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True Leadership vs False leadership...

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Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2017, 10:20:07 PM »
I have a question for you Link.

Who will be your imam on "the day every people will be with their Imam"?

P.S. You certainly need to learn the beautiful art of "jawami'ul kalim" (the art possesed by the greatest of all imams, Muhammad Al-Mustafa s.a.w.). Concise statement but full of meaning. Not the other way round

The one who witnesses my state and I ought to hold on to his light and help and am in need to follow and obey even after reaching the home of return for he will be who teaches us the etiquette in all stages.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2017, 10:44:25 PM »
Awww... it isn't that hard for you to name that leader of yours rather than giving descriptions of him, is it? Who is he, Link?

The one who witnesses my state and I ought to hold on to his light and help and am in need to follow and obey even after reaching the home of return for he will be who teaches us the etiquette in all stages.

I guess your imam on "the day every people will be with their Imam" will not going to be that hiddened no.12th because he doesn't fit the description you've written above (the one I bolded)...
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 10:45:48 PM by Abu Muhammad »

Link

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2017, 11:09:47 PM »
The leader is the one who lives within all things and is the living name of God by which we glorify and recognize god. He is the center of the spiritual kingdom.  You want to follow your nafs so you mock his power and ability to guide.  Go ahead follow your nafs at the end when you will be called with Imam Mahdi you will know it is you who turned away from him and refused to acknowledge his link to you till your hate of him made you born of Iblis and you deceived yourself to be who you were not.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 11:11:48 PM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2017, 11:30:59 PM »
The leader is the one who lives within all things and is the living name of God by which we glorify and recognize god. He is the center of the spiritual kingdom.  You want to follow your nafs so you mock his power and ability to guide.  Go ahead follow your nafs at the end when you will be called with Imam Mahdi you will know it is you who turned away from him and refused to acknowledge his link to you till your hate of him made you born of Iblis and you deceived yourself to be who you were not.

The one I follow CLEARLY (I repeat, CLEARLY) mentioned in the Quran to be followed.

لَقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِمَنْ كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

There  has  certainly  been  for  you  in  the  Messenger  of Allah an  excellent  pattern  for anyone  whose  hope  is  in Allah and  the  Last  Day  and  [who]  remembers Allah often.

(Al-Ahzab : 21)

قُلْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ

Say,  [O  Muhammad],  "If  you  should  love Allah ,  then  follow  me,  [so] Allah will  love  you and  forgive  you  your  sins.  And Allah is  Forgiving  and  Merciful."

(Ali Imran : 30)

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِنْ تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ

Say,  "Obey Allah and  the  Messenger."  But  if  they  turn  away  -   then  indeed, Allah does not  like  the  disbelievers.

(Ali Imran : 31) - and many more. Abundant, in fact.


The one you follow haven't been mentioned anywhere in the Quran to be followed.

Now, take a mirror, look yourself in it and ask who is following the call of God and who is following his own nafs, whims and desires?

Link

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2017, 11:39:27 PM »
Can we Agree that who Quran does not tell us to follow should not be followed?
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2017, 11:54:51 PM »
I think you have agreed on who is following God's call and who is following his own desires.

Can we Agree that who Quran does not tell us to follow should not be followed?

"Quran does not tell us to follow" or "Quran does tell us not to follow"?

Link

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2017, 11:59:01 PM »
I am asking regarding the first.  Who it does not tell us to follow should not be followed.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2017, 12:02:50 AM »
I am asking regarding the first.  Who it does not tell us to follow should not be followed.

Ok. Proceed first before we can agree on anything.

Link

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2017, 12:07:12 AM »
I am asking regarding the first.  Who it does not tell us to follow should not be followed.

Ok. Proceed first before we can agree on anything.

I think we both are following our desires in that we are disputing while Suratal Fatiha is telling us to be patient and keep seeking guidance from God rather then people.

Disputing In religion is not very useful for anyone and manifests us as both people fighting for their ego.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 12:08:31 AM by Link »
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2017, 03:14:46 AM »
I think we both are following our desires in that we are disputing while Suratal Fatiha is telling us to be patient and keep seeking guidance from God rather then people.

