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True Leadership vs False leadership...

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True Leadership vs False leadership...
« on: February 19, 2017, 04:33:36 PM »
A god can be used in two contexts, one that it refers to an object that is worshiped, or two, that it refers to a being that ought to be worshiped.

When a person includes the word "true", as in the "the true God", it implies that true being that ought to be worshipped.....

Likewise when it says there is no God, but God, the "no god..." implies there exists no beings that ought to be worshipped but God.

I make the following proposition and tell me if you disagree.

King in Quran has two meanings. That of an entity that is taken as a sovereign authority over them, and 2ndly that of an entity that ought to be taken as a sovereign authority over them.

Leader in Quran has two meanings. That of an entity that ought to be followed, and that of entity that is followed.


When it says for example that God is the true king, or the king in truth, then it implies there are also false kings. Now people taken as sovereign authorities cannot be undone by this, they are taken as that, whether by truth or falsehood.

Likewise when it says "the day every human will be called with their leader" and other verses showing "the day every people will be called with a witness from themselves", that is to say the true leader they had, the one that ought to be taken as a leader for how they live their life, by which the book of their is written and their deeds accounted for,  is that person, it is not who they simply choose to follow.

People choose to follow multiple people in their lives, and the Quran even uses "their awliya are the Taghut", but Quran is showing as for the one they ought to follow and make that person the leader in all aspects of their lives is one and only one person.

The means Allah becomes the Wali of believers and takes them to the light, is through guidance he appoints. At the interior of it all, is the light of the Sun he appointed. Recognizing the true light and coming into the perception of the vision of God of oneself is key, while not recognizing one will be entangled in false perception and falsehood, and will perceive himself and others through eyes generated by the sorcery of the devils of the Jinn and humans.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 04:36:24 PM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2017, 11:25:52 PM »
It still baffling me to this day that there are still exist a people who are following a leader who isn't leading for more than a thousand years and they call that a true leadership...

Link

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2017, 11:33:05 PM »
It still baffling me to this day that there are still exist a people who are following a leader who isn't leading for more than a thousand years and they call that a true leadership...

It is best to reject all false leadership and be leaderless, then follow the falsehood and call it true. It's better to acknowledge one is ignorant of oneself than to believe in a lie and call it "I".

But that said, those who believe in the unseen, these are the people who are linked with being successful. It is these who will see with the eyes meant to be look by, these will enter into the vision of God, these will enter in the name of God by the name of God.

It's better to be in the desert awaiting the guidance of God and awaiting the time to being guided and lead by God and his appointed Guardian and Master over humanity, then to follow a person without proof.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Farid

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2017, 07:58:06 AM »
Many false leaders have built economies, created peace, protected their citizens, and spread the word of La ilaha illa Allah.

All we know of this longest running hidden ruler that you have is that he doesn't exist according to his uncle.

It is a pity that Shias are so gullible to believe that their khums is going to him, when Al Jawad himself could do nothing to Salih bin Mohammad bin Sahl, who freely stole the khums. Salih came to him and said, "Forgive me." Al Jawad said, "You are forgiven." Then, upon leaving, Al Jawad curses the man.

This is how powerless an Imam who actually existed was according to an authentic Shia hadith. The very suggestion that a "hidden" Imam is more competant with the khums funds is laughable.

Link

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2017, 03:11:13 AM »
Do you believe there have been any rulers (in the sense they are taken as rulers) that ought to not rule?

Do you believe there have been any leaders that ought to be not taken as leaders?
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

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Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2017, 05:08:31 PM »
A god can be used in two contexts, one that it refers to an object that is worshiped, or two, that it refers to a being that ought to be worshiped.

When a person includes the word "true", as in the "the true God", it implies that true being that ought to be worshipped.....

Likewise when it says there is no God, but God, the "no god..." implies there exists no beings that ought to be worshipped but God.

I make the following proposition and tell me if you disagree.

