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The Lies of the Imams

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Farid

The Lies of the Imams
« on: July 16, 2014, 10:55:30 AM »
Bismillah,

For those of you that don't know, Sulaiman bin Jareer is the leader of the Sulaimaniya/Jareeriya Zaidi sect. He lived during the times of Abu Ja'afar Al-Mansour, which means that he was a contemporary of Ja'afar Al-Sadiq.

Al-Nawbakhti, the Shia historian relates his story and his arguments against the Imamis:


لما أشار جعفر بن محمد إلى إمامة ابنه إسماعيل ثم مات إسماعيل في حياة أبيه رجعوا عن إمامة جعفر وقالوا كذبنا ولم يكن إماما لأن الإمام لا يكذب ولا يقول ما لا يكون، وحكوا عن جعفر أنه قال إن الله عز وجل بدا له في إمامة اسماعيل، فأنكروا البداء والمشيئة من الله وقالوا هذا باطل لا يجوز، ومالوا إلى مقالة البترية ومقالة سليمان بن جرير وهو الذي قال لأصحابه بهذا السبب إن أئمة الرافضة وضعوا لشيعتهم مقالتين لا يظهرون معهما من أئمتهم على كذب أبدا وهما القول بالبداء وإجازة التقية، فأما البداء فإن أئمتهم لما أحلوا أنفسهم من شيعنهم محل الأنبياء من رعيتها في العلم فيما كان ويكون والإخبار بما يكون في غد وقالوا لشيعتهم إنه سيكون في غد وفي غابر الأيام كذا وكذا فإن جاء ذلك الشيء على ما قالوه قالوا لهم: ألم نعلمكم أن هذا يكون فنحن نعلم من قبل الله عز وجل ما علمته الأنبياء وبيننا وبين الله عز وجل مثل تلك الأسباب التي علمت بها الأنبياء عن الله ما علمت، وإن لم يكن ذلك الشيء الذي قالوا إنه يكون على ما قالوا قالوا لشيعتهم: بدا لله في ذلك [فلم] يكونه. وأما التقية فإنه لما كثرت على أئمتهم مسائل شيعنهم في الحلال والحرام وغير ذلك من صنوف أبواب الدين فأجابوا فيها وحفظ عنهم شيعتهم جواب ما سألوهم وكتبوه ودونوه ولم يحفظ أئمتهم تلك الأجوبة لتقادم العهد وتفاوت الأوقات لأن مسائلهم لم ترد في يوم واحد ولا في شهر واحد بل في سنين متباعدة وأشهر متباينة وأوقات متفرقة فوقع في أيديهم في المسألة الواحدة عدة أجوبة مختلفة متضادة وفي مسائل مختلفة أجوبة متفقة، فلما وقفوا على ذلك منهم ردوا إليهم هذا الاختلاف والتخليط في جواباتهم وسألوهم عنه وأنكروه عليهم فقالوا: من أين هذا الاختلاف وكيف جاز ذلك؟ قالت لهم أئمتهم: إنما أجبنا بهذا للتقية ولنا أن نجيب بما أحببنا وكيف شئنا لأن ذلك إلينا ونحن نعلم بما يصلحكم وما فيه بقاؤنا وبقاؤكم وكف عدوكم عنا وعنكم؛ فمتى يظهر من هؤلاء على كذب ومتى يعرف لهم حق من باطل؟ فمال إلى سليمان بن جرير هذا لهذا القول جماعة من أصحاب أبي جعفر وتركوا القول بإمامة جعفر عليهما السلام
.


When Ja'afar bin Mohammad pointed towards the Imamate of his son Isma'eel, he (Isma'eel) died during the life of his father, and they (the Imamis) turned away from the Imamate of Ja'afar. They said, "We were lied upon, and the Imam does not lie, nor does he say what doesn't happen." They narrated from Ja'afar that he said that bada'a (what was hidden has become apparent) occured to Allah as to what would happen to the Imamate of Isma'eel. They turned away from bada'a and the will of Allah and said that this is false and not permissible. They shifted to the view of the Batriyyah.

As for the statement of Sulaiman bin Jareer, who said to his companions that the Imams of the Rafidha created two ideological view, which prevents them from ever finding an apparent lie from the Imams, which are bada'a and taqiyyah.

(Sulaiman bin Jareer said:) As for bada'a, when the Imams have taken the station of prophets amongst their people, in the knowledge of past and future, they told their Shias, "Tomorrow, such and such will happen." If that matter occurred, they said, "Didn't we tell you that this would happen?! We knew this from Allah what the prophets knew from Him, and between us and Allah are the causes of which how the prophets knew from Allah what they knew." However, if that matter that they said would happen didn't occur, they would said, "Bada'a has occurred to Allah, so it didn't happen."
 
As for taqiyyah, for when there were so many questions regarding the halal and haram and other matters that they responded to, and these answers were memorized, written, and documented, by their Shias, and the Imams themselves didn't memorize their answers due to the passage of time, for their questions didn't occur in one day, nor one month, but were years and months apart, and different times, they answered a question with many contradicting answers, and contradicting answers with a similar answer. So, when they were encountered due to these contradictions in their answers, were condemned,  and they were asked, "Where did these contradictions come from, and how is this possible?" The Imams responded, "Our responses were taqiyyah, and we can answer in whichever way we want, for that is to us, and we know what is best for you, and what will cause us both to last, and what prevents our enemies from us."

So, how is it possible for their lies to be apparent and how is it possible to know their truth from their falsehood?!

Al-Nawbakhti comments: And so, a group of the companions of Abi Ja'afar joined Sulaiman bin Jareer and left the opinion that Ja'afar (as) is the Imam.

