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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Imamah-Ghaybah => Topic started by: Link on February 19, 2017, 04:33:36 PM

Title: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on February 19, 2017, 04:33:36 PM
A god can be used in two contexts, one that it refers to an object that is worshiped, or two, that it refers to a being that ought to be worshiped.

When a person includes the word "true", as in the "the true God", it implies that true being that ought to be worshipped.....

Likewise when it says there is no God, but God, the "no god..." implies there exists no beings that ought to be worshipped but God.

I make the following proposition and tell me if you disagree.

King in Quran has two meanings. That of an entity that is taken as a sovereign authority over them, and 2ndly that of an entity that ought to be taken as a sovereign authority over them.

Leader in Quran has two meanings. That of an entity that ought to be followed, and that of entity that is followed.


When it says for example that God is the true king, or the king in truth, then it implies there are also false kings. Now people taken as sovereign authorities cannot be undone by this, they are taken as that, whether by truth or falsehood.

Likewise when it says "the day every human will be called with their leader" and other verses showing "the day every people will be called with a witness from themselves", that is to say the true leader they had, the one that ought to be taken as a leader for how they live their life, by which the book of their is written and their deeds accounted for,  is that person, it is not who they simply choose to follow.

People choose to follow multiple people in their lives, and the Quran even uses "their awliya are the Taghut", but Quran is showing as for the one they ought to follow and make that person the leader in all aspects of their lives is one and only one person.

The means Allah becomes the Wali of believers and takes them to the light, is through guidance he appoints. At the interior of it all, is the light of the Sun he appointed. Recognizing the true light and coming into the perception of the vision of God of oneself is key, while not recognizing one will be entangled in false perception and falsehood, and will perceive himself and others through eyes generated by the sorcery of the devils of the Jinn and humans.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on February 20, 2017, 11:25:52 PM
It still baffling me to this day that there are still exist a people who are following a leader who isn't leading for more than a thousand years and they call that a true leadership...
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on February 20, 2017, 11:33:05 PM
It still baffling me to this day that there are still exist a people who are following a leader who isn't leading for more than a thousand years and they call that a true leadership...

It is best to reject all false leadership and be leaderless, then follow the falsehood and call it true. It's better to acknowledge one is ignorant of oneself than to believe in a lie and call it "I".

But that said, those who believe in the unseen, these are the people who are linked with being successful. It is these who will see with the eyes meant to be look by, these will enter into the vision of God, these will enter in the name of God by the name of God.

It's better to be in the desert awaiting the guidance of God and awaiting the time to being guided and lead by God and his appointed Guardian and Master over humanity, then to follow a person without proof.

Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Farid on February 21, 2017, 07:58:06 AM
Many false leaders have built economies, created peace, protected their citizens, and spread the word of La ilaha illa Allah.

All we know of this longest running hidden ruler that you have is that he doesn't exist according to his uncle.

It is a pity that Shias are so gullible to believe that their khums is going to him, when Al Jawad himself could do nothing to Salih bin Mohammad bin Sahl, who freely stole the khums. Salih came to him and said, "Forgive me." Al Jawad said, "You are forgiven." Then, upon leaving, Al Jawad curses the man.

This is how powerless an Imam who actually existed was according to an authentic Shia hadith. The very suggestion that a "hidden" Imam is more competant with the khums funds is laughable.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on February 25, 2017, 03:11:13 AM
Do you believe there have been any rulers (in the sense they are taken as rulers) that ought to not rule?

Do you believe there have been any leaders that ought to be not taken as leaders?
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: أبو ماريا المرزم on March 02, 2017, 05:08:31 PM
A god can be used in two contexts, one that it refers to an object that is worshiped, or two, that it refers to a being that ought to be worshiped.

When a person includes the word "true", as in the "the true God", it implies that true being that ought to be worshipped.....

Likewise when it says there is no God, but God, the "no god..." implies there exists no beings that ought to be worshipped but God.

I make the following proposition and tell me if you disagree.

King in Quran has two meanings. That of an entity that is taken as a sovereign authority over them, and 2ndly that of an entity that ought to be taken as a sovereign authority over them.

Leader in Quran has two meanings. That of an entity that ought to be followed, and that of entity that is followed.


When it says for example that God is the true king, or the king in truth, then it implies there are also false kings. Now people taken as sovereign authorities cannot be undone by this, they are taken as that, whether by truth or falsehood.

Likewise when it says "the day every human will be called with their leader" and other verses showing "the day every people will be called with a witness from themselves", that is to say the true leader they had, the one that ought to be taken as a leader for how they live their life, by which the book of their is written and their deeds accounted for,  is that person, it is not who they simply choose to follow.

People choose to follow multiple people in their lives, and the Quran even uses "their awliya are the Taghut", but Quran is showing as for the one they ought to follow and make that person the leader in all aspects of their lives is one and only one person.

The means Allah becomes the Wali of believers and takes them to the light, is through guidance he appoints. At the interior of it all, is the light of the Sun he appointed. Recognizing the true light and coming into the perception of the vision of God of oneself is key, while not recognizing one will be entangled in false perception and falsehood, and will perceive himself and others through eyes generated by the sorcery of the devils of the Jinn and humans.

Abdulmalik Ibn Marwan Ibn Al Hakam was the ummayad leader who sent Al Hajjaj Ibn Yusuf to take out Ibn Zubayr(ra) Hajjaj crucified Ibn Zubayr(ra) and he even catapulted the kaaba. This same Ibn Marwan also aided in the Al Aqsa masjid.

Imaam Ash-Shawkaanee (died 1250 A.H.) said in his book Raf'-ul-Asaateen fee Hukm-il-Ittisaal bis-Salaateen (pg. 81-82): It is well established in the Mighty Book (Qur`an) that we are commanded to obey the ruler. Allaah put obeying the rulers after obeying Him and obeying the Messenger (salallaahu 'alaihi wasallam). There are many ahaadeeth in the purified Sunnah, i.e. the main collections, and other books that state that it is obligatory to obey them [the rulers] and to be patient with their oppression.

One of the ahaadeeth in which the Prophet (salallaahu 'alaihi wasallam) commanded us to obey them [the rulers] consists of the words: '...even if he beats your back and takes your money.' It is also authentically reported on him (salallaahu 'alaihi wasallam) that he said: 'Give them what they are entitled to (of rights), and ask Allaah for what you are entitled to (of rights)."

Regardless, this doesn't add up to your belief in the 12th imam because your imam has not established tamkeem over the Muslims. He's been hiding in a cave for centuries and your satanic leaders collect "khums" onn his behalf.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 03, 2017, 11:06:54 AM
Do you believe God is the True King of the world?

Is it through Quran he is the full authority on all humanity and Jinn even though there came periods and times with many places (majority of the world at one point) who didn't have access to Quran teachings?

Even though the Sign has been hidden,  essentially, the true way God rules humanity is through his command and light brought down,  his seat encompasses all things and all things are found in the throne.

The truth of the very notion that we must believe in God and obey him, is rooted in the spiritual realm which are hearts are connected to.

The notion we are connected to God by some great reality which Quran calls "name of God", is no doubt rooted in our hearts.

The name of God rules humanity, and the Quran shows Mohammad is the name of God.

It shows the Leader and Guide of time is the name of God/face of God.

If you truly believe in God, it becomes intuitive that true ruler of humanity is Imam Mahdi. If you don't really believe God is the True King but just give lip service to God for the sake of a religious identity, and deceive yourself that you are a committed worshiper while associating others with his obedience and authority, then you become allergic to the guide being hidden.

If you are in love with God, you realize neither God nor Imam is hidden but is the most manifest thing we see.

In fact we are more hidden (that is we are more ignorant of who we are as individuals) then God and Imam.

The Quran through out talks about the barrier on disbelievers, and talks about how believers see the light.

According to noble hadiths,  to love the family of Mohammad always meant to make them the eyes by which see, the eyes to the head, or the mind to the body.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 03, 2017, 11:15:57 AM
A god can be used in two contexts, one that it refers to an object that is worshiped, or two, that it refers to a being that ought to be worshiped.

When a person includes the word "true", as in the "the true God", it implies that true being that ought to be worshipped.....

Likewise when it says there is no God, but God, the "no god..." implies there exists no beings that ought to be worshipped but God.

I make the following proposition and tell me if you disagree.

King in Quran has two meanings. That of an entity that is taken as a sovereign authority over them, and 2ndly that of an entity that ought to be taken as a sovereign authority over them.

Leader in Quran has two meanings. That of an entity that ought to be followed, and that of entity that is followed.


When it says for example that God is the true king, or the king in truth, then it implies there are also false kings. Now people taken as sovereign authorities cannot be undone by this, they are taken as that, whether by truth or falsehood.

Likewise when it says "the day every human will be called with their leader" and other verses showing "the day every people will be called with a witness from themselves", that is to say the true leader they had, the one that ought to be taken as a leader for how they live their life, by which the book of their is written and their deeds accounted for,  is that person, it is not who they simply choose to follow.

People choose to follow multiple people in their lives, and the Quran even uses "their awliya are the Taghut", but Quran is showing as for the one they ought to follow and make that person the leader in all aspects of their lives is one and only one person.

The means Allah becomes the Wali of believers and takes them to the light, is through guidance he appoints. At the interior of it all, is the light of the Sun he appointed. Recognizing the true light and coming into the perception of the vision of God of oneself is key, while not recognizing one will be entangled in false perception and falsehood, and will perceive himself and others through eyes generated by the sorcery of the devils of the Jinn and humans.

Abdulmalik Ibn Marwan Ibn Al Hakam was the ummayad leader who sent Al Hajjaj Ibn Yusuf to take out Ibn Zubayr(ra) Hajjaj crucified Ibn Zubayr(ra) and he even catapulted the kaaba. This same Ibn Marwan also aided in the Al Aqsa masjid.