King in Quran has two meanings. That of an entity that is taken as a sovereign authority over them, and 2ndly that of an entity that ought to be taken as a sovereign authority over them.

Leader in Quran has two meanings. That of an entity that ought to be followed, and that of entity that is followed.


When it says for example that God is the true king, or the king in truth, then it implies there are also false kings. Now people taken as sovereign authorities cannot be undone by this, they are taken as that, whether by truth or falsehood.

Likewise when it says "the day every human will be called with their leader" and other verses showing "the day every people will be called with a witness from themselves", that is to say the true leader they had, the one that ought to be taken as a leader for how they live their life, by which the book of their is written and their deeds accounted for,  is that person, it is not who they simply choose to follow.

People choose to follow multiple people in their lives, and the Quran even uses "their awliya are the Taghut", but Quran is showing as for the one they ought to follow and make that person the leader in all aspects of their lives is one and only one person.

The means Allah becomes the Wali of believers and takes them to the light, is through guidance he appoints. At the interior of it all, is the light of the Sun he appointed. Recognizing the true light and coming into the perception of the vision of God of oneself is key, while not recognizing one will be entangled in false perception and falsehood, and will perceive himself and others through eyes generated by the sorcery of the devils of the Jinn and humans.

Abdulmalik Ibn Marwan Ibn Al Hakam was the ummayad leader who sent Al Hajjaj Ibn Yusuf to take out Ibn Zubayr(ra) Hajjaj crucified Ibn Zubayr(ra) and he even catapulted the kaaba. This same Ibn Marwan also aided in the Al Aqsa masjid.

Imaam Ash-Shawkaanee (died 1250 A.H.) said in his book Raf'-ul-Asaateen fee Hukm-il-Ittisaal bis-Salaateen (pg. 81-82): It is well established in the Mighty Book (Qur`an) that we are commanded to obey the ruler. Allaah put obeying the rulers after obeying Him and obeying the Messenger (salallaahu 'alaihi wasallam). There are many ahaadeeth in the purified Sunnah, i.e. the main collections, and other books that state that it is obligatory to obey them [the rulers] and to be patient with their oppression.

One of the ahaadeeth in which the Prophet (salallaahu 'alaihi wasallam) commanded us to obey them [the rulers] consists of the words: '...even if he beats your back and takes your money.' It is also authentically reported on him (salallaahu 'alaihi wasallam) that he said: 'Give them what they are entitled to (of rights), and ask Allaah for what you are entitled to (of rights)."

Regardless, this doesn't add up to your belief in the 12th imam because your imam has not established tamkeem over the Muslims. He's been hiding in a cave for centuries and your satanic leaders collect "khums" onn his behalf.
They asked how many will be with the one I hate. I said 313

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Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2017, 11:06:54 AM »
Do you believe God is the True King of the world?

Is it through Quran he is the full authority on all humanity and Jinn even though there came periods and times with many places (majority of the world at one point) who didn't have access to Quran teachings?

Even though the Sign has been hidden,  essentially, the true way God rules humanity is through his command and light brought down,  his seat encompasses all things and all things are found in the throne.

The truth of the very notion that we must believe in God and obey him, is rooted in the spiritual realm which are hearts are connected to.

The notion we are connected to God by some great reality which Quran calls "name of God", is no doubt rooted in our hearts.

The name of God rules humanity, and the Quran shows Mohammad is the name of God.

It shows the Leader and Guide of time is the name of God/face of God.

If you truly believe in God, it becomes intuitive that true ruler of humanity is Imam Mahdi. If you don't really believe God is the True King but just give lip service to God for the sake of a religious identity, and deceive yourself that you are a committed worshiper while associating others with his obedience and authority, then you become allergic to the guide being hidden.

If you are in love with God, you realize neither God nor Imam is hidden but is the most manifest thing we see.

In fact we are more hidden (that is we are more ignorant of who we are as individuals) then God and Imam.

