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Proving there is exactly "twelve" successors.

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Proving there is exactly "twelve" successors.
« on: December 26, 2016, 11:57:32 PM »
Ibn Ayash Al-Hafeth: Narrated from me Abu Ali Ahmad ibn Mohammad ibn Jaffar Al-Usooli Al-Basiri, narrated from Abdar Rahman ibn Saleh ibn Raeeda narrated from Hussain ibn Hameed ibn Rabee' narrated Al-Hamshi narrated from Mohammad Al-Khalif Al-Taataatari, narrated from Zidaan narrated from Salman:

he said I entered upon the Messenger of God one day so when he looked at me he said "O Salman God doesn't raise a Prophet or a Messenger except he makes for him Twelve Captains". Salman said: "O Messenger of God, I know this from the people of two books", The Messenger of God so then said "O Salman so do you know who are the my Twelve Captains then God chosen as Leaders after me?" He said "God and his Messenger know better", "God created me from his own light so he called me so I obeyed him, then he created Ali from my light, and called him so he obeyed him, from my light and Ali's light he created Fatima, so he called her so she obeyed him, and from my light and the light of Ali, and Fatima he created Al-Hassan and Al-Hussain. And he called them and they obeyed him. So God named us with five names from his names, so God is the Praised (Al-Mahmud) and I am Mohammad (praised),and God is Al-Ali (The Exalted) and this is Ali (exalted), and God is the Originator/Source and this is Fatima (the original nature/the origin/the source) , and God is the owner of goodness (Dul-Ehsan) and this Al-Hassan (The good) and God is the Beautiful/Beautified and this is Hussain (the beautiful). Then God created from us and from the light of Hussain nine leaders so he called them and they obeyed him before God created a vast sky or spread earth or water or wind or a moral, we were in his knowledge lights who glorified him and who listened to him and obeyed him."....

The hadith goes on and one of things stated by the Messenger of God is there is no faith without knowing their names, and he names them all to Salman.

But let us investigate the issue of "Twelve".

 

The verse the Rasool is obviously alluding to and teaching to Salman Farsi is the verse 5:12.  He is stating this is not only the case for the Moses, but the case for all Prophets.

But what does this mean when the twelve Captains of our Messenger are leaders after him. It would logically follow this refers to leaders after Moses. But how that make sense when they themselves are Prophets? Well it makes sense, because they are a group of 13 men. Each one of them has twelve Captains with him, if they included Moses in that.

That is to say for example, the Twelve Captains with Imam Reda in our nation (who is not a Prophet or Messenger) is Rasool all the way up to Imam Al-Musa A-Kathim + Imam Jewad all the way to Al-Mahdi.

But why does this model make sense?

Let us think of this issue with the religion of God requiring proofs...there can be divisions in Bani-Israel for example of who were Prophets who were not, different numbers of leaders and Prophets they believe in, but this is showing when God took the covenant with Bani-Israel, he assigned and rose over them 12 Captains.

Just as we ourselves would be confused as to what sect is right without a designation from Rasool to the numbers of Imams, it's the same with all nations before.

They all need a number? Now what is wiser on God, what is smarter and more intelligent, to designate different numbers each nation, or to be consistent, and always emphasized that he appointed Twelve Successors to each founding Prophet each nation.

You really think about it, the verse 5:12 is among many things, saying God is consistent and wise, and he appointed exactly Twelve Captains with the covenant of Bani-Israel for a reason. That Moses was followed up by 12 Captains for a reason.

The wisdom of why exactly Twelve is not the subject of this topic, rather, that we know there is wisdom in the number he has picked, and that God would be consistent in the past. That is before Bani-Israel, when he saved believers and founded a nation with a founding Prophet, there would be a follow up of 12 Captains.

Now of course, when we think of it this way, it is obvious the Ulil-Amr are also Twelve.

Additional to Suratal Maeeda, the number Twelve with emphasis of guidance appears else where. For example, in Suratal Araaf, it emphasized that there were a people from Bani-Israel who guided by the truth. One way to see it is that those people were divided into twelve ways, and were grandchildren going back to a single root (ie. they were related by blood through a root grandfather). And the emphasis on twelve springs by Moses from before, with a stone, can be emphasis that each people knew their drinking place (ie. each knew the source of guidance they need to cling to, and the door of God to enter).

In fact, the miracle of Moses, is a sign for all those before him, and final us, those after him. This is why the Quran talks about in that context. That is why it emphasizes it with the light brought down.

