TwelverShia.net Forum

SC thread: How does the 12th Imam lead the Ummah?

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Hani

SC thread: How does the 12th Imam lead the Ummah?
« on: March 01, 2016, 08:39:40 PM »
Salam,


So somebody asked on SC here: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235035881-how-does-the-12th-imam-lead-the-ummah/


((the question is how does the 12th Imam leads the Ummah or the world as many claim ? how does he leads the affairs of the Ummah from inside the cave ? Since the whole world is dependent upon his existence, it is extremely crucial to know how does he operates and what has he done for the Ummah in the last 1200 years of their struggle (both external as well as internal) ?))


Notice the question is "How does he lead if he is hidden and what has he accomplished as leader?"


I wish to comment on every post he receives as a reply for this.


First post by "S.M.H.A." he says:


((This discussion requires a proper and clear understanding of the Last Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp] ,Tawheed/Tawhid. and the concept of  Imamate, acknowledgement of the First Imam, Amir ul Momineen Imam ul Mutaqeen Ali ibn Abi Talib[as].))


You know for a fact there's gonna be a lot of nonsense if a simple question can't be answered from the first post and you are told that you need some form of mystical understanding to get your answer.


For example, if Muslims were asked "How did the Prophet (saw) lead" or "How did abu Ja`far al-Mansour lead" we can give clear understandable answers and even dive into intricate details.


Anyway, let's see the next response by their admin "Qa'im",


His post is the longest post so let's break it down.


((As for your point on his lengthy life, similar beliefs are also common among Sunnis.))


He begins with examples about al-Khidr (as) and Ilyas (as) and their long lives, notice this isn't the answer, no one asked him for a precedent of a person who lived long, nor were these people "leaders" or tasked with duties of leadership. (I don't believe they're alive)


((As for his guidance, Islam is not a naturalistic religion for me to point to an observable and material achievement of the Hidden Imam.))


This shows that they have nothing to offer us, but judging from the length of the post it seems this member will give it a try. Still notice that he says he can't show anything "observable", maybe the 12th man's achievements are hidden just like he is (laughs)


((Otherwise, people would just turn around and ask for material evidence on how our God has guided us.))


Oh yes, because the Imam is like God, I forgot (sarcasm).


This sounds like an escape.


((Rather, to answer these questions, we have to return to Islamic metaphysics and cosmology.))


Yep there you go, and I doubt it's going to convince anybody.


((A major principle of Shiism is the existence of a divine guide that acts as a channel between God's mercy and the world. This guide must be, by definition, the best of human beings present in the world in order to represent Allah. His guidance comes in both overt and covert ways. A speaking guide is a reference for questions and a community leader, but this is not enough, because he can still be separated from other people in time and space. If an Imam were simply an expert scholar, then he would not be able to reach all humans beings to guide them. Imprisoning him (which happened to many of the Imams) would severely hinder his abilities.))


So the Imam functions as an electric plug? You plug him into the world and then God's mercy can reach us? Sounds baseless to me.


The second part shows how useless your infallibility is, as people had to rely on word of mouth to learn the teachings of the infallible up until this point. We've been separated from these Imams since forever now.


As for the very last sentence, I disagree. I don't think it would hinder his abilities, rather your 12th imam is more useless than your previous Imams in fulfilling their divine missions since they at least were available and were sought after by their followers and they transmitted valuable knowledge, their presence alone was a comfort for their followers since no one could cast doubt on their existence at least.


((We know from the stories of Hud, Salih, Lut, Shu`ayb, and Nuh, that these great men stood between their communities and God. They simultaneously warned their communities while giving them respite by being in their presence. Once they were forced to leave their community, their community was destroyed. Likewise, Allah promised not to destroy the Arabs while the Prophet Muhammad (s) was in their midst, as the Quran says, "But God would not punish them while you [Prophet] were in their midst, nor would He punish them so long as they sought forgiveness."))