The Quran through out talks about the barrier on disbelievers, and talks about how believers see the light.

According to noble hadiths,  to love the family of Mohammad always meant to make them the eyes by which see, the eyes to the head, or the mind to the body.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Link

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2017, 11:15:57 AM »
A god can be used in two contexts, one that it refers to an object that is worshiped, or two, that it refers to a being that ought to be worshiped.

When a person includes the word "true", as in the "the true God", it implies that true being that ought to be worshipped.....

Likewise when it says there is no God, but God, the "no god..." implies there exists no beings that ought to be worshipped but God.

I make the following proposition and tell me if you disagree.

King in Quran has two meanings. That of an entity that is taken as a sovereign authority over them, and 2ndly that of an entity that ought to be taken as a sovereign authority over them.

Leader in Quran has two meanings. That of an entity that ought to be followed, and that of entity that is followed.


When it says for example that God is the true king, or the king in truth, then it implies there are also false kings. Now people taken as sovereign authorities cannot be undone by this, they are taken as that, whether by truth or falsehood.

Likewise when it says "the day every human will be called with their leader" and other verses showing "the day every people will be called with a witness from themselves", that is to say the true leader they had, the one that ought to be taken as a leader for how they live their life, by which the book of their is written and their deeds accounted for,  is that person, it is not who they simply choose to follow.

People choose to follow multiple people in their lives, and the Quran even uses "their awliya are the Taghut", but Quran is showing as for the one they ought to follow and make that person the leader in all aspects of their lives is one and only one person.

The means Allah becomes the Wali of believers and takes them to the light, is through guidance he appoints. At the interior of it all, is the light of the Sun he appointed. Recognizing the true light and coming into the perception of the vision of God of oneself is key, while not recognizing one will be entangled in false perception and falsehood, and will perceive himself and others through eyes generated by the sorcery of the devils of the Jinn and humans.

Abdulmalik Ibn Marwan Ibn Al Hakam was the ummayad leader who sent Al Hajjaj Ibn Yusuf to take out Ibn Zubayr(ra) Hajjaj crucified Ibn Zubayr(ra) and he even catapulted the kaaba. This same Ibn Marwan also aided in the Al Aqsa masjid.

Imaam Ash-Shawkaanee (died 1250 A.H.) said in his book Raf'-ul-Asaateen fee Hukm-il-Ittisaal bis-Salaateen (pg. 81-82): It is well established in the Mighty Book (Qur`an) that we are commanded to obey the ruler. Allaah put obeying the rulers after obeying Him and obeying the Messenger (salallaahu 'alaihi wasallam). There are many ahaadeeth in the purified Sunnah, i.e. the main collections, and other books that state that it is obligatory to obey them [the rulers] and to be patient with their oppression.

One of the ahaadeeth in which the Prophet (salallaahu 'alaihi wasallam) commanded us to obey them [the rulers] consists of the words: '...even if he beats your back and takes your money.' It is also authentically reported on him (salallaahu 'alaihi wasallam) that he said: 'Give them what they are entitled to (of rights), and ask Allaah for what you are entitled to (of rights)."

Regardless, this doesn't add up to your belief in the 12th imam because your imam has not established tamkeem over the Muslims. He's been hiding in a cave for centuries and your satanic leaders collect "khums" onn his behalf.

In other words those who the devil has control over, you say we are obligated to obey them. This translates to we are obligated to obey Satan in some instances.

How much of the Quran is telling you not to obey him?
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

أبو ماريا المرزم

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Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2017, 08:52:50 PM »


In other words those who the devil has control over, you say we are obligated to obey them. This translates to we are obligated to obey Satan in some instances.

