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The caliphate of abu Bakr (r.a)

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Muslim ar Rusi

The caliphate of abu Bakr (r.a)
« on: May 23, 2016, 05:54:32 PM »
Assalamu aleikum wa rahmatu Llahi wa barakatuhu ya ikhwati.

The rafidha have made invitation to debates regarding several questions. Yet none accepted it which gave them a lot of reasons to rejoice. These are those questions:


  How should the caliph be elected?  You claim that the Prophet peace be upon him didn't appoint a cahliph, and abu Bakr became one by the decision of shura of muslims. Tell us then why abu Bark didn't follow the Prophet's example and didn't let shura elect the new caliph?

 The election of caliph after period of Umar became quite different.He confined the right to determine it with six man. 

 If this issue should be solved by the concilium of muslims, then all muslims should participate. Why did Umar create a shura with six people in it?

We ask you why abu Bakr and Umar left a will while according to your opinion the Prophet peace be upon him and his family didn't do it? Why did abu Bakr and Umar didn't act in accordance with the sunna of the Prophet?


Could you brothers provide answers?
لا تعتقد دين الروافض إنهم أهل المحال وحزبة الشيطان

not a daish follower

Rationalist

Re: The caliphate of abu Bakr (r.a)
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2016, 06:40:21 PM »
The 12ers have some valid points, and they are right as  we don't believe the way Abi Bakr and Umar became Calipah is  part of the Sunnah. On the contrary, this does not prove that Ali was a divinely appointed Calipah, or that there are 12 divinely appointed imams in the Imams.

Optimus Prime

Re: The caliphate of abu Bakr (r.a)
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2016, 07:30:08 PM »
The 12ers have some valid points, and they are right as  we don't believe the way Abi Bakr and Umar became Calipah is  part of the Sunnah. On the contrary, this does not prove that Ali was a divinely appointed Calipah, or that there are 12 divinely appointed imams in the Imams.

Irrational claims by someone who claims to be a Rationalist.

Please provide evidence that Abu Bakr (RA), and Umar'a (RA) appointment to Caliphate was not in accordance with the Sunnah.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 07:31:41 PM by Imam Ali »

Rationalist

Re: The caliphate of abu Bakr (r.a)
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2016, 09:43:57 PM »

Irrational claims by someone who claims to be a Rationalist.

Please provide evidence that Abu Bakr (RA), and Umar'a (RA) appointment to Caliphate was not in accordance with the Sunnah.
They are not divinely appointed. Period!

Optimus Prime

Re: The caliphate of abu Bakr (r.a)
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2016, 12:48:50 AM »

Irrational claims by someone who claims to be a Rationalist.

Please provide evidence that Abu Bakr (RA), and Umar'a (RA) appointment to Caliphate was not in accordance with the Sunnah.
They are not divinely appointed. Period!

No one said they were, but most of the companions approved of their appointment thus it was according to the Sunnah, and by extension the 12ers have NO point.

Hani

Re: The caliphate of abu Bakr (r.a)
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2016, 08:22:40 AM »
Sleepy now, remind me of this tomorrow.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

muslim720

Re: The caliphate of abu Bakr (r.a)
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2016, 01:24:30 PM »
Assalamu aleikum wa rahmatu Llahi wa barakatuhu ya ikhwati.

The rafidha have made invitation to debates regarding several questions. Yet none accepted it which gave them a lot of reasons to rejoice. These are those questions:


  How should the caliph be elected?  You claim that the Prophet peace be upon him didn't appoint a cahliph, and abu Bakr became one by the decision of shura of muslims. Tell us then why abu Bark didn't follow the Prophet's example and didn't let shura elect the new caliph?

 The election of caliph after period of Umar became quite different.He confined the right to determine it with six man. 

 If this issue should be solved by the concilium of muslims, then all muslims should participate. Why did Umar create a shura with six people in it?

We ask you why abu Bakr and Umar left a will while according to your opinion the Prophet peace be upon him and his family didn't do it? Why did abu Bakr and Umar didn't act in accordance with the sunna of the Prophet?


Could you brothers provide answers?

Walaykum as salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakathu,
I counted four questions posed by the Rawaafidh but honestly, the "four questions" stem from one misunderstanding.  Or I should say, deliberate hiding of facts (perhaps being ignorant of facts).

1.  The Prophet [saw] did not appoint a Caliph but consistently praised his Companions [ra] who were near and dear to him.  Out of these Companions [ra], he chose to take one as his travel companion.  Although I am not an Arab, there is an Arabic saying (I have been told) which goes something like, "before you set out on a journey, you should seek a travel companion".  Furthermore, the Prophet [saw] nominated the same person to lead the Muslims in prayer when he [saw] was unable to do so (due to his health).  Finally, the remaining Companions [ra] - those who were closest to the Prophet [saw] regarding whom we can find praise in narration after narration - agreed with the Caliphate of Abu Bakr [ra].