Just as Rasool needs to clarify for us, the same is true of Moses. That is the real context of Quran in Suratal Maeeda. And as the theme of suratal Maeeda is primarily surrounded on the event of Ghadeer, we see the talk of Bani-Israel all pertains to guiding our nation, so we don't follow the misguidance with regards to Wilayah of Allah and his chosen ones.

Notice there was no more then 12 Captains risen in Bani-Israel and the verse after talks about the people of Bani-Israel in that current generation, which confirms is was not simply people alive during Moses life time, but for people after.

And this among other proofs in Quran also proves Aeron was the actual successor of Moses.

 If we read everywhere there is mention Twelve it has to do with the upright religion and the covenant of Bani-Israel and the door they were meant to enter by.

The twelve rivers are emphasizing that we must not mix with our pure source of drink others who will pollute our water. In other words this miracle like the mountain being risen over them was symbolic of the path their nation had to tread.

In case of the Twelve Months and upright religion it's a contrast to the corrupt priests and Rabbis, and in context is saying: "There is but Twelve representatives of the Messenger", no one else is to take on this role of taking his place and representing his light, but the Twelve. It's similar to "You Wali is only..." and the Ulil-Amr verse in contrast to the Jibt and Taghut and "do they have share in the authority...".

All praise to God who guided us to this and we would not be guided to it were it not for God guiding us to it.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

lotfilms

Re: Proving there is exactly "twelve" successors.
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2016, 02:27:25 AM »
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
السلام عليكم

In terms of Allah(swt) appointing 12 نقيب for Bani Isra'eel (Quran 5:12), are these the same leaders as the Imams appointed in (32:24)?
And if this is the case, then why wouldn't that be evidence for there being 12 Imams for this Ummah considering that......
فَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّـهِ تَبْدِيلًا ۖ وَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّتِ اللَّـهِ تَحْوِيلًا
But you will never find in the way of Allah any change, and you will never find in the way of Allah any alteration
[Part of 35:43] Saheeh International

Unless you say that appointing 12 leaders isn't from the Sunnah of Allah(swt)?

i'm obviously no scholar and my words shouldn't be closely listened to but just asking questions

والله أعلم
والسلام
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 02:32:25 AM by lotfilms »

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Re: Proving there is exactly "twelve" successors.
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2016, 05:25:06 AM »
Salam

Different words lose their meanings over time, but Quran gives them special meaning.

The word "Imam" has a special meaning, for God says "the day every human will be called with their Imam". We are not our Imam neither is our book of deeds our Imam nor is our moral sense the leader, but rather as Quran shows there is a witness who witnessed us who will be called to on the day of judgement. That is the Imam.

The Quran shows Abraham became an Imam for humanity, and that bani-Israel had Imams who guide by Allah's command.

But in Suratal Maeeda, it is limiting more than that type of Imammate. It is coming down to the level, that there is only Twelve Captains for the boat that sails by the Name of God, that is steered and anchored by the name of God.

The emphasis of them being Captains is saying there was no one else to steer and direct Bani-Israel but these twelve. The continuation of verse with emphasizing on Messengers and Prophets show they were Prophets and Messengers.

But the point it's it's emphasizing in flow with 'Today I have completed your religion....'.

In other places, to clarify, Abraham is said to be a way. That is an ummatan, that is a way towards God, a course towards God.

In regards to the people who guide by the truth from Bani-Isael, they were divided into twelve ways, being grandchildren, and Moses caused twelve springs to gush out because it was symbolic of this path to God and door to God, that was split into twelve doors and ways to God.

In some places, there is emphasis on chosen families. Other places as leaders. Other places as Captains. Some place it brings all these themes together and emphasis they represent and hold God's Name.

The reality is there is themes of twelve in the Bible but it's mostly to distort what they truly were emphasized on. That is why when Quran talks about them changing the word regarding the door they were suppose to enter, that right after it talks about twelve rivers.

If we remember all the verses mentioning twelve and see the verses before and after, there is a theme.  And if we connect other verses with other themes in Quran, it all comes together.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Husayn

Re: Proving there is exactly "twelve" successors.
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2016, 12:01:47 PM »
The 12 leaders were for the 12 tribes.

This would be like appointing a leader for every Arab tribe.

@lotfilms

"Unless you say that appointing 12 leaders isn't from the Sunnah of Allah(swt)?"

