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Making the case the wage verses about the family of Mohammad.

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Is the impression it gives clear or unclear?

Sunnis want people to believe that the verse 42:23 is unclear and can mean many things. This is there strategy whenever it comes to a verse that manifests the position of the Imams. The first argument I would make is that since this is the wage of the message, whatever God said, he said it in a clear enough manner, that the meaning implied is known and is not unclear.  Sunnis admit it can mean family of Mohammad as that is one of the possibilities they give in the possible meanings in their commentaries of Quran. However they argue that it can mean other things like the kinship between Quraysh and Prophet. A newer outlook because people are aware of the various other wage verses is that it can also mean closeness to God.  However I argue that there is only one meaning that is the clear impression it gives. And the first impression is the near relatives of Mohammad.  Sunnis want to make it as if there is no first clear impression and that various meanings are on the table. I argue for something this important, for the wage of the message, God would definitely give one meaning that is manifest and clear, while the others would be people being obtuse. Something this important in Quran, which being grateful to the message is summarized in, would not be something ambiguous.  

Can it mean Qurayshi kinship?


Love of Qurayshi kinship is unrelated to the message of Islam and showing gratitude for it.  Moreover other verses show the wage is in fact a reminder to the worlds and is taking a path to God. Therefore it doesn't make sense it refers to Qurayshi kinship. The interpretation the Prophet didn't ask a wage also goes against the norms of language, but if it the exception refers to all that he asks,  then again, he doesn't simply ask Quraysh to love kinship between him and them, he is asking a lot more. That and the obvious impression is that the exception is towards the wage being asked, that he asks no wage, but that.

Can it mean closeness to God?

It goes against the norm of language to assume it means "closeness". Closeness can mean a lot of things, for example, it can refer to family closeness, it can refer to closeness between believers, it can refer to many things, and hence it would be ambiguous while we need to know what the wage is commanding.  People can say since the other verses say it means taking a path to God, it means obviously love of closeness to God.  We have to investigate is love of closeness to God the path towards God? 

If it said "love of God", I would understand that being a path to God. Since love of God includes loving humans and the light within them, it includes taking care of yourself for his sake, and fearing the hell fire for his sake, and loving the Prophet for God's sake.

But closeness to God is not the same as saying love of God. It's love of being close to God, which is love a the reward of God and being near to him.  This doesn't include loving God for his sake, but would make you love God for the sake of attaining nearness to him.   You wouldn't love people for the sake of the light of God within them, you would love them for the sake of attaining nearness to God. This is problematic for many reasons. 

Moreover, people can want to attain nearness of God, but if they are not sincere to his obedience, respect his greatness, and love submitting to him, this has many problems.

That is why people ought to strive for God's sake, and not simply out of love of attaining nearness to him, which is important of course.  Of course those who want the next world and his nearness,  they ought to realize that path that God wants people to walk upon, and God will guide them to that path. Wanting nearness of God however is not the path. 

Is love of the family of Mohammad a full description of the path to God?


Since the core of the chosen ones of God is love of God and love for his sake, loving them automatically makes one love God.  As their path includes unifying God and testifying to his absolute glory and uniqueness, we ought to love that path. Now when it comes to loving God, it can also be seen that whatever light of God we come to know of, they have as well. Whatever degree of knowledge of God it means they unite such glory and beauty in their innermost souls. The only difference is that we know God has it absolutely but we can never recognize that absolute light. Hence whatever finite degree of knowledge of God in the sense of witnessing beauty, praise, and glory, then that unites in the holy souls of Ali and Fatima and the Imams from their offspring.  Aside from that, loving them means loving that very light connected to God, and if we love that light, we love creation in so far as they as blessed by those blessings found in Ahlulbayt and we distance ourselves from the darkness and evil in so far as it's opposite to that light. If we love Ahlulbayt with sincerity, they become the measurement by which we respect and love others. Of course, we have to honor that very light rights when it appears in form of father, or a son, or sister or mother or daughter or aunt or uncle, etc, it takes on different forms and demands different relationship.  Loving the path of Taqwa and vision of God's beauty, is the essence of loving Ahlulbayt (as), and this includes loving others for the sake of God. At the same time, when it comes to the path of submission to God, it makes one disbelieve in the Taghut since they are anti-chosen ones' authority. It makes one love that submission to God through his chosen ones. It makes one appreciate God's guidance with his chosen ones. 