How much of the Quran is telling you not to obey him?
[/quote]

Strawman. Shaytan can only influence actions. People are responsible for their actions. No one else. The principle is that we obey the ruler, even if he's a tyrant, provided that what they order isn't a sin
They asked how many will be with the one I hate. I said 313

Abu Muhammad

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2017, 11:56:03 PM »

It is best to reject all false leadership and be leaderless, then follow the falsehood and call it true. It's better to acknowledge one is ignorant of oneself than to believe in a lie and call it "I".


You are talking about true leadership in your opening post but suddenly you post the above statement. So, "true leadership" is "to be led by no leader" or "be leaderless"?  :o

I'm so confuse right now... 

Link

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2017, 03:49:18 PM »

وَلاَ تَأْكُلُواْ مِمَّا لَمْ يُذْكَرِ اسْمُ اللّهِ عَلَيْهِ وَإِنَّهُ لَفِسْقٌ وَإِنَّ الشَّيَاطِينَ لَيُوحُونَ إِلَى أَوْلِيَآئِهِمْ لِيُجَادِلُوكُمْ وَإِنْ أَطَعْتُمُوهُمْ إِنَّكُمْ لَمُشْرِكُونَ {121

(6th Surah, verse 121)

So Satan inspires his friends, and if you obey Satan's friends, you are associating with God.

There is a whole theme in Quran, that Satan always misguided through positions of authority and power.

There is no doubt a whole theme in Quran that leadership and authority belong to certain people that God gives the authority to who and that it doesn't beseem others to try to take that mantle that he has negated that authority from.

You guys replace the Mastership of God by that of humans. You do it for your religious views, you do it for your political governance, you do it for practically everything.

Even our very selves are not supposed to have more right then the Messenger over ourselves.

How many verses in Quran are we told to obey God and the Messenger?

You believe that such authority of obedience is to be mixed and trusted to unjust people?

I've realized it doesn't matter how clear Quran and explict and repetitive it is about a subject, those who don't want to hear it and follow their desires will.

No doubt the family of Mohammad are part of Salah and Quran, and no doubt those who disbelieve in them are disconnected.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2017, 09:58:34 PM »
YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT YOUR WHIMSICAL-INVENTED QURANIC THEME THAT LEADERSHIP ONLY BELONGS TO GOD CHOSEN LEADER. BUT THAT LEADERSHIP BY THE SO-CALLED GOD CHOSEN LEADER HAS BEEN ABSENT FOR MORE THAN A MILLINEUM NOW. ISN'T THAT SOUND IRONIC? IN FACT, HOW CAN THE QURAN BE DECLARED BY ALLAH AS 'AL-HUDA' OR GUIDANCE IF THE VERY THEME IT TEACHES, IN REALITY CANNOT BE FOUND OR FOLLOWED ANYWHERE.

I CAN'T UNDERSTAND HOW HARD FOR YOU TO SEE THAT SIMPLE FACT.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 09:59:49 PM by Abu Muhammad »

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Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2017, 10:13:27 AM »
Salam

There are following stations that are interlinked but should be understood:


The issue of Messengerhood.

The issue of Nubuwa.

The issue of Succession.

The issue of Leadership.


As for the first three, most of the world were always in a state, where these things were not apparent to them.

For example, during Mohammad time,  other places have not received the message.  Most places thus "Message" is "hidden" from them.

Usually a Messenger is sent to a particular people and those people are suppose to help the Messenger spread the message.

For example, the Messengers risen in Bani-Israel were meant to be helped to spread the message to other humans.

Nubuwa encompasses Messengerhood, but it's not necessarily all Anbiya are Messengers. Contrary to what most people have said, it is not the case that most Prophets were not Messengers, but rather most Prophets were Messengers. This is because this only happens when a revelation from God is to be revealed to humans without need of reminding of all the fundementals and reviving the religion of God. When God's religion doesn't need revival, which would be a rare case given our history of rebellion, then God may send a revelation for the sake of increasing in enlightenment and guidance.

