TwelverShia.net Forum

Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Imamah-Ghaybah => Topic started by: Rationalist on January 21, 2019, 07:53:42 AM

Title: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Rationalist on January 21, 2019, 07:53:42 AM


Although we have disagreements with him, but this video was good.
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: iceman on January 22, 2019, 12:15:02 AM


Although we have disagreements with him, but this video was good.

He's out of breath before he even started. And then the wrong phone. Not a very good start. Anyways lets see what he has to say.
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Ridhwan on January 23, 2019, 07:12:26 AM
This is unrelated but without making a new post, I must mention that the thumbnail to the new video titled "Mut'ah Destroyed Me: Story of an Ex Shia" on TheSunniDefense channel is inappropriate as it contains a picture of a woman. And so does the video itself.
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Rationalist on January 23, 2019, 09:16:15 PM
He's out of breath before he even started. And then the wrong phone. Not a very good start. Anyways lets see what he has to say.

He says the narrations are influenced by Israeliyath.
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: iceman on February 16, 2019, 01:53:31 AM
This is unrelated but without making a new post, I must mention that the thumbnail to the new video titled "Mut'ah Destroyed Me: Story of an Ex Shia" on TheSunniDefense channel is inappropriate as it contains a picture of a woman. And so does the video itself.

They would go to any length just to undermine Shias. They've lost all dignity and shame.
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on February 16, 2019, 08:44:39 PM
They would go to any length just to undermine Shias. They've lost all dignity and shame.
And you will never have any shame in making retarded and foolish comments
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: iceman on February 18, 2019, 01:04:05 AM
And you will never have any shame in making retarded and foolish comments

How much shame do you or the others have and shown. You worry about your shame and leave mine to me.
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Soccer on March 10, 2020, 07:38:49 AM
The context in Quran is about death of Jesus and whether he was killed or not and flow with that, says all people of the book will believe in him before his death.

It's so vividly clear, he has not died. But linguistic games can de-contextualize any words. Isolate - decontextualize - and give metaphoric or alternate meaning then intended is possible with all books. But no one reads books like, that, except God's book, because how much humans disrespect God their Creator due to sorcery from Iblis.

Mohamad in the Gospels is still clear, yet, people deny it out of similar linguistic decontextualizing and twisting left right and centre that they can't even recognize what the holy spirit meant in the Torah And Gospels and books between.

Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Rationalist on June 07, 2020, 05:31:52 PM
The context in Quran is about death of Jesus and whether he was killed or not and flow with that, says all people of the book will believe in him before his death.

It's so vividly clear, he has not died. But linguistic games can de-contextualize any words. Isolate - decontextualize - and give metaphoric or alternate meaning then intended is possible with all books. But no one reads books like, that, except God's book, because how much humans disrespect God their Creator due to sorcery from Iblis.

Mohamad in the Gospels is still clear, yet, people deny it out of similar linguistic decontextualizing and twisting left right and centre that they can't even recognize what the holy spirit meant in the Torah And Gospels and books between.



Shaykh Saduq believed he died.
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Soccer on June 07, 2020, 07:00:17 PM
Shaykh Saduq believed he died.

He can believe pigs fly for all I care, your point?
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Rationalist on June 08, 2020, 12:07:14 AM
He can believe pigs fly for all I care, your point?

This is no ijma in the ummah for his return. You can still be a momin without believing in his return.
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Soccer on June 08, 2020, 02:08:33 AM
This is no ijma in the ummah for his return. You can still be a momin without believing in his return.

There is no Ijma on a single concept or verse in Quran. 
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Rationalist on June 08, 2020, 02:17:03 AM
Are you feeling okay? There are Mukhamath verses where there cannot be any disagreements.
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Soccer on June 08, 2020, 02:32:12 AM
Are you feeling okay? There are Mukhamath verses where there cannot be any disagreements.

When you say cannot, you underestimate human mind creativity. For example, think about the verses about day of judgment. Well Bahais play individually linguistic games with all of them because their Prophet told them it's not what Muslims think it is, but is about him and a all prophecy regarding him.

I'm just giving you a heads up of reality.

If those verses are not clear enough to convince Bahais, is it God's fault? Or is this just the nature of language and human deviance, we can deviate and be obtuse?
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Rationalist on June 08, 2020, 04:16:31 AM
Qadianis and Bahais are not part of the ummah. You cannot get creative with the Mukhamath verses unless you want to exit from what the ummah agreed upon.
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Soccer on June 08, 2020, 04:20:05 AM
Qadianis and Bahais are not part of the ummah. You cannot get creative with the Mukhamath verses unless you want to exit from what the ummah agreed upon.

What you are saying now is not making sense.  The point of cannot disagree means no other interpretation can be given possibly by a human right? Well they did.

So just like you don't take their obtuse behaviour seriously, I can't take seriously for example, obtuse behavior to verse 42:23 and am 100% sure of Ahlulbayt position in Quran

The same is true of the return of Isa (a) which the context and flow, clearly shows, he has not died yet and will only die when there is no longer any person in the earth left who doesn't believe in him.   

Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Rationalist on June 08, 2020, 05:39:53 AM
What you are saying now is not making sense.  The point of cannot disagree means no other interpretation can be given possibly by a human right? Well they did.
Its not my view. Its where the Shia, Sunni, Mutazilla and Khawarij agree.