This is because the light of Ahlulbayt [as] is from God.   This is because Ahlulbayt [as] unite all light in creation. This because they are that very light of Mohammad [pbuh&hf]. This is because they unite all virtues of the Prophets [as] and loving them includes loving the Prophets [as]. This is because all good is found in them. This is because whatever good we can do,  that goodness, the good act, is found in them and recognizing their position would make us love true goodness, true virtue, the true path. 

This because all creation blessings is united in their holy souls and loving them means to love and appreciate all blessed goodness and beauty in creation. 

This also because they unite all pathways towards God, and are the straight path.



God's Name and his path, always has a designation.

Aside from that, the fact is, God's Name and religion always has a designation, a door to enter by and submit through.  

For example, Jesus was the door people had to enter by. 

There is always a designation. If the family of Mohammad was not that designation, then it would be only the Prophet. The Prophet would be that designated path. However, the fact is, the submission to God and submission to the Prophet of God, has been designated to them.

 Therefore to submit to God and submit to the Prophet's call, once has to follow them and love them. Loving them means one is attached to their light and follows them inwardly and not just outwardly. It means to love the inward way and not simply their outer actions. 

In fact it is clear when we think about how much Quran emphasized on entering the door that God has told people to enter by, whether it was Adam, or Noah or Abraham or the family of Abraham, or the Prophets of Bani-Israel, we have to enter the door in a spirit of humbleness and submission to God. 

We acknowledge the position his chosen friends have and submit through them to God. This wisdom is emphasized through out the Quran.  

Everyone can claim to love closeness to God


The wage verses would be ambiguous in describing the path to God. Everyone can claim to love closeness to God and it does nothing to separate misguidance from guidance. Given how much wage verses are emphasized, this goes against the eloquence of Quran.  Of course Quran does command towards goodness in general, but to say something to the effect "be good" without designating that path of being good and distinguishing the path of error and evil from that of good and faith, would go against the eloquence expected of God. He constantly reminds of the wage in all together 9 verses directly, and there is other verses indirectly mentioning other Prophets didn't ask a wage. Which will bring the next point.

Why didn't the other Prophets ask a wage?

If the path was always love of closeness to God, then why didn't all Prophets ask a wage? Think about it. Why didn't they all say I ask you nothing in return of this message except the love of closeness to God?  The reason being was the Prophets themselves were that path to God during that time. After them, Prophets would succeed them in which their message also was asking them to follow the Prophets. It would go against eloquence to say "I ask you nothing in return except to follow me" or "to love me". That is against all eloquence. It would make them appear to be power hungry in front of their people. The same is true of saying "but to follow the Prophets" when it's understood they are one of them. 

However, the Quran in it's eloquent manifestation, showed, that, is clarifying "the wage is for ourselves", while that is not needed if it was simply love of closeness to God. It emphasizes the wage is for our benefit and that in fact is taking a path to God. 

It also introduces the concept of chosen families, which then, would make us understand,  his true near relatives and near kin, is not normal people. The meaning of family takes on a higher metaphorical meaning, and is emphasized to be family in a sense others are not included in that definition.

If the Prophet said 'but to follow me' it would give the impression, that Mohammad didn't really want anything in return but to be followed. This can be interpreted both in positive but given the context of the wage of all Prophets, it would go against the reason why none of them asked, and the reason is obvious, is that it can give impression to people of bad mindset, that the Prophet is power hungry and wants to be followed in that sense. 

It seems a similar thing can be assumed about his family, that he cares about his near relatives, that he wants nothing in return but to love them, but we see clarification in Quran that in fact it is a reminder to the worlds, and is a path towards God, and is being asked for our sake, while his reward is with God the lord of the worlds and the concept of chosen families in Quran. 

The latter statement shows this being asked by Prophet on behalf of God as well, that to appreciate the message of God, the gift of the Quran and Sunnah, we ought to love the family of Mohammad.

That without their love, we would not appreciate the message of God nor show gratefulness to God for sending us Mohammad.