Except that their people knew of their existence, imagine if most of Lut's (as) people had never heard of him while the rest were unsure he existed or not. I add, there is no concept in Islam that if a messenger/prophet is not present in a location, then that location would be destroyed, otherwise half the planet would be destroyed by now. Furthermore, the verse says that Allah would not punish if there were people who worshiped and sought His forgiveness, so when the Prophet (saw) left Makkah, the minority of Muslims in it kept asking for forgiveness and it was never punished until they left. (Their punishment was the conquest of Makkah).


So now in which city does this 12th Imam of yours reside? If he's in Beirut then the rest of the planet except Beirut must be punished and so on and so forth, but that isn't happening and we know there's people asking for Allah's forgiveness and mentioning Him 24/7 thanks to Rasul-Allah's (saw) effort and sacrifice.


((Their presence keeps the world afloat, because Allah withholds His punishment whilst he is in our midst. Thus, an Imam, public or hidden, is necessary in this sense.))


No he's not, Allah never said he keeps a man present among believers just so that Allah does not punish them, Allah can punish at any time, in fact Allah can just tell His prophet to leave an area so that He may punish it. The verse above spoke of the Kouffar not of the Muslims, they incurred Allah's wrath by their treatment of his prophet so He told us that the only reason He does not punish them is because the prophet (saw) and believers were among them. Secondly, the people you mentioned (Muhammad (saw), Nuh (as), Salih (as) etc...) these are all prophets, their job is to reveal the religion correct? Maybe this is why Allah won't punish the people when they're around as then who would reveal the religion if the prophets died? But in your case we're not talking about prophets but just leader(Imams), where does Allah say he won't punish us as long as we have leaders?


Today, we see people being punished in Iraq and Syria, where's your Imam? His presence surely changed nothing in this equation.


Notice dear reader that so far the question has not been answered, HOW DOES HE RULE WHILE HIDDEN AND WHAT'S HIS ACCOMPLISHMENT AS LEADER?


All this guy is doing is telling us of the benefit of his existence, nothing about his rule or accomplishments.


((Furthermore, being the best of humans, the Imam's position with God is closer than any living person. He is able to pray for us and account for our shortcomings, and pray for the respite of the disbelievers.))


Irrelevant and you guys believe the dead prophets and imams do the same while in their graves so who needs this 12th one.


((Also, recognition of the Imam is necessary, or else we will die the death of jahiliyya. This is not about just knowing the name and biography of the Imam. It is about associating with him, and disassociating from all people and things who he would be averse to.))


How about recognizing Allah and not associating partners with Him and disassociating from all people and things He would be averse to? Sounds similar doesn't it? So your 12th imam fails to be useful here as well.


((It is also about recognizing the reality that the Imam allows us to better understand Allah's wisdom, Allah's mercy, Allah's justice, etc. Our allegiances are to remain with God and His representative, rather than with our fallible systems and leaders.))


How does your Imam do this? I haven't seen him teach anyone about these matters. When he comes out of hiding and starts teaching us let me know so I may benefit from his knowledge.


As for your allegiances, how about keeping them with Allah and his representative prophet Muhammad (saw)? Sounds the same doesn't it? 12th Imam fails to be useful again. (Why'd you guys give allegiance to fallible politicians and leaders in Iran? That's disrespectful if the rightful leader is in existence, who even told you to appoint Khomayni? Only Allah appoints leaders not us... right?)


((The ultimate reason for occultation is something that will only and ultimately be known upon the Saviour's return))


Your leaders and thinkers, al-Mufid, al-Murtada and al-Tusi said there's no other reason than fear of death.


((That being said, why wouldn't he go into occultation if every one of his predecessors was killed, and many were imprisoned?))


Why didn't they go into occultation?


((Occultation is a means to escape imminent death while remaining in a position to guide.))


Except we asked you how he's leading and guiding and what's his accomplishment and got no answer. Maybe he escaped death but it doesn't appear that he's doing anything.


