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[Absurd] Proof of Zayd Bin Ali (as) claiming/desiring Imamah.

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fgss

[Absurd] Proof of Zayd Bin Ali (as) claiming/desiring Imamah.
« on: August 03, 2019, 06:15:08 PM »
Here is the proof from one of their reliable book.

And this also shows why one can not simply rely upon Shia reports esp. about doctrine of Imamah.


https://www.al-islam.org/kamaaluddin-wa-tamaamun-nima-vol-1-shaykh-saduq/chapter-27-narration-lady-fatima-zahra

Narration of the scroll regarding the names of Imams, names of their mothers, and that the twelfth of them will be the Qaim.

1 - Narrated to us Muhammad bin Ibrahim bin Ishaq Taliqani (r.a.): Narrated to us Hasan bin Ismail: Narrated to us Abu Amr and Saeed bin Muhammad bin Nasr al-Qattan: Narrated to us Abdullah bin Muhammad Salmi: Narrated to us Muhammad bin Abdur Rahman: Narrated to us Muhammad bin Saeed bin Muhammad: Narrated to us Abbas bin Abi Amr from Sadaqah bin Abi Musa from Abi Nazra that he said:

“When the last moments of Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) approached, he summoned his son, Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) and took the oath of Imamate from him. The brother of Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.), Zaid bin Ali bin Husain said: O Brother, why don’t you let the matter proceed like in the case of Imam Hasan (a.s.) and Imam Husain (a.s.)? The Imam said: Abul Hasan, Imamate is not transferred by emulation and it is not given from one to another by way of a custom. It is one of the decided proofs of the Almighty.

Then the Imam called for Jabir bin Abdullah and said: O Jabir, narrate to me the tradition about what you saw in the scroll of Fatima. Jabir said: Yes, O Abu Ja’far, one day I went to the house of Fatima to offer greetings at the birth of Imam Hasan (a.s.). I saw in the hands of Fatima, a scroll in a white binding. I asked: O chief of the ladies, what scroll is this? She said: It contains the names of the Imams from my progeny. I said: Can I see it? She replied: Only the Prophet, the successor of the Prophet and his Ahlul Bayt (a.s.) can touch this scroll. If this restriction had not been there I would have given it to you. But I can permit you to see it without touching it.

Jabir says: I read this scroll. It was written therein: Abul Qasim Muhammad bin Abdullah Mustafa, whose mother is Amina binte Wahab, Abul Hasan Ali Ibne Abi Talib al-Murtuza, whose mother is Fatima binte Asad bin Hashim bin Abde Manaf, Abu Muhammad Hasan bin Ali al-Birr, Abu Abdullah Husain bin Ali Taqi, both of whose mother is Fatima binte Muhammad, Abu Muhammad Ali bin Husain al-Adl whose mother is Shaharbano binte Yazdjird Ibne Shahanshah, Abu Ja’far Muhammad bin Ali al-Baqir whose mother is Umme Abdullah binte Hasan bin Ali Ibne Abi Talib (a.s.), Abu Abdullah Ja’far bin Muhammad as-Sadiq whose mother is Umme Farwa binte Qasim bin Muhammad bin Abu Bakr, Abu Ibrahim Musa bin Ja’far Thiqa whose mother is a slave wife named Hamida, Abul Hasan Ali bin Musa ar-Reza whose mother is a slave wife named Najma, Abu Ja’far Muhammad bin Ali Zaki whose mother is a slave wife named Khizran, Abul Hasan Ali bin Muhammad Amin whose mother is Susan the maid, Abu Muhammad Hasan bin Ali Rafiq whose mother is Samana the maid and her patronym was Ummul Hasan, Abul Qasim Muhammad bin Hasan, the proof of Allah on the creatures whose mother is Narjis the maid slave; peace of Allah be on them all.”
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 06:17:06 PM by fgss »
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

Rationalist

Re: [Absurd] Proof of Zayd Bin Ali (as) claiming/desiring Imamah.
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2019, 07:11:31 PM »
Al Kafi has two views on this subject.
1) He claimed Imamate
2) He did not claim Imamate.

