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Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"

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Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2018, 02:39:06 AM »
I challenge them to find 1 renowned scholar of hadith that has declared these reports to be daef. Just tell us the name of the scholar and which book the grading was declared in.If they can meet my challenge, I will become Sunni.
Lol. I'm waiting.

confusedshia

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2018, 02:45:00 AM »
There is another one, which more weaker than the previous one and again has Mujalid in it.

Shuaib arnaut declared its chain as weak due to Mujalid and Abi Aqeel.

 [ Attachment ]

Oh, I see. What is the wording of this one in English and is it also narrated by Ibn Masud?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2018, 03:18:34 AM »
Oh, I see. What is the wording of this one in English and is it also narrated by Ibn Masud?

Yes its by Ibn Masud, its similar hadeeth like the previous one...here he was asked how many Caliphs would there be after Prophet(saws), He replied: Just like the Nuqaba of Bani Israel.

Abu Muhammad


muslim720

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2018, 03:34:49 PM »
Of all the Shias, I think Syed alii will be known to have the shortest tenure on TwelverShia forum, lol.  The perfect example of "one and done" :D
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Syed alii

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2018, 11:33:59 PM »
Yes its by Ibn Masud, its similar hadeeth like the previous one...here he was asked how many Caliphs would there be after Prophet(saws), He replied: Just like the Nuqaba of Bani Israel.

Albani considered aranuts grading to be a mistake and said this narration was daef. Please go learn your books.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2018, 02:13:21 AM »
Albani considered aranuts grading to be a mistake and said this narration was daef. Please go learn your books.

Yes even I'm saying that the narration is da'eef. Lol.

Seems this guy  got a shock of his life. Your challenge is met. The members can testify it.

Syed alii

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2018, 04:31:23 AM »
Yes even I'm saying that the narration is da'eef. Lol.

Seems this guy  got a shock of his life. Your challenge is met. The members can testify it.

I meant to say Albani considered aranuts grading to be a mistake when he said this narration was daef. Please go learn your books.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2018, 07:27:58 AM »
I meant to say Albani considered aranuts grading to be a mistake when he said this narration was daef. Please go learn your books.

Is it me who should learn my books or is it you, you need to think twice before making challenges.

You made this challenge, to quote a single renowned scholar of hadeeth who weakened it. Well I did quote you one. So your challenge is met, hence stop dodging it. Shuaib arnaut not only weakened it, but even backed his view quoting the valuable comments of Allama Al-Sindi. 

not a single reputable scholar throughout history has ever graded these two hadiths of Ibn Masud as daef, this includes both the one which says there will be twelve caliphs like bani isra’il, as well as the other narration which includes Mujalid bin Sa`id. I challenge them to find 1 renowned scholar of hadith that has declared these reports to be daef. Just tell us the name of the scholar and which book the grading was declared in. If they can meet my challenge, I will become Sunni.

Even though, the challenge is met, but I know the nature of Shias...

Syed alii

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2018, 05:22:28 PM »
It's not my personal judgement of course, the book is here, go to page 548 and see that al-Albani said "Chain is weak"
https://ia802307.us.archive.org/32/items/FPksunna/ksunna.pdf

As for the Imams they ruled over nobody and had no authority, they couldn't enforce capital punishment, they commanded no armies, they had no authority to appoint governors or dictate policies, they lived in Taqiyyah and were too scared to even announce their so called "Imamah" to their supporters.

So... no, they weren't Ameers or Caliphs.

Another lie by Hani. You will never be able to produce a single quote of one of our scholars saying the imams (as) were too scared to announce their imama. But I know the nature of sunnis, proof is not needed for your claims.. is it?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2018, 06:18:45 PM »
Another lie by Hani.
As for now you have been proven as a liar and an over confident jahil. If you disagree then fulfill the promise you made in the challenge. And have some shame.

bint e aisha

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2018, 06:31:41 PM »
Ali bin abi Taalib RA has cursed those who don't fulfill their promises. It seems that Shias don't follow him.

It was narrated that ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib (may Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Whoever breaks the covenant of a Muslim, upon him be the curse of Allah, the angels and all the people, and Allah will not accept any obligatory or naafil act of worship from him.”
Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1870; Muslim, 1370.

Syed alii

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2018, 06:59:14 PM »
The sunnis have exposed their ignorance here. Hani claims that the imams were too scared to announce their imama. Where can this claim be found in the books of the Shia? Nowhere. It is just a lie by Hani.

Noor-us-Sunnah claims arnaut graded this as sahih but albani said this was a mistake and graded it as daef! is this your best daleel?

If the sunnis can show me 1 grading that is sahih and not considered to be a mistake (unlike noor as-sunnah’s grading which was corrected by albani) and show me where the proof is in shia books of the imams being too scared to announce their imama, then i will become sunni straight away.

iceman

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2018, 07:14:58 PM »
rAli bin abi Taalib RA has cursed those who don't fulfill their promises. It seems that Shias don't follow him.

