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The Awaited Mahdi

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Cherub786

The Awaited Mahdi
« on: October 27, 2018, 05:22:12 AM »
I want to discuss with anyone who is interested the reality of the promised Mahdi, including an analysis of both the Sunni and Shiite versions. I say that the Sunni concept of Mahdi is not only much more believable and sensible, current events in the Middle East definitely setting the stage for his appearance in the Hijaz very soon. On the other hand, the Shiite version of the Mahdi is so fantastic and illogical that no sane person can ever conceive that such a figure would ever appear in this world.
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muslim720

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2018, 09:02:33 PM »
They say he is awaiting the right time.  I wonder what plans he has and how differently he will behave compared to Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) who did nothing the Shias today would have wanted them to do.
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

iceman

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2018, 02:31:10 AM »
I want to discuss with anyone who is interested the reality of the promised Mahdi, including an analysis of both the Sunni and Shiite versions. I say that the Sunni concept of Mahdi is not only much more believable and sensible, current events in the Middle East definitely setting the stage for his appearance in the Hijaz very soon. On the other hand, the Shiite version of the Mahdi is so fantastic and illogical that no sane person can ever conceive that such a figure would ever appear in this world.

"I say that the Sunni concept of Mahdi is not only much more believable and sensible, current events in the Middle East definitely setting the stage for his appearance in the Hijaz very soon"

Please do tell me about this Sunni concept.

"On the other hand, the Shiite version of the Mahdi is so fantastic and illogical that no sane person can ever conceive that such a figure would ever appear in this world"

Please do enlighten me with this version as well.

iceman

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2018, 02:33:19 AM »
They say he is awaiting the right time.  I wonder what plans he has and how differently he will behave compared to Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) who did nothing the Shias today would have wanted them to do.

You're all good with words based on counter arguments.

"compared to Imam Ali (ra) and Imam Hassan (ra) who did nothing the Shias today would have wanted them to do"

And what is it that the Shias of today wanted them to do?

It's just say and then run on to the next from you. No explanation of your own saying. You definitely sound like one bitter and twisted individual.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2018, 02:41:23 AM by iceman »

Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2018, 05:20:26 AM »

Please do tell me about this Sunni concept.
In hadith for Sunnis are neither Mutawatir nor Sahih despite what some Sunni scholars said. At best the hadith are graded Hassan.

The Sunni Mahdi will not want to be Calipah. People will push him for it.
Sunni Mahdi will rule for 7 years minimum and 9 year maximum.
He will make peace agreement with Rum (possibly Russia).
He is not the last imam and his successor will be Al Qathani.
The hadith about Imam leading Prophet Isa (as) is not proven to be Mahdi. It can be another Imam.
He will be just ruler and will follow the Sunnah.
He will do ijtihad and bring his own school of thought.


This is the general Sunni concept.


Quote
Please do enlighten me with this version as well.
Here is the 12er Shia version.
He will abolish taqiyyah.
Bring the age of Rajah where all Imams and the Prophet (pbuh) will return.
Go to Abi Bakr, Umar and Ayesha's grave, resurrect them  and punish them.
Prophet Isa (as) will mainly return to pray behind him, and supposedly prove imamate is superior.
He will get rid of the Sunni madhabs.
He will fight  against the Zaydi Shia, and get rid of them.
In the Quran  Prophet Suliamaan (as) prayed that there shall be no kingdom like his. However, the 12er Shia say there is an exception for the 12th Imam.
He will receive Wahi  make judgement between people.

This trailer is a general idea how the Sunni see the 12er Shia version of the Mahdi.






Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2018, 08:22:18 AM »
The hadith about Imam leading Prophet Isa (as) is not proven to be Mahdi. It can be another Imam.