Imaam Ash-Shawkaanee (died 1250 A.H.) said in his book Raf'-ul-Asaateen fee Hukm-il-Ittisaal bis-Salaateen (pg. 81-82): It is well established in the Mighty Book (Qur`an) that we are commanded to obey the ruler. Allaah put obeying the rulers after obeying Him and obeying the Messenger (salallaahu 'alaihi wasallam). There are many ahaadeeth in the purified Sunnah, i.e. the main collections, and other books that state that it is obligatory to obey them [the rulers] and to be patient with their oppression.

One of the ahaadeeth in which the Prophet (salallaahu 'alaihi wasallam) commanded us to obey them [the rulers] consists of the words: '...even if he beats your back and takes your money.' It is also authentically reported on him (salallaahu 'alaihi wasallam) that he said: 'Give them what they are entitled to (of rights), and ask Allaah for what you are entitled to (of rights)."

Regardless, this doesn't add up to your belief in the 12th imam because your imam has not established tamkeem over the Muslims. He's been hiding in a cave for centuries and your satanic leaders collect "khums" onn his behalf.

In other words those who the devil has control over, you say we are obligated to obey them. This translates to we are obligated to obey Satan in some instances.

How much of the Quran is telling you not to obey him?
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: أبو ماريا المرزم on March 03, 2017, 08:52:50 PM


In other words those who the devil has control over, you say we are obligated to obey them. This translates to we are obligated to obey Satan in some instances.

How much of the Quran is telling you not to obey him?
[/quote]

Strawman. Shaytan can only influence actions. People are responsible for their actions. No one else. The principle is that we obey the ruler, even if he's a tyrant, provided that what they order isn't a sin
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 03, 2017, 11:56:03 PM

It is best to reject all false leadership and be leaderless, then follow the falsehood and call it true. It's better to acknowledge one is ignorant of oneself than to believe in a lie and call it "I".


You are talking about true leadership in your opening post but suddenly you post the above statement. So, "true leadership" is "to be led by no leader" or "be leaderless"?  :o

I'm so confuse right now... 
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 04, 2017, 03:49:18 PM

وَلاَ تَأْكُلُواْ مِمَّا لَمْ يُذْكَرِ اسْمُ اللّهِ عَلَيْهِ وَإِنَّهُ لَفِسْقٌ وَإِنَّ الشَّيَاطِينَ لَيُوحُونَ إِلَى أَوْلِيَآئِهِمْ لِيُجَادِلُوكُمْ وَإِنْ أَطَعْتُمُوهُمْ إِنَّكُمْ لَمُشْرِكُونَ {121

(6th Surah, verse 121)

So Satan inspires his friends, and if you obey Satan's friends, you are associating with God.

There is a whole theme in Quran, that Satan always misguided through positions of authority and power.

There is no doubt a whole theme in Quran that leadership and authority belong to certain people that God gives the authority to who and that it doesn't beseem others to try to take that mantle that he has negated that authority from.

You guys replace the Mastership of God by that of humans. You do it for your religious views, you do it for your political governance, you do it for practically everything.

Even our very selves are not supposed to have more right then the Messenger over ourselves.

How many verses in Quran are we told to obey God and the Messenger?

You believe that such authority of obedience is to be mixed and trusted to unjust people?

I've realized it doesn't matter how clear Quran and explict and repetitive it is about a subject, those who don't want to hear it and follow their desires will.

No doubt the family of Mohammad are part of Salah and Quran, and no doubt those who disbelieve in them are disconnected.

Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 06, 2017, 09:58:34 PM
YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT YOUR WHIMSICAL-INVENTED QURANIC THEME THAT LEADERSHIP ONLY BELONGS TO GOD CHOSEN LEADER. BUT THAT LEADERSHIP BY THE SO-CALLED GOD CHOSEN LEADER HAS BEEN ABSENT FOR MORE THAN A MILLINEUM NOW. ISN'T THAT SOUND IRONIC? IN FACT, HOW CAN THE QURAN BE DECLARED BY ALLAH AS 'AL-HUDA' OR GUIDANCE IF THE VERY THEME IT TEACHES, IN REALITY CANNOT BE FOUND OR FOLLOWED ANYWHERE.

I CAN'T UNDERSTAND HOW HARD FOR YOU TO SEE THAT SIMPLE FACT.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 07, 2017, 10:13:27 AM
Salam

There are following stations that are interlinked but should be understood:


The issue of Messengerhood.

The issue of Nubuwa.

The issue of Succession.

The issue of Leadership.


As for the first three, most of the world were always in a state, where these things were not apparent to them.

For example, during Mohammad time,  other places have not received the message.  Most places thus "Message" is "hidden" from them.

Usually a Messenger is sent to a particular people and those people are suppose to help the Messenger spread the message.

For example, the Messengers risen in Bani-Israel were meant to be helped to spread the message to other humans.

Nubuwa encompasses Messengerhood, but it's not necessarily all Anbiya are Messengers. Contrary to what most people have said, it is not the case that most Prophets were not Messengers, but rather most Prophets were Messengers. This is because this only happens when a revelation from God is to be revealed to humans without need of reminding of all the fundementals and reviving the religion of God. When God's religion doesn't need revival, which would be a rare case given our history of rebellion, then God may send a revelation for the sake of increasing in enlightenment and guidance.

Succession is the idea that when God founds a nation with a founder, he associates others in succession to one another after that founder. This is introduced in Quran in the form of chosen families, and special offspring.  The sacred number to successors in Quran is Twelve.  These successors could be Messengers or Prophets that are not Messenger or just Captains that sail the ship by the name of God that are not either Messengers or Prophets. It happens to be that most Captains that sail the ship by the name of God are Messengers. For example, the Twelve Captains in Bani-Israel that succeeded Moses over all became Messengers.

Now most of humanity never had access to any of these streams from God physically.   

The "Sign" of guidance and the Guide thus has been "hidden" from humanity for the most part.

However when it comes to "Imammate", the Quran shows every human will be called with their "Imam". It also says that with regard to a witness from them.

So we can see, the majority of humanity, in all times, with respect to the Guide,  he is is a hidden being, who is connected to them all,  they are ignorant of who he is.

This perhaps why the Quran with regard to the pious, emphasizes they are believers in the unseen.

During Mohammad time, most people in the world didn't have access to him or his message.

This means the sign of his guidance and path, was hidden from most of humanity.

While a human doesn't need all the other type to necessarily be guided, he does need a guide and a leader to guide him.  He has a few choices in this respect. Rely on his own mind for that. Or he can turn to Jinn. Or he can realize only a guide chosen from God can be given leadership and authority with respect to his spiritual vision and journey.

Arabian society was entrenched in Jinn Worship.  But the Quran shows Jinn themselves were being called by Quran to the caller of God.

We cannot choose who our leader in the journey will be. The tree that leads to God, the firmly rooted in knowledge, are those God chooses for us to follow.

If you were in North America during Mohammad time, Mohammad would be your Guide. It's up to you then complain he is hidden from you, or you can realize the mystic link known as God's Name and face is connected to you.

The Quran among things is about manifesting a mystic link that binds us all.

Why we need 12 Imams, has to do with need of "successors".

Quran contains both Resalah and exclusively Nubuwa aspects. What I mean by the latter, is things, that are of higher knowledge that aren't necessarily conveyed to all the masses and brought down to all intellects.

It contains proofs of why God succeeds founders with successors, be they Messenger or Prophets or non-Prophets, these Twelve Captains are always are associated with one another to the extent they are "kin" "family" "near ones" to each other in ways other people are not.

Each thing has it's wisdom.

Because of all this "together" (combination) of revelation that extends the message to all, and has Nubuwa connecting back to God and high stages of ascension and knowledge, as well interpreters of the book and maintainers of the Sunna (way) of the Prophet that succeeded the final Prophet.

Because of protection of Quran.

This completes the religion and favor to humanity. That is there is rope extending to humanity to the outward (resalah) back with higher knowledge in the form of a book (nubuwa) and a leader that connects them to God in all stages and will guide them through out the journey (Imammate), and there is a legacy of knowledge from the Successors of the final Prophet (the Twelve Captains of God's final covenant).

Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 08, 2017, 11:40:52 PM
Wa'alaikumussalam wa rahmatullah,

I couldn't really figure out what you were actually trying to say, to be honest. It was so long winded, incoherent, disjointed, self-complicate explanation without having real purpose and in the end, arriving at nowhere.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 09, 2017, 05:09:28 PM
Wa'alaikumussalam wa rahmatullah,

I couldn't really figure out what you were actually trying to say, to be honest. It was so long winded, incoherent, disjointed, self-complicate explanation without having real purpose and in the end, arriving at nowhere.

Ghayba has been default position for most of history of humanity. Minority of the world had access to Mohammad's teaching during Mohammad time for example.

There are three things you should see that are interlinked but are not the same:

1. Need of a founder.
2. Need of successors to that founder.
3. Need of a Guidance through a Guide.
4. The proof and manifestation of the path through a holy revelation/book.

Even if we deny the need of 3, the others might still hold ground.

The need of Imam Mahdi if we didn't a present day guidance from the guide, would be, so the world returns to a successor of the successors of the Prophet.

That they can come to realize they need to be ruled and governed by one appointed from God.

This means as God ought to be obeyed by the world, that they ought to come to Al-Mahdi and recognize him as the means to God.

This means he ought to be taken as ruler and leader, because God is the True King, whether the world obeys him or not, whether they disbelieve in him or not.

But I do believe there is spiritual guidance and the light of Al-Mahdi extends to the whole world.

Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Hani on March 09, 2017, 08:15:19 PM
Remember guys the original topic is "True leadeship" vs "False leadership" or in the 12th Imam's case "No leadership".


