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Hadith on the 12 caliphs...

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Hadith on the 12 caliphs...
« on: August 03, 2017, 08:18:23 PM »
Salam akhi, please i need an answer akhis. Im discussing about the Hadith on the 12 caliphs.  Is this authentic (I'll post the Hadith and source in the end)? A shi'ī I'm discussing with right now asked me to list the sunni view on who the 12 caliph hadiths are referring to. I included Yazid into who the Hadith was referring to. He claims according to this Hadith Yazid can't be included because a Zalim can not be a ruler and that the twelve will rule justly. Is this Hadith even referring to the 12 caliph Hadith ? Hadith: "Anas (ra) said: the messenger (SAW) said: "The imams are from quraish, if they ruled they would set justice, if they promised they would fulfill it, if they were asked for pardon they would be merciful". Sunni source; Musnad Abi Yal'a Volume 6 page 321. Footnote: this chain is authentic (he didn't cite who authenticated it).


2) Also, and also this Hadith from Jabir. he's giving me some weird explanation of his like: "If your answer is the 12 caliphs of yours who died 1200 years ago, your Islam ended 1200 years ago according to this Hadith in Sahih Muslim". Here's the Hadith he cited: "I wrote (a letter) to Jabir b. Samura and sent it to him through my servant Nafi', asking him to inform me of something he had heard from the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). He wrote to me (in reply): I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say on Friday evening, the day on which al-Aslami was stoned to death (for committing adultery): The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour has been established, or you have been ruled over by twelve Caliphs, all of them being from the Quraish. also heard him say: A small force of the Muslims will capture the white palace, the police of the Persian Emperor or his descendants. I also heard him say: Before the Day of Judgment there will appear (a number of) impostors. You are to guard against them. I also heard him say: When God grants wealth to any one of you, he should first spend it on himself and his family (and then give it in charity to the poor). I heard him (also) say: I will be your forerunner at the Cistern (expecting your arrival)".


Really looking forward to your responses.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 07:18:10 AM by Ahmed »

Rationalist

Re: Hadith on the 12 caliphs...
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2017, 12:20:12 AM »
Its not mutawatir, and in reality the Imams the 12er Shia call the 12 they themselves never told the Ummah they are number so and so Imam. In the 12er Shia view only a select few knew about the 12 Imams supposedly being the 12.

The hadith might be sahih then again so is the hadith that Abu Talib is non-Muslim. The reality is we have scholars in the ummah which disagree with both Sahih hadith.

Don't waste your time trying to come up with the 12. Just tell the 12er Shia you don't believe in the 12, and the 12 he believes in never told the entire ummah they were the 12.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Hadith on the 12 caliphs...
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2017, 01:49:28 AM »
Salam akhi, please i need an answer akhis. Im discussing about the Hadith on the 12 caliphs.  Is this authentic (I'll post the Hadith and source in the end)? A shi'ī I'm discussing with right now asked me to list the sunni view on who the 12 caliph hadiths are referring to. I included Yazid into who the Hadith was referring to. He claims according to this Hadith Yazid can't be included because a Zalim can not be a ruler and that the twelve will rule justly. Is this Hadith even referring to the 12 caliph Hadith ? Hadith: "Anas (ra) said: the messenger (SAW) said: "The imams are from quraish, if they ruled they would set justice, if they promised they would fulfill it, if they were asked for pardon they would be merciful". Sunni source; Musnad Abi Yal'a Volume 6 page 321. Footnote: this chain is authentic (he didn't cite who authenticated it).