I researched on this matter and found that there are some Hadith which make it explicit that the Amir and Imam behind whom the Messiah عليه السلام shall pray is indeed the expected Mahdi عليه الرضوان:
مِنَّا الذي يُصَلِّي عيسى ابنُ مريمَ خلفَهُ
"He is from us [Ahl al-Bayt] behind whom Jesus son of Mary will pray"

Albani graded it authentic (Silsila as-Sahiha #2293)

see my blog post for more details Forbidden_Link/2018/11/promised-mahdi-is-about-to-come-out-any.html
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Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2018, 08:37:44 AM »
"I say that the Sunni concept of Mahdi is not only much more believable and sensible, current events in the Middle East definitely setting the stage for his appearance in the Hijaz very soon"

Please do tell me about this Sunni concept.

"On the other hand, the Shiite version of the Mahdi is so fantastic and illogical that no sane person can ever conceive that such a figure would ever appear in this world"

Please do enlighten me with this version as well.

The key difference between our and your conception of the expected Mahdi عليه السلام والرضوان is that we of course do not assign any supernatural abilities to him. The Shi'a have mythologized the Mahdi. This is because their mullas have a vested interest in there never coming any Mahdi to challenge their false authority over the masses. Therefore, they have mythologized the Mahdi to such an extent that it is obvious such a fictional character will never come.

We believe the Mahdi will be a human being who will be guided by Allah and he will come out and lead the Muslims as their Imam. According to my research, the Mahdi won't have any supernatural abilities, but he will be helped by Allah in conquering the Middle East. I think he will conquer all of Arabia, the Levant, Jerusalem and Constantinople (Istanbul). He will not necessarily be ruling over the entire globe, but only the Middle East as a great military and religious leader.

His main purpose will be to establish a government of justice and fairness. He will emerge during a time of oppression and tyranny (which is our own time). He will straighten out the crooked Arabs with the sword. He will distribute wealth equitably among the people.

From among his description, he will of course be a Fatimi, direct descendant of the Prophet (sall Allahu alayhi wasallam). He will have the same name as the Prophet (sall Allahu alayhi wasallam) - Muhammad or Ahmad - and his father's name will be Abd Allah. He will have a broad forehead and beautiful, prominent aquiline nose. At some point in the future, this young man will leave Medina for Mecca, seeking refuge in the sacred precinct of Masjid al-Haram. People will recognize him and give him the bay'a between the Rukn and the Maqam.

The tyrannical and un-Islamic regimes of that time will be threatened by his emergence. They will send armies against him, but one of those armies will be destroyed by a natural disaster while on route to the Masjid al-Haram in order to confront or capture him. This is one of the major signs of him being the real Mahdi.
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Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2018, 08:43:21 AM »
He will make peace agreement with Rum (possibly Russia).
What is the basis for this, if I may ask?

Quote
He is not the last imam and his successor will be Al Qathani.
ditto?

Quote
He will do ijtihad and bring his own school of thought.

Again, where have you derived this idea from?
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Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2018, 06:17:15 AM »
Before I answer these questions I want to make it clear that the Mahdi is not a pillar of aqeeda like it is for the 12ers. The Muslims who don't believe in the Mahdi can still be momins.


What is the basis for this, if I may ask?

عن سليمان بن حبيب، قال: سمعت أبا أمامة رضي الله عنه، يقول: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم: سيكون بينكم وبين الروم أربع هدن، تقوم الرابعة على يد رجل من أهل هرقل، يدوم سبع سنين. فقال له رجل من عبد القيس يقال له المستورد بن خيلان: يا رسول الله! مَن إمام الناس يومئذ؟ قال: من وُلد أربعين سنة كأن وجهه كوكب دري في خده الأيمن، خال أسود، عليه عباءتان قعوايتان كأنه من رجال بني إسرائيل، يملك عشرين سنة، يستخرج الكنوز ويفتح مدائن الشرك.

“Sulaymān ibn Habīb says that he heard Abū Umāmah (RA) narrate: The Messenger of Allāh (صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم) said: there will be peace between you and Rome four times and the fourth time the leader of the Romans will be a person belonging to the children of Heraclius. This ‘peace’ will last seven continuous years. A man from ‘Abd al-Qays, Mustawrid ibn Khaylān, asked the Messenger of Allāh (صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم): who will be the Imām of the Muslims at that time? He (صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم) replied: that person will be from (my) children and he will be forty years old. His face will be bright like a star and there will be a black beauty spot on his right cheek, and he will be dressed in two cotton gowns and it will seem as though he is exactly like one of the Children of Israel. He will rule for ten years, discover treasures from beneath the earth and conquer the cities ruled by the polytheists.”
(Tabarānī narrated it in al-Mu‘jam-ul-kabīr (8:101#7495), Musnad-ush-shāmiyyīn (2:410#1600); and Haythamī in Majma‘-uz-zawā’id (7:318,319).)