I'll poke some fun at this:


Quote
[If you truly believe in God, it becomes intuitive that true ruler of humanity is Imam Mahdi. If you don't really believe God is the True King but just give lip service to God for the sake of a religious identity, and deceive yourself that you are a committed worshiper while associating others with his obedience and authority, then you become allergic to the guide being hidden.]


I'm allergic to a guide that doesn't do his job of guiding. A leader who doesn't fulfill his role of leading.


Quote
[However when it comes to "Imammate", the Quran shows every human will be called with their "Imam". It also says that with regard to a witness from them.]


What's your objection to us saying the Imam (example/leader) is the Prophet (saw) OR the Qur'an? Isn't that what `Ali taught us? That the Qur'an is our Imam?



Quote

If you are in love with God, you realize neither God nor Imam is hidden but is the most manifest thing we see.


God's signs are manifest for all those who reflect to see, except that "sign" called the 12th Imam, that so called "sign" is hidden and non-existent.



Quote

In fact we are more hidden (that is we are more ignorant of who we are as individuals) then God and Imam.


Don't throw philosophical words thinking it'll make you appear intelligent, what is manifest is the opposite.



Quote

According to noble hadiths,  to love the family of Mohammad always meant to make them the eyes by which see, the eyes to the head, or the mind to the body.


In our days, 70% of Muhammad's (saw) family at least are Sunni. How about you see with those eyes? Or maybe the five Christian Ahlul-Bayt families in Lebanon? Or some atheists from Ahlul-Bayt I personally know? Or maybe you should find that book written by Murtada's grandson which Ibn Tawus hid as it contained the scandals of many Hashemite households?


You lot have reduced this great universal religion to "Follow that Hashimi tribe", you're a slave to a family that's no more enlightened or guided than any of us. A political party that literally went crazy and sanctified its leaders, such narrow minds and blind hearts.



Quote

So Satan inspires his friends, and if you obey Satan's friends, you are associating with God.


We're refuting what Satan has whispered to you.



Quote

You guys replace the Mastership of God by that of humans. You do it for your religious views, you do it for your political governance, you do it for practically everything.


Key word "practically", the practicality of following a non-existent fellow was made so obvious to Shia that they decided "Hey Wilayat-ul-Faqih, why not?"


I have to admit, awarding authority to a flawed leader who has not obtained infallibility is a lot more practical and beneficial for Islam and Muslims than to await the phoenix.



Quote
How many verses in Quran are we told to obey God and the Messenger?You believe that such authority of obedience is to be mixed and trusted to unjust people?I've realized it doesn't matter how clear Quran and explict and repetitive it is about a subject, those who don't want to hear it and follow their desires will.

Actually, you're the repetitive one, how many times have we responded to your "Obey Ulil-Amr" argument before? You fail to deliver a convincing argument/rebuttal then you show up a month later in another thread repeating the same nonsense.



Quote

No doubt the family of Mohammad are part of Salah and Quran, and no doubt those who disbelieve in them are disconnected.


No they're not a part of Salah, saluting them is a Sunnah during prayer, it's not obligatory so I can pray without even mentioning them. However, during the Tashahhud you say:


 "Peace be upon you O prophet, peace be upon us and on God's righteous servants."


So we're all "a part of the Salat" and if you wish I can show you where we're all "a part of the Qur'an."


CONCLUSION:


Look son, if you're so adamant about following Muhammad bin al-Hasan, go ahead, we will tip our hats to you and you have all the freedom to emulate or worship this guy. Whenever you have questions, be sure to ask him, when you want instructions always consult with him, when you fall into deep troubles, always ask for his help and when facing the enemies make sure you rally behind him on the battlefield.


As for us, we're following example of God's prophet (saw), the instructions in God's Book, we'll be law abiding citizens who respect the rules of our governments while continuously striving to improve them.

Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 10, 2017, 01:17:40 AM
Salam

Book of Moses was a leader but only to those who followed the leaders who Guide by God's command the twelve captains of the ship that moves and settles by the name of God.  Quran is Imam because the bayana and reminder is the Messenger and the family of the reminder cannot be separated from the quran.

The living understanding of Quran is the family of Taha and yaseen. 

Abraham was a leader to humanity but his offspring inherited the position.

If dead prophets became the guides for generations that follow then people can claim any figure to be the spiritual guide of time.

The followers of truth are always provided a leader lest truth had no way to be proven by them and falsehood becomes on equal footing.

Say there was no need of present day guide alive that does not negate the need of:

1. Spiritual guidance of a leader (be he dead or alive)

2. Need of successors to the founder

3. Need of clarification of their number

4.  Need of an authority from god who authority would be the means of the world coming to justice.

The leader and guide and witness has always been a living person In the past.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 10, 2017, 03:36:07 PM

Quote
[However when it comes to "Imammate", the Quran shows every human will be called with their "Imam". It also says that with regard to a witness from them.]

What's your objection to us saying the Imam (example/leader) is the Prophet (saw) OR the Qur'an? Isn't that what `Ali taught us? That the Qur'an is our Imam?


Very true. That's what we Sunnis believe in. From both the Quran and sunnah, all sorts of branches of rich Islamic diciplines are derived and that will continue until yaum Al-qiyamah. Only a deluded person going to deny that fact.

Indeed, true is Allah's words when He said:

1) In Surah Al-Isra' ayah 9:

إِنَّ هَٰذَا الْقُرْآنَ يَهْدِي لِلَّتِي هِيَ أَقْوَمُ وَيُبَشِّرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ الَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ الصَّالِحَاتِ أَنَّ لَهُمْ أَجْرًا كَبِيرًا

Indeed,  this  Qur'an  guides  to  that  which  is  most  suitable  and  gives  good  tidings  to  the believers  who  do  righteous  deeds  that  they  will  have  a  great  reward.

2) In Surah Al-Ahzab ayah 21:

لَقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِمَنْ كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

There  has  certainly  been  for  you  in  the  Messenger  of Allah an  excellent  pattern  for anyone  whose  hope  is  in Allah and  the  Last  Day  and  [who]  remembers Allah often.

Compared that to the so called hiddened "true" leader claimed by Link. What example or guidance the so-called hiddened "true" leader has shown his followers to live their lives as true muslims?

The matter of fact, whatever laws they derive are coming from their dead imams (mainly Al-Baqir and As-Sadiq) and not that hiddened "true" leader or "imam of this age".
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 10, 2017, 06:34:39 PM

Quote
[However when it comes to "Imammate", the Quran shows every human will be called with their "Imam". It also says that with regard to a witness from them.]

What's your objection to us saying the Imam (example/leader) is the Prophet (saw) OR the Qur'an? Isn't that what `Ali taught us? That the Qur'an is our Imam?


Very true. That's what we Sunnis believe in. From both the Quran and sunnah, all sorts of branches of rich Islamic diciplines are derived and that will continue until yaum Al-qiyamah. Only a deluded person going to deny that fact.

Indeed, true is Allah's words when He said:

1) In Surah Al-Isra' ayah 9:

إِنَّ هَٰذَا الْقُرْآنَ يَهْدِي لِلَّتِي هِيَ أَقْوَمُ وَيُبَشِّرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ الَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ الصَّالِحَاتِ أَنَّ لَهُمْ أَجْرًا كَبِيرًا

Indeed,  this  Qur'an  guides  to  that  which  is  most  suitable  and  gives  good  tidings  to  the believers  who  do  righteous  deeds  that  they  will  have  a  great  reward.

2) In Surah Al-Ahzab ayah 21:

لَقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِمَنْ كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

There  has  certainly  been  for  you  in  the  Messenger  of Allah an  excellent  pattern  for anyone  whose  hope  is  in Allah and  the  Last  Day  and  [who]  remembers Allah often.

Compared that to the so called hiddened "true" leader claimed by Link. What example or guidance the so-called hiddened "true" leader has shown his followers to live their lives as true muslims?

The matter of fact, whatever laws they derive are coming from their dead imams (mainly Al-Baqir and As-Sadiq) and not that hiddened "true" leader or "imam of this age".

Actions are a state of being. Words are words. The right "honesty" and "patience" is a state, actions themselves are a state, the Imams of guidance they been revealed good acts, God shows them the states, both for them to follow and to show their followers.

You are right as far outward words go,  Imam Mahdi is not what we use for that. We use the Twelve Captains of the past associated with him, the Messenger of God down to the 11th Imam, as well his pure mother Fatima.

Satan uses his minions for outward words, and misguides through them, but the main misguidance is not from the words of men under his control, but from states that he inspires people to follow through his army of hidden beings (Jinn) that watch us.

The fact is we have many watchers that see us, but they don't truly see us, because they themselves are blind. 

We need to combat the eyes of Iblis army with that of vision from true eyes. The Quran shows we will be called with a witness from ourselves.

It also states every people will be called with their Leader.  The sense of "Messenger" type leadership, Bani-Israel had 13 of those, starting with Moses and then 12 Captains who succeeded him.  Many verses show that he was followed up by Messengers, we can conclude even Talut eventually became a Messenger.

But they had one Captain for the ship that sails by the name of God during their time in the sense, that he would lead them on their inward journey.

In the sense of "Ulil-Amr" (those who possess the authority), Imam Ali remains that, so does Al-Hassan, so does Al-Hussain, and you are right, we take guidance regarding "referring to God and the Messenger" through the Ulil-Amr.

But as far as referring to "the Nabi", then Nubuwa has higher knowledge not always conveyed in Resalah, although we get a scent of it through Resalah and it's conveyed to us. The Quran connects to the highest possible states, but to hear the Quran in that state, we must hear with the ears of the Guide of our time.

Just as Satan can make us see and hear according to falsehood, the Guide of our time can help us and aide us by lending light/water/rain and being with us in ways we do not understand.