It was narrated that ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib (may Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Whoever breaks the covenant of a Muslim, upon him be the curse of Allah, the angels and all the people, and Allah will not accept any obligatory or naafil act of worship from him.”
Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1870; Muslim, 1370.

"Ali bin abi Taalib RA has cursed those who don't fulfill their promises"

Curse? Ali? Did he? I thought the Sunnis believed that Ali and the Ahle Bayth never ever cursed anyone, and that cursing was an act and thing developed and done by Shias.

"It seems that Shias don't follow him"

How and in what way?

“Whoever breaks the covenant of a Muslim, upon him be the curse of Allah, the angels and all the people, and Allah will not accept any obligatory or naafil act of worship from him.”

Moavia broke the covenant, the agreement between him and Al Hassan. Any thoughts on Moavia?

iceman

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2018, 07:18:24 PM »
Is it me who should learn my books or is it you, you need to think twice before making challenges.

You made this challenge, to quote a single renowned scholar of hadeeth who weakened it. Well I did quote you one. So your challenge is met, hence stop dodging it. Shuaib arnaut not only weakened it, but even backed his view quoting the valuable comments of Allama Al-Sindi. 

Even though, the challenge is met, but I know the nature of Shias...

"Even though, the challenge is met, but I know the nature of Shias..."

Really, so what's the challenge then? And please do tell me about the nature you're so familiar with.

bint e aisha

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2018, 07:20:33 PM »
Quote from: Syed aliii
Noor-us-Sunnah claims arnaut graded this as sahih but albani said this was a mistake and graded it as daef! is this your best daleel?


What???!!! Are you a troll?

bint e aisha

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2018, 07:25:16 PM »
"Ali bin abi Taalib RA has cursed those who don't fulfill their promises"

Curse? Ali? Did he? I thought the Sunnis believed that Ali and the Ahle Bayth never ever cursed anyone, and that cursing was an act and thing developed and done by Shias.

"It seems that Shias don't follow him"

How and in what way?

“Whoever breaks the covenant of a Muslim, upon him be the curse of Allah, the angels and all the people, and Allah will not accept any obligatory or naafil act of worship from him.”

Moavia broke the covenant, the agreement between him and Al Hassan. Any thoughts on Moavia?


Have you read the entire thread? My post was directed to Syed Aliii  who issued this challenge:


Quote
I challenge them to find 1 renowned scholar of hadith that has declared these reports to be daef. Just tell us the name of the scholar and which book the grading was declared in. If they can meet my challenge, I will become Sunni.


Well, you can clearly see that his challenge has been met and he has broken his promise!
« Last Edit: March 30, 2018, 07:26:24 PM by bint e aisha »

confusedshia

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2018, 07:28:46 PM »
personally, i will accept the gradings of arnaut because this shows at the very least that these hadiths are disputable. i have to say, i'm not convinced that the idea of there been 12 infallible imams is something which can be proven from sunni hadiths.

however, i would like to know whether brother hani was correct in saying that the imams were too afraid to announce their views? can this really be found within shia books or is it just a sunni observation?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2018, 07:49:38 PM »
The sunnis have exposed their ignorance here. Hani claims that the imams were too scared to announce their imama. Where can this claim be found in the books of the Shia? Nowhere. It is just a lie by Hani.

Noor-us-Sunnah claims arnaut graded this as sahih but albani said this was a mistake and graded it as daef! is this your best daleel?

If the sunnis can show me 1 grading that is sahih and not considered to be a mistake (unlike noor as-sunnah’s grading which was corrected by albani) and show me where the proof is in shia books of the imams being too scared to announce their imama, then i will become sunni straight away.

1. After Shuaib Arnaut and Allama al-Sindi who weakened this report.

2. Here is another Hadeeth Scholar Sheikh Hussain Saleem Asad, who weakened this hadeeth in Musnad Abi Ya'la due to Mujalid bin Saeed again.


3. Sheikh Al-Albani in his Silsila al-daeefa weakened a random hadeeth pointing out Mujalid in the chain.

4. Sheikh Zubair Ali Za'ee weakened a random hadeeth in Sunan Abi Dawood pointing out the weakness of Mujalid.

Hani

Re: Refutation of the TwelverShia team on "hadith of the 12 caliphs"
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2018, 06:04:29 AM »
personally, i will accept the gradings of arnaut because this shows at the very least that these hadiths are disputable. i have to say, i'm not convinced that the idea of there been 12 infallible imams is something which can be proven from sunni hadiths.

however, i would like to know whether brother hani was correct in saying that the imams were too afraid to announce their views? can this really be found within shia books or is it just a sunni observation?

Salam,

You can probably find it in my issues of Ghaybah series on the website. I recall quoting al-Murtada saying the 12th Imam was in hiding since he cannot practice Taqiyyah unlike his fathers who never claimed Imamah for themselves.

There's also a report I recall of two Zaydis entering upon one of the Imams asking him about his Imamah then he denies it and they leave upon total misguidance (acc to Twelvers).
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

 

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