Explanation by the Prophet

Clarification by the Prophet would be essential regarding this verse, and the only clarification attributed to the Prophet about it, is about it being about the family of Mohammad. Not one hadith exists stating it's about closeness to God for example.  There is a hadith that Ibn Abbas says it's Qurayshi kinship but aside that being refuted, it wasn't an explanation attributed to the Prophet. And it was arguing with someone who expressed it being the family of Mohammad and telling him he was being hasty. Even in that hadith, we see that, the first impression and obvious one is the family of Mohammad.  The closeness to God was not even mentioned as a possibility in that hadith because how far off in language it is to assume that.  "love of the kinship" is also far off but who ever fabricated that to Ibn Abbas, that is the best he can think of.  However as we would expect an explanation by those who want to follow the truth regarding the Quran and seek an explanation from it from the Prophet, it is sufficient to point out the only ahadith attributed to the Prophet about it show that it means his family.

Context of wage verses.

The first time you will come across a wage verse in Quran reading it chronologically would be in Surah 6. And it's after emphasizing on the Prophets, and they were chosen from one another's offspring and brothers, and that after it emphasizes on Mohammad [pbuh&hf] to follow their guidance and take guidance from their guidance and be guided by their example, it tells us that wage is but a reminder to the nations.

The impression with "al-Qurba" surely then is that they are similarly to be taken guidance from by people, that in them unites the guidance of the Prophets including that last one. 

We see also a reminder in Suratal Yusuf which has a theme of chosen ones and inheritance of chosen family members from one another in guiding their community. It has also other relationship with themes in that Surah. 

The point is if we study the context of all these Surahs, they are best explained and point to the emphasis being that the family of Mohammad is a family of chosen people to be taken as examples and guides to the nations. 

That love of them is a reminder and call to the straight path. That people are not oblivious or need in being told to love closeness of God but rather people always show unwillingness to enter the door God has opened for them.

The flow of the Surah, the place of it in the Surah, and the verses surrounding it, all manifests the theme of the wage being love of the family of Mohammad. That much of the Quran is saying, these Surahs intertwine with one another and point to why God has told our Prophet to ask this wage, that no doubt, all eloquence lies in it's apparent meaning and that verse 42:23 would not be ambiguous. It lies that these Surahs are explaining to humanity, this is what God has in fact revealed to Noahh, and Abraham and Moses and Jesus, and the Prophets, that he chooses for himself who he pleases and guides to himself who he turns to him frequently.   That this path of designation of door of submission is now to Ali. That his family and him are that the submission to the Quran.

That these exalted souls inherit that spirit that he inspired Mohammad by and continue to guide humanity after him. 

Study the context of these verses and you will see an entire theme is about this issue and it explains and manifests how Quran has an argument, has a message that is not circular, that is not simply saying "there was plenty of the Prophets in the past, so why not believe in the last one?", but that there is a design in God's way of guidance, in the world, a plan, a majestic plan he has, that can be reasoned through and seen in all holy books in their interior logic, despite how corrupted they are now (with exception of Quran).

That no doubt if you acknowledge the way of the past, you ought to acknowledge the perfection of God's religion and plan.  There is a theme in all this, and the emphasis on the wage of the message no doubt is about tying the past with the present and future.


Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hadrami

Re: Making the case the wage verses about the family of Mohammad.
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2016, 01:02:02 PM »
Have you taken your pill Link? Theres seems to be a missing link in your brain circuit to come up with such long BS essay.

Shia say we need imam to explain Islam right, then why on earth should people listen to self confessed mentally ill, non infallible person like you or any other non infallibles??

Optimus Prime

Re: Making the case the wage verses about the family of Mohammad.
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2016, 04:37:38 PM »
Have you taken your pill Link? Theres seems to be a missing link in your brain circuit to come up with such long BS essay.

Shia say we need imam to explain Islam right, then why on earth should people listen to self confessed mentally ill, non infallible person like you or any other non infallibles??

Brother Hadrami. We should reply with academic refutation not with disgruntledness otherwise we'll continue to have less Shias signing up.

Abu Jasim Al-Salafi

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Re: Making the case the wage verses about the family of Mohammad.
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2016, 06:48:56 PM »
What exactly do you want to prove? What's your point?
May Allah guide the Shi'a to the truth. Ameen.

Student of Comparative Religion - Refuter of allegations made against Islam by Christians and Atheists.

Hani

Re: Making the case the wage verses about the family of Mohammad.
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2016, 09:59:43 PM »
He says:

((Sunnis want people to believe that the verse 42:23 is unclear and can mean many things. This is there strategy whenever it comes to a verse that manifests the position of the Imams.))