You believe the envious eye of mere low creatures can have effect on a soul and afflict him with negative influence, I don't see why you don't believe the witness can help us with his vision and guide us, and influence us positively.

While it makes sense there is many falsehoods and paths to falsehood making a need of many Shayateen, when it comes to the path to travel to God and what we must do, and wisdom, it makes sense the chosen ones who inherit the book and race ahead all in good deeds from the servants of God are those entrusted to make us see and manifest the wonders of unseen beauty and majesty.

Indeed all past Guides can help our sword of honor and vest us with spiritual help, as they do time to time, but the one who is perpetually the leader and guide and witness over us, is the one who the Quran says "the day every people will be with their Imam", and "when every people will be called with a witness from themselves".

May God increase us in guidance and faith in the unseen.

Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 10, 2017, 10:05:15 PM
I have a question for you Link.

Who will be your imam on "the day every people will be with their Imam"?

P.S. You certainly need to learn the beautiful art of "jawami'ul kalim" (the art possesed by the greatest of all imams, Muhammad Al-Mustafa s.a.w.). Concise statement but full of meaning. Not the other way round
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 10, 2017, 10:20:07 PM
I have a question for you Link.

Who will be your imam on "the day every people will be with their Imam"?

P.S. You certainly need to learn the beautiful art of "jawami'ul kalim" (the art possesed by the greatest of all imams, Muhammad Al-Mustafa s.a.w.). Concise statement but full of meaning. Not the other way round

The one who witnesses my state and I ought to hold on to his light and help and am in need to follow and obey even after reaching the home of return for he will be who teaches us the etiquette in all stages.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 10, 2017, 10:44:25 PM
Awww... it isn't that hard for you to name that leader of yours rather than giving descriptions of him, is it? Who is he, Link?

The one who witnesses my state and I ought to hold on to his light and help and am in need to follow and obey even after reaching the home of return for he will be who teaches us the etiquette in all stages.

I guess your imam on "the day every people will be with their Imam" will not going to be that hiddened no.12th because he doesn't fit the description you've written above (the one I bolded)...
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 10, 2017, 11:09:47 PM
The leader is the one who lives within all things and is the living name of God by which we glorify and recognize god. He is the center of the spiritual kingdom.  You want to follow your nafs so you mock his power and ability to guide.  Go ahead follow your nafs at the end when you will be called with Imam Mahdi you will know it is you who turned away from him and refused to acknowledge his link to you till your hate of him made you born of Iblis and you deceived yourself to be who you were not.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 10, 2017, 11:30:59 PM
The leader is the one who lives within all things and is the living name of God by which we glorify and recognize god. He is the center of the spiritual kingdom.  You want to follow your nafs so you mock his power and ability to guide.  Go ahead follow your nafs at the end when you will be called with Imam Mahdi you will know it is you who turned away from him and refused to acknowledge his link to you till your hate of him made you born of Iblis and you deceived yourself to be who you were not.

The one I follow CLEARLY (I repeat, CLEARLY) mentioned in the Quran to be followed.

لَقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِمَنْ كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

There  has  certainly  been  for  you  in  the  Messenger  of Allah an  excellent  pattern  for anyone  whose  hope  is  in Allah and  the  Last  Day  and  [who]  remembers Allah often.

(Al-Ahzab : 21)

قُلْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ

Say,  [O  Muhammad],  "If  you  should  love Allah ,  then  follow  me,  [so] Allah will  love  you and  forgive  you  your  sins.  And Allah is  Forgiving  and  Merciful."

(Ali Imran : 30)

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِنْ تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ

Say,  "Obey Allah and  the  Messenger."  But  if  they  turn  away  -   then  indeed, Allah does not  like  the  disbelievers.

(Ali Imran : 31) - and many more. Abundant, in fact.


The one you follow haven't been mentioned anywhere in the Quran to be followed.

Now, take a mirror, look yourself in it and ask who is following the call of God and who is following his own nafs, whims and desires?
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 10, 2017, 11:39:27 PM
Can we Agree that who Quran does not tell us to follow should not be followed?
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 10, 2017, 11:54:51 PM
I think you have agreed on who is following God's call and who is following his own desires.

Can we Agree that who Quran does not tell us to follow should not be followed?

"Quran does not tell us to follow" or "Quran does tell us not to follow"?
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 10, 2017, 11:59:01 PM
I am asking regarding the first.  Who it does not tell us to follow should not be followed.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 11, 2017, 12:02:50 AM
I am asking regarding the first.  Who it does not tell us to follow should not be followed.

Ok. Proceed first before we can agree on anything.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 11, 2017, 12:07:12 AM
I am asking regarding the first.  Who it does not tell us to follow should not be followed.

Ok. Proceed first before we can agree on anything.

I think we both are following our desires in that we are disputing while Suratal Fatiha is telling us to be patient and keep seeking guidance from God rather then people.

Disputing In religion is not very useful for anyone and manifests us as both people fighting for their ego.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 11, 2017, 03:14:46 AM
I think we both are following our desires in that we are disputing while Suratal Fatiha is telling us to be patient and keep seeking guidance from God rather then people.

Dispute with CLEAR proof first. Then you know who is following own desire.


Disputing In religion is not very useful for anyone....

Not necessarily. If not Allah would not mention it in the Quran:

ۖ وَجَادِلْهُمْ بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ ۚ
"and  argue  with  them in  a  way  that  is  best."

(An-Nahl : 125)


...... and manifests us as both people fighting for their ego.

But agreed that it should be done in the best of manners.


I am asking regarding the first.  Who it does not tell us to follow should not be followed.

Ok. Proceed first before we can agree on anything.

Still waiting.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 11, 2017, 04:09:46 AM
Salam

Do we agree that leaders that Quran doesn't say to follow, should not be followed?
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 11, 2017, 04:13:06 AM
I don't know about disputing. To be honest, it feels it might be a job meant for his chosen ones alone. And that people should only pay heed to people claiming to be chosen by God.

I've been doing for a long time and the more I do it, the more I realize Ahlulbayt and Quran have argued the case for the religion in a more better, more eloquent, and more thorough manner, in fewer words.

Am I met to be listened to? Or is better I be silent so people have to pay heed to Quran and Ahlulbayt if they wish to perceive the truth?
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 11, 2017, 05:35:58 AM
Salam

Do we agree that leaders that Quran doesn't say to follow, should not be followed?

As I said, please proceed before we can agree on anything.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 11, 2017, 11:54:00 AM
Salam

Do we agree that leaders that Quran doesn't say to follow, should not be followed?

As I said, please proceed before we can agree on anything.

Proceed with what?
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 11, 2017, 03:12:12 PM
Salam

Do we agree that leaders that Quran doesn't say to follow, should not be followed?

As I said, please proceed before we can agree on anything.

Proceed with what?

Proceed with what you want to say after that question of yours.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 11, 2017, 04:32:16 PM
Salam

Do we agree that leaders that Quran doesn't say to follow, should not be followed?

As I said, please proceed before we can agree on anything.

Proceed with what?

Proceed with what you want to say after that question of yours.

I think you very well understand that if we are suppose to follow someone, then Quran must designate that person.

You keep bringing up the issue if 12 Imams are not designated in Quran, we should not follow them.

Isn't the same true of the Sunni Imam Mahdi?

So I am going to ask you, where is the Sunni Imam Mahdi mentioned in Quran.

Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 11, 2017, 04:42:50 PM
I think you very well understand that if we are suppose to follow someone, then Quran must designate that person.

Where does it say in the Quran that if we have to follow someone, the Quran must designate that person?

You keep bringing up the issue if 12 Imams are not designated in Quran, we should not follow them.

Isn't the same true of the Sunni Imam Mahdi?

So I am going to ask you, where is the Sunni Imam Mahdi mentioned in Quran.

None is mentioned in the Quran. Only in hadith.

Please understand the way we believe in Sunni Mahdi is way different from the way you believe in 12th imam.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 11, 2017, 04:57:52 PM
Where does it say in the Quran that if we have to follow someone, the Quran must designate that person?

اتَّبِعُوا مَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ وَلَا تَتَّبِعُوا مِنْ دُونِهِ أَوْلِيَاءَ ۗ قَلِيلًا مَا تَذَكَّرُونَ

وَإِذَا لَمْ تَأْتِهِمْ بِآيَةٍ قَالُوا لَوْلَا اجْتَبَيْتَهَا ۚ قُلْ إِنَّمَا أَتَّبِعُ مَا يُوحَىٰ إِلَيَّ مِنْ رَبِّي ۚ هَٰذَا بَصَائِرُ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةٌ لِقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ

وَرَبُّكَ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيَخْتَارُ ۗ مَا كَانَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ ۚ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

قُلِ اللَّهُمَّ مَالِكَ الْمُلْكِ تُؤْتِي الْمُلْكَ مَنْ تَشَاءُ وَتَنْزِعُ الْمُلْكَ مِمَّنْ تَشَاءُ وَتُعِزُّ مَنْ تَشَاءُ وَتُذِلُّ مَنْ تَشَاءُ ۖ بِيَدِكَ الْخَيْرُ ۖ إِنَّكَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ

فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ ۗ إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُنْذِرٌ ۖ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ

وَمَا اخْتَلَفْتُمْ فِيهِ مِنْ شَيْءٍ فَحُكْمُهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكُمُ اللَّهُ رَبِّي عَلَيْهِ تَوَكَّلْتُ وَإِلَيْهِ أُنِيبُ

إِنَّ هَٰذِهِ أُمَّتُكُمْ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً وَأَنَا رَبُّكُمْ فَاعْبُدُونِ

وَتَقَطَّعُوا أَمْرَهُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ ۖ كُلٌّ إِلَيْنَا رَاجِعُونَ

Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 11, 2017, 05:13:14 PM
Where does it say in the Quran that if we have to follow someone, the Quran must designate that person?

