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The Noble Quranic Verse Which Doomed Shi’ite Concept Of Imamate.

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iceman

It doesn't doom Shia concept of Imamah in any way what so ever. Giving it your desired meaning and taste, it probably doesn't. Getting a bit late at my end. I will speak on it.

iceman

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. [Quran 4:59]"

Ok, so what's the purpose of this verse? What is the reason for it? To lay down the law of obedience towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh)? Obedience towards Allah and his Messenger (pbuh) is already in place, so what's new? What's different? Obedience towards the Ulul Amre.

So why didn't Allah just come out with what is new? Allah could have made it simple and straightforward by just saying;
"Oh those who have believed, obey those in authority among you.........." Why didn't Allah just come straight out with it?

Because if Allah did then the question would arise that how important is the obedience towards the Ulul Amre. To what extent should one show obedience towards the Ulul Amre. Just to prevent this disagreement from arising and just to avoid such a dispute taking place Allah began with himself, then his Messenger (pbuh) and

then he came out with the actual, main and new command that the obedience of the Ulul Amre is just as necessary and important as obedience towards me and my Messenger (pbuh).

iceman

Now lets take a look at the next bit.

"And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. [Quran 4:59]"

"AND IF YOU DISAGREE OVER ANYTHING"

And if you disagree over anything, about what? Regarding what? About the the new command, about the Ulul Amre. Who are they, then what? Then you refer it to Allah and his Messenger (pbuh). Because they have mentioned who exactly the Ulul Amre are.

Why did Allah remove rijs from certain people, and not only this but he also purified them to the state of purification. Why? What for? Just for the sake of it.? Because Allah was getting bored and he wanted something to do? Surely there is a reason and purpose to what ever Allah does.

If these people weren't being prepared and launched for the governance of the Muslim Ummah after the Messenger (pbuh) then what was the whole episode of Ta'theer exactly for.

iceman

Lets take a look at the United Kingdom, you have the British government and the British people, the public. They have and still honour the royal family but what did the Muslims do after the demise of the Prophet (pbuh) and how did they exactly treat the royal family.

You have Theresa may and the Queen. Who exactly is incharge and the head of the country? The Queen or Theresa may? The British government, who do they serve? The Queen and country. And what did the Muslims do after the Messenger (pbuh)? Well the Messenger (pbuh) did exactly point out, repeat and warn about the royal family (Ahlul Bayt) but did the Ummah adhere? NO, NOT AT ALL.

Hani

He ain't no king and there's no royal family, if anything his family will be punished twice as much as anybody for their sins. Also remember he said "Be responsible for my family" he didn't say "Obey their command and hand them political authority" the latter is Shia's exaggeration.
Husayn planned a revolution in secret with some leaders in Kufah and it was discovered and foiled by a tyrant ruler, yet you oppressive folks want to blame the whole nation for it. That's all you're good for, blaming others for political issues that took places hundreds of years ago.
Your above analysis of the verse is as doomed as your sect, you'll all turn atheist and leave Islam like your Iranian masters, I give your folks less than 100 years till you disappear off the map.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 08:11:39 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

MuslimAnswers

Your above analysis of the verse is as doomed as your sect, you'll all turn atheist and leave Islam like your Iranian masters, I give your folks less than 100 years till you disappear off the map.

Even if one sees many of their posts online about one issue, say the pro-Palestine cause however good that may be in principle, one sees their alliances with Marxists, the LGBTQIA+ crowd, and other anti-theistic concerns. This is also why a full "Anti-Sharia Cleric" like Imam Tawhidi has such a resonance with many of them, it is not a coincidence that hatred of the Ummah of Muhammad (ﷺ) leads to hatred of what Muhammad (ﷺ) brought.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Why did Allah remove rijs from certain people, and not only this but he also purified them to the state of purification. Why? What for? Just for the sake of it.? Because Allah was getting bored and he wanted something to do? Surely there is a reason and purpose to what ever Allah does.
Was rijs removed from Fatima(ra)? If yes. Then is she too one of the Ulil Amr? If no, then you invalidated your own question.

iceman

He ain't no king and there's no royal family, if anything his family will be punished twice as much as anybody for their sins. Also remember he said "Be responsible for my family" he didn't say "Obey their command and hand them political authority" the latter is Shia's exaggeration.
Husayn planned a revolution in secret with some leaders in Kufah and it was discovered and foiled by a tyrant ruler, yet you oppressive folks want to blame the whole nation for it. That's all you're good for, blaming others for political issues that took places hundreds of years ago.
Your above analysis of the verse is as doomed as your sect, you'll all turn atheist and leave Islam like your Iranian masters, I give your folks less than 100 years till you disappear off the map.