2) Also, and also this Hadith from Jabir. he's giving me some weird explanation of his like: "If your answer is the 12 caliphs of yours who died 1200 years ago, your Islam ended 1200 years ago according to this Hadith in Sahih Muslim". Here's the Hadith he cited: "I wrote (a letter) to Jabir b. Samura and sent it to him through my servant Nafi', asking him to inform me of something he had heard from the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). He wrote to me (in reply): I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say on Friday evening, the day on which al-Aslami was stoned to death (for committing adultery): The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour has been established, or you have been ruled over by twelve Caliphs, all of them being from the Quraish. also heard him say: A small force of the Muslims will capture the white palace, the police of the Persian Emperor or his descendants. I also heard him say: Before the Day of Judgment there will appear (a number of) impostors. You are to guard against them. I also heard him say: When God grants wealth to any one of you, he should first spend it on himself and his family (and then give it in charity to the poor). I heard him (also) say: I will be your forerunner at the Cistern (expecting your arrival)".

Really looking forward to your responses.

Wa'alaikumussalam,

Brother Ahmed, I agree with brother Rationalist that you shouldn't waste your time trying to find out who the 12 Caliphs are. Even our big tradional scholars differred on that.

What you should respond to him is quite simple actually and I've used it whenever a Twelvers asking me that with no answer. Ask him these 2 questions:

1. Were we asked by Prophet (saw) to know who these 12 Caliphs are? If yes, show us where in the hadith that Prophet (saw) commanding us to know who exactly these 12 Caliphs are.

2. Does my iman become deficient by not knowing these 12 Caliphs? If yes, show me where in the hadith that Prophet (saw) warned people if they do not know these 12 Caliphs, their iman will be greatly compromised and will be thrown to Jahannam due to that.

Brother, the hadith is just about a sign before the coming of qiyamah. That's all. Nothing about knowing, let alone following the 12 Caliphs.

Farid

Re: Hadith on the 12 caliphs...
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2017, 08:50:44 AM »
Quote
Salam akhi, please i need an answer akhis. Im discussing about the Hadith on the 12 caliphs.  Is this authentic (I'll post the Hadith and source in the end)? A shi'ī I'm discussing with right now asked me to list the sunni view on who the 12 caliph hadiths are referring to. I included Yazid into who the Hadith was referring to. He claims according to this Hadith Yazid can't be included because a Zalim can not be a ruler and that the twelve will rule justly. Is this Hadith even referring to the 12 caliph Hadith ? Hadith: "Anas (ra) said: the messenger (SAW) said: "The imams are from quraish, if they ruled they would set justice, if they promised they would fulfill it, if they were asked for pardon they would be merciful". Sunni source; Musnad Abi Yal'a Volume 6 page 321. Footnote: this chain is authentic (he didn't cite who authenticated it).

Wa alaykum alsalam.

Welcome to the boards brother Ahmed.

There are two ways of understanding the hadith of:
الأئمة من قريش إذا حكموا عدلوا

It could mean that they are always righteous.
It could also mean that they are Imam IF they are righteous.

The term إذا could cause both meanings.

However, if we go to other sources we find greater clarity for this narration. For example, in Mu'jam Abi Ya'la (158) (not his Musnad), we find the exact same chain, but instead, it says:
الأئمة من قريش ما حكموا فعدلوا...

Meaning: They Imams are from Quraish AS LONG AS THEY rule and set justice...

This is supported by the narration in Musnad Abi Dawud Al-Tayalisi which includes an addition that says that those that are not righteous will be punished and cursed.

In other words, this is not evidence for Shiasm, since they believe in infallibility of the Imams.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 08:51:55 AM by Farid »

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Hadith on the 12 caliphs...
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2017, 12:05:59 PM »
If it was referring to 12 Imams of ahle bayt then why would he SAW say from quraysh rather than say from his ahle bayt?

One important thing you have to bare in mind is that there were many shia sects which were based on different numbers of Imams. It just so happens that some shia who believed in hasan al askari being the 11th in line then made up the story of his fictional son as the 12th imam but this person never even existed.
Then then twisted the meaning of the 12 caliphs hadith to suit their bogus belief in a non existent 12th Imam.

Its easy to apply a prophecy and make the claim to that prophecy AFTER the prophecy is
made.