As for Abu Bakr [ra] preventing shura is a baseless claim.  Do the Shias think that Abu Bakr [ra] nominated Umar [ra] without the consent of other Companions [ra]?  They should read history and see how Abu Bakr [ra] sought the approval of Muslims in this matter.

2.  Again, misunderstanding or deliberate hiding of facts.  Umar [ra] chose the most prominent of Companions [ra] and asked them to elect someone from among themselves.  Therefore, logically one can deduce that these men consulted (shura) each other and arrived at a decision.  And this consultation took about three nights before Uthman [ra] was elected the leader.  So ask the Shias; what were they doing for three nights?  CONSULTING among themselves and other Companions [ra].  While we are at it, let us not forget that Uthman [ra] voted for Imam Ali [ra] whereas Imam Ali [ra] wanted Uthman [ra] to become the leader. 

3.  Already answered!  Umar [ra] did not elect an isolated group.  He nominated a panel of six men [ra] the entire ummah had no qualms about.  In other words, the six men [ra] were the best among the Muslims.  Disagreements arise when someone thinks he (or she) is better than someone else.  In this case, Umar [ra] had put together the top six, most well-deserved Companions [ra].  Not a single Muslim objected to any one of the six.  And as stated earlier, the six consulted among each other (it went on for three nights).

4.  What will did they leave?  If they are talking about leadership, then it is baseless and already refuted.  If they are talking about inheritance, then they should read their own narrations which say that Prophets [asws] do not leave dirhams but knowledge.  If they say, "oh but those narrations are talking about scholars, that scholars only inherit knowledge from the Prophet [saw]", ask them which scholar today has a monetary inheritance claim on the Prophet [saw]?
"Our coward ran from those in authority" - Iceman (admitting the truth regarding his 12th Imam)

Rationalist

Re: The caliphate of abu Bakr (r.a)
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2016, 02:43:03 AM »


No one said they were, but most of the companions approved of their appointment thus it was according to the Sunnah, and by extension the 12ers have NO point.
See that's what you have to clarify to the Dozeners first before starting this debate. You have to tell them we don't believe in the divine appointment.

As for the bayah, yes the companions did give the sahaba bayah in the aftermath. This is also found in Najh Al balagha.

Muslim ar Rusi

Re: The caliphate of abu Bakr (r.a)
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2016, 05:58:10 PM »
Assalamu aleikum wa rahmatu Llahi wa barakatuhu ya ikhwati.

The rafidha have made invitation to debates regarding several questions. Yet none accepted it which gave them a lot of reasons to rejoice. These are those questions:


  How should the caliph be elected?  You claim that the Prophet peace be upon him didn't appoint a cahliph, and abu Bakr became one by the decision of shura of muslims. Tell us then why abu Bark didn't follow the Prophet's example and didn't let shura elect the new caliph?

 The election of caliph after period of Umar became quite different.He confined the right to determine it with six man. 

 If this issue should be solved by the concilium of muslims, then all muslims should participate. Why did Umar create a shura with six people in it?

We ask you why abu Bakr and Umar left a will while according to your opinion the Prophet peace be upon him and his family didn't do it? Why did abu Bakr and Umar didn't act in accordance with the sunna of the Prophet?


Could you brothers provide answers?

Walaykum as salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakathu,
I counted four questions posed by the Rawaafidh but honestly, the "four questions" stem from one misunderstanding.  Or I should say, deliberate hiding of facts (perhaps being ignorant of facts).

1.  The Prophet [saw] did not appoint a Caliph but consistently praised his Companions [ra] who were near and dear to him.  Out of these Companions [ra], he chose to take one as his travel companion.  Although I am not an Arab, there is an Arabic saying (I have been told) which goes something like, "before you set out on a journey, you should seek a travel companion".  Furthermore, the Prophet [saw] nominated the same person to lead the Muslims in prayer when he [saw] was unable to do so (due to his health).  Finally, the remaining Companions [ra] - those who were closest to the Prophet [saw] regarding whom we can find praise in narration after narration - agreed with the Caliphate of Abu Bakr [ra].

As for Abu Bakr [ra] preventing shura is a baseless claim.  Do the Shias think that Abu Bakr [ra] nominated Umar [ra] without the consent of other Companions [ra]?  They should read history and see how Abu Bakr [ra] sought the approval of Muslims in this matter.