I say, your strategy is to go to any verse that can handle more than one meaning and "link" it to your Imams. This is due to the absence of your Imams in Allah's book.

((the wage of the message))

There is no wage/reward, he (saw) said I do not ask you for a wage/reward.

This is repeated in other verses:

{And you do not ask of them for it any wage/reward. It is not except a reminder to the worlds.}

Or this one

{And I do not ask you for it any wage/reward. My wage/reward is only from the Lord of the worlds.}

Or this one

{Follow those who do not ask of you [any] wage/reward, and they are [rightly] guided.}

Do you want me to explain it to you in an easier way? He basically told them I do not ask you for a wage/reward, I only ask you to respect the ties of closeness between us.

((However they argue that it can mean other things like the kinship between Quraysh and Prophet))

We don't argue anything, this is the interpretation of `Abdullah ibn `Abbas, a member of the household and `Ali's trusted helper during his reign. I'm sure you know better though, just like you ignored all authentic narrations last time.

((However I argue that there is only one meaning that is the clear impression it gives. And the first impression is the near relatives of Mohammad.))

Near relatives in the language of Arabs encompasses all paternal and maternal relatives. So everybody is included in this verse from al-Zubayr to Safiyyah. And who do the Shia detest? That's right it's al-Zubayr, unless you find a special clause to exclude him.

((Love of Qurayshi kinship is unrelated to the message of Islam and showing gratitude for it.  Moreover other verses show the wage is in fact a reminder to the worlds and is taking a path to God. Therefore it doesn't make sense it refers to Qurayshi kinship. The interpretation the Prophet didn't ask a wage also goes against the norms of language, but if it the exception refers to all that he asks,  then again, he doesn't simply ask Quraysh to love kinship between him and them, he is asking a lot more. That and the obvious impression is that the exception is towards the wage being asked, that he asks no wage, but that.))

Unconvincing, I believe you're wrong and it does in fact refer to the near relationship he acquired in their midst so that they may at least not harm him.

Therefore, end of debate. Your issue is not that your interpretations are ridiculously outrageous, your issue is that they're unconvincing but you insist they're the only valid explanations and you condemn your opponents to the fire. A pathetic condition.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Link

Re: Making the case the wage verses about the family of Mohammad.
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2016, 11:23:03 PM »
Surely he was asking Quraysh more then to only respect the ties of kinship between him and them. For example, he was asking them to believe in him being a Prophet, to come to Tawheed, to abandon their gods, to follow him, etc. Also, I know in Arabic, the ila refers to the clause "I do not ask you a wage except...." and then says what the wage is.

The verse in Suratal Saba can be translated to:

"Whatever wage I have asked you so it is for yourselves".

And the other verses can also been seen to say:

"I do not ask you a wage for it that it be but a reminder to the worlds"

The other verse is regarding other Prophets.

« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 11:37:54 PM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Link

Re: Making the case the wage verses about the family of Mohammad.
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2016, 11:27:10 PM »
Also another point is the wage refers to what they should do for accepting the message. That is if they accept Islam and appreciate the message. So the context of "all he asks..." although is irrational translation, would be in the context of saying all that he asks of them when coming to Islam because the wage is regarding what he asks if they would accept Islam. And surely that cannot be only love of Qurayshi Kinship between them and him.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Link

Re: Making the case the wage verses about the family of Mohammad.
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2016, 11:33:18 PM »
Also I am wondering what you think of the following verses in Suratal A'araaf:



لَهُمْ أَرْجُلٌ يَمْشُونَ بِهَا أَمْ لَهُمْ أَيْدٍ يَبْطِشُونَ بِهَا أَمْ لَهُمْ أَعْيُنٌ يُبْصِرُونَ بِهَا أَمْ لَهُمْ آذَانٌ يَسْمَعُونَ بِهَا قُلِ ادْعُوا شُرَكَاءَكُمْ

ثُمَّ كِيدُونِ فَلَا تُنظِرُونِ   

إِنَّ وَلِيِّيَ اللَّهُ الَّذِي نَزَّلَ الْكِتَابَ وَهُوَ يَتَوَلَّى الصَّالِحِينَ
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Rationalist

Re: Making the case the wage verses about the family of Mohammad.
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2016, 11:57:31 PM »
Surely he was asking Quraysh more then to only respect the ties of kinship between him and them. For example, he was asking them to believe in him being a Prophet, to come to Tawheed, to abandon their gods, to follow him, etc.