اتَّبِعُوا مَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ وَلَا تَتَّبِعُوا مِنْ دُونِهِ أَوْلِيَاءَ ۗ قَلِيلًا مَا تَذَكَّرُونَ

وَإِذَا لَمْ تَأْتِهِمْ بِآيَةٍ قَالُوا لَوْلَا اجْتَبَيْتَهَا ۚ قُلْ إِنَّمَا أَتَّبِعُ مَا يُوحَىٰ إِلَيَّ مِنْ رَبِّي ۚ هَٰذَا بَصَائِرُ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةٌ لِقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ

وَرَبُّكَ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيَخْتَارُ ۗ مَا كَانَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ ۚ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

قُلِ اللَّهُمَّ مَالِكَ الْمُلْكِ تُؤْتِي الْمُلْكَ مَنْ تَشَاءُ وَتَنْزِعُ الْمُلْكَ مِمَّنْ تَشَاءُ وَتُعِزُّ مَنْ تَشَاءُ وَتُذِلُّ مَنْ تَشَاءُ ۖ بِيَدِكَ الْخَيْرُ ۖ إِنَّكَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ

فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ ۗ إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُنْذِرٌ ۖ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ

وَمَا اخْتَلَفْتُمْ فِيهِ مِنْ شَيْءٍ فَحُكْمُهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكُمُ اللَّهُ رَبِّي عَلَيْهِ تَوَكَّلْتُ وَإِلَيْهِ أُنِيبُ

إِنَّ هَٰذِهِ أُمَّتُكُمْ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً وَأَنَا رَبُّكُمْ فَاعْبُدُونِ

وَتَقَطَّعُوا أَمْرَهُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ ۖ كُلٌّ إِلَيْنَا رَاجِعُونَ

The ayahs you've shown didn't answer the question except for this:

فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ

Thank you for affirming our believe that if we have dispute over something, follow  Allah i.e. the Quran and Rasul i.e. the sunnah.

If you diagree with that, please show us where in the Quran does Allah designate someone else to be followed?

Please remember. The key word here is "designate someone", as you yourself said.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 11, 2017, 05:22:33 PM
Salam

Verse 42:23 with 25:57 implies the close kin of Mohammad ought to be taken a path to God and held on to with eyes, scent, taste, and ears of love, for it is the remembrance.

As well "so ask the family of the reminder" and many other verses.

If you are asking their names, then my belief is their names are found in Quran, but not explicitly. Rather implicitly, their names are alluded to in Quran. I don't mean just Ahlul-Kisaa but the wisdom of all the Imams names and even the order.  I believe the same is true of even the Shariah. I believe the number of Rakaas, sujood, Qiyams in each Salah and all Salah's together, has wisdom in Quran, and while none of us would of saw it in Quran without the manifestation in the Sunnah, the wisdom is found therein.

God could of explicitly mentioned all the details, but we would of settled to be lazy in searching to see the treasured topics therein.

If you are ever interested in any of that, then let me know. 





Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 11, 2017, 05:58:39 PM
Verse 42:23 with 25:57 implies the close kin of Mohammad ought to be taken a path to God and held on to with eyes, scent, taste, and ears of love, for it is the remembrance.

Read these 2 verses you quoted. Where does Allah designate a person to be followed?

25:57

قُلْ مَا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ مِنْ أَجْرٍ إِلَّا مَنْ شَاءَ أَنْ يَتَّخِذَ إِلَىٰ رَبِّهِ سَبِيلًا

Say,  "I  do  not  ask  of  you  for  it  any  payment  -   only  that  whoever  wills  might  take  to  his Lord  a  way."

42:23

ذَٰلِكَ الَّذِي يُبَشِّرُ اللَّهُ عِبَادَهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ ۗ قُلْ لَا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِلَّا الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبَىٰ ۗ وَمَنْ يَقْتَرِفْ حَسَنَةً نَزِدْ لَهُ فِيهَا حُسْنًا ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ شَكُورٌ

It  is  that  of  which Allah gives  good  tidings  to  His  servants  who  believe  and  do  righteous deeds.  Say,  [O  Muhammad],  "I  do  not  ask  you  for  this  message  any  payment  [but]  only good  will  through  kinship."  And  whoever  commits  a  good  deed  -   We  will  increase  for  him good  therein.  Indeed, Allah is  Forgiving  and  Appreciative.


Subhanallah. You accused other people following their desires and you are on the light and guidance. The way you quoted ayatul Quran left and right disregard of their meaning shows who is really following his own desired.

Again, compare the verses you quoted against these ayahs below. They give you unshakeable clarity on who to follow compared to yours (in fact, following the 12th imam is a total silent. Surprise, surprise).

لَقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِمَنْ كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

There  has  certainly  been  for  you  in  the  Messenger  of Allah an  excellent  pattern  for anyone  whose  hope  is  in Allah and  the  Last  Day  and  [who]  remembers Allah often.

(Al-Ahzab : 21)

قُلْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ

Say,  [O  Muhammad],  "If  you  should  love Allah ,  then  follow  me,  [so] Allah will  love  you and  forgive  you  your  sins.  And Allah is  Forgiving  and  Merciful."

(Ali Imran : 30)

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِنْ تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ

Say,  "Obey Allah and  the  Messenger."  But  if  they  turn  away  -   then  indeed, Allah does not  like  the  disbelievers.

(Ali Imran : 31)

I'll just wait until you bring in a clear ayahs mentioning who Allah designates to follow  (as above) as you claimed but failed so far.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 11, 2017, 06:17:49 PM
Salam

You didn't properly translate. You translated in a way that there is a contradiction between the two verses when there should not be any.

Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 11, 2017, 10:02:34 PM
You didn't properly translate. You translated in a way that there is a contradiction between the two verses when there should not be any.

I myself do not tranlate it. I took it from Sahih International.

Enlighten me what would your "proper translation" looks like.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 12, 2017, 01:41:56 AM
You didn't properly translate. You translated in a way that there is a contradiction between the two verses when there should not be any.

I myself do not tranlate it. I took it from Sahih International.

Enlighten me what would your "proper translation" looks like.

Al-Qurba would refer to near kin/relatives of the Messenger.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 12, 2017, 03:36:26 AM
You didn't properly translate. You translated in a way that there is a contradiction between the two verses when there should not be any.

I myself do not tranlate it. I took it from Sahih International.

Enlighten me what would your "proper translation" looks like.

Al-Qurba would refer to near kin/relatives of the Messenger.

The discussion as per your own question is about following someone Allah designates to follow.

Therefore, please give full "proper translations" for those 2 ayahs so that we could see that Allah designates someone to be followed through them.

The request is easy to understand, right?
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 12, 2017, 02:41:28 PM
That is (the Bounty) whereof God gives Glad Tidings to His Servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say: "No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of those near of kin." And if any one earns any good, We shall give him an increas e of good in respect thereof: for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Ready to appreciate (service). (Yusuf Ali)

That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; and whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful.    (Shakir)

This is the glad news which God gives to His servants, the righteously striving believers. (Muhammad), say, "I do not ask you for any payment for my preaching to you except (your) love of(my near) relatives." Whoever achieves virtue will have its merit increased. God is All-forgiving and Appreciating.(Muhamad Sarwar)

That is the (award) of which Allah gives the good news to those servants who believe and do pious works persistently. Say: ‘I do not ask for any recompense for this (preaching the faith in Messengership), but (seek) love for (my) kindreds (and Allah’s nearness).’ And whoever earns good, We shall increase for him the reward in the Hereafter. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Most Appreciative. (Dr. Mohammad Tahir Al-Qadri)

That favour is what Allah gives the glad tiding of, to such of His subjects as believe and do righteous deeds. Say, "No reward do I ask of you for this [Message] other than the love of the near and dear ones." And one who does anything good We increase for him the goodness thereof. Allah is indeed forgiving, appreciative of gratitude. (Mohamad Al-Shafi)

   This is God’s good news to His faithful and righteous servants. Mohammad, say: “I do not ask any reward from you [for my “consulting” services of guiding you to the Paradise]. The only thing that I am asking is your love [which does not cost you anything] toward those who are close to me.” Those who do a good deed, I (God) will reward him many folded as I am Forgiving and Appreciative. (Bijan Moeinian)

This is the glad tidings that Allah gives to His worshipers, who believe and do good works. Say: 'For this I ask of you no wage except the love of the (Prophet's) relatives. We will add good to whosoever gains a good deed. Allah is the Forgiving and the Thanker. ' (Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah)

That is the good tidings God gives to His servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say: 'I do not ask of you a wage for this, except love for the kinsfolk; and whosoever gains a good deed, We shall give him increase of good in respect of it. Surely God is All-forgiving, All-thankful.(Arthur John Arberry)

That is what God gives glad tidings of to His servants who believe and do righteous acts. Say, 'I do not ask for it a hire - only the love of my kinsfolk.' And he who gains a good action we will increase good for him thereby; verily, God is forgiving and grateful! (Edward Henry Palmer)

This is what God announceth to his servants who believe and do the things that are right. SAY: For this ask I no wage of you, save the love of my kin. And whoever shall have won the merit of a good deed, we will increase good to him therewith; for God is forgiving, grateful.(John Medows Rodwell)





Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 12, 2017, 03:00:10 PM
That is (the Bounty) whereof God gives Glad Tidings to His Servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say: "No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of those near of kin." And if any one earns any good, We shall give him an increas e of good in respect thereof: for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Ready to appreciate (service). (Yusuf Ali)

That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; and whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful.    (Shakir)

This is the glad news which God gives to His servants, the righteously striving believers. (Muhammad), say, "I do not ask you for any payment for my preaching to you except (your) love of(my near) relatives." Whoever achieves virtue will have its merit increased. God is All-forgiving and Appreciating.(Muhamad Sarwar)