((We (Muslims) killed all of the Imams, and so we have lost the right to the luxury of having an apparent Imam.))


How does this hidden leader lead us and what are his accomplishments?


((The occultation is also a test and a lesson for the Shi`a, according to many hadiths. It is here to refine us and separate the hypocrites from the sincere. The tribulations of the era of hayra and ghayba are so intense that it will refine the Shi`a until none are left except those whom the tribulations brought closer to Allah and His vicegerent. Those who are left at the end of the occultation are those who are strongest in faith; stronger than the companions of all prophets and all Imams. His revolution cannot be successful without them - you cannot separate an Imam from his true Shia - no Shia, no Imam. Occultation is also a lesson that the effect of God is often unseen, covert, discreet. A sun behind clouds. It's also a means by which we who get together for the purpose of knowledge can better appreciate an apparent Imam, long for his return and know that we cannot reach any solid conclusions without him.))


Finally we hear the sun and clouds excuse, not a very good one, refuted here


All of this is filler content Mr.Hashwiyyah, you didn't answer the questions, what you wrote is useless to us just like your 12th Imam is useless to us. I can say the ending of prophet-hood and the fact that our Prophet (saw) did not appoint a successor is a test from God to see how we will handle ourselves, what's your response then? It's ok to test here but not ok to test there?


SC development team guy called "Chaotic Muslem" writes a bunch of random ideas ending with this:


((Despite the attack on Islam and the distortion of the modern Ummawis, we shall not abandon hs ways and the ways of his forefathers.


That's how he leads the Ummah. ))


That's not a mechanism of leading, you're telling me you're sticking to the way of his fathers, that's great but how does HE LEAD WHILE HIDDEN AND WHAT ARE HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS!?


SC member "mahdi servant.01" writes:


((Clearly we do not mean the leading in a sense you said and how one should believe so!! if the world has been led by him we would not have such problems and injustice across the world.


I think you Sunni also do believe and long for the coming of the grandson of prophet who will lead the world and free us form injustice.


how we could believe in what you said and Imam mahdi himself has directed us to the scholars whenever we had questions about the religion.


mam Mahdi (af) says : for the incidents that occur, refer to the narrators of our words for they are my proofing for you and im am the proofing for Allah swt.))


You telling me that the final guy said "Bye, bye, if you need anything just go to the scholars" then went into hiding? How useless is that? That means you affirm that he isn't leading and that he isn't doing anything.


He didn't even compile a book for you guys to follow, the least he could have done is write you guys a book and say "Follow its teachings" and that's the end of that, he doesn't need to show his face again but at least he contributed to something, but he didn't even do anything, Kulayni and Saduq themselves had to collect whatever junk they found (most of which is self-contradicting and weak).


((We are given Quran & explanations of Quran through those who are aware of it - I mean prophet &Imams- and prophet has assured us that as long as you follow these you will not go astray.))


That means Qur'an and Hadith are sufficient, no need for the 12th guy. Turns out you guys don't have a chain for the Qur'anic recitation, you rely on Ahlul-Sunnah for that and your books of Tafseer are un-usable, Qummi's Tafseer is rejected and `Ayyashi has no chains, so you have no Qur'an or Tafseer, enjoy.


SC member "neverforgotten313" says:


((the Imam is walking around people , i have seen the Imam many times in dreams helping people when they dont even know it ))


Well excuse me if you've seen him in your dreams! LOL I've also seen the messenger (saw) say that Shia are wrong ... in my dreams.


((now when it comes to the people he helps, he dosnt just help personally anyone, he helps those who are deserving of help, those who have fallen behind or are failing behind))


Ah so he only helps VIPs. He helps those who are deserving of help right? What is he, a charity organization? The Red Crescent and UNESCO Imam? I have a nephew who needs help in his math homework, maybe we should contact your 12th Imam, seems he has a lot of free time on his hands.