Succession is the idea that when God founds a nation with a founder, he associates others in succession to one another after that founder. This is introduced in Quran in the form of chosen families, and special offspring.  The sacred number to successors in Quran is Twelve.  These successors could be Messengers or Prophets that are not Messenger or just Captains that sail the ship by the name of God that are not either Messengers or Prophets. It happens to be that most Captains that sail the ship by the name of God are Messengers. For example, the Twelve Captains in Bani-Israel that succeeded Moses over all became Messengers.

Now most of humanity never had access to any of these streams from God physically.   

The "Sign" of guidance and the Guide thus has been "hidden" from humanity for the most part.

However when it comes to "Imammate", the Quran shows every human will be called with their "Imam". It also says that with regard to a witness from them.

So we can see, the majority of humanity, in all times, with respect to the Guide,  he is is a hidden being, who is connected to them all,  they are ignorant of who he is.

This perhaps why the Quran with regard to the pious, emphasizes they are believers in the unseen.

During Mohammad time, most people in the world didn't have access to him or his message.

This means the sign of his guidance and path, was hidden from most of humanity.

While a human doesn't need all the other type to necessarily be guided, he does need a guide and a leader to guide him.  He has a few choices in this respect. Rely on his own mind for that. Or he can turn to Jinn. Or he can realize only a guide chosen from God can be given leadership and authority with respect to his spiritual vision and journey.

Arabian society was entrenched in Jinn Worship.  But the Quran shows Jinn themselves were being called by Quran to the caller of God.

We cannot choose who our leader in the journey will be. The tree that leads to God, the firmly rooted in knowledge, are those God chooses for us to follow.

If you were in North America during Mohammad time, Mohammad would be your Guide. It's up to you then complain he is hidden from you, or you can realize the mystic link known as God's Name and face is connected to you.

The Quran among things is about manifesting a mystic link that binds us all.

Why we need 12 Imams, has to do with need of "successors".

Quran contains both Resalah and exclusively Nubuwa aspects. What I mean by the latter, is things, that are of higher knowledge that aren't necessarily conveyed to all the masses and brought down to all intellects.

It contains proofs of why God succeeds founders with successors, be they Messenger or Prophets or non-Prophets, these Twelve Captains are always are associated with one another to the extent they are "kin" "family" "near ones" to each other in ways other people are not.

Each thing has it's wisdom.

Because of all this "together" (combination) of revelation that extends the message to all, and has Nubuwa connecting back to God and high stages of ascension and knowledge, as well interpreters of the book and maintainers of the Sunna (way) of the Prophet that succeeded the final Prophet.

Because of protection of Quran.

This completes the religion and favor to humanity. That is there is rope extending to humanity to the outward (resalah) back with higher knowledge in the form of a book (nubuwa) and a leader that connects them to God in all stages and will guide them through out the journey (Imammate), and there is a legacy of knowledge from the Successors of the final Prophet (the Twelve Captains of God's final covenant).

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2017, 11:40:52 PM »
Wa'alaikumussalam wa rahmatullah,

I couldn't really figure out what you were actually trying to say, to be honest. It was so long winded, incoherent, disjointed, self-complicate explanation without having real purpose and in the end, arriving at nowhere.

Link

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2017, 05:09:28 PM »
Wa'alaikumussalam wa rahmatullah,

I couldn't really figure out what you were actually trying to say, to be honest. It was so long winded, incoherent, disjointed, self-complicate explanation without having real purpose and in the end, arriving at nowhere.

Ghayba has been default position for most of history of humanity. Minority of the world had access to Mohammad's teaching during Mohammad time for example.

There are three things you should see that are interlinked but are not the same:

1. Need of a founder.
2. Need of successors to that founder.
3. Need of a Guidance through a Guide.
4. The proof and manifestation of the path through a holy revelation/book.

Even if we deny the need of 3, the others might still hold ground.

The need of Imam Mahdi if we didn't a present day guidance from the guide, would be, so the world returns to a successor of the successors of the Prophet.