That is the (award) of which Allah gives the good news to those servants who believe and do pious works persistently. Say: ‘I do not ask for any recompense for this (preaching the faith in Messengership), but (seek) love for (my) kindreds (and Allah’s nearness).’ And whoever earns good, We shall increase for him the reward in the Hereafter. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Most Appreciative. (Dr. Mohammad Tahir Al-Qadri)

That favour is what Allah gives the glad tiding of, to such of His subjects as believe and do righteous deeds. Say, "No reward do I ask of you for this [Message] other than the love of the near and dear ones." And one who does anything good We increase for him the goodness thereof. Allah is indeed forgiving, appreciative of gratitude. (Mohamad Al-Shafi)

   This is God’s good news to His faithful and righteous servants. Mohammad, say: “I do not ask any reward from you [for my “consulting” services of guiding you to the Paradise]. The only thing that I am asking is your love [which does not cost you anything] toward those who are close to me.” Those who do a good deed, I (God) will reward him many folded as I am Forgiving and Appreciative. (Bijan Moeinian)

This is the glad tidings that Allah gives to His worshipers, who believe and do good works. Say: 'For this I ask of you no wage except the love of the (Prophet's) relatives. We will add good to whosoever gains a good deed. Allah is the Forgiving and the Thanker. ' (Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah)

That is the good tidings God gives to His servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say: 'I do not ask of you a wage for this, except love for the kinsfolk; and whosoever gains a good deed, We shall give him increase of good in respect of it. Surely God is All-forgiving, All-thankful.(Arthur John Arberry)

That is what God gives glad tidings of to His servants who believe and do righteous acts. Say, 'I do not ask for it a hire - only the love of my kinsfolk.' And he who gains a good action we will increase good for him thereby; verily, God is forgiving and grateful! (Edward Henry Palmer)

This is what God announceth to his servants who believe and do the things that are right. SAY: For this ask I no wage of you, save the love of my kin. And whoever shall have won the merit of a good deed, we will increase good to him therewith; for God is forgiving, grateful.(John Medows Rodwell)


Is that what you call ayah of how Allah designate someone to be followed?

Please read the ayah a few more times and try again...
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 12, 2017, 03:05:14 PM
Is that what you call ayah of how Allah designate someone to be followed?

I think it's beyond clear God wants us to follow the family of Mohammad by this verse.

Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 12, 2017, 03:27:06 PM
Is that what you call ayah of how Allah designate someone to be followed?

I think it's beyond clear God wants us to follow the family of Mohammad by this verse.

You think it's beyond clear that God wants us to follow the family of Mohammad by that verse? You must have some comprehension issues if you suggested that.

The phrase used in the ayah is "الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبَىٰ" . Could you enlighten us what "الْمَوَدَّةَ" means?
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 12, 2017, 03:41:00 PM
Is that what you call ayah of how Allah designate someone to be followed?

I think it's beyond clear God wants us to follow the family of Mohammad by this verse.

You think it's beyond clear that God wants us to follow the family of Mohammad by that verse? You must have some comprehension issues if you suggested that.

The phrase used in the ayah is "الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبَىٰ" . Could you enlighten us what "الْمَوَدَّةَ" means?

Love takes on different forms and has different conditions.

You don't love a dog you have, in the same way you love your parents.

You don't love your parents, in the same way you love your child.

You don't love a friend, the same way you love your wife.

etc, etc....

And depending on what you've experienced with each of these, love can demand different things.

The verse is showing the way to show appreciation to God sending Mohammad as a Messenger and Mohammad conveying the message, and for his revelation, and teachings, is to love the near kin (of the Messenger).

This surely shows that they are an integral part of the message, but not only that, the central part in which if you love them, all the outward components of the Shariah will be acted out.

That is you will show appreciation to the whole religion if you love them.

This shows the type of love here, and the rights, surely include following them. If there is any doubt by this verse alone, then verse 25:57 confirms that the wage is who wants to, to take a path to his Lord.

Ultimately, when we think of the Messenger, we relate to him as an Authority on behalf of God, and we show appreciation and love of his holy station and role, by following him. His relationship to us is not like a normal person.

The love here of the near kin of the Messenger would be per other verses be a reminder and taking a path to God.

What exactly is this love? I feel that is for everyone to discover.

The more we know their noble rank, the more we make them the eyes by which we see, the more we come to appreciate them, love them,  both for what they have done for us and for their relationship to God.

It's the way to show appreciation to God, by loving those leaders and authorities he has appointed as a means to him, and as a doorway to his pleasure and light.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 12, 2017, 04:55:57 PM
You see how you have to give lengthy explanation TRYING TO FIT your believe INTO A WORD that DOESN'T HAVE ANY MEANING TOWARDS FOLLOWING OR TAKING SOMEBODY AS LEADER and THAT'S WHAT YOU CALLED AS A BEYOND CLEAR AYAH? It's laughable. Really, laughable...

And yet you have a gut to call other people following their desires and you are on light and guidance.

Keep believing what you want to believe but I'm certainly more convinced that the belief of Ahlus Sunnah of following the Quran and Sunnah as guidance is the right path. The evidences are WAY TOO CLEARER compared to the ayah you have provided:

 وَأَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الذِّكْرَ لِتُبَيِّنَ لِلنَّاسِ مَا نُزِّلَ إِلَيْهِمْ وَلَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ

And  We  revealed  to  you  the message  that  you  may  make  clear  to  the  people  what  was  sent  down  to  them  and  that they  might  give  thought. (An-Nahl : 44)


لَقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِمَنْ كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

There  has  certainly  been  for  you  in  the  Messenger  of Allah an  excellent  pattern  for anyone  whose  hope  is  in Allah and  the  Last  Day  and  [who]  remembers Allah often. (Al-Ahzab : 21)


وَمَا آتَاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَمَا نَهَاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانْتَهُوا

And  whatever  the  Messenger  has  given  you  -   take;  and  what  he  has  forbidden  you  - refrain  from.  (Al-Hasyr : 7)


فَلَا وَرَبِّكَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ حَتَّىٰ يُحَكِّمُوكَ فِيمَا شَجَرَ بَيْنَهُمْ ثُمَّ لَا يَجِدُوا فِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ حَرَجًا مِمَّا قَضَيْتَ وَيُسَلِّمُوا تَسْلِيمًا

But  no,  by  your  Lord,  they  will  not  [truly]  believe  until  they  make  you,  [O  Muhammad], judge  concerning  that  over  which  they  dispute  among  themselves  and  then  find  within themselves  no  discomfort  from  what  you  have  judged  and  submit  in  [full,  willing] submission. (An-Nisa' : 65)


وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ وَلَا مُؤْمِنَةٍ إِذَا قَضَى اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَمْرًا أَنْ يَكُونَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِمْ ۗ وَمَنْ يَعْصِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا مُبِينًا

It  is  not  for  a  believing  man  or  a  believing  woman,  when Allah and  His  Messenger  have decided  a  matter,  that  they  should  [thereafter]  have  any  choice  about  their  affair.  And whoever  disobeys Allah and  His  Messenger  has  certainly  strayed  into  clear  error. (Al-Ahzab : 36)


قُلْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ

Say,  [O  Muhammad],  "If  you  should  love Allah ,  then  follow  me,  [so] Allah will  love  you and  forgive  you  your  sins.  And Allah is  Forgiving  and  Merciful." (Ali Imran : 30)

On top of all the ayahs above, there are quite a number of ayahs that instruct the us to “obey” the Prophet:

1. “Obey Allah and the Messenger” (3:32, 3:132),
2. “Obey Allah and obey the Messenger” (4:59, 4:92, 24:54, 47:33, 64:12),
3. “Obey Allah and His Messenger” (8:1, 8:20, 8:46, 58:13).
4.“Obey the Messenger that you may be shown mercy” (24:56).

Wassalam.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 13, 2017, 03:02:06 PM
You asked me to enlighten you on the word "love".

Otherwise the verse speaks for itself.

Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 15, 2017, 11:33:42 AM
LOL... I thought you have some comprehension issues. Turn out to be your mind is so confused as well.

According to you, the ayah is beyond clear to follow the family of Muhammad s.a.w.

I think it's beyond clear God wants us to follow the family of Mohammad by this verse.

But when you were asked what "الْمَوَدَّةَ" in the ayah means, you defined it as "love".

When you were told that word has nothing to do with leadership, you said that the ayahs speak for itelf (which only tells about the love for the "qurba" of Muhammad s.a.w. and nothing about following the family of Muhammad s.a.w.).

LOL... what a confused chap you are!
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 15, 2017, 12:25:30 PM
LOL... I thought you have some comprehension issues. Turn out to be your mind is so confused as well.

According to you, the ayah is beyond clear to follow the family of Muhammad s.a.w.

I think it's beyond clear God wants us to follow the family of Mohammad by this verse.

But when you were asked what "الْمَوَدَّةَ" in the ayah means, you defined it as "love".

When you were told that word has nothing to do with leadership, you said that the ayahs speak for itelf (which only tells about the love for the "qurba" of Muhammad s.a.w. and nothing about following the family of Muhammad s.a.w.).

LOL... what a confused chap you are!

Do you believe loving God includes worshiping him and submitting to him?
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 15, 2017, 12:46:52 PM
LOL... I thought you have some comprehension issues. Turn out to be your mind is so confused as well.

According to you, the ayah is beyond clear to follow the family of Muhammad s.a.w.

I think it's beyond clear God wants us to follow the family of Mohammad by this verse.

But when you were asked what "الْمَوَدَّةَ" in the ayah means, you defined it as "love".

When you were told that word has nothing to do with leadership, you said that the ayahs speak for itelf (which only tells about the love for the "qurba" of Muhammad s.a.w. and nothing about following the family of Muhammad s.a.w.).