SC admin "Qa'im" writes again:


((The Ahl al-Bayt taught us that there was another occultation sometime between Jesus and the Prophet Muhammad (s).))


Never heard of him nor did our Prophet (saw) mention him or benefit from him nor did `Isa (as) mention him. Keep this other occluded individual as a trophy, somebody claimed the same here and we refuted.


Now we move on to SC member "narsis" who writes a big but useless thing, here's why he thinks his 12th Imam is useful.



((1- The upholding of clear signs and proof... they may, under fear of harm, injury or deaths hide themselves from the public gaze and may carry on their mission privately))


We asked how does he do this and what's the evidence? We got no reply from you guys, just claiming that he's guiding people in private is not an answer.


((2- Channels and mediators between us and Allah's (swt) grace and mercy... We (the imams) are the means of the safekeeping of this world, we are the reason for the skies not collapsing onto the earth))


We already discussed this claim that everything will collapse without the presence of an Imam, I learned about Allah from his prophet (saw) and his book, I can reach out to Allah at any point without the help of any saints.


((3- Making use of Imam Mahdi’s existence (aj) by the people... The same way people benefit from the sun when it is behind the clouds))


Dude, please no more of this sun cloud business. It sounds dumb and un-intelligent.


((4- His aid and inspiration regarding scientific and spiritual matters which only belongs to the believers...His Excellency pays great attention to the believers and Shia and prevents many calamities and disasters from taking place for them. He also helps those who have the capacity to reach higher levels of spirituality [sometimes with them knowing it, and sometimes not]. Imam Mahdi (aj) says: “We never forget you and it is because of us that Allah (swt) averts dangers [that threaten you].”))

You're just repeating yourself, you already wrote above that he guides and averts calamities, both of which are baseless claims with no evidence.
We asked how does he lead the nation while hidden and what are his accomplishments as leader!? What's wrong with you people?
SC member "shiaman14" writes:
((its very similar to how Shaitan decieves everyone while being hidden. Imam Mahdi guides the believers while being in occultation.))


I like how you liken your Imam to the devil, very fancy. However, the devil is a hidden being of fire who whispers thoughts into the heart of men, are you telling me your 12th Imam is invisible and whispers his thoughts into my heart? What the hell is he? That's not human!

That's the last post and we learn so far that the 12th Imam operates like the devil?


I don't know if the brother can read this post of mine but I feel sorry for the answers he has to deal with.



« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 08:41:31 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Re: SC thread: How does the 12th Imam lead the Ummah?
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2016, 10:11:35 AM »
LOL :D
Typical Shiasm.
What a funny religion this is !!!

al-Habib

Re: SC thread: How does the 12th Imam lead the Ummah?
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2016, 03:29:17 PM »
The thing that I always found interesting about Tashayyu' is that the existence of a hidden Imam is at variance with their concept of Imamah.

When you ask a Shi'ee, "Why do we need Imamah?"

They respond, "Because we need an infallible leader at all times in order to lead the Ummah so that we never go astray."

The rational response to this is, "Then why is your Imam hidden?"

I've yet to see the reconciliation of Ghaybah and the imminent NEED for an infallible guide by Shi'ees.

al-kulayni

Re: SC thread: How does the 12th Imam lead the Ummah?
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2016, 04:04:35 PM »
Don't you know that he's like the sun behind the clouds ? http://www.al-islam.org/articles/sun-behind-clouds-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi  ;D ;D ;D

al-Habib

Re: SC thread: How does the 12th Imam lead the Ummah?
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2016, 04:55:50 PM »
Yeah lets cover up the entire sky with clouds for 1000+ years and see what happens haha

Hani

Re: SC thread: How does the 12th Imam lead the Ummah?
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2016, 09:48:42 PM »
Listen to this latest one by "mahdi servant.01"

((the concept of ijtihad is always accepted in Shariah. because of which you see even when people was living with Imam, he was sending some of his great students far away from Madinah to give Fatwan based on Imam's teachings that would vary from what other students would say, meanwhile both Fatwa should be considered as proof for those seeking the Fatwa. the deference is that when Imam is present students could refer to Imam to have their differences solved by the Imam's view on that.))