Welcome. It's nice of you to join us. I was expecting a discussion based on logic and reasoning but you seem to get personal, extremely personal. It seems like I touched an optical nerve. It's a shame that what the Prophet (pbuh) exactly said, most of it hasn't come to us and was kept away from the Ummah.

A question we need to ask ourselves is why was it left so late until the time and generation of Muslim and Bukhari to collect hadiths. The more the gap the lesser the accuracy and the chance of getting genuine and certain material.

What happened to these beloved companions who became rulers that they didn't bother to collect hadiths? I wonder what the reason was. He wasn't just a Prophet but also a king on and above all Messengers and Prophets.

He was 'syedul  Ambia e Wal Mursileen', Syed meaning king. And his family wasn't purified to the state of purification just coincidently or just for the sake of it but for a specific reason and purpose. And that was for the governance of the Ummah. And was better and more knowledgeable than them.

Husayn didn't plan a revolution in secret. Lets stick to the thread and subject. No one blames the Ummah for Husayn's horrific and brutal murder. It was the Islamic Caliphate at the time who were responsible.

If my above analysis is doomed then I don't see your analysis anywhere to challenge it. You'll give it about a hundred years? Well we've been around for a lot longer and that is 1400 years. And you very well known how we've been looked and treated since 1400 years. But despite everything we're still here.

iceman

Was rijs removed from Fatima(ra)? If yes. Then is she too one of the Ulil Amr? If no, then you invalidated your own question.

One step at a time. Answer/respond to this,

Why did Allah remove rijs from certain people, and not only this but he also purified them to the state of purification. Why? What for? Just for the sake of it.? Because Allah was getting bored and he wanted something to do? Surely there is a reason and purpose to what ever Allah does.

If these people weren't being prepared and launched for the governance of the Muslim Ummah after the Messenger (pbuh) then what was the whole episode of Ta'theer exactly for.

iceman

Re: The Noble Quranic Verse Which Doomed Shi’ite Concept Of Imamate.
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2018, 04:53:07 AM »
He ain't no king and there's no royal family, if anything his family will be punished twice as much as anybody for their sins. Also remember he said "Be responsible for my family" he didn't say "Obey their command and hand them political authority" the latter is Shia's exaggeration.
Husayn planned a revolution in secret with some leaders in Kufah and it was discovered and foiled by a tyrant ruler, yet you oppressive folks want to blame the whole nation for it. That's all you're good for, blaming others for political issues that took places hundreds of years ago.
Your above analysis of the verse is as doomed as your sect, you'll all turn atheist and leave Islam like your Iranian masters, I give your folks less than 100 years till you disappear off the map.

"you'll all turn atheist and leave Islam like your Iranian masters"

were Abu Hanifa's ancestors Iranians, fire worshippers?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: The Noble Quranic Verse Which Doomed Shi’ite Concept Of Imamate.
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2018, 06:50:27 AM »
One step at a time. Answer/respond to this,

Why did Allah remove rijs from certain people, and not only this but he also purified them to the state of purification. Why? What for? Just for the sake of it.? Because Allah was getting bored and he wanted something to do? Surely there is a reason and purpose to what ever Allah does.
Not sure but, there were others too who were purified and rijz was removed from them. May be they were being prepared to make Shura(consultation) after Prophet(saws).

إِذْ يُغَشِّيكُمُ النُّعَاسَ أَمَنَةً مِّنْهُ وَيُنَزِّلُ عَلَيْكُم مِّن السَّمَاءِ مَاءً لِّيُطَهِّرَكُم بِهِ وَيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمْ رِجْزَ الشَّيْطَانِ وَلِيَرْبِطَ عَلَى قُلُوبِكُمْ وَيُثَبِّتَ بِهِ الْأَقْدَامَ

When He caused calm to fall on you as a security from Him and sent down upon you water from the cloud that He might thereby purify you, and take away from you the uncleanness of the Shaitan, and that He might fortify your hearts and steady (your) footsteps thereby.(8:11).


If these people weren't being prepared and launched for the governance of the Muslim Ummah after the Messenger (pbuh) then what was the whole episode of Ta'theer exactly for.
Fatima(ra) was also purified, and she couldn't govern or rule. Which nullifies your argument.

Mythbuster1

Re: The Noble Quranic Verse Which Doomed Shi’ite Concept Of Imamate.
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2018, 03:46:59 PM »
It seems like I touched an optical nerve.