And he wasn't asking them to believe in Imamate in addition?

Link

Re: Making the case the wage verses about the family of Mohammad.
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2016, 12:00:50 AM »
Here is the verses all together about the Prophet being to told to say thing regarding the wage of the message:


That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any wage for it except love in the near relatives (of mine); and whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Thankful. (42:23)


Say: whatever I have asked of you of a wage, so it is for yourselves, verily my  wage is with God and he is a witness upon all things.(34:47)

Say: No wage have I asked of you for it, except for who wants to take towards his Lord a path.(25:57)

These are they who God has guided therefore follow their guidance. Say: I do not ask you a wage for it that it be but a reminder/remembrance to the worlds/nations/peoples.(6:90)

 And you do not ask them a wage for it that is but a remembrance/reminder to the worlds/nations/peoples. (12:104)

Or do you ask them a wage? Then surely the wage of your Lord is better, and he is the best of those who provide sustenance. And surely you call them to a straight path. (23:72-73)

Say: I do not ask you for it any wage - and I am not of those who affect -
That it be but a reminder/remembrance to the worlds/nations/peoples.
And ye shall certainly the truth of it after a time.
(38:86-88)

Or do you ask them a wage so that they are over overburdened by a debt?(52:40, 68:46)
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Link

Re: Making the case the wage verses about the family of Mohammad.
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2016, 12:10:39 AM »
Surely he was asking Quraysh more then to only respect the ties of kinship between him and them. For example, he was asking them to believe in him being a Prophet, to come to Tawheed, to abandon their gods, to follow him, etc.

And he wasn't asking them to believe in Imamate in addition?

The spirit of submission to God should not be done out of Qurayshi kinship between him and them. I'm sorry that doesn't make sense.

Imammate is about Guidance and Leadership of his Chosen ones on behalf of God. It always has a designation. You believe that designation ended with Mohammad but we believe it continued with his successors/family.

For example, other Prophets emphasized to follow them as that would be the straight path of Worshiping God. Prophets are sent so the light of God is followed. The light is manifested always by examples.

That is the first context of the wage verses when coming across Quran. In Surah 6 it talks about to follow the guidance of the Prophets to Mohammad [pbuh&hf]. So the best of creation takes from the example of others, then it can be concluded there is no straighter path then to follow the example of others.

However the Quran then emphasizes: say: I ask you no wage for it that it be but a reminder to the worlds.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Rationalist

Re: Making the case the wage verses about the family of Mohammad.
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2016, 12:44:05 AM »

The spirit of submission to God should not be done out of Qurayshi kinship between him and them. I'm sorry that doesn't make sense.
Neither does the concept of a Dozen Imams, or reaching Imamate at childhood and answering 33,000 questions in one sitting, or the disappearance of the 12th Imam.

Quote
Imammate is about Guidance and Leadership of his Chosen ones on behalf of God. It always has a designation. You believe that designation ended with Mohammad but we believe it continued with his successors/family.
When did Imamate became a pillar? In the Meccan period or the Madinian stage? The reason I am asking is because Imam Jafar in one ahadith in al Kafi supports the 'Bakri' pillars of Islam.
On top of that the concept of Imamate you believe in is very similar to the Sikh concept of Gurus.
The Sikhs cannot give a historical reference of what Guru is before Guru Nanak came, and you cannot give a reference to divinely appointed  Imamate before Imam Ali (as). The best you can do is use analogy. However, in your books Imam Jafar condemned the use of analogy.

Quote
For example, other Prophets emphasized to follow them as that would be the straight path of Worshiping God. Prophets are sent so the light of God is followed. The light is manifested always by examples.
Prophet's Light of God = Wahi
Imamate Light of God =?
Sikh Guru Light of God=?
Quote
That is the first context of the wage verses when coming across Quran. In Surah 6 it talks about to follow the guidance of the Prophets to Mohammad [pbuh&hf]. So the best of creation takes from the example of others, then it can be concluded there is no straighter path then to follow the example of others.

However the Quran then emphasizes: say: I ask you no wage for it that it be but a reminder to the worlds.


I wonder why your sect asks to pay 20% Khumms every year from your saving?