That they can come to realize they need to be ruled and governed by one appointed from God.

This means as God ought to be obeyed by the world, that they ought to come to Al-Mahdi and recognize him as the means to God.

This means he ought to be taken as ruler and leader, because God is the True King, whether the world obeys him or not, whether they disbelieve in him or not.

But I do believe there is spiritual guidance and the light of Al-Mahdi extends to the whole world.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Hani

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2017, 08:15:19 PM »
Remember guys the original topic is "True leadeship" vs "False leadership" or in the 12th Imam's case "No leadership".


I'll poke some fun at this:


Quote
[If you truly believe in God, it becomes intuitive that true ruler of humanity is Imam Mahdi. If you don't really believe God is the True King but just give lip service to God for the sake of a religious identity, and deceive yourself that you are a committed worshiper while associating others with his obedience and authority, then you become allergic to the guide being hidden.]


I'm allergic to a guide that doesn't do his job of guiding. A leader who doesn't fulfill his role of leading.


Quote
[However when it comes to "Imammate", the Quran shows every human will be called with their "Imam". It also says that with regard to a witness from them.]


What's your objection to us saying the Imam (example/leader) is the Prophet (saw) OR the Qur'an? Isn't that what `Ali taught us? That the Qur'an is our Imam?



Quote

If you are in love with God, you realize neither God nor Imam is hidden but is the most manifest thing we see.


God's signs are manifest for all those who reflect to see, except that "sign" called the 12th Imam, that so called "sign" is hidden and non-existent.



Quote

In fact we are more hidden (that is we are more ignorant of who we are as individuals) then God and Imam.


Don't throw philosophical words thinking it'll make you appear intelligent, what is manifest is the opposite.



Quote

According to noble hadiths,  to love the family of Mohammad always meant to make them the eyes by which see, the eyes to the head, or the mind to the body.


In our days, 70% of Muhammad's (saw) family at least are Sunni. How about you see with those eyes? Or maybe the five Christian Ahlul-Bayt families in Lebanon? Or some atheists from Ahlul-Bayt I personally know? Or maybe you should find that book written by Murtada's grandson which Ibn Tawus hid as it contained the scandals of many Hashemite households?


You lot have reduced this great universal religion to "Follow that Hashimi tribe", you're a slave to a family that's no more enlightened or guided than any of us. A political party that literally went crazy and sanctified its leaders, such narrow minds and blind hearts.



Quote

So Satan inspires his friends, and if you obey Satan's friends, you are associating with God.


We're refuting what Satan has whispered to you.



Quote

You guys replace the Mastership of God by that of humans. You do it for your religious views, you do it for your political governance, you do it for practically everything.


Key word "practically", the practicality of following a non-existent fellow was made so obvious to Shia that they decided "Hey Wilayat-ul-Faqih, why not?"


I have to admit, awarding authority to a flawed leader who has not obtained infallibility is a lot more practical and beneficial for Islam and Muslims than to await the phoenix.



Quote
How many verses in Quran are we told to obey God and the Messenger?You believe that such authority of obedience is to be mixed and trusted to unjust people?I've realized it doesn't matter how clear Quran and explict and repetitive it is about a subject, those who don't want to hear it and follow their desires will.

Actually, you're the repetitive one, how many times have we responded to your "Obey Ulil-Amr" argument before? You fail to deliver a convincing argument/rebuttal then you show up a month later in another thread repeating the same nonsense.



Quote

No doubt the family of Mohammad are part of Salah and Quran, and no doubt those who disbelieve in them are disconnected.


No they're not a part of Salah, saluting them is a Sunnah during prayer, it's not obligatory so I can pray without even mentioning them. However, during the Tashahhud you say:


 "Peace be upon you O prophet, peace be upon us and on God's righteous servants."


So we're all "a part of the Salat" and if you wish I can show you where we're all "a part of the Qur'an."