He says, the students of the Imams may give different Fatwas based on his teachings (Based on their Ijtihad), and that for the followers both opinions are binding. Doesn't this resemble following the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) and the various opinions of the scholars? Then he says they can return to the Imam in times of dispute, I say this is unheard of since the past 1,200 years.

عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

al-Habib

Re: SC thread: How does the 12th Imam lead the Ummah?
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2016, 10:22:29 PM »
Exactly.  When you show them fatawa given by shaykhayn or any other sahaba on a given issue they reply, "We don't follow their interpretation, we follow infallibles". 

None of their answers to the question in the SC post are acceptable either.  The role of a leader (imam) is specific and the need for one is apparently critical.  This fact is absolutely unreconcilable with the concept of ghaybah.

Shi'ees please comment your thoughts...

Rationalist

Re: SC thread: How does the 12th Imam lead the Ummah?
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2016, 12:59:05 AM »
Yeah lets cover up the entire sky with clouds for 1000+ years and see what happens haha
There is a 12er Shia book on Tawhid by Mufaddal where he attributes a narration to Imam Jafar. In that book, Imam Jafar discusses how if the Sunlight is not present it would provide great harm to mankind.

MuslimAnswers

Re: SC thread: How does the 12th Imam lead the Ummah?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2016, 10:13:18 AM »
Listen to this latest one by "mahdi servant.01"

((the concept of ijtihad is always accepted in Shariah. because of which you see even when people was living with Imam, he was sending some of his great students far away from Madinah to give Fatwan based on Imam's teachings that would vary from what other students would say, meanwhile both Fatwa should be considered as proof for those seeking the Fatwa. the deference is that when Imam is present students could refer to Imam to have their differences solved by the Imam's view on that.))

He says, the students of the Imams may give different Fatwas based on his teachings (Based on their Ijtihad), and that for the followers both opinions are binding. Doesn't this resemble following the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) and the various opinions of the scholars? Then he says they can return to the Imam in times of dispute, I say this is unheard of since the past 1,200 years.


I do not have the link of the article, but one clerical representative of Sistani in an interview a few years ago was admitting that there were serious differences among the top Marjaiyah about how to handle the US invasion, and that ultimately it was only the Imam Mahdi who could give a decisive reply. Well, we know how that is turning out for all in what is now called 'Iraq'.

Hani

Re: SC thread: How does the 12th Imam lead the Ummah?
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2016, 01:29:01 PM »
Unless by Mahdi they mean their Lord Khaminai.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

MuslimK

  • *****
  • Total likes: 255
  • +19/-0
  • یا مقلب القلوب ثبت قلبی علی دینک
    • Refuting Shia allegations everywhere
  • Religion: Sunni
Re: SC thread: How does the 12th Imam lead the Ummah?
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2016, 04:19:15 PM »
Don't forget their grand scholar Asif Muhsini admits that their 12th Imam is of no use and benefits no one:

http://twelvershia.net/2013/08/26/the-shia-mahdi-useless/
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Hadrami

Re: SC thread: How does the 12th Imam lead the Ummah?
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2016, 08:31:51 PM »
Imamah has always been my favorite topic, because everytime shia try to make sense of it, they write comedy script

Just admit it shia, the Mahdi you have is the one leading Iran now, the other is just as real as Mickey Mouse

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
1 Replies
1708 Views
Last post June 24, 2015, 03:44:47 AM
by Rationalist
3 Replies
1444 Views
Last post August 07, 2015, 12:47:48 AM
by Ibn Yahya
53 Replies
8638 Views
Last post August 13, 2019, 08:22:14 AM
by Shia not Rafidi
0 Replies
1035 Views
Last post January 30, 2016, 07:20:34 PM
by Rationalist