The Sunnah of Allah (swt) is to destroy the ones who disobey His command - not to appoint 12 leaders.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Hani

Re: Proving there is exactly "twelve" successors.
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2016, 12:11:20 PM »
The narrow minded ones do not understand when Muslims say "The Sunnah of Allah", this is a general statement that means God will always send a guide and order people to worship Him alone then punish the evil-doers and test the believers etc... These are the unchanging universal Sunan.

It doesn't mean that if God ordered Jews to not hunt on a Saturday then we Muslims can't hunt on a Saturday, nor does it mean if for each of the Isra'ili tribes a leader was appointed then for each Arab tribe a leader will be appointed, nor does it mean that if Sulayman (as) was succeeded by his son then Muhammad (saw) will be succeeded by his son etc...

Indeed, being narrow minded is not helpful.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

MuslimAnswers

Re: Proving there is exactly "twelve" successors.
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2016, 12:29:40 PM »
^

If anything, bringing in a Verse like 32:24 would clinch the argument for the Sunni side, since the Verse mentions appointing of the 'Aimmah' once the people showed patience and became convinced of Allah's Signs, this is very much in contrast with Twelver ideology.

muslim720

Re: Proving there is exactly "twelve" successors.
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2016, 04:41:40 PM »
he said I entered upon the Messenger of God one day so when he looked at me he said "O Salman God doesn't raise a Prophet or a Messenger except he makes for him Twelve Captains". Salman said: "O Messenger of God, I know this from the people of two books", The Messenger of God so then said "O Salman so do you know who are the my Twelve Captains then God chosen as Leaders after me?" He said "God and his Messenger know better", "God created me from his own light so he called me so I obeyed him, then he created Ali from my light, and called him so he obeyed him, from my light and Ali's light he created Fatima, so he called her so she obeyed him

Err, this contradicts the following Shia narration and belief.  It is believed that Allah (swt) said the following to Prophet Muhammad (saw):
“If it wasn’t for you, I would not have created the Universe, and if it wasn’t for Ali, I would not have created you, and if it wasn’t for Fatemeh, I would not have created either of you.”

However, in the narration you have shared with us, we see that Imam Ali's (ra) creation was contingent upon the Prophet's (saw) obedience and Fatima's (ra) creation was contingent upon Imam Ali's (ra) obedience.

https://gift2shias.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/seyyed-mohammad-sadegh-rohani-official-website-060501.png

"And it also becomes clear why after the resurrection of mankind and accountability of their deeds, the Holy Prophet (saw) is the first person to proceed towards heaven, and there is only one group of people that will precede him and that is the honorable group of Hazrat Fatemeh (sa)."

Salawaat!
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 04:42:46 PM by muslim720 »
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

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Re: Proving there is exactly "twelve" successors.
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2017, 12:06:08 AM »
^

If anything, bringing in a Verse like 32:24 would clinch the argument for the Sunni side, since the Verse mentions appointing of the 'Aimmah' once the people showed patience and became convinced of Allah's Signs, this is very much in contrast with Twelver ideology.

First of all the other verses show there was but Twelve Captains to steer the boat of salvation that sails by the name of God.  According to Sunnis tafsirs, there are hadiths attributed to Ibn Abbas that states they became Prophets.

Secondly, are you saying Prophets were not Imams who Guide by Allah's command? Please think about this. If they are, then this verse applies to them even if you try to make it inclusive about others. The verse didn't say we made Imams who guide by Allah's command aside from Prophets from Bani-Israel, when they were patient and sure of our sings. And in fact, in Bani-Israel this particularly refers to them. 

Thirdly, the better way to perceive it "la ma sabaru" "for what they were patient in while they were certain of our signs".

This would mean they were chosen for high quality love and resolve to God's obedience, which, in fact, they were patient in it.

But they were chosen before they had to patient in it. It wasn't like God was testing them in this world for the station of Imammate. God already determined who the 12 Captains who would steer by the name of God were, and who would guide by his command on the spiritual journey of believers, in Bani-Israel.

Thirdly, these servants of God who are chosen make prayer that mutaqeen all get guided by them, and their prayers are answered.

The servants of Ar-Rahman who are chosen for guidance of humanity, which were the subject of Suratal Furqan (ie. they were asking about why wasn't Prophet given this and that), are Imams of the mutaqeen.

And this is a greater honor for them then being given mansions or castles or having the physical kingdom of Wordly kings, it's that they guide God fearing on the journey to God and this is there greatest wish, which Allah establishes for them and sends revelations that may bring humans out of the darkness into the light and then guide them through out the journey.