I (Farid) say: The argumentation of Sulaiman bin Jareer is flawless. It is no wonder that Imamis joined him after formulating these arguments. However, as a Sunni, I am obligated to believe that it was not the Twelver Imams that created these concepts, but rather, the liars amongst their students. For we do not find cases in which the bada'a card needs to be played in the narrations attributed to the Al-Baqir and Al-Sadiq in the Sunni hadith library, nor do we find the insane amount of contradictions that we find in the Shia hadith library within our system.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 11:02:41 AM by Farid »

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Re: The Lies of the Imams
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2014, 03:40:11 PM »
Interesting article Farid.

بارک الله فیک
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Farid

Re: The Lies of the Imams
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2014, 07:26:00 PM »
Wa feek.

Kalaam

Re: The Lies of the Imams
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2014, 09:13:27 PM »
Good stuff brother. I have translated it into Urdu. Barakallah feekum.

Muhammad Habib

Re: The Lies of the Imams
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2014, 10:34:16 PM »
Great thing about the posts of Brother Farid is that we always learn new things and comprehend them easily. I request u bro Farid that please write a comparison on SUNNI Al-Sadiq vs Shia Al-Sadiq just like u did in a thread Sunni Imam Ali /Shia Imam Ali on a Shia forum.

Farid

Re: The Lies of the Imams
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2014, 04:49:05 AM »
^ Thank you akhi for the kind words. Perhaps I will do that someday. However, it seems like one of our brothers is already working on that project. I've been waiting for his results for a while now. =)

Hani

Re: The Lies of the Imams
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2014, 09:56:08 PM »
You mean lotfilms right? hehe
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Iqra07

Re: The Lies of the Imams
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2014, 09:58:44 PM »
The doctrine of taqiyah is perhaps the.greatest fitnah of 12ver Shia madhab. It allows them to.claim just about anything.  They have narrations where.their.Imams gave different.answers.to.same question from Muslims. They justify this by saying Imam was speaking in taqiyah. 
How can this be?  Just by the fact that important question was being referred to him means that it was k.own that he was Imam or at least scholar. So why would the ANSWER be.in taqiyah if the Imam/scholar wasn't?
Also how.is.this.guidance?  There is no way to tell taqiyah answer from correct one.

So yes the 12ers lie on their.Imams many of whom never.claimed.to be.Imams in first place anyway.even according to 12er books

Farid

Re: The Lies of the Imams
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2014, 10:56:53 AM »
^ The main danger is that it allows the follower of the sect to openly choose his beliefs. Unlike other sects, taqiyyah demolishes the rules that the religion makes mandatory by giving you the choice of following one view or the exact opposite view.

As you implied, it cannot be guidance.

Following the taqiyyah narration of the Imams cannot be guidance either, since it goes against the shar' of Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala), and yet, it is obligatory to follow what the Imam has taught.

They thought that coming up with this concept is a blessing, but it is nothing more than a sanctuary for diseased hearts.

MuslimAnswers

Re: The Lies of the Imams
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2017, 12:02:58 PM »
Quote
^ The main danger is that it allows the follower of the sect to openly choose his beliefs. Unlike other sects, taqiyyah demolishes the rules that the religion makes mandatory by giving you the choice of following one view or the exact opposite view.

As you implied, it cannot be guidance.

Following the taqiyyah narration of the Imams cannot be guidance either, since it goes against the shar' of Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala), and yet, it is obligatory to follow what the Imam has taught.

They thought that coming up with this concept is a blessing, but it is nothing more than a sanctuary for diseased hearts.

I know it is an old thread, but I was just wondering if you have had the opportunity to study how Taqqiyah is addressed as a 'Chapter' within Twelver religious studies, apart from explicitly polemic tracts [as an analogy we Sunnis discuss many matters about how speech is to be looked at, what is Mujmal and Bayaan, what is 'Aam and Khass, the differences between Qawl and Af'al of the Prophet (SAW), and the opinions that come in this regard.]
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 12:09:04 PM by MuslimAnswers »

Link

Re: The Lies of the Imams
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2017, 12:57:21 AM »
This just shows are belief in Taqiya went into extreme.

People aren't required to fabricate hadiths when there is plenty of fabrications they can narrate from and attribute it to the fabricator.

Taqiya has it's limits and to attribute lies to God to the extent you lie against the Imam or fabricate chains, is not allowable.

If one had to pretend they are Sunni, they can narrate from Sunni narrators, no need to pollute clean water with falsehood.

And Imams manifested the truth and this is what Quran and more numerous ahadith show.  The fact is our scholars wouldn't recognize a contradict in our more authentic hadiths no matter how clearly it is. Even if it contradicts our whole foundation they would not realize it.

Or when they do realize like certain authentic hadiths about Khums, they call whatever they want taqiya and whatever they want the true stance of Imams despite the correct interpretation being found in Quran.

Our Imams sacrificed their lives in promotion of truth that were against the desires of the people in love with dunya. That is the reality but the love of the Taghut among people is strong that they will demolish everything our Imams strove for in the name of sticking to them.

Believe me if scholars came out saying this is an extreme of Taqiya, none of the Shia would follow it.  It doesn't matter what Quran and ahadith say (although I realize there is a lot of ahadith that support this extreme of taqiya).

A person can always attribute lies to Imam and when Imam exposes him, say the Imam is doing out of Taqiya to protect him.

May God save us from the falsehood of Shayateen of humans and Jinn, who unleashed lies attributed to both the Prophet and his 12 Successors.

May we be illuminated by Quran and reason to know the true teachings of the Sunnah.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

 

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