For example the prophet SAW prophecised the appearance of the mahdi & so many have claimed to be him afterwards.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Hadith on the 12 caliphs...
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2017, 02:38:56 PM »
Salam akhi, please i need an answer akhis. Im discussing about the Hadith on the 12 caliphs.  Is this authentic (I'll post the Hadith and source in the end)? A shi'ī I'm discussing with right now asked me to list the sunni view on who the 12 caliph hadiths are referring to. I included Yazid into who the Hadith was referring to. He claims according to this Hadith Yazid can't be included because a Zalim can not be a ruler and that the twelve will rule justly. Is this Hadith even referring to the 12 caliph Hadith ? Hadith: "Anas (ra) said: the messenger (SAW) said: "The imams are from quraish, if they ruled they would set justice, if they promised they would fulfill it, if they were asked for pardon they would be merciful". Sunni source; Musnad Abi Yal'a Volume 6 page 321. Footnote: this chain is authentic (he didn't cite who authenticated it).

Adding to what brother Farid said, I say that Prophet(saws) actually set an advice or warning for Imams, that they should rule justly and with righteousness, if they do the opposite, then they would be held responsible for it.

The Prophet added, “He who obeys me, obeys Allah, and he who disobeys me, disobeys Allah. He who obeys the Ameer, obeys me, and he who disobeys the Ameer, disobeys me. The Imam is like a shelter for whose safety the Muslims should fight and where they should seek protection. If the Imam orders people with righteousness and rules justly, then he will be rewarded for that, and if he does the opposite, he will be responsible for that.”( Sahi Bukhari Vol. 4, Book 52, Hadith 204).

Similarly,

Messenger of Allah(saws) said: "The Imam is like a shield whose orders should be obeyed when they (the Muslims) fight, and where they should seek protection. If he enjoins fear of Allah and behaves justly, then he will be rewarded, but if he enjoins otherwise, then it will be a burden (of sin) on him."[Sunan an-Nasa'i 4196; Sahih]


Quote
2) Also, and also this Hadith from Jabir. he's giving me some weird explanation of his like: "If your answer is the 12 caliphs of yours who died 1200 years ago, your Islam ended 1200 years ago according to this Hadith in Sahih Muslim". Here's the Hadith he cited: "I wrote (a letter) to Jabir b. Samura and sent it to him through my servant Nafi', asking him to inform me of something he had heard from the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). He wrote to me (in reply): I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say on Friday evening, the day on which al-Aslami was stoned to death (for committing adultery): The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour has been established, OR you have been ruled over by twelve Caliphs, all of them being from the Quraish. also heard him say: A small force of the Muslims will capture the white palace, the police of the Persian Emperor or his descendants. I also heard him say: Before the Day of Judgment there will appear (a number of) impostors. You are to guard against them. I also heard him say: When God grants wealth to any one of you, he should first spend it on himself and his family (and then give it in charity to the poor). I heard him (also) say: I will be your forerunner at the Cistern (expecting your arrival)".

It seems that a narrator got confused about two different reports of Prophet(saws). That is why he said "OR", he didn't say "AND".

{"The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour has been established, OR you have been ruled over by twelve Caliphs, all of them being from the Quraish}.

The two different reports are as follows from the SAME SAHABI Jabir bin Samura:

 It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura that the Prophet (ﷺ) said: This religion will continue to exist, and a group of people from the Muslims will continue to fight for its protection until the Hour is established. [Sahih Muslim 1922]

 It has been reported on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I went with my father to the Messenger of Allah (may peeace be upon him) and I heard him say: This religion would continue to remain powerful and dominant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then he added something which I couldn't catch on account of the noise of the people. I asked my father: What did he say? My father said: He has said that all of them will be from the Quraish.[Sahih Muslim 1821 f]

These are two different reports, which a sub narrator seems to have mixed, that is why he was confused and said this OR that. He didn't say this AND that, which would imply both must happen, rather he said this OR that, implying one of the two would occur.

As for the two different reports, then one says clearly that religion will continue to exist until the hour is established. Whereas the other report doesn't mentions about the hour being established, it just talks about Islam being powerful and dominant under the rule of those Imams.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Hadith on the 12 caliphs...
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2017, 02:49:57 PM »
Salam akhi,

Really looking forward to your responses.