Dispute with CLEAR proof first. Then you know who is following own desire.


Disputing In religion is not very useful for anyone....

Not necessarily. If not Allah would not mention it in the Quran:

ۖ وَجَادِلْهُمْ بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ ۚ
"and  argue  with  them in  a  way  that  is  best."

(An-Nahl : 125)


...... and manifests us as both people fighting for their ego.

But agreed that it should be done in the best of manners.


I am asking regarding the first.  Who it does not tell us to follow should not be followed.

Ok. Proceed first before we can agree on anything.

Still waiting.

Link

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2017, 04:09:46 AM »
Salam

Do we agree that leaders that Quran doesn't say to follow, should not be followed?
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Link

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2017, 04:13:06 AM »
I don't know about disputing. To be honest, it feels it might be a job meant for his chosen ones alone. And that people should only pay heed to people claiming to be chosen by God.

I've been doing for a long time and the more I do it, the more I realize Ahlulbayt and Quran have argued the case for the religion in a more better, more eloquent, and more thorough manner, in fewer words.

Am I met to be listened to? Or is better I be silent so people have to pay heed to Quran and Ahlulbayt if they wish to perceive the truth?
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2017, 05:35:58 AM »
Salam

Do we agree that leaders that Quran doesn't say to follow, should not be followed?

As I said, please proceed before we can agree on anything.

Link

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2017, 11:54:00 AM »
Salam

Do we agree that leaders that Quran doesn't say to follow, should not be followed?

As I said, please proceed before we can agree on anything.

Proceed with what?
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2017, 03:12:12 PM »
Salam

Do we agree that leaders that Quran doesn't say to follow, should not be followed?

As I said, please proceed before we can agree on anything.

Proceed with what?

Proceed with what you want to say after that question of yours.

Link

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2017, 04:32:16 PM »
Salam

Do we agree that leaders that Quran doesn't say to follow, should not be followed?

As I said, please proceed before we can agree on anything.

Proceed with what?

Proceed with what you want to say after that question of yours.

I think you very well understand that if we are suppose to follow someone, then Quran must designate that person.

You keep bringing up the issue if 12 Imams are not designated in Quran, we should not follow them.

Isn't the same true of the Sunni Imam Mahdi?

So I am going to ask you, where is the Sunni Imam Mahdi mentioned in Quran.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2017, 04:42:50 PM »
I think you very well understand that if we are suppose to follow someone, then Quran must designate that person.

Where does it say in the Quran that if we have to follow someone, the Quran must designate that person?

You keep bringing up the issue if 12 Imams are not designated in Quran, we should not follow them.

Isn't the same true of the Sunni Imam Mahdi?

So I am going to ask you, where is the Sunni Imam Mahdi mentioned in Quran.

None is mentioned in the Quran. Only in hadith.

Please understand the way we believe in Sunni Mahdi is way different from the way you believe in 12th imam.

Link

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2017, 04:57:52 PM »
Where does it say in the Quran that if we have to follow someone, the Quran must designate that person?

اتَّبِعُوا مَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ وَلَا تَتَّبِعُوا مِنْ دُونِهِ أَوْلِيَاءَ ۗ قَلِيلًا مَا تَذَكَّرُونَ

وَإِذَا لَمْ تَأْتِهِمْ بِآيَةٍ قَالُوا لَوْلَا اجْتَبَيْتَهَا ۚ قُلْ إِنَّمَا أَتَّبِعُ مَا يُوحَىٰ إِلَيَّ مِنْ رَبِّي ۚ هَٰذَا بَصَائِرُ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةٌ لِقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ

وَرَبُّكَ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيَخْتَارُ ۗ مَا كَانَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ ۚ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

قُلِ اللَّهُمَّ مَالِكَ الْمُلْكِ تُؤْتِي الْمُلْكَ مَنْ تَشَاءُ وَتَنْزِعُ الْمُلْكَ مِمَّنْ تَشَاءُ وَتُعِزُّ مَنْ تَشَاءُ وَتُذِلُّ مَنْ تَشَاءُ ۖ بِيَدِكَ الْخَيْرُ ۖ إِنَّكَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ

فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ ۗ إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُنْذِرٌ ۖ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ

وَمَا اخْتَلَفْتُمْ فِيهِ مِنْ شَيْءٍ فَحُكْمُهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكُمُ اللَّهُ رَبِّي عَلَيْهِ تَوَكَّلْتُ وَإِلَيْهِ أُنِيبُ

إِنَّ هَٰذِهِ أُمَّتُكُمْ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً وَأَنَا رَبُّكُمْ فَاعْبُدُونِ

وَتَقَطَّعُوا أَمْرَهُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ ۖ كُلٌّ إِلَيْنَا رَاجِعُونَ

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2017, 05:13:14 PM »
Where does it say in the Quran that if we have to follow someone, the Quran must designate that person?

اتَّبِعُوا مَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ وَلَا تَتَّبِعُوا مِنْ دُونِهِ أَوْلِيَاءَ ۗ قَلِيلًا مَا تَذَكَّرُونَ

وَإِذَا لَمْ تَأْتِهِمْ بِآيَةٍ قَالُوا لَوْلَا اجْتَبَيْتَهَا ۚ قُلْ إِنَّمَا أَتَّبِعُ مَا يُوحَىٰ إِلَيَّ مِنْ رَبِّي ۚ هَٰذَا بَصَائِرُ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ وَهُدًى وَرَحْمَةٌ لِقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ

وَرَبُّكَ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيَخْتَارُ ۗ مَا كَانَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ ۚ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

قُلِ اللَّهُمَّ مَالِكَ الْمُلْكِ تُؤْتِي الْمُلْكَ مَنْ تَشَاءُ وَتَنْزِعُ الْمُلْكَ مِمَّنْ تَشَاءُ وَتُعِزُّ مَنْ تَشَاءُ وَتُذِلُّ مَنْ تَشَاءُ ۖ بِيَدِكَ الْخَيْرُ ۖ إِنَّكَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ

فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ ۗ إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُنْذِرٌ ۖ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ

وَمَا اخْتَلَفْتُمْ فِيهِ مِنْ شَيْءٍ فَحُكْمُهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكُمُ اللَّهُ رَبِّي عَلَيْهِ تَوَكَّلْتُ وَإِلَيْهِ أُنِيبُ

إِنَّ هَٰذِهِ أُمَّتُكُمْ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً وَأَنَا رَبُّكُمْ فَاعْبُدُونِ

وَتَقَطَّعُوا أَمْرَهُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ ۖ كُلٌّ إِلَيْنَا رَاجِعُونَ

The ayahs you've shown didn't answer the question except for this:

فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ

Thank you for affirming our believe that if we have dispute over something, follow  Allah i.e. the Quran and Rasul i.e. the sunnah.

If you diagree with that, please show us where in the Quran does Allah designate someone else to be followed?

Please remember. The key word here is "designate someone", as you yourself said.

Link

Re: True Leadership vs False leadership...
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2017, 05:22:33 PM »
Salam

Verse 42:23 with 25:57 implies the close kin of Mohammad ought to be taken a path to God and held on to with eyes, scent, taste, and ears of love, for it is the remembrance.

As well "so ask the family of the reminder" and many other verses.

If you are asking their names, then my belief is their names are found in Quran, but not explicitly. Rather implicitly, their names are alluded to in Quran. I don't mean just Ahlul-Kisaa but the wisdom of all the Imams names and even the order.  I believe the same is true of even the Shariah. I believe the number of Rakaas, sujood, Qiyams in each Salah and all Salah's together, has wisdom in Quran, and while none of us would of saw it in Quran without the manifestation in the Sunnah, the wisdom is found therein.

God could of explicitly mentioned all the details, but we would of settled to be lazy in searching to see the treasured topics therein.

If you are ever interested in any of that, then let me know. 





Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

 

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