Hani

Re: Making the case the wage verses about the family of Mohammad.
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2016, 02:05:49 AM »
@Link,

The word "ila" in this context can also mean I do not ask you for a wage/reward but I only ask you to treat me according to our tie of closeness.

Otherwise someone might say to you that you're contradicting the other verses, such as:

{And you do not ask of them for it any wage/reward. It is not except a reminder to the worlds.}

Or this one

{And I do not ask you for it any wage/reward. My wage/reward is only from the Lord of the worlds.}

Or this one

{Follow those who do not ask of you [any] wage/reward, and they are [rightly] guided.}

Since according to you he is in fact asking for a wage (the love of his family). In truth, all verses above revolve around him not asking for a wage, but he is simply telling them that it is a remembrance, he should be at least treated based on the mutual love and respect the Arabs hold towards eachother due to kinship and that his reward is with Allah.

Asking for the love of the family is not a wage even if we take your definition, rather he is saying that he's offering guidance, he isn't asking for money, lands or authority in return. He believes that by doing so at least they should treat him based on their own principals with regards to kinship (A very important thing for Arabs).

Now let's take your interpretation, he walks up to them and says: I'm offering you divine guidance, in return I ask for a wage and that is for you to love my relatives.

That doesn't make much sense to me nor would it make sense to any non-believer back then as my business is not with his family it's with him and what he's preaching.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Link

Re: Making the case the wage verses about the family of Mohammad.
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2016, 02:37:37 AM »
The word "ila" in this context can also mean I do not ask you for a wage/reward but I only ask you to treat me according to our tie of closeness.

I don't think it can. But I'm saying for sake of argument, say it can, he definitely is asking more then that. He is calling them to Islam etc.




Quote
Otherwise someone might say to you that you're contradicting the other verses, such as:

{And you do not ask of them for it any wage/reward. It is not except a reminder to the worlds.}

As said before that can be translated as "And you not ask them for it a wage that it be only a reminder to the worlds."

Quote
Or this one

{And I do not ask you for it any wage/reward. My wage/reward is only from the Lord of the worlds.}


Can I get the quote, I believe this is quoting another Prophet.


Quote
{Follow those who do not ask of you [any] wage/reward, and they are [rightly] guided.}

This can be interpreted as about Messengers all together except Mohammad.
Quote
Since according to you he is in fact asking for a wage (the love of his family). In truth, all verses above revolve around him not asking for a wage, but he is simply telling them that it is a remembrance, he should be at least treated based on the mutual love and respect the Arabs hold towards eachother due to kinship and that his reward is with Allah.

What did you think of the verses:


لَهُمْ أَرْجُلٌ يَمْشُونَ بِهَا أَمْ لَهُمْ أَيْدٍ يَبْطِشُونَ بِهَا أَمْ لَهُمْ أَعْيُنٌ يُبْصِرُونَ بِهَا أَمْ لَهُمْ آذَانٌ يَسْمَعُونَ بِهَا قُلِ ادْعُوا شُرَكَاءَكُمْ

ثُمَّ كِيدُونِ فَلَا تُنظِرُونِ   

إِنَّ وَلِيِّيَ اللَّهُ الَّذِي نَزَّلَ الْكِتَابَ وَهُوَ يَتَوَلَّى الصَّالِحِينَ


These verses are clear he is not asking them to treat him kindly due to kinship but rather to call upon their gods and plan against him and give him no respite. The verse after then states God is his protector.

Another thing it was stated, that since he is asking them nothing as a reward of the message from your point of view, then the subject is what he is asking them if they accept Islam. And Surely he is asking them a lot more in Islam then simply loving kinship between them and him.





Quote
Now let's take your interpretation, he walks up to them and says: I'm offering you divine guidance, in return I ask for a wage and that is for you to love my relatives.

That doesn't make much sense to me nor would it make sense to any non-believer back then as my business is not with his family it's with him and what he's preaching.

It doesn't make sense from the perspective they relatives in the normal sense of the word nor does it make sense if the love is just a normal type love we ought to have for one another. However if it has the special understanding I showed which the Quran elaborates on, that it is for example, a path towards God, that is for ourselves, that is due to them being a family of chosen ones, and the near relatives takes on a parable higher meaning from the word, then it makes sense.

