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Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"

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confusedshia

Salam,

A Shi'i friend of mine claims that your article here is misleading and false: http://www.twelvershia.net/2015/05/12/hadith-of-twelve-caliphs/

He says your team claim that the hadith is only narrated by Jabir bin Samura. However, it is narrated by others such as Abdullah ibn Amr within Kitab as-Sunnah by Ibn Abi 'Asim and graded as sahih by Al-Albani in his tahqiq of the collection. He further claims that it's also narrated by Ibn Mas'ud in Musnad Ahmad with an isnad that is hasan. And that he has seen other narrations by Ibn Umar and Hudhayfa.

What is your response?

Hani

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2018, 10:40:56 PM »
Salam,

A Shi'i friend of mine claims that your article here is misleading and false: http://www.twelvershia.net/2015/05/12/hadith-of-twelve-caliphs/

He says your team claim that the hadith is only narrated by Jabir bin Samura. However, it is narrated by others such as Abdullah ibn Amr within Kitab as-Sunnah by Ibn Abi 'Asim and graded as sahih by Al-Albani in his tahqiq of the collection. He further claims that it's also narrated by Ibn Mas'ud in Musnad Ahmad with an isnad that is hasan. And that he has seen other narrations by Ibn Umar and Hudhayfa.

What is your response?

Tell him the one that's narrated by `Abdullah bin `Amr in al-Sunnah by Ibn abi `Asim is #1187, it contains Rabi`ah bin Sayf who is weak and states: `Abdullah bin `Amr said: I heard the Messenger (saw) say: "There will be twelve Caliphs after me, starting with Abu Bakr al-Siddiq whose rule won't last long."

The one in Musnad Ahmad by `Abdullah bin Mas`ud is weak due to Mujalid bin Sa`id, here it is:
 حَدَّثَنَا حَسَنُ بْنُ مُوسَى ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ زَيْدٍ ، عَنِ الْمُجَالِدِ ، عَنِ الشَّعْبِيِّ ، عَنْ مَسْرُوقٍ ، قَالَ : كُنَّا جُلُوسًا عِنْدَ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ مَسْعُودٍ

The text is also rejected since it states ONLY twelve Caliphs will rule over this nation and this is incorrect since more than twelve have ruled.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

confusedshia

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2018, 04:32:53 AM »
Tell him the one that's narrated by `Abdullah bin `Amr in al-Sunnah by Ibn abi `Asim is #1187, it contains Rabi`ah bin Sayf who is weak and states: `Abdullah bin `Amr said: I heard the Messenger (saw) say: "There will be twelve Caliphs after me, starting with Abu Bakr al-Siddiq whose rule won't last long."

The one in Musnad Ahmad by `Abdullah bin Mas`ud is weak due to Mujalid bin Sa`id, here it is:
 حَدَّثَنَا حَسَنُ بْنُ مُوسَى ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ زَيْدٍ ، عَنِ الْمُجَالِدِ ، عَنِ الشَّعْبِيِّ ، عَنْ مَسْرُوقٍ ، قَالَ : كُنَّا جُلُوسًا عِنْدَ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ مَسْعُودٍ

The text is also rejected since it states ONLY twelve Caliphs will rule over this nation and this is incorrect since more than twelve have ruled.

Thanks. Now that you have posted the full reports I can see that this does not seem to align with the Twelver claim. However, just out of interest, which scholars of Hadith have actually declared these two hadiths to be weak in their tahqiq? Or is this just through your own personal research and judgement?

As for the second report, my friend claims that the Imams ruled over their own followers so the second hadith still applies.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 04:34:14 AM by confusedshia »

Farid

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2018, 06:26:07 PM »
Quote
As for the second report, my friend claims that the Imams ruled over their own followers so the second hadith still applies.

They didn't. Nine Imams issued religious rulings but never ruled. They had no authority over the people. There are no instances of them applying hudood for example.


Hani

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2018, 08:11:18 PM »
It's not my personal judgement of course, the book is here, go to page 548 and see that al-Albani said "Chain is weak"
https://ia802307.us.archive.org/32/items/FPksunna/ksunna.pdf

As for the Imams they ruled over nobody and had no authority, they couldn't enforce capital punishment, they commanded no armies, they had no authority to appoint governors or dictate policies, they lived in Taqiyyah and were too scared to even announce their so called "Imamah" to their supporters.

So... no, they weren't Ameers or Caliphs.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 08:15:25 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Optimus Prime

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2018, 09:14:27 PM »
In the Shia version of events, you can say they were cowards.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2018, 02:53:25 AM »
Tell him the one that's narrated by `Abdullah bin `Amr in al-Sunnah by Ibn abi `Asim is #1187, it contains Rabi`ah bin Sayf who is weak and states: `Abdullah bin `Amr said: I heard the Messenger (saw) say: "There will be twelve Caliphs after me, starting with Abu Bakr al-Siddiq whose rule won't last long."

Alhamdulillah... that shows how objective Ahlus Sunnah are. Even though a Twelver himself brought up that hadith, we still graded it objectively even though the matn of the hadith is a definite proof against what Twelvers believe.

MuslimAnswers

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2018, 05:10:26 AM »

As for the Imams they ruled over nobody and had no authority, they couldn't enforce capital punishment, they commanded no armies, they had no authority to appoint governors or dictate policies, they lived in Taqiyyah and were too scared to even announce their so called "Imamah" to their supporters.

So... no, they weren't Ameers or Caliphs.