2.  Again, misunderstanding or deliberate hiding of facts.  Umar [ra] chose the most prominent of Companions [ra] and asked them to elect someone from among themselves.  Therefore, logically one can deduce that these men consulted (shura) each other and arrived at a decision.  And this consultation took about three nights before Uthman [ra] was elected the leader.  So ask the Shias; what were they doing for three nights?  CONSULTING among themselves and other Companions [ra].  While we are at it, let us not forget that Uthman [ra] voted for Imam Ali [ra] whereas Imam Ali [ra] wanted Uthman [ra] to become the leader. 

3.  Already answered!  Umar [ra] did not elect an isolated group.  He nominated a panel of six men [ra] the entire ummah had no qualms about.  In other words, the six men [ra] were the best among the Muslims.  Disagreements arise when someone thinks he (or she) is better than someone else.  In this case, Umar [ra] had put together the top six, most well-deserved Companions [ra].  Not a single Muslim objected to any one of the six.  And as stated earlier, the six consulted among each other (it went on for three nights).

4.  What will did they leave?  If they are talking about leadership, then it is baseless and already refuted.  If they are talking about inheritance, then they should read their own narrations which say that Prophets [asws] do not leave dirhams but knowledge.  If they say, "oh but those narrations are talking about scholars, that scholars only inherit knowledge from the Prophet [saw]", ask them which scholar today has a monetary inheritance claim on the Prophet [saw]?

Jazakallahu hairan akhy.
لا تعتقد دين الروافض إنهم أهل المحال وحزبة الشيطان

not a daish follower

Hani

Re: The caliphate of abu Bakr (r.a)
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2016, 11:00:04 AM »

Quote
How should the caliph be elected?  You claim that the Prophet peace be upon him didn't appoint a cahliph, and abu Bakr became one by the decision of shura of muslims. Tell us then why abu Bark didn't follow the Prophet's example and didn't let shura elect the new caliph?


The Caliph can be elected in any way the people agree on after consultation. Islam does not mention a system of how a leader is elected since it is a political matter that can evolve with time.


However, Islam emphasizes on consultation in how matters should be decided. Islam describes the qualities a leader must have. Islam talks about the responsibilities of the leader towards his people and the people towards their leaders. Islam emphasizes on unity and obedience to those in authority. Islam also gave the Muslims a group of men whom the Prophet (saw) himself favored and deemed worthy of such a position.


With all that in mind, it wasn't too hard to select a man that fits into all of these.


The Muslims themselves asked Abu Bakr to select a leader for them, they trusted his opinion and feared for themselves after his death. He consulted them in the matter, some agreed on his choice  while others did not agree. Then based on this, he made his decision.


Quote
The election of caliph after period of Umar became quite different.He confined the right to determine it with six man. 


`Umar was also asked to choose, he was about to do the same thing Abu Bakr did, then he feared he would be responsible for the actions of his successor in case he didn't turn out to be up to the task. `Umar then decided to remove all responsibility from himself, he nominated six men who were the leaders and heads of the Muslims at the time. Every Muslim alive viewed these six as the masters of Quraysh and the most suitable to receive authority and they were all pleased with them. `Ali participated thus he viewed `Umar's decision as being legitimate, if it were an act of Haram he would not participate. These six men agreed that `Abdul-Rahman makes consultation with the Muslims and decides for them who will be the next Caliph and based on their opinions he chose `Uthman.




Quote
If this issue should be solved by the concilium of muslims, then all muslims should participate. Why did Umar create a shura with six people in it?


The six were the leaders of the people, they were accepted by the people and favored by the people. These six popular Companions consulted among themselves and they consulted the people before a decision was made. It was the people's decision for `Umar to choose a successor, he chose to nominate six.


Quote
We ask you why abu Bakr and Umar left a will while according to your opinion the Prophet peace be upon him and his family didn't do it? Why did abu Bakr and Umar didn't act in accordance with the sunna of the Prophet?


The Prophet (saw) willed many things to the people before he passed. He willed for them to hold on to Allah's book, he willed for them to treat their female servants with kindness, he willed for them to give all his money in charity, he willed that they pay-off his debts and fulfill his promises etc...


So it's incorrect that he never willed. He did not write a will though nor did he appoint a successor.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Muslim ar Rusi

Re: The caliphate of abu Bakr (r.a)
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2016, 09:43:54 PM »
Thanks for such clear and informative answer brother Hani! May Allah subhanahu wa taala reward you and other brothers for refuting sabaite sect's doubts! I belive it's a very good deed in our religion to hate them and declare baraa towards them because they are enemies of Allah and his messenger salawatullahi aleihi was salam!
لا تعتقد دين الروافض إنهم أهل المحال وحزبة الشيطان

not a daish follower

 

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