Quote
ditto?
Refer to the 40 hadith book on the Mahdi by Hafiz Abu Naeem Al Asbahny,

The 37th Hadith from the 40.
He will come after Tyrants
Qais Ibn Jābir narrates from his father, from his grandfather that the Messenger of Allah (peace and prayers be upon him and his family) said, “After me there will be caliphs, and [after the caliphs] emirs, and after the emirs [tyrant]4 kings. Then a man from my Household will rise who will fill the earth with justice after it will be beset with tyranny. Then, after him, the Qahtani will be made an Amir (Prince), and by Him Who sent me with the Truth, he (Qahtani) is not lesser (in terms of importance) than him (Mahdi)”


Here is the part of the series which covers this commentary.
&index=41

Quote
Again, where have you derived this idea from?

In the past Ahlul Bayt imams like Zayd bin Ali, Jafar bin Muhammad, Nafs-az-Zakiyah, Musa al Kazim etc followed their own school. They didn't follow any of the 4. In fact, the 4 Imams were their students.

Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2018, 06:18:25 AM »
I researched on this matter and found that there are some Hadith which make it explicit that the Amir and Imam behind whom the Messiah عليه السلام shall pray is indeed the expected Mahdi عليه الرضوان:
مِنَّا الذي يُصَلِّي عيسى ابنُ مريمَ خلفَهُ
"He is from us [Ahl al-Bayt] behind whom Jesus son of Mary will pray"

Albani graded it authentic (Silsila as-Sahiha #2293)

see my blog post for more details Forbidden_Link/2018/11/promised-mahdi-is-about-to-come-out-any.html

Only the 12er Shia restrict Ahul bayt Imamate to the 12. This Ahlul bayt here does not have be the Mahdi. It can be another Fatimid.

Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2018, 07:36:02 AM »
Only the 12er Shia restrict Ahul bayt Imamate to the 12. This Ahlul bayt here does not have be the Mahdi. It can be another Fatimid.


(Al-Manar al-Munif p.148
Original Hadith is from Musnad of al-Harith b. Abi Usama


يَنْزِلُ عيسى ابنُ مَرْيَمَ فيقولُ أميرُهُمُ المهديُّ تَعالَ صلِّ بنا فيقولُ لا, إنَّ بعضَهُم أَميرُ بعضٍ تَكْرُمَةُ الله لهذه الأمَّةِ
Jesus son of Mary will descend, so their Amir, the Mahdi, will say, “Come, lead us in prayer”. But he will say, “No, verily some of them are commander over some. Allah’s honor for this Umma.”

Albani graded it authentic (Silsila al-Sahiha 2236)
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Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2018, 08:36:24 AM »
In the past Ahlul Bayt imams like Zayd bin Ali, Jafar bin Muhammad, Nafs-az-Zakiyah, Musa al Kazim etc followed their own school. They didn't follow any of the 4. In fact, the 4 Imams were their students.

With all due respect, but this a weak argument. And with the exception of Imam Jafar al-Sadiq, I don't know if any other of the great Imams you mentioned were mujtahidin and started their own schools. I know that the Zaydis attribute their jurisprudence to Imam Zayd. The point is you didn't cite any actual proof that the promised Mahdi will be a mujtahid and start his own madhhab.
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iceman

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2018, 09:29:32 AM »
Before I answer these questions I want to make it clear that the Mahdi is not a pillar of aqeeda like it is for the 12ers. The Muslims who don't believe in the Mahdi can still be momins.