LOL... what a confused chap you are!

Do you believe loving God includes worshiping him and submitting to him?


Yes
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 16, 2017, 01:39:59 PM
Yes

And what is the right of the Messenger of God with respect to love to him?
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 17, 2017, 12:03:17 AM
Yes

And what is the right of the Messenger of God with respect to love to him?

The right of Messenger s.a.w. with respect to loving him? His s.a.w. right is to be loved above anybody else INCLUDING YOUR IMAMS!

قُلْ إِن كَانَ آبَاؤُكُمْ وَأَبْنَآؤُكُمْ وَإِخْوَانُكُمْ وَأَزْوَاجُكُمْ وَعَشِيرَتُكُمْ وَأَمْوَالٌ اقْتَرَفْتُمُوهَا وَتِجَارَةٌ تَخْشَوْنَ كَسَادَهَا وَمَسَاكِنُ تَرْضَوْنَهَا أَحَبَّ إِلَيْكُم مِّنَ اللّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَجِهَادٍ فِي سَبِيلِهِ فَتَرَبَّصُواْ حَتَّى يَأْتِيَ اللّهُ بِأَمْرِهِ وَاللّهُ لاَ يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْفَاسِقِينَ

Say,  [O  Muhammad],  "If  your  fathers,  your  sons,  your  brothers,  your  wives,  your relatives,  wealth  which  you  have  obtained,  commerce  wherein  you  fear  decline,  and dwellings  with  which  you  are  pleased  are  more  beloved  to  you  than Allah and  His Messenger  and  jihad  in  His  cause,  then  wait  until Allah executes  His  command.  And Allah does  not  guide  the  defiantly  disobedient  people." (At-Tawbah :  24)

It was narrated that Anas said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “None of you truly believes until I am more beloved to him than his father, his child and all the people.” (Narrated by Al-Bukhari & Muslim )
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 17, 2017, 02:10:18 PM
Yes

And what is the right of the Messenger of God with respect to love to him?

The right of Messenger s.a.w. with respect to loving him? His s.a.w. right is to be loved above anybody else INCLUDING YOUR IMAMS!

قُلْ إِن كَانَ آبَاؤُكُمْ وَأَبْنَآؤُكُمْ وَإِخْوَانُكُمْ وَأَزْوَاجُكُمْ وَعَشِيرَتُكُمْ وَأَمْوَالٌ اقْتَرَفْتُمُوهَا وَتِجَارَةٌ تَخْشَوْنَ كَسَادَهَا وَمَسَاكِنُ تَرْضَوْنَهَا أَحَبَّ إِلَيْكُم مِّنَ اللّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَجِهَادٍ فِي سَبِيلِهِ فَتَرَبَّصُواْ حَتَّى يَأْتِيَ اللّهُ بِأَمْرِهِ وَاللّهُ لاَ يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْفَاسِقِينَ

Say,  [O  Muhammad],  "If  your  fathers,  your  sons,  your  brothers,  your  wives,  your relatives,  wealth  which  you  have  obtained,  commerce  wherein  you  fear  decline,  and dwellings  with  which  you  are  pleased  are  more  beloved  to  you  than Allah and  His Messenger  and  jihad  in  His  cause,  then  wait  until Allah executes  His  command.  And Allah does  not  guide  the  defiantly  disobedient  people." (At-Tawbah :  24)

It was narrated that Anas said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “None of you truly believes until I am more beloved to him than his father, his child and all the people.” (Narrated by Al-Bukhari & Muslim )

And if you love him above anyone else, does that imply you will obey him and follow and recognize his chosen status as a means to God?
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 17, 2017, 02:44:51 PM
The right of Messenger s.a.w. with respect to loving him? His s.a.w. right is to be loved above anybody else INCLUDING YOUR IMAMS!

قُلْ إِن كَانَ آبَاؤُكُمْ وَأَبْنَآؤُكُمْ وَإِخْوَانُكُمْ وَأَزْوَاجُكُمْ وَعَشِيرَتُكُمْ وَأَمْوَالٌ اقْتَرَفْتُمُوهَا وَتِجَارَةٌ تَخْشَوْنَ كَسَادَهَا وَمَسَاكِنُ تَرْضَوْنَهَا أَحَبَّ إِلَيْكُم مِّنَ اللّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَجِهَادٍ فِي سَبِيلِهِ فَتَرَبَّصُواْ حَتَّى يَأْتِيَ اللّهُ بِأَمْرِهِ وَاللّهُ لاَ يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْفَاسِقِينَ

Say,  [O  Muhammad],  "If  your  fathers,  your  sons,  your  brothers,  your  wives,  your relatives,  wealth  which  you  have  obtained,  commerce  wherein  you  fear  decline,  and dwellings  with  which  you  are  pleased  are  more  beloved  to  you  than Allah and  His Messenger  and  jihad  in  His  cause,  then  wait  until Allah executes  His  command.  And Allah does  not  guide  the  defiantly  disobedient  people." (At-Tawbah :  24)

It was narrated that Anas said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “None of you truly believes until I am more beloved to him than his father, his child and all the people.” (Narrated by Al-Bukhari & Muslim )

And if you love him above anyone else, does that imply you will obey him and follow and recognize his chosen status as a means to God?

Nope. I will just follow him........


قُلْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ

Say,  [O  Muhammad],  "If  you  should  love Allah ,  then  follow  me,  [so] Allah will  love  you and  forgive  you  your  sins.  And Allah is  Forgiving  and  Merciful." (Ali Imran : 30)

....... because he is the best example.


لَقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِمَنْ كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

There  has  certainly  been  for  you  in  the  Messenger  of Allah an  excellent  pattern  for anyone  whose  hope  is  in Allah and  the  Last  Day  and  [who]  remembers Allah often. (Al-Ahzab : 21)

Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 18, 2017, 01:18:47 PM
The right of Messenger s.a.w. with respect to loving him? His s.a.w. right is to be loved above anybody else INCLUDING YOUR IMAMS!

قُلْ إِن كَانَ آبَاؤُكُمْ وَأَبْنَآؤُكُمْ وَإِخْوَانُكُمْ وَأَزْوَاجُكُمْ وَعَشِيرَتُكُمْ وَأَمْوَالٌ اقْتَرَفْتُمُوهَا وَتِجَارَةٌ تَخْشَوْنَ كَسَادَهَا وَمَسَاكِنُ تَرْضَوْنَهَا أَحَبَّ إِلَيْكُم مِّنَ اللّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَجِهَادٍ فِي سَبِيلِهِ فَتَرَبَّصُواْ حَتَّى يَأْتِيَ اللّهُ بِأَمْرِهِ وَاللّهُ لاَ يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْفَاسِقِينَ

Say,  [O  Muhammad],  "If  your  fathers,  your  sons,  your  brothers,  your  wives,  your relatives,  wealth  which  you  have  obtained,  commerce  wherein  you  fear  decline,  and dwellings  with  which  you  are  pleased  are  more  beloved  to  you  than Allah and  His Messenger  and  jihad  in  His  cause,  then  wait  until Allah executes  His  command.  And Allah does  not  guide  the  defiantly  disobedient  people." (At-Tawbah :  24)

It was narrated that Anas said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “None of you truly believes until I am more beloved to him than his father, his child and all the people.” (Narrated by Al-Bukhari & Muslim )

And if you love him above anyone else, does that imply you will obey him and follow and recognize his chosen status as a means to God?

Nope. I will just follow him........


قُلْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ

Say,  [O  Muhammad],  "If  you  should  love Allah ,  then  follow  me,  [so] Allah will  love  you and  forgive  you  your  sins.  And Allah is  Forgiving  and  Merciful." (Ali Imran : 30)

....... because he is the best example.


لَقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِمَنْ كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

There  has  certainly  been  for  you  in  the  Messenger  of Allah an  excellent  pattern  for anyone  whose  hope  is  in Allah and  the  Last  Day  and  [who]  remembers Allah often. (Al-Ahzab : 21)


Salam fair enough.

The way I look at it, it's a duty to submit to God and follow God's teachings.

When God sends a Prophet, it is incumbent on people to submit and follow that Prophet and love the grace of God through that Prophet. The Prophet himself is a grace and mercy from God, so we have to love him aside from containing sacred beauty and majesty from God, for the sake that God has gifted us with his presence and made him the means towards him.

We have to appreciate who they are, and submit to their authority and love them as authorities and means to God because that would show appreciation to God.

Now the Quran elabroates that in fact the wage in 42:23 is in fact taking a path to God (25:57).

This makes sense only when the near kin of Mohammad are a means to God, and are also a means to loving humanity and God in the right manner.

That is they manifest the light of God as well they are measuring stick by which we love other humans.

Remember, we have to recognize God as he is. Not as we simply imagine him to be nor what we simply desire him to be nor what non-appointed leaders teach us he is!
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 18, 2017, 03:41:29 PM
Now the Quran elabroates that in fact the wage in 42:23 is in fact taking a path to God (25:57).

This makes sense only when the near kin of Mohammad are a means to God, and are also a means to loving humanity and God in the right manner.

Where does in those ayahs asking us to take near kin of Muhammad s.a.w. as means to Allah? You are just following your own desire here. Putting a meaning into ayahs which don't have the meaning you intended.


Remember, we have to recognize God as he is. Not as we simply imagine him to be nor what we simply desire him to be nor what non-appointed leaders teach us he is!

Questions:
1. I'm following Muhammad s.a.w. Are you saying he s.a.w. is not appointed by Allah?

2. I have asked this question before but you avoided to answer. So, I ask again. You keep on repeating we need to follow appointed leader chosen by Allah. Who is the appointed leader that you are following? Enlighten me…
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 18, 2017, 03:51:37 PM

Quote
Remember, we have to recognize God as he is. Not as we simply imagine him to be nor what we simply desire him to be nor what non-appointed leaders teach us he is!