CONCLUSION:


Look son, if you're so adamant about following Muhammad bin al-Hasan, go ahead, we will tip our hats to you and you have all the freedom to emulate or worship this guy. Whenever you have questions, be sure to ask him, when you want instructions always consult with him, when you fall into deep troubles, always ask for his help and when facing the enemies make sure you rally behind him on the battlefield.


As for us, we're following example of God's prophet (saw), the instructions in God's Book, we'll be law abiding citizens who respect the rules of our governments while continuously striving to improve them.

« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 08:19:03 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

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Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2017, 01:17:40 AM »
Salam

Book of Moses was a leader but only to those who followed the leaders who Guide by God's command the twelve captains of the ship that moves and settles by the name of God.  Quran is Imam because the bayana and reminder is the Messenger and the family of the reminder cannot be separated from the quran.

The living understanding of Quran is the family of Taha and yaseen. 

Abraham was a leader to humanity but his offspring inherited the position.

If dead prophets became the guides for generations that follow then people can claim any figure to be the spiritual guide of time.

The followers of truth are always provided a leader lest truth had no way to be proven by them and falsehood becomes on equal footing.

Say there was no need of present day guide alive that does not negate the need of:

1. Spiritual guidance of a leader (be he dead or alive)

2. Need of successors to the founder

3. Need of clarification of their number

4.  Need of an authority from god who authority would be the means of the world coming to justice.

The leader and guide and witness has always been a living person In the past.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2017, 03:36:07 PM »

Quote
[However when it comes to "Imammate", the Quran shows every human will be called with their "Imam". It also says that with regard to a witness from them.]

What's your objection to us saying the Imam (example/leader) is the Prophet (saw) OR the Qur'an? Isn't that what `Ali taught us? That the Qur'an is our Imam?


Very true. That's what we Sunnis believe in. From both the Quran and sunnah, all sorts of branches of rich Islamic diciplines are derived and that will continue until yaum Al-qiyamah. Only a deluded person going to deny that fact.

Indeed, true is Allah's words when He said:

1) In Surah Al-Isra' ayah 9:

إِنَّ هَٰذَا الْقُرْآنَ يَهْدِي لِلَّتِي هِيَ أَقْوَمُ وَيُبَشِّرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ الَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ الصَّالِحَاتِ أَنَّ لَهُمْ أَجْرًا كَبِيرًا

Indeed,  this  Qur'an  guides  to  that  which  is  most  suitable  and  gives  good  tidings  to  the believers  who  do  righteous  deeds  that  they  will  have  a  great  reward.

2) In Surah Al-Ahzab ayah 21:

لَقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِمَنْ كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

There  has  certainly  been  for  you  in  the  Messenger  of Allah an  excellent  pattern  for anyone  whose  hope  is  in Allah and  the  Last  Day  and  [who]  remembers Allah often.

Compared that to the so called hiddened "true" leader claimed by Link. What example or guidance the so-called hiddened "true" leader has shown his followers to live their lives as true muslims?

The matter of fact, whatever laws they derive are coming from their dead imams (mainly Al-Baqir and As-Sadiq) and not that hiddened "true" leader or "imam of this age".
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 03:38:20 PM by Abu Muhammad »

Link

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2017, 06:34:39 PM »

Quote
[However when it comes to "Imammate", the Quran shows every human will be called with their "Imam". It also says that with regard to a witness from them.]

What's your objection to us saying the Imam (example/leader) is the Prophet (saw) OR the Qur'an? Isn't that what `Ali taught us? That the Qur'an is our Imam?


Very true. That's what we Sunnis believe in. From both the Quran and sunnah, all sorts of branches of rich Islamic diciplines are derived and that will continue until yaum Al-qiyamah. Only a deluded person going to deny that fact.