Quote
So just like you don't take their obtuse behaviour seriously, I can't take seriously for example, obtuse behavior to verse 42:23 and am 100% sure of Ahlulbayt position in Quran
Again Ali did not call the Khawarij kaffir and told them they are welcome to pray at his mosque. Also your sect demands Shia to pay 20% of their savings every year.

Quote
The same is true of the return of Isa (a) which the context and flow, clearly shows, he has not died yet and will only die when there is no longer any person in the earth left who doesn't believe in him.   




Yes there are other views. In the Quran it says majority will follow Prophet Isa(as) when he returns. So he will be in a greater position than the Mahdi.
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Soccer on June 09, 2020, 03:26:02 AM
The Mahdi will be sent by God and will establish justice and will rule the world, Jesus (a) will support him and be among the proofs for the Mahdi (a).

The Mahdi (a) will revive the Sunnah and bring the light of Quran out to humanity, and is the perfection of God's light talked about in Quran.

According to Mutuwatur hadiths, there will be no Caliphate in other then Quraysh, Jesus (a) doesn't come from Quraysh, so he won't rule.

Jesus (a) will come back while our leader already among us per hadiths, will pray behind him, and will not rule humans but rather the ruler per all the hadiths, shows, no one apart from Quraysh will do so. The Mahdi (a) is from Quraysh, Jesus (a), Elijah (a), Idris (a), Khidr (a) and others we don't know about, will support the Mahdi (a) but not rule.

This is how superior the Mahdi (a) is.
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Rationalist on June 09, 2020, 07:42:38 PM
Imam Jafar told us to smash any hadith against the wall that goes against the Quran. The Quran verse that when Prophet Isa (as) returns majority will follow him. It does not say that for Mahdi. 
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Soccer on June 09, 2020, 08:21:35 PM
The position of Ahlulbayt (a) is in the Quran.   The Quran says people will believe in Jesus as is, without making into a god nor neglection who he is as chosen by God, doesn't say anything about him ruling or being the one who establishes justice.


Rather, Quran shows one house replaces another, and the house of Mohammad (s) replaced the previous family of the reminder.
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Rationalist on June 10, 2020, 01:16:56 AM
The position of Ahlulbayt (a) is in the Quran.   The Quran says people will believe in Jesus as is, without making into a god nor neglection who he is as chosen by God, doesn't say anything about him ruling or being the one who establishes justice.


Rather, Quran shows one house replaces another, and the house of Mohammad (s) replaced the previous family of the reminder.

No the Quran says those who follow Prophet Isa(as) will be dominant in the end times.
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Soccer on June 10, 2020, 01:37:39 AM
Guess we are wrong for following Mohammad (s) then.
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Rationalist on June 10, 2020, 01:47:37 AM
That is why its verse of mutashabihat and the scholars differed on it. Some even went as far as saying he is will not return and the narrations are Israeliyath.

As for following, we respect all 4 books and all Prophets. The word of Allah is superior to human thought. We also believe the Injeel is also true holy book. The Quran still respects other semetic religions and call them the people of the book. In addition it says the Christians will be closest to you in love and affection.

Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Soccer on June 10, 2020, 02:00:38 AM
Let Quran contextualize it's own verses and nothing of it will remain unclear.
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Rationalist on June 10, 2020, 02:12:26 AM
Read Surah Imran Verse 7

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Soccer on June 10, 2020, 02:21:01 AM
Quran emphasizes it's a clear book and that it explains it's own signs and proofs in many verses. No doubt, a lot of ambiguity comes from it but that's not due to it being ambiguous but that is due to the following reasons that it explains:

1. Overwhelmed by sorcery.
2. If signs clarified after being overwhelmed by sorcery, it's due hearts choosing to be hard and stubborn.
3. The family of the reminder not sought for mental clarity.
4. Hard hearts decontextualizing the verses from it's places and this is again showing the nature of sorcery with this respect, it breaks the flow and contextualization rule of language.
5. Being playful and want to interpret Quran per one's caprice.
6. Relying on others as authority to Quran when Quran forbid to rely on anyone but God's chosen as authority regarding it.
7. Lack of reflection.
8. Insincerity.
9. Disbelief with little belief in that which has been hidden.
10. Taking most of the Quran as irrelevant stories.
11. Making a mockery of Quranic verses.
12. Believing in the Jibt and Taghut and worshiping it with God.

The Quran is a clear book.  The ambiguity followed from it, is due to our own evil. While, if we engage with per it's own terms, it becomes vividly clear.

Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Rationalist on June 10, 2020, 03:24:35 AM
No its not due to my evil. You are just arrogant. Some of the verses only Allah knows best. The reality is the Quran says Prophet Isa (as) and those who follow him will be superior. Its not the Mahdi. In fact our hadith says Mahdi will not rule for more than 9 years max. Like Imam Ali(as) his rule will not be long.
Title: Re: PRELUDE: Why There Is NO 2nd Coming Of Jesus (as) In Islam- Mufti Abu Layth
Post by: Soccer on June 10, 2020, 04:14:10 AM
The Quran is a clear book, of course, there is so much knowledge from it we don't know, I'm not saying you have to understand it all.  It's quite something to say I don't understand it all, don't know it all, it's another thing to say you see this phrase here, it's ambiguous.  The Quran is clear book, people disagreeing on it's clear signs is from their own injustice but it's not a willful choice. It's a choice they gave into being overwhelmed by sorcery, propaganda, and culture of insincerity to God and no fear of attributing him falsehood we inherited generation to generation.