You are becoming allergic to guidance and favor of God on his chosen ones. Do you want to say the Imams there are scholars? The same scholars that lead people against Isa and sat by and watched Yahya get killed.

Or is there is pious scholars among them who had divine proof of their leadership, and would take leadership while Prophets were among them?

Or do you mean after the Prophets all left, Allah [swt] tied his rope to these scholars even though the Quran says "Or do they have a share in the authority?" .

You are missing out on the whole point of the emphasis of the mountain and covenant with Harun's name, and the Sinai which refers to that of moon, so physical moon mountain (mount Sinai) was symbolic of Harun's leadership.

And while Christians and Jews say the priest office in general has been given to scholars that Aeron and his children were vested with, the reality, Quran comes to say, that in fact, these grandchildren all going back to one root, were twelve ways among Bani-Israel and were symbolized as well with the twelve rivers, meaning, each people ought to know there drinking place which was the door of God to enter by.

These 12 Captains guided by God's command and were doors to God, not scholars, not those chiefs questioning the authority of Talut, not the blind people watching Yahya get slaughtered.

God will be the judge of who truly follows the ambiguities and darkness that comes from God's book when wanting to put one's interpretation on it and who is true to the book and made it their leader and guide to what is true, and the leader and guide to who God truly wants us to stick to and are the rope of God's book.



Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Ebn Hussein

Re: Proving there is exactly "twelve" successors.
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2017, 02:22:41 AM »
Your 12th useless one is the worst captain in the world. He is steering nothing, a myth, hence each decade you invented something new, with the latest invention being WTF (Wilayat al-Faqih).
الإمام الشافعي رحمه الله
لم أر أحداً من أهل الأهواء أشهد بالزور من الرافضة! - الخطيب في الكفاية والسوطي.

Imam Al-Shafi3i - may Allah have mercy upon him - said: "I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Rafidah." [narrated by Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi/Al-Kifayah]

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Re: Proving there is exactly "twelve" successors.
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2017, 02:44:34 AM »
Your 12th useless one is the worst captain in the world. He is steering nothing, a myth, hence each decade you invented something new, with the latest invention being WTF (Wilayat al-Faqih).

Elyas was alive in Bani-Israel for a reason. He is mentioned in two strange orders in Quran. One is "..Zakiraya and Yahya and Jesus and Elyas...". The other is where he is mentioned and Jesus is not mentioned in Suratal Saffact. The question is why?

To me it seems this a serious hint that when Jesus was lifted toward God and a high place with him, Jesus was no longer their witness and hence not their spiritual guide.

One way to perceive things is that Shamoon became successor, but we know, there was but 12 Captains. Say he was successor, once, he dies....who is next?

Eventually, between Jesus and Mohammad, there was a period where there were no Messengers nor apparent guides.  But Quran seriously hints that Shamoon was not the successor when it talks about hawariyoon who although were very pious were not on the level of faith as the chosen ones of God.

The real reason it mentions Elyas After Jesus in that aya seems to be because he is the one who became guide on earth. But he was not apparent he was hidden among people.

The Quran says "and for every people there is a guide", but says regarding the "sign" "You are only a warner and the hiding/hiddenness is for God so wait we too are waiting".

Even during Mohammad time, the clear proof and sign of Mohammad's Guidance was not apparent to the whole world, it was only apparent some people in a very limited area and place.

Hence we are awaiting the time when the sign of God for the Guide on earth will become manifest to the whole world.  This has not happened.

But yet the Quran states "the day every human will be called with their Imam" and "for every people there is a Guide" and "the day every people will be called with a witness from themselves" and says regarding the servants special to God's eyes "and make us for the pious leaders/guides".

The path to God is unseen and hence there is a means that connects us which is hidden and unseen.

The path is not just concept nor is some physical light linked to God nor is it non-living light that gives us guidance. The name of God and face of God and light of God lives and God is the blessed one by his name in the blessings and the blessed light.

Every human is connected to this guide, but it's about spiritual awakening to our true guide, separating him from Iblis and realizing the path we must tread and how it's going to be tread.

Most people don't realize in themselves neither the unclean spirit of Iblis neither the spirit of Taha and Yaseen, God's blessed word of light. They can't separate the two and mix it all together.

The Quran is all about awakening to the light we must walk by, the unseen ways of ascension, and ultimately it has always been upon God to guide us in his ways and there are ways that mislead and disconnect us from God.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

 

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