Then Shaykh Saduq and Shaykh Mufid took the second view and made the prominent view of the 12er Shia. In addition Shaykh Mufid borrowed from narration from Maqatil At Talibeen and that become the primary source for Seerah on Imam Zayd for the 12er Shia.

Here is another hadith on Imam Zayd claiming Imamate.

H 927, Ch. 81, h 16
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from
َث al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id from al-Husayn ibn al-Jarud from Musa ibn Bakr ibn Dab

from the one who narrated to him from abu Ja'far, recipient of divine supreme
covenant, who has said the following:
“Zayd, ibn Ali ibn al-Husayn, once went to see abu Ja'far,
Muhammad ibn Ali, recipient of divine supreme covenant. He
carried with him letters from the people of Kufa who invited him
to their (city) and informed him of their unity and collective
decision to ask him to rise. Abu Ja'far, recipient of divine
supreme covenant, then asked him, ‘Are these letters their
initiative or a response to what you had written to them and
asked them to do?’ He said that it was their initiative; they
acknowledge our rights and because of our being from the
family of the Messenger of Allah. It is also because of what they
read in the book of Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Gracious,
about the obligation to love and obey us. Also it is because of
the suffering impediments and afflictions that we had been
through.
“Abu Ja'far, recipient of divine supreme covenant, said to him,
‘Obedience is an obligation from Allah, the Most Majestic, the
Most Gracious. It is a tradition, Sunnah, that He had established
in the people of the past and in the same way it will continue in
the later generations of the people. Obedience is only for one of
us and to love is for all of us. The command of Allah applies to
His friends because of the rules already made available and
because of the decision already made distinct, because of the
finalized decision and of the measurement that has already taken
place and because of the appointed time on a certain date. Do
not be hasty; Allah does not become hasty due to hastiness in the
people. Do not try to surpass Allah; in your doing so, misfortune
will defeat and destroy you.
“The narrator has said that Zayd became angry and said, ‘The
Imam from us is not the one who sits in his home; draw the
curtain around him and hold back from struggle (jihad). The
Imam from us is the one who safeguards his dominion, fights for
the cause of Allah a real fight, defends those who hold high
regard for him and his rights.’

“Abu Ja'far, recipient of divine supreme covenant, then said,
‘O brother, do you really find any of the things that you
mentioned about yourself? If so, then can you show supporting
proof from the book of Allah or evidence from the Sunnah of the
Messenger of Allah or give a similar example? Allah, the Most
Majestic, the Most Gracious, made things lawful and unlawful.
He has sanctioned the obligations, provided examples and set up
traditions Sunan. He has not made the Imam, who rises with
Divine Authority on His command, engulfed in doubts in the
matters of the obligation of obedience to him. He has not made
him as such that he would act upon an issue before its proper
place and struggle for something before it is there yet. Allah, the
Most Majestic, the Most Gracious, has said, ‘Believers, do not
hunt when you are in the Holy precinct. . . .’ (5:95) Is hunting an
animal that has been made prohibited during Hajj more serious
or the killing of a person that Allah has prohibited? Allah, the
Most Majestic, the Most Gracious, has assigned a place for
everything. ‘Once the restrictions of Hajj are over, you may
hunt. . . .’ (5:2) Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Gracious, has
said, ‘Believers, do not disrespect the reminders of Allah, the
sacred months, . . .’ (5:2) He has made the number of months
well-known of which four are sacred ones. He has said, ‘. . .
during the four sacred months, they (pagans) may travel
peacefully through the land. You (pagans) must know that you
cannot make Allah helpless . . .’ (9:2) Then Allah, the Most
Holy, the Most High, has said, ‘When the sacred months are
over, slay the pagans wherever you find them. . . .’ (9:5) He has
assigned a place for it. He has also said, ‘Do not decide for a
marriage before the appointed time is over. . . .’ (2:235) He has
assigned a time for everything and for every period of time there
is Kitab (a rule). If you may have the necessary evidence from
your Lord, certainty from yourself in your affairs and you know
well about it then you may act accordingly. Otherwise, do not
aim at an issue in which you have doubt and uncertainty. Do not
act to end a kingdom the sustenance of which is not yet
exhausted; its time has not ended and its Kitab (rule) has not
reached its time. When its time comes, its sustenance diminishes
and its rule reaches its time, the gap will be removed and the
system will follow and Allah will make the followers (of
falsehood) and those followed to suffer humiliation.’
“O brother, do you want to revive the ways of a people who
have rejected the signs of Allah, disobeyed His Messenger,
followed their desires, without guidance from Allah, claimed the
Khilafa (Leadership with Divine Authority) without authority
and evidence from Allah, or a covenant from the Messenger of
Allah? I pray to Allah to grant you, O brother, refuge from being
crucified tomorrow in al-Kunasa.’ Then his eyes became flooded
with tears that flowed down and then he said, ‘Allah is between
us and the people who disregarded our honor, ignored our rights,
made our secrets public and have ascribed us to someone other
than our grandfather. They have said about us what we ourselves
do not say.’”

