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I would like to have a one on one debate about Imammate.

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Re: I would like to have a one on one debate about Imammate.
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2016, 12:20:43 AM »
Ibn Yahya, I believe verses like 42:23 and 4:59 are clear as well as hadithal thaqalain with Ali Mawla. I just think why limit the debate about "it's clear" "it's not" "this is why I think it's clear" "this is why I think it's not" sort of head banging.  So let's go a different avenue. Quran has a lot of verses for us to reflect about.   Aside from that it's proving the structure of the religion to Christians Jews Deists Polytheists and all people who have faith in God, in fact, there is even many verses that prove God to Atheists and that they know he exists and act as if he does all the time, with pointing to some realities they take for granted but only makes sense with a Lord behind it all. The Quran is the book of God. It has so much in it, every word was wisely picked out of infinite possible words God could of said. It is not to be taken lightly if we believe if it is from God.

We don't know how Imam Mahdi is going to unite humanity by it. We don't know which verses will have more meaning and emphasis.  All of it comes together and compliments one another. There is a similarity a structure but yet different dimensions. Once we think of it all, most of it should become clear signs to us.

The way it is when we are ignorant and don't reflect, is that most of it seems like it's not saying much or just telling us irrelevant things.

Non-Muslims are suppose to be convinced of Islam as well, even non-Arabs who are unaware of the eloquence of Quran. To them obviously the content holds more weight then how it rhymes and sounds.

We already know we disagree on whether ghadeer declaration is clear or not for example. We disagree on the interpretation of thaqalain. Why not get into a new discussion?
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hadrami

Re: I would like to have a one on one debate about Imammate.
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2016, 12:25:05 AM »
Although I do believe the Imam is among us and guides many people, it's better to be useless then a source of misguidance as many religious leaders ended up being to fill in the void of the guidance of God.

Wake up man. If this mahdi of yours does exist then he is both useless and a source of misguidance due to him being useless.

Ibn Yahya

Re: I would like to have a one on one debate about Imammate.
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2016, 02:55:50 AM »
Ibn Yahya, I believe verses like 42:23 and 4:59 are clear as well as hadithal thaqalain with Ali Mawla. I just think why limit the debate about "it's clear" "it's not" "this is why I think it's clear" "this is why I think it's not" sort of head banging.  So let's go a different avenue. Quran has a lot of verses for us to reflect about.   Aside from that it's proving the structure of the religion to Christians Jews Deists Polytheists and all people who have faith in God, in fact, there is even many verses that prove God to Atheists and that they know he exists and act as if he does all the time, with pointing to some realities they take for granted but only makes sense with a Lord behind it all. The Quran is the book of God. It has so much in it, every word was wisely picked out of infinite possible words God could of said. It is not to be taken lightly if we believe if it is from God.

Firstly akhi those verses are indeed clear but to anyone who understands the Arabic words used and looks at them in comparison to the whole Qur'an will realise they have no proofs for Imamah as the Twelvers understand it.

Ulil 'Amr is the word used in 4:59 and it just means someone with the authority of a ruler, not necessarily a spiritual head.

I am not sure how you could link 42:23 to Twelver Imamah in anyway. It just praises kinship (if I am mistaken or being ignorant please tell me).

But it's funny you should bring up Hadith al-Ghadeer because it heavily depends on the word "Mawla" and how you choose to translate it. So in my opinion it's a very unclear and controversial Hadith, that I'm not even going to try and debate on because I am not nearly knowledgeable enough to do so.

I never said there weren't verses to reflect and think about (it's one of the many reasons why I am no longer a Twelver after all). These verses that refute the Kuffaar and the Mushrikeen are clear hence why Allah subhaanahu wa ta'aala said that he has given us clear signs. So like I said surely Imamah should be as obvious as Tawheed and all the other Usools.

Ibn Yahya

Re: I would like to have a one on one debate about Imammate.
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2016, 03:00:02 AM »


We don't know how Imam Mahdi is going to unite humanity by it. We don't know which verses will have more meaning and emphasis.  All of it comes together and compliments one another. There is a similarity a structure but yet different dimensions. Once we think of it all, most of it should become clear signs to us.

Well actually you do. You have entire books of Ahadith on what and how he's going to do all of this in detail that matches a poorly written Daily Mail article.

Husayn

Re: I would like to have a one on one debate about Imammate.
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2016, 06:09:54 AM »
I don't want to engage in a philosophical debate.

Philosophy is something that aristocrats with too much time on their hands discuss over some cake and tea, there is no truth to be gained, merely inflated egos and vanity, with each side trying to string together words into nice sounding sentences (to support their already pre-conceived notions).

Islam is a religion of textual evidence - if you need philosophy to explain your beliefs then you are not a proper Muslim.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

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Re: I would like to have a one on one debate about Imammate.
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2016, 08:34:24 AM »
Ok suit yourself. I've decided I don't want to argue about these things either. Rather I will be stating my tatabur here: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235035070-philosophy-of-wilayah-where-quran-sunnah-and-reason-meet/#comment-2881768
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Bolani Muslim

Re: I would like to have a one on one debate about Imammate.
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2016, 06:23:37 PM »
Ok suit yourself. I've decided I don't want to argue about these things either. Rather I will be stating my tatabur here: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235035070-philosophy-of-wilayah-where-quran-sunnah-and-reason-meet/#comment-2881768
You still never answered my question :(.

Hani

Re: I would like to have a one on one debate about Imammate.
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2016, 01:42:45 AM »
You want to prove the value and importance of Imamah(Leadership) in the Qur'an? Well guess what, Muslims all agree on the importance of leadership based on Qur'an as well as Hadith. You'd be proving nothing in this debate that we don't already believe in.

Instead debate about whether `Ali and his eleven children are appointed by text or not, that's what we're differing in.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

 

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