We should remember, that in many discussions, Twelvers proudly say that even 'Ali (RAA) never ruled properly at all, so them turning around and saying they are Khulafaa' or Umaraa' just for basically scoring a point in an argument seems strange.

confusedshia

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2018, 06:36:27 PM »
It's not my personal judgement of course, the book is here, go to page 548 and see that al-Albani said "Chain is weak"
https://ia802307.us.archive.org/32/items/FPksunna/ksunna.pdf

As for the Imams they ruled over nobody and had no authority, they couldn't enforce capital punishment, they commanded no armies, they had no authority to appoint governors or dictate policies, they lived in Taqiyyah and were too scared to even announce their so called "Imamah" to their supporters.

So... no, they weren't Ameers or Caliphs.

Thank you for providing the grading for the report in al sunna. however, are you sure we are referring to the same report in Musnad Ahmad on the authority of Ibn Masud? I've been given the following wording: Someone comes to Abdullah ibn Masud and asks him: Did Prophet tell you how many caliphs to this ummah? Ibn Masud said, “Yes, and no one asked me this except you.” He then said, “12 – just like Bani Israel” which was graded as hasan by ibn hajr.

So are you referring to a different hadith of Ibn Masud when you say it is daef and whose grading is it and where does it say daef?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2018, 11:00:38 PM »
Thank you for providing the grading for the report in al sunna. however, are you sure we are referring to the same report in Musnad Ahmad on the authority of Ibn Masud? I've been given the following wording: Someone comes to Abdullah ibn Masud and asks him: Did Prophet tell you how many caliphs to this ummah? Ibn Masud said, “Yes, and no one asked me this except you.” He then said, “12 – just like Bani Israel” which was graded as hasan by ibn hajr.

So are you referring to a different hadith of Ibn Masud when you say it is daef and whose grading is it and where does it say daef?

Strange! Ibn hajar himself considered one of the narrator Mujallid bin saeed as weak.

confusedshia

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2018, 11:05:26 PM »
Strange! Ibn hajar himself considered one of the narrator Mujallid bin saeed as weak.

maybe it is hasan li ghayrihi?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2018, 11:10:03 PM »
maybe it is hasan li ghayrihi?

May be. If there is no Nakarah in the matn.

Syed alii

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2018, 10:12:47 PM »
Thank you for providing the grading for the report in al sunna. however, are you sure we are referring to the same report in Musnad Ahmad on the authority of Ibn Masud? I've been given the following wording: Someone comes to Abdullah ibn Masud and asks him: Did Prophet tell you how many caliphs to this ummah? Ibn Masud said, “Yes, and no one asked me this except you.” He then said, “12 – just like Bani Israel” which was graded as hasan by ibn hajr.

So are you referring to a different hadith of Ibn Masud when you say it is daef and whose grading is it and where does it say daef?

These people are well known for weakening hadiths as they please. The reason Hani hasn’t replied (nor anyone else) is because not a single reputable scholar throughout history has ever graded these two hadiths of Ibn Masud as daef, this includes both the one which says there will be twelve caliphs like bani isra’il, as well as the other narration which includes Mujalid bin Sa`id. I challenge them to find 1 renowned scholar of hadith that has declared these reports to be daef. Just tell us the name of the scholar and which book the grading was declared in. If they can meet my challenge, I will become Sunni. My advise is to stay away from such ppl who weaken narrations as they please!
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 10:15:44 PM by Syed alii »

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2018, 12:12:47 AM »
These people are well known for weakening hadiths as they please. The reason Hani hasn’t replied (nor anyone else) is because not a single reputable scholar throughout history has ever graded these two hadiths of Ibn Masud as daef, this includes both the one which says there will be twelve caliphs like bani isra’il, as well as the other narration which includes Mujalid bin Sa`id. I challenge them to find 1 renowned scholar of hadith that has declared these reports to be daef. Just tell us the name of the scholar and which book the grading was declared in. If they can meet my challenge, I will become Sunni. My advise is to stay away from such ppl who weaken narrations as they please!

Sheikh Shuaib Arnaut declared the chain as weak in his Tahqeeq of Musnad Ahmad on page 321. On page 322, he quotes the view of Allama Al-Sindi.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 12:13:49 AM by Noor-us-Sunnah »

confusedshia

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2018, 12:42:46 AM »
Sheikh Shuaib Arnaut declared the chain as weak in his Tahqeeq of Musnad Ahmad on page 321. On page 322, he quotes the view of Allama Al-Sindi.
 [ Attachment ]   [ Attachment ]  [ Attachment ]

Sorry, I don't read Arabic. Can you tell me which hadith this is? Is it the one which says there will be 12 caliphs who rule or the one which mentions Bani Israeel?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2018, 12:52:18 AM »
Sorry, I don't read Arabic. Can you tell me which hadith this is? Is it the one which says there will be 12 caliphs who rule or the one which mentions Bani Israeel?
Its about the twleve Caliphs like the Nuqaba of Bani Israel. Shuaib Arnaut graded the chain as weak due to Mujalid bin Saeed.

confusedshia

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2018, 01:13:15 AM »
Its about the twleve Caliphs like the Nuqaba of Bani Israel. Shuaib Arnaut graded the chain as weak due to Mujalid bin Saeed.

Thanks. So what about the other one? What does Shuaib Arnaut say about that?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2018, 01:34:04 AM »
Thanks. So what about the other one? What does Shuaib Arnaut say about that?
Which one?

confusedshia

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2018, 02:07:58 AM »
Which one?

Sorry, I'm confused. Is there only one hadith from Ibn Masud on this within Musnad Ahmad? I thought there was another one so wanted to know what Arnaut said about it.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2018, 02:34:49 AM »
Sorry, I'm confused. Is there only one hadith from Ibn Masud on this within Musnad Ahmad? I thought there was another one so wanted to know what Arnaut said about it.
There is another one, which more weaker than the previous one and again has Mujalid in it.

Shuaib arnaut declared its chain as weak due to Mujalid and Abi Aqeel.


 

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