Indeed, true is Allah's words when He said:

1) In Surah Al-Isra' ayah 9:

إِنَّ هَٰذَا الْقُرْآنَ يَهْدِي لِلَّتِي هِيَ أَقْوَمُ وَيُبَشِّرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ الَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ الصَّالِحَاتِ أَنَّ لَهُمْ أَجْرًا كَبِيرًا

Indeed,  this  Qur'an  guides  to  that  which  is  most  suitable  and  gives  good  tidings  to  the believers  who  do  righteous  deeds  that  they  will  have  a  great  reward.

2) In Surah Al-Ahzab ayah 21:

لَقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِمَنْ كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

There  has  certainly  been  for  you  in  the  Messenger  of Allah an  excellent  pattern  for anyone  whose  hope  is  in Allah and  the  Last  Day  and  [who]  remembers Allah often.

Compared that to the so called hiddened "true" leader claimed by Link. What example or guidance the so-called hiddened "true" leader has shown his followers to live their lives as true muslims?

The matter of fact, whatever laws they derive are coming from their dead imams (mainly Al-Baqir and As-Sadiq) and not that hiddened "true" leader or "imam of this age".

Actions are a state of being. Words are words. The right "honesty" and "patience" is a state, actions themselves are a state, the Imams of guidance they been revealed good acts, God shows them the states, both for them to follow and to show their followers.

You are right as far outward words go,  Imam Mahdi is not what we use for that. We use the Twelve Captains of the past associated with him, the Messenger of God down to the 11th Imam, as well his pure mother Fatima.

Satan uses his minions for outward words, and misguides through them, but the main misguidance is not from the words of men under his control, but from states that he inspires people to follow through his army of hidden beings (Jinn) that watch us.

The fact is we have many watchers that see us, but they don't truly see us, because they themselves are blind. 

We need to combat the eyes of Iblis army with that of vision from true eyes. The Quran shows we will be called with a witness from ourselves.

It also states every people will be called with their Leader.  The sense of "Messenger" type leadership, Bani-Israel had 13 of those, starting with Moses and then 12 Captains who succeeded him.  Many verses show that he was followed up by Messengers, we can conclude even Talut eventually became a Messenger.

But they had one Captain for the ship that sails by the name of God during their time in the sense, that he would lead them on their inward journey.

In the sense of "Ulil-Amr" (those who possess the authority), Imam Ali remains that, so does Al-Hassan, so does Al-Hussain, and you are right, we take guidance regarding "referring to God and the Messenger" through the Ulil-Amr.

But as far as referring to "the Nabi", then Nubuwa has higher knowledge not always conveyed in Resalah, although we get a scent of it through Resalah and it's conveyed to us. The Quran connects to the highest possible states, but to hear the Quran in that state, we must hear with the ears of the Guide of our time.

Just as Satan can make us see and hear according to falsehood, the Guide of our time can help us and aide us by lending light/water/rain and being with us in ways we do not understand.

You believe the envious eye of mere low creatures can have effect on a soul and afflict him with negative influence, I don't see why you don't believe the witness can help us with his vision and guide us, and influence us positively.

While it makes sense there is many falsehoods and paths to falsehood making a need of many Shayateen, when it comes to the path to travel to God and what we must do, and wisdom, it makes sense the chosen ones who inherit the book and race ahead all in good deeds from the servants of God are those entrusted to make us see and manifest the wonders of unseen beauty and majesty.

Indeed all past Guides can help our sword of honor and vest us with spiritual help, as they do time to time, but the one who is perpetually the leader and guide and witness over us, is the one who the Quran says "the day every people will be with their Imam", and "when every people will be called with a witness from themselves".

May God increase us in guidance and faith in the unseen.

« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 06:36:59 PM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2017, 10:05:15 PM »
I have a question for you Link.

Who will be your imam on "the day every people will be with their Imam"?

P.S. You certainly need to learn the beautiful art of "jawami'ul kalim" (the art possesed by the greatest of all imams, Muhammad Al-Mustafa s.a.w.). Concise statement but full of meaning. Not the other way round

 

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