 12 imams? are all of the shia hadiths on this issue just linked to the imams themselves instead? if the latter is true, then i will admit this is very problematic.

iceman

Re: Justifying Shia beliefs with Shia hadiths
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2018, 11:09:41 PM »
A question that we need to ask ourselves is, we have first in line in authority/command being ALLAH. We have second in line in authority/command being MUHAMMAD (pbuh).

Do we have third in line in authority/command? A simple answer YES or NO. If NO then we're sorted, if YES then a whole new discussion kicks off that  WHO and WHY?

Lets leave Shia Imamah and the hellbent defence of justifying Saqifa out of it on this occasion and see how we do and where we end up.

confusedshia

Re: Justifying Shia beliefs with Shia hadiths
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2018, 12:36:01 AM »
A question that we need to ask ourselves is, we have first in line in authority/command being ALLAH. We have second in line in authority/command being MUHAMMAD (pbuh).

Do we have third in line in authority/command? A simple answer YES or NO. If NO then we're sorted, if YES then a whole new discussion kicks off that  WHO and WHY?

Lets leave Shia Imamah and the hellbent defence of justifying Saqifa out of it on this occasion and see how we do and where we end up.

sounds like a long thread. would probably be better to discuss that afterwards. are there any narrations within our shia collections which mention there being 12 imams that actually have a chain going back to the prophet (saws)?

Hani

Re: Justifying Shia beliefs with Shia hadiths
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2018, 04:11:43 AM »
salam.

i would like the thoughts of all of you here. if sunnis see it as perfectly reasonable to establish beliefs based on sunni hadiths, then why can't a shia establish beliefs based on shia hadiths? for example, the belief in twelve infallible imams. i'm convinced from the other thread i recently made that the concept cannot be proven through sunni hadiths as many shias have claimed. however, this doctrine is clearly reported in shia literature and hadiths. so what's the problem if someone uses a hadith from usul al kafi or other collection which is graded as sahih according to shia scholars?

Because Sunni books are the books relied upon by the entire nation since they were authored by Ahlul-Hadith, they are widespread since the beginning and are numerous, corroborated and transmitted through well documented chains.

Twelver Shia sect's books are books transmitted secretly, never widespread or recognized by mainstream Muslims, unknown authors, they are small in number, not corroborated, not transmitted through reliable chains or narrators and most importantly self contradicting; So Zyadi Shia Hadith conflict with Isma`ili Shia that conflict with Twelver Shia that conflict with Nusayri Shia that conflict with numerous Imami and non-Imami Shia.

So YES, the correct Islamic belief MUST be established from the books of Ahlul-Sunnah and Ahlul-Hadith, these have always been the books containing the Sunnah of Muhammad (saw) as recognized by all Muslims from Morocco to East Turkestan.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

 

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