Muhammad Tazin

Re: [Absurd] Proof of Zayd Bin Ali (as) claiming/desiring Imamah.
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2019, 06:13:58 PM »
I am being confused about which "Jabir bin Abdullah" this narration talking about?

Sahabi Jabir(ra) died in 78 AH, when Muhammad al Baqir(r) was just about 21-22 years old, how can he be present in the last moments of Baqir(r) ?

fgss

Re: [Absurd] Proof of Zayd Bin Ali (as) claiming/desiring Imamah.
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2019, 01:12:15 PM »
Al Kafi has two views on this subject.
1) He claimed Imamate
2) He did not claim Imamate.

Then Shaykh Saduq and Shaykh Mufid took the second view and made the prominent view of the 12er Shia. In addition Shaykh Mufid borrowed from narration from Maqatil At Talibeen and that become the primary source for Seerah on Imam Zayd for the 12er Shia.

Here is another hadith on Imam Zayd claiming Imamate.


Almost in every report about Imam Zayd's claim of imamate, he had argument with Imam al-Baqir or Imam al-Sadiq.

Do you have report of Kafi which says Imam Zayd did not claim imamate?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 01:14:04 PM by fgss »
إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

fgss

Re: [Absurd] Proof of Zayd Bin Ali (as) claiming/desiring Imamah.
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2019, 01:20:59 PM »
I am being confused about which "Jabir bin Abdullah" this narration talking about?

Sahabi Jabir(ra) died in 78 AH, when Muhammad al Baqir(r) was just about 21-22 years old, how can he be present in the last moments of Baqir(r) ?

Yes its the Sahabi, Jabir bin Abdullah Ansari (ra).

Narrations of tablet are nothing but fabrication. Have problems both in isnad and text.

For example the one from book Kamaluddin of Sadooq, chapter 27 says:

Then the Imam called for Jabir bin Abdullah and said: O Jabir, narrate to me the tradition about what you saw in the scroll of Fatima. Jabir said: Yes, O Abu Ja’far, one day I went to the house of Fatima to offer greetings at the birth of Imam Hasan (a.s.). I saw in the hands of Fatima, a scroll in a white binding.

And report of chapter 28, same book, says:

Jabir replied, ‘I hold Allah as Witness that I went to visit your mother, Fatima (a.s.) during the lifetime of the Messenger of Allah (S) to congratulate her for Husain’s (a.s.) birth. I saw in her hand a green Tablet, which I thought to be of emerald and its writing was as bright as sunlight.

إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen


fgss

إِنَّ أَصْدَقَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابُ اللَّهِ وَأَحْسَنَ الْهَدْىِ هَدْىُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَشَرَّ الأُمُورِ مُحْدَثَاتُهَا وَكُلَّ مُحْدَثَةٍ بِدْعَةٌ وَكُلَّ بِدْعَةٍ ضَلاَلَةٌ وَكُلَّ ضَلاَلَةٍ فِي النَّارِ

May Allah guide us to the true teachings of Quran and Sunnah of His beloved Prophet (s.a.w.w). Ameen

 

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