Lol that just kills it off completely .......”touched an optical nerve”.....no such saying, is fasting effecting your brain? It is by the looks of your below par responses and especially this optical nerve one.

iceman

Re: The Noble Quranic Verse Which Doomed Shi’ite Concept Of Imamate.
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2018, 07:39:21 PM »
Lol that just kills it off completely .......”touched an optical nerve”.....no such saying, is fasting effecting your brain? It is by the looks of your below par responses and especially this optical nerve one.

Anything useful, positive and constructive that you can say and put forward? Oh, probably there's no such thing from you.☺

iceman

Re: The Noble Quranic Verse Which Doomed Shi’ite Concept Of Imamate.
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2018, 07:43:50 PM »
Not sure but, there were others too who were purified and rijz was removed from them. May be they were being prepared to make Shura(consultation) after Prophet(saws).

إِذْ يُغَشِّيكُمُ النُّعَاسَ أَمَنَةً مِّنْهُ وَيُنَزِّلُ عَلَيْكُم مِّن السَّمَاءِ مَاءً لِّيُطَهِّرَكُم بِهِ وَيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمْ رِجْزَ الشَّيْطَانِ وَلِيَرْبِطَ عَلَى قُلُوبِكُمْ وَيُثَبِّتَ بِهِ الْأَقْدَامَ

When He caused calm to fall on you as a security from Him and sent down upon you water from the cloud that He might thereby purify you, and take away from you the uncleanness of the Shaitan, and that He might fortify your hearts and steady (your) footsteps thereby.(8:11).

Fatima(ra) was also purified, and she couldn't govern or rule. Which nullifies your argument.

"Not sure but"

Why not go and do some research and look into things and then talk. Leave the ifs and buts out of it.

"Fatima(ra) was also purified, and she couldn't govern or rule. Which nullifies your argument"

Why couldn't she govern or rule, what makes you say this?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: The Noble Quranic Verse Which Doomed Shi’ite Concept Of Imamate.
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2018, 08:21:58 PM »
"Not sure but"
Are you sure why Sahaba were purified and rijz was removed from them ?

 
"Fatima(ra) was also purified, and she couldn't govern or rule. Which nullifies your argument"

Why couldn't she govern or rule, what makes you say this?

Women aren’t supposed to be rulers as per Islamic Shariah. Aren’t you aware of these basics? That’s why I guess you made such ignoramous arguments.

iceman

Re: The Noble Quranic Verse Which Doomed Shi’ite Concept Of Imamate.
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2018, 09:40:59 PM »
Are you sure why Sahaba were purified and rijz was removed from them ?

 
Women aren’t supposed to be rulers as per Islamic Shariah. Aren’t you aware of these basics? That’s why I guess you made such ignoramous arguments.

"Are you sure why Sahaba were purified and rijz was removed from them ?"

Were Sahaba purified and was rijs removed from them? Please do enlighten me.

"Women aren’t supposed to be rulers as per Islamic Shariah. Aren’t you aware of these basics?"

Please do enlighten me of these basics. Being incharge and being a role model doesn't mean you have to be a ruler.

Aisha entered the political arena, I'm sure you're aware of that despite direct orders from Allah for the wives to "REMAIN IN YOUR HOMES".

But this is a different argument. Lets leave that for another day and try to keep on topic.

iceman

Re: The Noble Quranic Verse Which Doomed Shi’ite Concept Of Imamate.
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2018, 09:52:46 PM »
Here's another argument on topic and according to the thread. The verses;

""O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. "O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. AnThat is the best [way] and best in result. [Quran 4:59]"

How do we know these verses were revealed together?

This is fine and makes sense in being together and connected;

""O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you"

But how do we exactly know that the following verse is connected to the first. What, by just being there?

After all the copy of the Qur'an we have with us today is not anywhere near and close to the way it was revealed.

The copy of the Qur'an we have with us who was it collected and assembled by.

Mythbuster1

Re: The Noble Quranic Verse Which Doomed Shi’ite Concept Of Imamate.
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2018, 11:15:50 PM »
Anything useful, positive and constructive that you can say and put forward? Oh, probably there's no such thing from you.☺

I must have hit a RAW nerve lol 😂

iceman

Re: The Noble Quranic Verse Which Doomed Shi’ite Concept Of Imamate.
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2018, 11:19:31 PM »
I must have hit a RAW nerve lol 😂

Well you've definitely hit something. It could be a wall. Just check your head for bruising. Or you could have hit a post, get it, POST. What's life without a bit of laughter hey.😂
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 11:27:17 PM by iceman »

 

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