عن سليمان بن حبيب، قال: سمعت أبا أمامة رضي الله عنه، يقول: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم: سيكون بينكم وبين الروم أربع هدن، تقوم الرابعة على يد رجل من أهل هرقل، يدوم سبع سنين. فقال له رجل من عبد القيس يقال له المستورد بن خيلان: يا رسول الله! مَن إمام الناس يومئذ؟ قال: من وُلد أربعين سنة كأن وجهه كوكب دري في خده الأيمن، خال أسود، عليه عباءتان قعوايتان كأنه من رجال بني إسرائيل، يملك عشرين سنة، يستخرج الكنوز ويفتح مدائن الشرك.

“Sulaymān ibn Habīb says that he heard Abū Umāmah (RA) narrate: The Messenger of Allāh (صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم) said: there will be peace between you and Rome four times and the fourth time the leader of the Romans will be a person belonging to the children of Heraclius. This ‘peace’ will last seven continuous years. A man from ‘Abd al-Qays, Mustawrid ibn Khaylān, asked the Messenger of Allāh (صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم): who will be the Imām of the Muslims at that time? He (صلی اللہ علیہ وآلہ وسلم) replied: that person will be from (my) children and he will be forty years old. His face will be bright like a star and there will be a black beauty spot on his right cheek, and he will be dressed in two cotton gowns and it will seem as though he is exactly like one of the Children of Israel. He will rule for ten years, discover treasures from beneath the earth and conquer the cities ruled by the polytheists.”
(Tabarānī narrated it in al-Mu‘jam-ul-kabīr (8:101#7495), Musnad-ush-shāmiyyīn (2:410#1600); and Haythamī in Majma‘-uz-zawā’id (7:318,319).)
Refer to the 40 hadith book on the Mahdi by Hafiz Abu Naeem Al Asbahny,

The 37th Hadith from the 40.
He will come after Tyrants
Qais Ibn Jābir narrates from his father, from his grandfather that the Messenger of Allah (peace and prayers be upon him and his family) said, “After me there will be caliphs, and [after the caliphs] emirs, and after the emirs [tyrant]4 kings. Then a man from my Household will rise who will fill the earth with justice after it will be beset with tyranny. Then, after him, the Qahtani will be made an Amir (Prince), and by Him Who sent me with the Truth, he (Qahtani) is not lesser (in terms of importance) than him (Mahdi)”


Here is the part of the series which covers this commentary.
&index=41

In the past Ahlul Bayt imams like Zayd bin Ali, Jafar bin Muhammad, Nafs-az-Zakiyah, Musa al Kazim etc followed their own school. They didn't follow any of the 4. In fact, the 4 Imams were their students.

"Before I answer these questions I want to make it clear that the Mahdi is not a pillar of aqeeda like it is for the 12ers. The Muslims who don't believe in the Mahdi can still be momins"

What's the point about the whole concept of Mahdi then?

Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2018, 12:22:27 PM »
This Ahlul bayt here does not have be the Mahdi. It can be another Fatimid.

Just to add, the title "Mahdi" is not always necessary to understand who the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم is referring to. A lot of the Hadith which are generally understood to be in reference to the Mahdi do not have the word "Mahdi", for example:

يَلِي رَجُلٌ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يُوَاطِئُ اسْمُهُ اسْمِي
"A man is coming from my Ahl al-Bayt whose name matches my name"

لَوْ لَمْ يَبْقَ مِنَ الدَّهْرِ إِلاَّ يَوْمٌ لَبَعَثَ اللَّهُ رَجُلاً مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يَمْلأُهَا عَدْلاً كَمَا مُلِئَتْ جَوْرًا
"If nothing remained of time except a single day, Allah would raise up a man from my Ahl al-Bayt who will fill the land with fairness and justice as it was filled with oppression and tyranny"

Basically, whenever the Hadith speaks of a man coming in the future from the Ahl al-Bayt who will be an Imam, or whose name matches the Prophet's name, or who will fill the land with justice after it was full of oppression, it is speaking of the Mahdi.