It makes sense because the Prophet didn't just deliver the final message for it to be abandoned, but that God wants people to recognize the way to show appreciating to God's Message and his Messenger, is to love the Guides after him and recognize their position and to take a path to their Lord through them.

In other words, it turned this theme, that yes it's a wage, but it's not in the sense of land or money or what not.

The reason other Prophets didn't ask one was stated in the OP as well. Also remember a wage is asked in the sense "if you accept the message then no reward do I ask for it...." type meaning. Of course, people who disbelieve it will not believe they owe any reward for the message since they don't believe in it which is why it doesn't make sense for it to be about respecting the ties of kinship between him and them. Because the wage applies once you accept the message, so even if it's addressed at disbelievers, it would mean what he asks for after they accept the message. That would be the context.




« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 02:50:06 AM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hadrami

Re: Making the case the wage verses about the family of Mohammad.
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2016, 03:22:38 AM »

Brother Hadrami. We should reply with academic refutation not with disgruntledness otherwise we'll continue to have less Shias signing up.

If it was any other shia, yes i would. This guy's mental illness is not a made up story, because he told us that. When someone is mentally ill, the last thing he needs is debate. Will you take your friend who is mentally ill to debate or to doctor? Will you take advise about this thing from a mentally ill person? I wont.

Real life example, a testimony of a mentally ill person is not accepted in a court of law. You want to take mentally ill person who once left shitism and became atheist and now back to shitism seriously?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 03:30:23 AM by Hadrami »

Rationalist

Re: Making the case the wage verses about the family of Mohammad.
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2016, 04:04:32 AM »
Brothers lets avoid the ad hominem attacks.

Hadrami

Re: Making the case the wage verses about the family of Mohammad.
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2016, 04:30:38 AM »
Why try to convince him about anything when he himself said he is mentally ill & needs treatment? Link, get some treatment & not debate. I also said the same thing to waleed who once became sunni. Get treatment, not debate

Rationalist

Re: Making the case the wage verses about the family of Mohammad.
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2016, 07:49:29 AM »
That's the case with many of earlier 12er Shia. Due to the oppression and persecution they faced, they began to lose their rationality, and as result started making the Imams into romantic figures who have unrealistic attributes.

And who ends up converting into 12er Shia from Ahle Sunnah? Its all those people who have a lot of trouble in life. The solution for them is to go the majalis and cry about the imams and then do tabbarra.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 07:57:18 AM by Rationalist »

Hani

Re: Making the case the wage verses about the family of Mohammad.
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2016, 10:41:17 PM »
@Link,

((I don't think it can. But I'm saying for sake of argument, say it can, he definitely is asking more then that. He is calling them to Islam etc.))

It's a part of Arabian eloquence to omit some words and still retain the meaning, so it is as if he said: "I do not ask you for any wage, I ask nothing except for love of kinship." So in order to not fall into repetition Arabs can do this.

Otherwise, you will fall into contradiction in the other verses and thus you had to make an exception for Muhammad (saw) in one of them.

Then you quoted these verses:

{Do they have feet by which they walk? Or do they have hands by which they strike? Or do they have eyes by which they see? Or do they have ears by which they hear? Say, [O Muhammad], "Call your 'partners' and then conspire against me and give me no respite. Indeed, my protector is Allah, who has sent down the Book; and He is an ally to the righteous. And those you call upon besides Him are unable to help you, nor can they help themselves."}

This can be easily understood as an argument later on in his Da`wah, after they rejected his request and showed their desire to harm him, he took a different tone and challenged them to seek the help of their idols to unleash their powers against them. He isn't necessarily asking them to harm or beat him up, he simply chose an intelligent way of telling them their idols hold no harm or benefit, so they can conspire with them and scheme with them but nothing will come out of it as the idols are inanimate objects. He told them that at the end of the day, Allah's will shall be fulfilled, whether the easy way or the hard way is up to them and they will not be able to cause him any harm if Allah does not will it.

All in all, the message passed by stages, from calling them and asking them to respect the kinship up until the matter reached all out war at the end.

The rest of your interpretation is unconvincing, I CAN'T HELP YOU.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 10:50:13 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ibn Yahya

Re: Making the case the wage verses about the family of Mohammad.
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2016, 10:45:22 PM »
Are you saying that we have to give money to the close kin of the prophet to be Muslim? I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure they've been dead for 1400 years

 

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