Wa'alaikum salam,

Brother tell your friend that you don't believe that the Caliphate of rightly guided Caliphs didn't continue after 30 years of Prophet(saws). Nor was it in succession. See what he answers you.

Al-Nauman ibn Basheer told us: The Prophet PBUH said: ‘Prophethood will remain in you for as long as God decides for it to remain and then God will remove it when He decides to remove it. After Prophet hood, there will be a Caliphate on the style of prophethood and it will exist for as long as God decides for it to exist, then He will remove it when He decides to remove it. Then there will be a kingdom in which people will face trials and tribulations and it will continue to exist for as long as God decides for it to exist. Then He will remove it, when He decides to remove it. After this, there will be an oppressive kingdom and it will continue to exist for as long as God decides for it to exist. Then He will remove it, when He decides to remove it. Then there will once again be a rule on the style of prophet hood. After saying this, the Prophet (pbuh) was silent.’
source: Takhreej Mishat al Masabih #5306.
grading: SAHIH and famous narrated through many chains.

Safeenah (radiallaahu anhu), that the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) said:

خلافة النبوة ثلاثون سنة ثم يؤتي الله الملك من يشاء

The Prophetic khilaafah will last for thirty years. Then Allaah will give the dominion to whomever He wills. Reported by Abu Dawud and al-Haakim. Saheeh al-Jaami’ as-Sagheer (no. 3257) declared Saheeh by Imaam al-Albaani (rahimahullaah).

Also reported by Safeenah, the saying of the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam):

الخلافة بعدي في أمتي ثلاثون سنة ثم ملك بعد ذلك

The khilaafah after me in my Ummah will last for thirty years. Then there will be kingship after that. Reported in the Musnad Imaam Ahmad, by at-Tirmidhi, Musnad Abi Ya’laa, and Ibn Hibbaan. Saheeh al-Jaami’ as-Sagheer (no. 3341) declared Saheeh by Imaam al-Albaani (rahimahullaah).

Hadrami

Re: Hadith on the 12 caliphs...
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2017, 03:55:40 PM »

2) Also, and also this Hadith from Jabir. he's giving me some weird explanation of his like: "If your answer is the 12 caliphs of yours who died 1200 years ago, your Islam ended 1200 years ago according to this Hadith in Sahih Muslim".
That shia didnt realise that his argument fits shiaism. At first shia believe we have to have a divinely appointed leader to lead & guide us, but then the 11th imam didnt have a son which means their imamah belief in reality ended almost 1200 yr ago 😁
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 03:56:52 PM by Hadrami »


Link

Re: Hadith on the 12 caliphs...
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2017, 04:37:21 PM »
Salam

The Sunnah is coupled with the Quran. It's an elaboration and emphasizes on things in Quran.  The number Twelve is found in Quran as well.  The term Successor is found in Quran as well. The religion and how God deems it upheld and strong, is found therein as well.  The term "rule" or "excerise authority over" is found in Quran as well.

Quraysh is also found in Quran.  And there are other ahadith that emphasize people follow Quraysh for good or for bad.

The hadith is ultimately saying, God chose the leaders from Quraysh and it's Qurasyh who is followed by Arabs anyways. So if they follow them for evil, it has nothing to do with allegiance or non-allegiance to Quraysh, it is simple due to their own injustice. They cannot even use this as an excuse.

If anything, their respect of Quraysh should make them follow the Twelve Successors and Leaders from Quraysh.

They should be honored, that God has chosen the leaders from their tribe, but it was Quraysh who opposed the Prophet and than Ali after him and the Imams one by one.

Sad, really.  The Mahdi from the children of Fatima could of ruled the world by now and it would be God ruling, and it would be the leader from Quraish.

The reality is, despite God choosing the leaders from Quraish, they opposed the guidance and did their best to extinguish God's light.




« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 04:43:21 PM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

 

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