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iceman

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2018, 12:43:24 PM »
"يَلِي رَجُلٌ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يُوَاطِئُ اسْمُهُ اسْمِي
"A man is coming from my Ahl al-Bayt whose name matches my name"

لَوْ لَمْ يَبْقَ مِنَ الدَّهْرِ إِلاَّ يَوْمٌ لَبَعَثَ اللَّهُ رَجُلاً مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يَمْلأُهَا عَدْلاً كَمَا مُلِئَتْ جَوْرًا
"If nothing remained of time except a single day, Allah would raise up a man from my Ahl al-Bayt who will fill the land with fairness and justice as it was filled with oppression and tyranny"

So one thing is clear then, he will be from the Ahle Baith.

Cherub786

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2018, 12:47:11 PM »

Refer to the 40 hadith book on the Mahdi by Hafiz Abu Naeem Al Asbahny,


That same text (Arbain of Abu Naeem) contains the 2 Hadith I already quoted which proves that the Messiah will pray behind the Mahdi. Refer to Hadith #38 and #39.
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Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2018, 05:35:22 PM »


What's the point about the whole concept of Mahdi then?

He is just  a reformer who will guide the Muslims to the Quran and Sunnah. He is similar to Imam Zayd bin Ali, Nafs az Zakiyah  since he will declare Caliphate. This is unlike Imam Jafar as Sadiq or Imam Ali Rida who did not respond to the calls for Caliphate.

In fact in the 12er Shia books Imam Baqer says Imam Muhammad al Hanifiyah is a Mahdi.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2018, 05:41:38 PM by Rationalist »

Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2018, 05:37:00 PM »
Just to add, the title "Mahdi" is not always necessary to understand who the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم is referring to. A lot of the Hadith which are generally understood to be in reference to the Mahdi do not have the word "Mahdi", for example:

يَلِي رَجُلٌ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يُوَاطِئُ اسْمُهُ اسْمِي
"A man is coming from my Ahl al-Bayt whose name matches my name"

لَوْ لَمْ يَبْقَ مِنَ الدَّهْرِ إِلاَّ يَوْمٌ لَبَعَثَ اللَّهُ رَجُلاً مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يَمْلأُهَا عَدْلاً كَمَا مُلِئَتْ جَوْرًا
"If nothing remained of time except a single day, Allah would raise up a man from my Ahl al-Bayt who will fill the land with fairness and justice as it was filled with oppression and tyranny"

Basically, whenever the Hadith speaks of a man coming in the future from the Ahl al-Bayt who will be an Imam, or whose name matches the Prophet's name, or who will fill the land with justice after it was full of oppression, it is speaking of the Mahdi.



Hadith does not say he is the only one coming from Ahlul Bayt. Most likely al Qathani after him and the Imams after will be from Ahlul Bayt as well.

Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2018, 05:39:53 PM »
That same text (Arbain of Abu Naeem) contains the 2 Hadith I already quoted which proves that the Messiah will pray behind the Mahdi. Refer to Hadith #38 and #39.

Some versions add Mahdi some do not. 38 does not but 39 does. There is commentary by the a Hanafi scholar who say Mahdi will not live in the era of Dajjal. Recall hadith says he will rule for 7 years and a max of 9.

Rationalist

Re: The Awaited Mahdi
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2018, 05:44:15 PM »
"يَلِي رَجُلٌ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يُوَاطِئُ اسْمُهُ اسْمِي
"A man is coming from my Ahl al-Bayt whose name matches my name"

لَوْ لَمْ يَبْقَ مِنَ الدَّهْرِ إِلاَّ يَوْمٌ لَبَعَثَ اللَّهُ رَجُلاً مِنْ أَهْلِ بَيْتِي يَمْلأُهَا عَدْلاً كَمَا مُلِئَتْ جَوْرًا
"If nothing remained of time except a single day, Allah would raise up a man from my Ahl al-Bayt who will fill the land with fairness and justice as it was filled with oppression and tyranny"

So one thing is clear then, he will be from the Ahle Baith.

I dont agree with the second hadith. How can one man full the entire earth with justice and fairness? Its beyond human capacity. Sunni books contain exaggerations too.

 

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