Questions:
1. I'm following Muhammad s.a.w. Are you saying he s.a.w. is not appointed by Allah?

2. I have asked this question before but you avoided to answer. So, I ask again. You keep on repeating we need to follow appointed leader chosen by Allah. Who is the appointed leader that you are following? Enlighten me…

1. You associate leaders who are not appointed by God with Mohammad. Unless you are willing to say that non-appointed leaders should not be followed, my point stands.

2. I follow the family of reminder outwardly and what I do inwardly is not your concern.

Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 18, 2017, 04:04:40 PM
Where does in those ayahs asking us to take near kin of Muhammad s.a.w. as means to Allah?

In the verse 42:23 with 25:57. You can play coin but it's clear that verse is saying if you want to appreciate the message that God brought, then love the family of Mohammad (and is implied this is due to them being means to God) and that is way to do goodness (as implied by the beginning of 42:23 and the end).

If you appreciate Islam as is you ought to love the family of Mohammad, if you want to show gratitude to God and the Messenger, you should love the family of Mohammad, and there are so many verses reminding of this wage all in context of Surahs emphasize to follow and cling to and hold on to chosen leaders and guides!

The way to show gratitude to who sent as a mercy to humanity is to love his near kin! That is a huge message! And most verses reminding of the wage emphasize it's a reminder to the whole worlds! And not only that, but it's a path to God!

The family of the reminder and the reminder being Mohammad then makes sense in light of that!
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 21, 2017, 10:37:06 PM
O beautiful One (Al-Hussain)
Foreseen through heart's ears,
Seeing the revelation as it's meant to be,
You knew the light of Islam the world would not see,
They would know things like we cannot drink beer,
But not the justice, peace, and enlightenment meant for all humanity,
They would know we are to eat halal,
Not eat pork and that our women must wear the Hijaab,
That we aren't allowed to dance and have a ball,
But not understand the reasons at all,
You knew you were most probably our last chance,
That if none of the nine leaders from your offspring were supported as they are meant to be supported,
The connection would not be established,
The vision of Quran distorted,
It's pages urinated by dark magic on the hearts,
Spoken and recited east and west,
The world would never know,
The justice that was best,
Had you only been loved,
Accepted and recognized,
You saw the light of Islam fading,
As you were killed,
You took a risk,
In hope to stop this tragedy,
You saw it all, the chaos,
The likes of Trump coming to power,
The sanctions, the new world order
You knew the Illuminati very well,
The killers of the Prophets of old,
It's no conspiracy theory to me,
I will either die young or see a long life unfold,
Or something between that who knows?
My help I promise,
You once said "Is there a helper who can help us!".
I am at your service,
So empower my sword of my soul,
With rains from your sword,
And write words on it, that open thousand of the other words,
And help me help you,
And your great grandson,
Save this world from the darkness that the dark one wishes to unleash to humanity,
Help me be a helper of the book,
That will usher hope, be a mercy, and be the cure!
At your service O Forever King and Leader, O beautiful One, O Hussain!
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 22, 2017, 12:40:40 PM

Quote
Remember, we have to recognize God as he is. Not as we simply imagine him to be nor what we simply desire him to be nor what non-appointed leaders teach us he is!

Questions:
1. I'm following Muhammad s.a.w. Are you saying he s.a.w. is not appointed by Allah?

2. I have asked this question before but you avoided to answer. So, I ask again. You keep on repeating we need to follow appointed leader chosen by Allah. Who is the appointed leader that you are following? Enlighten me…

1. You associate leaders who are not appointed by God with Mohammad. Unless you are willing to say that non-appointed leaders should not be followed, my point stands.

2. I follow the family of reminder outwardly and what I do inwardly is not your concern.


1. Are you incapable of reading properly? I said I follow Muhammad s.a.w., the greatest of all imams including yours.

2. Who are the family of Reminder you claimed you follow outwardly?
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 22, 2017, 12:55:08 PM
Where does in those ayahs asking us to take near kin of Muhammad s.a.w. as means to Allah?

In the verse 42:23 with 25:57. You can play coin but it's clear that verse is saying if you want to appreciate the message that God brought, then love the family of Mohammad (and is implied this is due to them being means to God) and that is way to do goodness (as implied by the beginning of 42:23 and the end).

If you appreciate Islam as is you ought to love the family of Mohammad, if you want to show gratitude to God and the Messenger, you should love the family of Mohammad, and there are so many verses reminding of this wage all in context of Surahs emphasize to follow and cling to and hold on to chosen leaders and guides!

The way to show gratitude to who sent as a mercy to humanity is to love his near kin! That is a huge message! And most verses reminding of the wage emphasize it's a reminder to the whole worlds! And not only that, but it's a path to God!

The family of the reminder and the reminder being Mohammad then makes sense in light of that!

I'm using your very own words (almost) in another thread in replying to your post above:

"We know you guys can magically interpret everything away and deny twisted it.

That's nothing new."
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 22, 2017, 01:48:34 PM
The hadiths from the Prophet as well as the 12 Imams all confirm these interpretations, but Quran itself protects itself.

It's time to submit and accept the truth with peace and no longer fight, but embrace.

Love of the family of Mohammad will only teach you and make you see. Don't be afraid to embrace the Captains that sail by the name of God, the ones who succeeded the founding Captain and Seal of Prophets with regards to his leadership.

There is no harm.  I know you can do it.  It might look like you are giving up honor, but you are not, you will only gain it.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Abu Muhammad on March 22, 2017, 03:44:01 PM
The hadiths from the Prophet as well as the 12 Imams all confirm these interpretations, but Quran itself protects itself.

It's time to submit and accept the truth with peace and no longer fight, but embrace.

Love of the family of Mohammad will only teach you and make you see. Don't be afraid to embrace the Captains that sail by the name of God, the ones who succeeded the founding Captain and Seal of Prophets with regards to his leadership.

There is no harm.  I know you can do it.  It might look like you are giving up honor, but you are not, you will only gain it.


Why should I follow something that has no CLEAR basis in the Quran? As you have proven yourself above, the best you could do was just giving IMPLIED  i.e. UNCLEAR meaning (and TWISTED too). All IMPLIED  i.e. UNCLEAR meaning and nothing is CLEAR.

Whereas we Sunnis, have CLEAR basis from the Quran to follow Muhammad Al-Mustafa s.a.w. as I have shown you some time ago.

So, why should I go into TWISTED and UNCLEAR (aka IMPLIED) path when the CLEAR path has already been laid infront of me?
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Hani on March 22, 2017, 04:22:01 PM
The hadiths from the Prophet as well as the 12 Imams all confirm these interpretations, but Quran itself protects itself.

It's time to submit and accept the truth with peace and no longer fight, but embrace.

Love of the family of Mohammad will only teach you and make you see. Don't be afraid to embrace the Captains that sail by the name of God, the ones who succeeded the founding Captain and Seal of Prophets with regards to his leadership.

There is no harm.  I know you can do it.  It might look like you are giving up honor, but you are not, you will only gain it.


Dude, are you alright?

Also YOU need to Understand that it's not an issue of stubbornness, if you stubbornly insist that we accept your beliefs we won't necessarily accept them. People accept truth with evidence, you've been doing a poor job there. People on this forum have shifted major opinions they had multiple times due to further research and evidence.

Let me show you a few opinion shifts I had just these past couple of months:

- I shifted from libertarian to determinist. (Based on Qur'anic and philosophical evidence)
- I shifted from believing that `Ali was pleased when Abu Bakr received Caliphate to `Ali being upset due to him thinking he had more right due to his kinship. (Based on sound historical evidence so I wrote a whole book on it)
- I shifted my opinion from all prophets not leaving inheritance to only our prophet (saw) not leaving inheritance. (Based on thorough research of prophetic traditions and early opinions)
- I am currently researching the eternity of hell-fire, the fate of a suicide sinner and a few other issues that could lead to shifts in opinions I previously held.

What's to stop me in believing in your hidden Imam is the poor nature of your evidence, the intellectual argument is very weak (you guys think it's strong but it ain't), the Qur'anic interpretation is far-fetched and unclear, the Sunnah evidence is the weakest and it actually proves the opposite of your belief.

So for the love of God, stop acting like you have reached enlightenment and you wish to share this clear truth which we are all denying because we have some beef with our beloved Prophet's (saw) family. We have nothing for them except love and respect, so know that your case is very weak and your sect has a dark history.
Title: Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
Post by: Link on March 22, 2017, 04:47:11 PM
The hadiths from the Prophet as well as the 12 Imams all confirm these interpretations, but Quran itself protects itself.

It's time to submit and accept the truth with peace and no longer fight, but embrace.

Love of the family of Mohammad will only teach you and make you see. Don't be afraid to embrace the Captains that sail by the name of God, the ones who succeeded the founding Captain and Seal of Prophets with regards to his leadership.

There is no harm.  I know you can do it.  It might look like you are giving up honor, but you are not, you will only gain it.


Why should I follow something that has no CLEAR basis in the Quran? As you have proven yourself above, the best you could do was just giving IMPLIED  i.e. UNCLEAR meaning (and TWISTED too). All IMPLIED  i.e. UNCLEAR meaning and nothing is CLEAR.

Whereas we Sunnis, have CLEAR basis from the Quran to follow Muhammad Al-Mustafa s.a.w. as I have shown you some time ago.

So, why should I go into TWISTED and UNCLEAR (aka IMPLIED) path when the CLEAR path has already been laid infront of me?


Nothing in the Quran is unclear necessarily, from it comes both unclearness and clear proofs and signs due to our own states.  You know it is of the clear teachings of Quran and sunnah.  Not everyone who reads Quran knows right away but you do know!